Deerhorn tuning

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jimmie
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Deerhorn tuning

Post by jimmie » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:32 pm

Finally I've got a new Deerhorn organ (with intersection). The oscillators don't go very low compare to my Plumbutter's deerhorn which at some knob setting gets near pulsing level. Anybody knows if this is by design or somehow to change so they go lower?

Also, intersection bananas are so :hmm: Grey outs seem to emits some voltage at some random timing (not so often) but yellow, orange, and reds, tried with FM(purple) or even AvDog and Coco, I can't see any noticeable effect.. I suspect if I'm missing something. By the way I don't understand the description for the number of jacks. I thought 3 modules * (up/down) = 6, what is "doubled" so 12 in total? :hmm:

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triangle
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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by triangle » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:31 am

Congrats!

My older original and newer Deerhorn organ both go much lower than my PB2.

I’ve noticed that I get into more frequent and s/h steppy voltages from the intersection outs when my Deerhorn all have something patched into their FM but also when I’m waving my hand over at least two of em. I don’t really know if the voltages being sampled are from the theta wave, or from the pitch of the two oscillators per Deerhorn but definitely notice when the two oscillators are not just static pitches the intersection outs are more likely to be s/h steppy. I think I first noticed this when quickly turning a pitch knob from full ccw to cw back and forth real quick while waving hand over two or more Deerhorn at once things really got going. The more animated my hand movements are seems to have an effect too, could be cause the sampling is triggered when pulses are generated at up/down direction changes.

About the 12 and this is just another guess, for each of the three Deerhorn there are 4 new voltages created in intersection. Soo, in relation to the Red Deerhorn could be when it’s upper light/pulse is on a sample is taken from Orange and also the Yellow Deerhorn. And when the Red Deerhorn lower light/pulse is on 2 different voltages are generated with relation to the Orange and Yellow Deerhorn again. Or maybe something else altogether is going on??

Don’t really know haha, but I think these could be the voltages at the 4 Red intersection jacks. And then similarly the 4 intersection Orange jacks are from Orange Deerhorn up/down sampling Red and Yellow, and etc

Maybe?

I also wonder if there is a reason/clue for how the jacks are oriented in the left and right intersection modules. i.e Red at the bottom on the left intersection but at the top of the right... :hmm:

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by jimmie » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:05 am

Thanks for your reply. Do you have any idea if I can somehow make my deerhorn going lower? All 3 modules are much higher at the base pitch knob fully CCW compare to my PB and this is a disappointment... Also antenna feels weak - when FM from orange wave, to get the orange's decent range I nearly have to touch my hand to the copper plate. But this is not calibration (by the way top screw now is a minus screw, bottom one is the same as PB), is it, because it's for response balance between up&down, not for tuning overral signal strength..

Peter's youtube vid for older Deerhorn :


Pretty simple patch it seems, but I can no where get such groaning sound (at 1'13). Can you get this kind of sound?

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triangle
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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by triangle » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:59 am

I am no pro. But, if you’ve brave and maybe already built any of the paper circuits and experimented with the harry cap values you know peter suggests that larger caps give a lower response from the oscillators. I don’t mean he has said this specifically about Deerhorn...just in general with all of the paper circuits. So, maybe think about and look into open it up and experiment with the hairy caps to see if you get the response you are looking for? I’ve built almost all of his paper circuits but never built the Deerhorn paper circuits but looking at the pics of the Deerhorn paper circuits the hairy caps have a different marking from the other caps. Should be easy to find looking at the pcb. Looks like little three legged snowflakes on the first Deerhorn paper circuit scrolling down the Deerhorn page.... You would likely want to use the same value cap for each of the oscillator’s in a single Deerhorn, I don’t believe he even always uses the same symbols to mean the same thing between different circuits, but when the hairy caps have a symbol like that which is similar for multiple oscillators within a circuit it usually suggests to use the same value for each oscillator, but free to experiment with what that value is with 104 being a lower response than 102 for ex. if you were to just tack caps onto the caps already there you won’t have too much work to undo etc. and that’s actually what peter suggested I try when I asked about doing so with my srine.

I imagine you already know this but just had the thought, you tried turning the fm knobs too for tuning? Even with nothing patched they have an effect on the pitch and maybe turning them fully cw or ccw will bring the pitch lower for you?

About antenna strength, I notice when I have the settings towards extremes or often just with something patched to FM jacks the antenna response will change and I’ll need to get my hand much closer to the antenna for response than normal....? I’ll see if making an adjustment with the top knob at this point makes a difference or I’ll just adjust my playing technique. Heck even just having cables going over/about the Antenna area can change the response I get. I guess it depends but many cl destinations have attenuverters and I find I’m often closer to noon than fully cw/ccw anyways. If I’m not getting the response I like I just try adjusting the destination attenuverter or by that point usually whatever it was I thought I was trying get the Deerhorn to do has already become something entirely different in all the best ways and I just go with it.

