Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:34 am

aroom wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:36 am
I was in the market for a wired IEM amp with built in limiter.

This is a part of the product line from Fischer Amps:
While you can be quite certain the original circuit has several ear protection circuits in place you can never know with cheap clones from China. Just saying as general.

There is one thing I've not be been able to find good information on. Do B do OEM production for other brands / retailers than brand names under the tribe tab?

Through there are a multiple reports from brands having moved production to China, then shortly after finding clones of their own product sold under other brand names.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Neo » Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:53 pm

Flounderguts wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:20 am
There ARE some lines they could step across that would turn me into a boycotter...for instance if they cloned MFOS or PAIA stuff without permission, as those are actively earning money for the (venerable) companies involved.
How about this then? I'm not claiming that this is a copy because apparently that's how someone on GS got hit with a lawsuit from Uli for ‘false, defamatory and libelous statement’ and ‘an effort to besmirch Music Group’s hard-earned reputation.’ Obviously any similarity between the two products is purely coincidental. This kind of antics has put me off buying anything with the B word on it.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by aroom » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:01 pm

I know it's problematic and I personally also avoid Berhinger's products in general. Also mostly because they are sometimes expensive for the overall quality.

But what about the X32? Isn't that a great product? They should go more in this direction, with innovation in mind instead of just bringing cheaper version of currently available product from other manufacturers.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 22tape » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:21 pm

Neo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:53 pm
This kind of antics has put me off buying anything with the B word on it.
While I agree, I still think you should buy Bacon :bacon:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Flounderguts » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:27 pm

Neo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:53 pm
Flounderguts wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:20 am
There ARE some lines they could step across that would turn me into a boycotter...for instance if they cloned MFOS or PAIA stuff without permission, as those are actively earning money for the (venerable) companies involved.
How about this then? I'm not claiming that this is a copy because apparently that's how someone on GS got hit with a lawsuit from Uli for ‘false, defamatory and libelous statement’ and ‘an effort to besmirch Music Group’s hard-earned reputation.’ Obviously any similarity between the two products is purely coincidental. This kind of antics has put me off buying anything with the B word on it.

Image
Not trying to defend Behringer here...but their cable tester isn't a copy of the Ebtech. It's IDENTICAL. Made in the same factory. That's not copying, it's purchasing from the same manufacturer!

There is another pattern that is similar, branded as Pyle, McGee, Hosa, Apex...and others...and BEHRINGER. The CT200.
Once you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

The real problem here is that everyone gets their stuff from a limited number of sources. When I was in college, I worked repairing fitness equipment. Even back then, in the early 90's, almost all of the fitness equipment (treadmills, ellipticals, stair machines, rowers) were made by just two companies (although Nordictrac and Erg made some of their own stuff). Choose a motor, belt length, bed, console...boom, your own brand.

Why would B reinvent the cable tester? Just buy the same one that works and rebrand it.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by GrantB » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:39 pm

So much bullshit in this thread. Those cable testers are clearly not identical, and Behringer is not rebranding anything made in the USA.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by orangehexagon » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:36 pm

GrantB wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:39 pm
So much bullshit in this thread. Those cable testers are clearly not identical, and Behringer is not rebranding anything made in the USA.
you're right, one is blue and one is silver

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:08 pm

orangehexagon wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:36 pm
GrantB wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:39 pm
So much bullshit in this thread. Those cable testers are clearly not identical, and Behringer is not rebranding anything made in the USA.
you're right, one is blue and one is silver
It says Made in USA on the blue one. So clearly someone is lying.

Products like this made me ask if Behringer do OEM for others. I doubt they buy from others since Uli had a longer speach on slutz back in 2012 where he told they had 30% better margings alone from they owning their own factory compared to anyone having to buy this service.

Never been involved with fabrication overseas, but I'm guessing there are shell companies that function as in-between with customer not knowing where product actually are assembled — and some times even not delivere from the same factory.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Dave Kendall » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:18 pm

I've been watching this thread with interest, as the actions/behaviour of a relative giant like Music tribe in our tiny part of the business/manufacturing world affects us all - however we feel about it. That ebtech/morley copy in the pics above and the acquisition of Peter Kirn's name* prior to the corksniffer stunt have decided me in not giving B any new business. (not that I've bought anything new from behringer anyway)

I rather fancied getting a Model D** to hack, but doubt if I'd do that now. If I ever did it would be a second-hand one, so as not to send any money B's way. The two incidents above are just too damn shameful.

It's a pity, as I think the neutron and Deepmind are interesting and good synths for what they do, and the ADA8200, despite a reported minor irritation with LEDs and bleed looks a useful product, and hopefully rectifies the PSU problems with the older ADA8000.

