Simple vs complex envelope

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NJlo
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Simple vs complex envelope

Post by NJlo » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:25 am

My rack is getting pretty good at ploinky, percussive things. There's a few modules with built in AR envelopes (bd9, dinky's taiko, plaits, basimilus) and for my other envelope needs I can either use Maths, or sometimes the built in envelopes of Expert Sleepers FH-2.

However, Maths has better uses than envelopes, and the FH-2 isn't really built for instant tweakability. I'm starting to feel the need for one or two simple ADSRs for melodic stuff.

I've been really digging the depth of my Mutable Instruments units though and though my current needs are simple.... it might be a good idea to find stuff that has more possibilities to explore :cloud:

Both Mutable Stages and Streams can do what I want (I think) and then some. Or I could just add the Doepfer A-140-2 Dual ADSR or two 2hp envelopes.

Any other modules to look at? And what would you choose between these?

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lisa
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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by lisa » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:36 am

Hard to read a thread like this and not mention Klavis Quadigy and Xaoc Zadar. Both can do really simple envelopes, both can do really complex envelopes. They do not take up a lot of space and are way more simple to use/hands on than one might think.
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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by ronnieb » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:44 am

+1 for Quadigy. The thing is an amazingly well designed workhorse. I believe Eric (Klavis) said it was designed with the intent to be simple and accessible and only more complex when you need it to be. In use, this becomes pretty obvious, it's a joy to use.
Tbh I was a little worried when I ordered it because it really can do a staggering amount of things but in reality I think I've looked at the manual once and that was just while I was waiting for it to arrive and it's opened up loads of cool ideas and influenced my patching it a really nice way.

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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by NJlo » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:55 am

Those both look great, thanks! Good day to spend watching youtube reviews :)

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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by Carrousel » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:03 am

Personally I’ve found doepfer’s ADSRs to have a very ‘clunky’ and unmusical response to them, but YMMV. I’ve really enjoyed using the Intellijel dual ADSRs, not least because they have built in VCAs to control their output level. Having said that, I have recently sold them and switched back to just using AD/AR envelopes. As a side note I don’t think streams is really what you’re looking for. It’s more like an AD envelope attached to a VCA (I think).
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Whatisvalis
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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by Whatisvalis » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:19 am

I'm also looking for simple performance ADSR env for melodic duties to free up Falistri. The A 140 and System X are appealing. Interesting to read that Quadigy and Zadar can be hands on - I'm wary of complex, layered modules like - just a personal preference.

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mdoudoroff
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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by mdoudoroff » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:39 am

Whatisvalis wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:19 am
I'm also looking for simple performance ADSR env for melodic duties to free up Falistri. The A 140 and System X are appealing. Interesting to read that Quadigy and Zadar can be hands on - I'm wary of complex, layered modules like - just a personal preference.
The good ol’ WMD/SSF ADSRVCA is utterly straightforward, with passable ergonomics and the handy built-in VCA.

It’s big, but that SoundForce Dual ADSR looks like a pleasure to use.

Instruo’s ADSR is also nice and comes with maximum blinkenlights, although you don’t seem interested in CV control.

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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by miles_macquarrie » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:18 am

lisa wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:36 am
Hard to read a thread like this and not mention Klavis Quadigy and Xaoc Zadar. Both can do really simple envelopes, both can do really complex envelopes. They do not take up a lot of space and are way more simple to use/hands on than one might think.
I'm going to add one of these two modules at some point, but I have been really torn on which one to get.
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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by diggida » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:37 am

If you do decide on a Doepfer A-140-2, hit me up, I have one available.

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Whatisvalis
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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by Whatisvalis » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:50 am

mdoudoroff wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:39 am
Whatisvalis wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:19 am
I'm also looking for simple performance ADSR env for melodic duties to free up Falistri. The A 140 and System X are appealing. Interesting to read that Quadigy and Zadar can be hands on - I'm wary of complex, layered modules like - just a personal preference.
The good ol’ WMD/SSF ADSRVCA is utterly straightforward, with passable ergonomics and the handy built-in VCA.

It’s big, but that SoundForce Dual ADSR looks like a pleasure to use.

Instruo’s ADSR is also nice and comes with maximum blinkenlights, although you don’t seem interested in CV control.
I’m always interested in CV - just not menu diving. I have a bunch of Instruo, so their ASDR caught my eye. How do you find wiggling the sliders v pots?

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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by Buyakasoundman » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:58 am

WMD Javelin has a nice feature set. Quadrax is crazy useful too; the right blend of ease of use and multifunction complexity.