I’ve never had the need to adjust the inner screws yet, I just use that top knob when starting a session and sometime make further adjustments with it from there as needed. That knob is usually in the 11- 2 o’clock range depending on the time of day/weather etc.

Yeah those sounds at 1:13 are familiar but I’ve never really spent much time trying to recreate sounds other people make with cl gear, looks like he’s just patching theta waves and audio to fm.

Still though, I’d spend a LOT more time with the Deerhorn thinking and trying out new patches with itself and especially as a controller for other gear before ever thinking about making any internal changes. Peter says on the website that the antenna are tuned when they leave the shop so I take that to mean that any weird response I’m getting is to be expected.

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by jimmie » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:08 am

Thanks for your advice.

I just wonder why the lowest base pitch is different among units if yours go very low (in my case PB can go very low). I doubt he makes different tuning deliberately for every unit - most parts are SMD and not hand soldered...i guess? So, I thought perhaps there might be trimmer or something on the board to calibrate base pitch so opened it up but didn't see anything like that at least from the side of the board which is only accessible.

Most of the sound examples on the deerhorn website is very complex modulation and texture (not talking about obvious external sound), which is what I bought the deerhorn organ after! I can't get anywhere near like that with mine no matter how crazy patching I do (need to experiment more tho) - my theory is that the oscillator at least needs to go very low to make such drastic modulation. I should try by cross patching PB and deerhorn since my PB's deerhorn can go very low ;) I mean, I listened the sound example countless times and expected I could recreate somewhat closer to them - I mean, I expected the deerhorn could go really wild and crazy, not only soft ambient stuff, but more for ambitious noise like Peter's sound :bang:

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by andreasphh » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:38 am

Interesting! I also noticed that how deep one can go on the PB deerhorn seems to vary a lot.
My PB can’t go very low (unpatched) compared to some units on youtube.
So with PB there are some variations and this seems also be the case with deerhorn organ.

Maybe the idea is to make every unit unique in some way ;)

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by andreasphh » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:42 am

PS: Peter Blasser talks to Hainbach today! Maybe just ask him ;)


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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by k_bntzn » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:44 am

Pitch should go into lfo territory without problem. Sounds like you have some issues with it or you need to adjust the antenna response screws because they can go out of whack in shipping and or over time. How about a sound snippet from lowest pitch settings? Did you buy dirext from pete or patch point or used marked?

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by k_bntzn » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:46 am

I dont think that interview should be about troubleshooting and such problems.

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by andreasphh » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:49 am

Hence the ;)

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triangle
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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by triangle » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:08 am

jimmie wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:08 am
I mean, I expected the deerhorn could go really wild and crazy, not only soft ambient stuff, but more for ambitious noise like Peter's sound :bang:
Maybe it depends how/with what you’re patching it up. lots to discover with cross patching all three units trying all of the various outputs. also, an aux signal can also be used to good effect with the toggles up/down too, and that stereo signal is present at the separate white jacks too so maybe experiment with sending two different type signals from euro VCO etc into one of the Deerhorn aux and then patching it’s white outs to the other two Deerhorn etc. Lots to explore, have fun!

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by jimmie » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:16 am

Got my deerhorn straight from Peter. So, I'm still doing exhausting test and almost confirmed all intersection jacks do work somewhat. Some of them are easy to check, for instance left red jack of the red module is reasonably responsive. Hanging on my left hand on the red module and waving right hand on the orange module generates new cv at the pace of orange's LED alternates. But some jacks don't work by waving hands but works only when touching (tapping) copper. When involding 'up motion (upper LED)' to test is always difficult because often LED can't be the guide to judge behavior. I always wait for the lower LED completely off before waving hand but still it's not so obvious how things works. This seems to be very deeply related to antenna sensing signal, and subtle changes in antenna knob do affects as well. So, in practice controlling the timing of new cv generation is not very easy; better not to expect presice control rather expect randomish behavior - well that's the fun part of CL gear, in the first place, actually!

I got a response from Peter, he could tell me how to mod for lower pitch if I so wish. Guess it may be beyond what I can do with confidence so I'm still thinking what to do. Still, interesting if it's really that every unit has different character (by part right?) other than wood used for the device!

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by jimmie » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:31 am

triangle wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:08 am
jimmie wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:08 am
I mean, I expected the deerhorn could go really wild and crazy, not only soft ambient stuff, but more for ambitious noise like Peter's sound :bang:
Maybe it depends how/with what you’re patching it up. lots to discover with cross patching all three units trying all of the various outputs. also, an aux signal can also be used to good effect with the toggles up/down too, and that stereo signal is present at the separate white jacks too so maybe experiment with sending two different type signals from euro VCO etc into one of the Deerhorn aux and then patching it’s white outs to the other two Deerhorn etc. Lots to explore, have fun!
I've been using CL gears extensively for 3 years so I guess I have some idea about patching them. BTW for the video Peter said the sound was done only by deerhorn itself (apparently). It's only 3 bananas - 2 x orange to FM, one white to FM. It's not possible get sound like 1'15 - 1'20 on my device no matter what position of the every knob. Oscillator gotta go much lower... :omg:

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by jimmie » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:14 am

Took a quick video of my PB's deerhorn and Deerhorn organ's base pitch difference.
PB can go down to almost pulse level. highest pitch is not so different between two devices.