There are bound to be good people squirming in embarrassment within music tribe now that don't have any real power to do much other than keep their heads down, hope things get better and carry on.

* yes I know Uli gave the name back and apologised, but it was a nasty, bullying thing to do in the first place.
** I'm not too bothered about the effectively out-of-patent and long-out-of-production model D being cloned, as it appears to have had zero effect on Moog's sales of their model D re-issue - AFAIK they had no trouble selling every single one.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by GrantB » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:20 pm

StillNotWorking wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:08 pm

It says Made in USA on the blue one. So clearly someone is lying.
Nobody is lying. Behringer cloned a US made product, and the poster that claimed they were made in the same factory is full of shit.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:23 pm

GrantB wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:20 pm
StillNotWorking wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:08 pm

It says Made in USA on the blue one. So clearly someone is lying.
Nobody is lying. Behringer cloned a US made product, and the poster that claimed they were made in the same factory is full of shit.
Sources?
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Dave Kendall » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:25 pm

StillNotWorking wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:08 pm
It says Made in USA on the blue one. So clearly someone is lying.
AFAIK, the blue one came first, B then made the silver model, and tried to sue critics on gearslutz who pointed out its extreme similarity and lost the lawsuit.

From one of the ebtech design team

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2018 ... n-dollars/
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by GrantB » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:32 pm

3hands wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:23 pm
GrantB wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:20 pm
StillNotWorking wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:08 pm

It says Made in USA on the blue one. So clearly someone is lying.
Nobody is lying. Behringer cloned a US made product, and the poster that claimed they were made in the same factory is full of shit.
Sources?
Jesus christ, fucking google it. This is a well known one that started forum flame wars back in the early 2000s. Why would it be a questionable claim that Behringer clones shit? That is literally what this thread is about.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:32 pm

Dave Kendall wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:25 pm
StillNotWorking wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:08 pm
It says Made in USA on the blue one. So clearly someone is lying.
AFAIK, the blue one came first, B then made the silver model, and tried to sue critics on gearslutz who pointed out its extreme similarity and lost the lawsuit.
:mrgreen: Yes, it is isn't it? The way I rememebr the story it where a DSI employee that claimed this cable tester design where stolen as an example to show B is not only making product with similar function, but rather makes blueprint copies but with cheaper parts.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by mat1 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:52 pm

StillNotWorking wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:32 pm
The way I rememebr the story it where a DSI employee that claimed this cable tester design where stolen as an example to show B is not only making product with similar function, but rather makes blueprint copies but with cheaper parts.
So is the problem that he called it a clone or that he said the parts were inferior?

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by orangehexagon » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:25 pm

Fact: Morley products are manufactured here in the Chicagoland area (where I've lived my whole life).

Flounderguts made the baseless claim that B and Morley have the same manufacturing facilities.

Can we seriously cut it out with all the "feelings as facts" garbage. Let's be adults here.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by kons » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:59 am

That ebtech and beh. manufactured their cable tester in the same chinese factory is a baseless claim.
However.
That because the ebtech displays a 'made in USA' label negates the possibility that the design formative elements and components of the two cable testers were in fact manufactured in the same chinese factory is also a baseless assertion.

The underlying circuit board- determining the placement of jacks, led's, and switches is obviously identical down to the mm. The metal enclosures are markedly different in shape and form.
Thus.
I would hypothesize that Ebtech outsourced the manufacture of the circuit board to a chinese factory without the proper legal protections on the design of that circuit board. Which Ebtech would then assemble into an enclosure thus garnering the valued 'made in USA' label. Behringer then contracted that chinese factory to produce the same circuit board for their cable tester.

A salutory warning: Be careful about sending designs to china for manufacture without securing the necessary legal protections. The business moral and legal landscape in China means that you may not have the protections you are assumed to have in other industrialized countries.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:04 am

orangehexagon wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:25 pm
Fact: Morley products are manufactured here in the Chicagoland area (where I've lived my whole life).

Flounderguts made the baseless claim that B and Morley have the same manufacturing facilities.

Can we seriously cut it out with all the "feelings as facts" garbage. Let's be adults here.
EDIT : kons beat me to it

Would it be feasible to think that this misperception where the intention from B in the first place? I mean in today's market OEM production are so common and one poster here already implied these cable tester came from the same manufacturer.

There is that elephant in the room though. Made in USA (or whatever country) doesn't not always mean what most people think it does. For instance according to a youtube factory tour at EHX effect we learn pedals are assembled in US by friendly Mexicans using ready made PCB's and enclosures manufactured overseas.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:51 am

kons wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:59 am
A salutory warning: Be careful about sending designs to China for manufacture without securing the necessary legal protections. The business moral and legal landscape in China means that you may not have the protections you are assumed to have in other industrialized countries.
So true! Far too important a statement to live at the end of a post without emphasis.