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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by mdoudoroff » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:37 pm

Whatisvalis wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:50 am
I’m always interested in CV - just not menu diving. I have a bunch of Instruo, so their ASDR caught my eye. How do you find wiggling the sliders v pots?
I don’t have a Ceis, myself, but my friend has one and I’ve played with it a little. It’s definitely tightly-packed (and feature packed). The faders are a bit tighter spaced than on my Quadigy. You can’t just grab these like a knob, and certainly not like the faders on the Arp 2600. Fader throw is ok, although you can’t scale the throw on the Ceis like you can with Quadigy, so if you want nuance, you have to bring that with fine motor skills.

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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by transistorresistor » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:22 pm

Whatisvalis wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:19 am
I'm also looking for simple performance ADSR env for melodic duties to free up Falistri. The A 140 and System X are appealing. Interesting to read that Quadigy and Zadar can be hands on - I'm wary of complex, layered modules like - just a personal preference.
I detest menus and was looking for a adsr that was tweakable, but the power of the zadar was really hard to argue w for drones so I figured Id get it and tolerate it and if it was abysmal to work w just sell it and its my most used adsr now. Super tweakable, super easy, theres a knob per function more or less and you dont have to "learn" it in order to be using the thing, Ive never had to look at the manual since I insalled it... The reallllllly nice thing about it though, that isnt much mentioned is you can adjust the output level so you dont need to use an attenuator which is crazy convenient. Its just a great module that provides 4 envelopes mostly on the surface, then beyond that it does some crazy powerful shit. I detest menu's and absolutely love this module, its really really easy to use.

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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by NJlo » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:01 pm

Quadigy seems like what I thought I needed, Zadar seems like what I didn't know I needed yet!

Instant tweakability seems a bit better on Quadigy, am I right in thinking that?

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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by goldi » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:47 pm

I tried a Zadar and sold all my envelopes including maths, funtion etc. and ordered a 2nd Zadar. Brings new life to anything, even plucky LPG's.

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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by mdoudoroff » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:55 pm

NJlo wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:01 pm
Quadigy seems like what I thought I needed, Zadar seems like what I didn't know I needed yet!

Instant tweakability seems a bit better on Quadigy, am I right in thinking that?
IMO, they’re similar in the tweakability. Zadar may even be a little quicker because of the endless encoders and there being fewer parameters to begin with. Quadigy also has parameter pickup, so that’s an extra step: finding the current value on the slider before you can change it. On the other hand, Quadigy has the mod matrix and a very nice performance knob—you have to configure those things, but once you do, it’s quite “playable”. I wish XAOC had gone with a mod matrix for ZADAR instead of siloing each CV input.
goldi wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:47 pm
I tried a Zadar and sold all my envelopes including maths, funtion etc. and ordered a 2nd Zadar. Brings new life to anything, even plucky LPG's.
That’s crazy, but more power to you.

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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by bhenry1790 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:39 pm

goldi wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:47 pm
I tried a Zadar and sold all my envelopes including maths, funtion etc. and ordered a 2nd Zadar. Brings new life to anything, even plucky LPG's.
This guy Zadars! I do love Zadar and recommend it frequently. Never even thought about two... Now I'm imagining the wild-ass modulations warping one Zadar with the other.

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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by gringostar » Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:20 am

Stages is brilliant but I find I'm mostly using it to do things like turning triggers into gates of varying lengths, gate delay, sequencing, and sequential switching rather than using it for envelopes.

OTOH I'm really enjoying using the Kermit MKIII's A&B channels in envelope mode, especially while also using channels C&D in LFO mode to cross modulate the envelope shape control since I can still use those channel outputs to modulate even more things in my rack.

Between my Double Andore MKI and the two full channels of Kermit MKIII I find I have all the simple or complex envelopes I need.

NJlo
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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by NJlo » Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:54 pm

You know what... I'm just gonna order Stages, Zadar AND Quadigy. And hopefully I'll like one of them so much more than the others that I'll send two back. Or one. Or.. Well, you all know how this works.

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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by bhenry1790 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:05 pm

NJlo wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:54 pm
You know what... I'm just gonna order Stages, Zadar AND Quadigy. And hopefully I'll like one of them so much more than the others that I'll send two back. Or one. Or.. Well, you all know how this works.
Let us know your experiences. Came here to recommend Zadar, leaving taking a close look at Quadigy and Kermit.

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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by forrest » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:08 pm

The VIA META can do some pretty interesting enveloping duties, looping/triggered, audio rate, and doubles as a cool wavetable voice. Not nearly as "obvious" as the Zadar though as to what it's doing. An oscilloscope helps.

NJlo
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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by NJlo » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:26 pm

bhenry1790 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:05 pm
NJlo wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:54 pm
You know what... I'm just gonna order Stages, Zadar AND Quadigy. And hopefully I'll like one of them so much more than the others that I'll send two back. Or one. Or.. Well, you all know how this works.
Let us know your experiences. Came here to recommend Zadar, leaving taking a close look at Quadigy and Kermit.
I will!

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Re: Simple vs complex envelope

Post by arcanius » Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:55 am

+1 for zadar
its all a party !

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