Also, Deerhorn organ's each module has slightly different lowest base pitch.

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by andreasphh » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:40 am

Interesting. Just fyi, in my case the PB is more like the rightmost Deerhorn. Will try the tuning thing but always thought this is just about antenna response, not pitch.

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triangle
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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by triangle » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:54 am

Right on, I was just suggesting that it’s only gonna get as weird as what/how you are modulate em. In his video he has all three cross modulating one another in different ways, and the pitch on all of the Deerhorn isn’t tuned very low either. Have fun, it’s a really great instrument

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by nrpn » Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:01 am

Did you ever request details from Peter on how to modify the range that you could share? I have the same questions you raise with my own Deerhorn - am curious what modification might be required to extend pitch range?
jimmie wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:16 am

I got a response from Peter, he could tell me how to mod for lower pitch if I so wish. Guess it may be beyond what I can do with confidence so I'm still thinking what to do. Still, interesting if it's really that every unit has different character (by part right?) other than wood used for the device!

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by jimmie » Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:50 am

I responded to him that I'd love to hear how to mod but didn't get reply since then, so I don't know how to do. I guess you'd have to add/replace some parts on the board and it's likely beyond my skill especially with my weak old eyes anyway. So if I had a spare money - not anytime soon, my financial situation is super tight - I might kindly ask him to mod mine at his asking cost.

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by rhampton » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:29 pm

Awesome Videos Jimmie. Thanks for sharing these. if i had to choose Ciat-Lonbarde Instrument i would probably get a Cocoquantus. Is that like a really popular gear? do most people go for that 1st? I see them pop up on Reverb dot Com occasionally.

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by rhampton » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:30 pm

jimmie wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:14 am
Took a quick video of my PB's deerhorn and Deerhorn organ's base pitch difference.
PB can go down to almost pulse level. highest pitch is not so different between two devices.


Also, Deerhorn organ's each module has slightly different lowest base pitch.
This was Awesome Jimmie

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by jimmie » Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:03 am

As far as I have been reading this forum, Cocoquantus seems to be most popular for the first CL gear. But Sidrax/Tetrax or Plumbutter is also the gateway to many people. Cocoquantus is, in a short word, a stereo low-fi delay/looper of Ciat Lonbarde taste. The modulation source is called quantus which is a very interesting and complex CV generator. Sidrax/Tetrax is more straight forward as an instrument, what you can expect from that is mostly you can see in various youtube videos. Plumbutter is a very unique instrument, what it does is mostly on Plumbutter's official webpage with sound examples (I think samples are by V1 which I may prefer to V2, tho). In my case I got the Plumbutter first. Every instrument is much more deeper than what you may get from impression of using a few months. Honeymoon period was over within half a year in my case and then after a year I really dug them and started to appreciate them deeper.

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by Setherian » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:20 am

Oh No... Im very sad to read that you guys also have the orange range problem , i just bought a Deerhorn and Im extremely frustrated with the weak orange out response, it’s absolutely not like in my PB2 where I can consistently wave up n down about 5 volts without any danger to touch the antennas.
I cannot even get 3 volts range with any deerhorn on my Triple Dee and To get even like just 2 volts I need to get so close to it that I always touch it by accident. This is terrible as I was thinking this would be my “ultimate controller” for all my modular, not only CL, but Serge and euro.. I know i can amplify and offset externaly but damn, i just wish they responded like the one in my PB2.

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by jimmie » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:35 pm

How is the range of pitch on yours? Mine's antenna response is weaker than my PB's deerhorn as well. I now wonder how V1 Deerhorn behaves..

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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by Palme » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:15 am

Hi, i have had the same problem with the pitch range that doesn’t go very low, BUT, I have solved it yesterday! I opened it up and poked around with some resistors and found a place where if you solder in a 1K ohm in parallel with an exsisting 10k resistor, the pitch will go much lower!
Mine has a much nicer frequency response now, I can provide a more detailed explanation on how to do it if you want :-)
Ps, if you open it, don’t turn the golden screws, only the other ones!
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Re: Deerhorn tuning

Post by jimmie » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:52 am

Wow that's a great news!!! Thank you so much for sharing it!
I'm not confident enough to execute the mod (with my only basic soldering skill and SMD circuit is so damn small on old eyes...) but I do want to try that! Improving the response, too?!? that motivate me more for the try...

So, yes, please give us more detailed info, I would so appreciate it!

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