Jumbling Formats (re-post)

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exeterdown
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Jumbling Formats (re-post)

Post by exeterdown » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:40 am

Posted this on the Eurorack page and got no love.

So, as a noob it's hard to find simple explanations of some simple modular terms on the net. "Mult" is one of them. I'm guessing it's short for multiple, and if I could play with one am sure I would figure it out in no time but...

What is a mult exactly?

Also, I've been interested in something to help my main Buchla system talk to some Eurorack stuff and possibly my Moog and Frostwave gear. The Format Jumbler looks like exactly what I'd want.

Is there an alternative to the Format Jumbler?

Also is there anything I need to keep in mind when patching between Eurorack and Buchla, Moog or Frostwave?

I understand they use a different scale, but if I was just looking to do things like send audio signals to external filters and maybe control them with the odd LFO or something do I really need to worry about things such as volts per octave?

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Re: Jumbling Formats (re-post)

Post by nrdvrgr » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:56 am

>What is a mult exactly?

See it as a cablesplitter... patch a cable into it and you get the same thing out of more jacks. Thats the easiest way to put it.

>Is there an alternative to the Format Jumbler?

If you are referring to the Make Noise FJ I think no (in euro). Unless you go DIY. There was recently quite sexy "jumbling boxes" in the B/S/T made by... someone on the forum... can´t remember who.

>Also is there anything I need to keep in mind when patching between Eurorack and Buchla, Moog or Frostwave?

Buchla and Moog tracks different (1 v/oct vs 1.2 v/oct) so if you want perfectly tuned interaction you will have problems. Other than that, no problems as long as they are all grounded together.
There was something in a thread here about some pulses from the 281e being a bit to harsh for some euromodules, but that is the only word of precaution I have heard about.. maybe the experts can chime in here.

I have "Jumbled" a lot back and forth between euro and Buchla without any issues whatsoever.
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Re: Jumbling Formats (re-post)

Post by 7thDanSound » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:58 am

exeterdown wrote:I understand they use a different scale, but if I was just looking to do things like send audio signals to external filters and maybe control them with the odd LFO or something do I really need to worry about things such as volts per octave?
No

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Post by theboddy » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:28 am

The Format Jumbler works well - I use it between my Serge system and the rest of my gear - Eurorack / Roland 100M / Voyager & Minimoog / VCS3 with no problems. It's even got a grounding socket on it for the Serge PSU which is handy.

Only thing to remember is both this and most multi's are passive - i.e., not powered so if you split a signal to multiple destinations through one of these you will get a voltage drop. This is really only critical for pitched work. If that is an issue you can get a buffered i.e., powered multi to handle such voltage critical tasks.

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Post by exeterdown » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:28 am

That's awesome, thanks.

About the grounding though, how would I do it?
I noticed a ground jack on the Format Jumbler but I wasn't sure what to plug into it.

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Post by theboddy » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:35 am

Well on the Serge there's a grounding socket on the PSU so you just take a banana cable from there and stick the other end in the special grounding socket on the Format Jumbler and then forget about it.

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Post by exeterdown » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:14 am

If I don't have a ground on my Buchla, Moog or Frostwave can I do any damage by not grounding it or is it more to stop hum?

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Post by PhineasFreak » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:40 am

Am collecting my first Buchla bits today off RichyHo - along with a diy euro module to do grounding and conversion of banana to jacks.

i've got a kenton pro2000 mkII which can cope with 1v/oct, 1.2v/oct and hz/oct - but i'll need to convert the +5v > -5v range of most euro to 0v > +10v of buchla:

i understand synovatron's cv-tools module may be ideal for this - anyone tried it?
Last edited by PhineasFreak on Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by rattlework » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:00 am

You may want to check out this post for 1/8" to banana conversion:
viewtopic.php?p=697699&highlight=#697699

Also what about the Doepfer a129-3 or a183-2 to convert cv from euro to Buchla.

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Re: Jumbling Formats (re-post)

Post by rydan » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:09 am

exeterdown wrote:I understand they use a different scale, but if I was just looking to do things like send audio signals to external filters and maybe control them with the odd LFO or something do I really need to worry about things such as volts per octave?
If you plan to modulate something on the buchla with LFO:s from the euro/moog world, you might not get the result you think, since Buchla is positive voltage only while euro/moog LFO:s generally are bipolar.

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Re: Jumbling Formats (re-post)

Post by cbm » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:11 pm

exeterdown wrote:What is a mult exactly?
In its most simple form, a mult is a bunch of jacks that are connected together. Sometimes you see buffered mults, or multis that have different kinds of jacks (the Eardrill mult includes a couple kinds of jacks)

Also is there anything I need to keep in mind when patching between Eurorack and Buchla, Moog or Frostwave?
The systems need to be grounded together, if only by an audio cable between systems (the shield of the audio cable is your ground in this case.)
I understand they use a different scale, but if I was just looking to do things like send audio signals to external filters and maybe control them with the odd LFO or something do I really need to worry about things such as volts per octave?
The Buchla world has audio levels at roughly line level, while most modular formats have hotter audio, so there might be some issues there.

The Buchla world has unipolar control voltages in the range of 0-10 v. There aren't agreed upon ranges in the rest of the world, but Euro seems to be 0-5 v, or -5 to 5v. In general it's very hard for a system with +/- 12 volt power supplies to deal with a 10 v control range. You probably won't blow anything up, though.
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Post by exeterdown » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:46 am

Thanks everyone, really great answers.