Will add that even with "necessary legal protections" you're still taking a chance. Legal protections require a fight, and fights take time and money. The cost of a fight can quickly surpass the differential of having made the units in a place with greater protection and respect for IP.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by p_shoulder » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:19 am

StillNotWorking wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:04 am
There is that elephant in the room though. Made in USA (or whatever country) doesn't not always mean what most people think it does. For instance according to a youtube factory tour at EHX effect we learn pedals are assembled in US by friendly Mexicans using ready made PCB's and enclosures manufactured overseas.
In the early 2000s, contract manufacturing wasn't quite as prominent as it is today, to be honest, nor was there the massive reliance on China that we have today (a reliance which COVID-19 should make many businesses rightly question in the future.)

Even now, in an article on Morley (who owns Ebtech), it does seem that they appear to have some surface mount manufacturing equipment in their Glendale Heights manufacturing office -- from my perspective there's a reasonable chance that their circuit boards are assembled and tested in the USA, in-house. The PCB is probably outsourced somewhere, however, there are US PCB manufacturers (including Chicago area ones) so you really can't assume this was done in China, either. Of course, some parts are of Asian origin because there's no getting around that.

Maybe Ebtech did outsource the PCB to China and someone ripped them off there, but that's very speculative IMHO. However, the Behringer board is a pretty clear copy-paste sort of rip off, with some features that IMHO Behringer normally would not have included given what I would see its typical market being (how many people own TT cables unless you have a pro studio with a TT patch bay?). Behringer was *well known* for copying actually active products in the early to mid 2000s and the copying extended beyond a cable tester (BBE, dbx, Drawmer, Roland, Aphex, and Peavey have also sued Behringer for copying shenanigans).

However... they have not really done stuff *this* blatant in recent years (at least not that I'm aware of, though that Fischer Amps deal seems suspiciously like their old habits). Cloning obsolete circuits to make cheap analog synths that were long "out of print" is not really in the same sort of territory. Some of the dickish spirit seems to remain in that company, unfortunately, hence their somewhat dickish appropriations of open source designs and their trollish online behavior. But from my perspective there's nothing wrong with making a cheap Minimoog in itself.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by The Goob » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:41 am

p_shoulder wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:19 am
However... they have not really done stuff *this* blatant in recent years (at least not that I'm aware of, though that Fischer Amps deal seems suspiciously like their old habits). Cloning obsolete circuits to make cheap analog synths that were long "out of print" is not really in the same sort of territory.
Different layout, but...

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:03 am

The Goob wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:41 am
Different layout, but...
I know I've done that comparation based on Starky Carr's comment in one of his videos. But is that actually true?
I've not checked but I beleive Mother 32 have a true Moog designed oscilator? Crave make use of Bs own 3340 chip clone.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by The Goob » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:29 am

Is what actually true? I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.

The poster I responded to said he thought Behringer was only releasing replicas of long out-of-production synths. I was attempting to point out an example of them having a go at an existing product.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:27 am

The Goob wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:29 am
Is what actually true? I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.

The poster I responded to said he thought Behringer was only releasing replicas of long out-of-production synths. I was attempting to point out an example of them having a go at an existing product.
Yes I understand what you said, and I've said same myself.

But my point being if M32 have a true Moog designed oscillator a chip based 3340 synth using digital EG then makes comparing M32 with Crave more in line with the usual misleading marketing strategy more than a replica.

I know Starky made them sound very simliar, but one could argue that even a P12 could sound like a 303 with simliar threshold for error and differences :party: .
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by EPTC » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:29 pm

Neo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:53 pm
Image
Just to jump back a moment - This is the only Behringer item I've ever bought, except for a few Micromixers and their admittedly great USB U-Control interface. The cable tester was the only one I really felt like a bit of lame ass for purchasing, as I knew what I was doing to save money. I'd like to correct this within the year by buying a proper EBTech one.

Does anyone know who/what the Micromix is copying directly? Rhodes maybe? Perhaps I should start replacing them, too.

I think the USB interface is possibly unique. Every Behringer product I've gotten is less than $30 apiece, but this all adds up to around $200 I could have/should have spent elsewhere.

One thing I noticed about the cable tester that's amusing though: It doesn't ship with any instructions at all, just a blank blister pack. To know how to read out the LED codes, you have to download the EBTech manual online, all the more confirming this is a straight swipe. I've wondered if this suggests international copyright on something like printed instructions is more protected than circuit boards.

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