I'm mainly looking at audio processing (really looking forward to a Cwejman MMF-1 and waiting for the latest hype surrounding CV granular to settle before making a choice [even though I think it'll be hard to top the MakeNoise Phonogene]) but was really bummed to find out the Kilpatrick K4816 Pattern Generator is no longer available in Buchla format.

rattlework wrote:You may want to check out this post for 1/8" to banana conversion:
viewtopic.php?p=697699&highlight=#697699
I would prefer to keep it in the system(s) if possible.
rattlework wrote: Also what about the Doepfer a129-3 or a183-2 to convert cv from euro to Buchla.
If I can't simply use a mult to get a Eurorack K4816 to sequence my Buchla I take it because both Eurorack and Buchla have a 10v range by using the Doepfer 183-2 I could offset the incoming or outgoing signal by 5v and they would be compatible?

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Post by PhineasFreak » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:21 am

exeterdown wrote:If I can't simply use a mult to get a Eurorack K4816 to sequence my Buchla I take it because both Eurorack and Buchla have a 10v range by using the Doepfer 183-2 I could offset the incoming or outgoing signal by 5v and they would be compatible?
does anyone know if feeding +10v from buchla into a eurorack module designed for only +5v will result in clipping or destruction?

i note doepfer's website states:
doepfer wrote:Control voltages, as produced by modulation sources like the LFO and ADSR, are from -2.5 V to +2.5 V (5 VSS) for the LFO, and from 0 V to +8 V for the ADSR.These definitions of the various signals, and the distinctions between them - sound sources and modulation sources - are right in principle, but a modular system like the A-100 often makes a mockery of them. In a modular set-up, all of the modules produce voltages, and can be used as control voltages or triggers, thus blurring the distinction between the various types.
For example, the output from an LFO can be used as an audio signal, as a control voltage for a VCF or VCA, or as a trigger signals for a sequence.
It’s just about true to say that anything can be modulated by anything else, so that a modular system gives the musician extraordinary flexibility and individuality.
implying all modules can take +8v.

i want to use my Cwejman ATT-4 with some Buchla cv's - do i brave feeding it +10v from Buchla?

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Post by exeterdown » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:53 am

Yes but only so I don't have to risk it. :nana:

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Post by PhineasFreak » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:20 am

Cwejman answered my email within about 10s!

they say happily feed the ATT-4 10v from Buchla - it'll have no problems and so i will keep mine for knocking +10v cv's down to euro levels! yay!

waiting on response from Synovatron as to suitability of cv tools module to scale up voltages...

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Post by rattlework » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:54 am

If I can't simply use a mult to get a Eurorack K4816 to sequence my Buchla I take it because both Eurorack and Buchla have a 10v range by using the Doepfer 183-2 I could offset the incoming or outgoing signal by 5v and they would be compatible?
If you are looking for perfect pitch translation from euro to buchla it may be tricky. Something like the Z8000 may work fine because it outputs up to +10v but other modules with narrower ranges and bipolar outputs may not work as well. I would try to get info for kilpatrick maybe he has a good solution.

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Post by franzschuier » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:04 am

exeterdown wrote:find out the Kilpatrick K4816 Pattern Generator is no longer available in Buchla format.
I think chrisso is selling one. Wanted to buy... But no room in the case.

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Post by PhineasFreak » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:23 pm

I have been chatting with Tony from Synovatron - instead of getting four doepfer 183-2's and modding them or modding a cv-tools, he's gonna look into making me a diy 4 channel euro/buchla interface. it'll convert euro 3.5mm jack +/-5v cv's to banana 0-10v cv's, and the other direction too, along with a ground connection if necessary, all correctly colour coded sockets to match the buchla, for probably around the cost of a couple of the doepfer modules.

i'l post further updates when a design is finalised...

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Post by exeterdown » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:41 pm

Wow, I'm sure that would go down a treat around here.
Can I request that it be made in Eurorack format though?
Buchla real estate is a lot more expensive.

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Post by PhineasFreak » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:22 am

oh - sorry for confusion - it will be a euro module!

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Post by synthomaniac » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:04 pm

As PhineasFreak has already announced I have been working on a Euro to Buchla CV translator module for him. Well it's done and I have already received a commission to make a second for another Muffwiggler. As you can see from the photos below it's a bit labour intensive but an effective way of implementing one-off (ok two-off) modules. If I get enough interest I'll wil do a short production run with a dedicated PCB design and a screen printed front panel. Please let me know if you're interested; the more interest the cheaper it will be.

I have used one of my DIY Prototyping kits - an A-100 bus and Cliff jack compatible breadboard (part no. DIY3 - a new design) and an 8HP front panel (part no. 8HPJ - 5 x 8.2mm holes for jacks and 5 x 7mm holes for pots); I had to open out one 7mm hole and make a new hole for this project.

It has four Euro to Buchla channels (converts ±5V to 0-10V) and one Buchla to Euro channel (converts 0-10V to ±5V) plus a ground reference connector.

Here are a few pics:-

Image
Image
Image
Image

Here shown with DIY3 prototyping boards.
Image

Hope you like - this one will be winging its way to PhineasFreak in a day or so.

If anyone is interested in DIY prototyping kits I will be updating all the details on my blog over the weekend http://synovatron.blogspot.co.uk/p/products.html

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Post by Votek_Mendo » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:17 pm

cool! just the location of the ground that i 'm too sure. :hmm:

:tu:

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Post by synthomaniac » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:36 am

A fair comment. The ground could go below the lower channel sockets but it would be very close to them to avoid fouling the lower rail. A productionised version would not be constrained by the DIY pcb/front panel socket/hole positions and would allow the five channels to be moved up and the ground to be placed neatly below. That's good feedback thanks!
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Post by PhineasFreak » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:03 am

ooooh! i cant wait - i'll be able to use stuff like bananlogue vcs to control morph on 259e! (something i been wanting to do since i got hold of the buchla...) :banana:

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Re: Jumbling Formats (re-post)

Post by legionhwp » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:50 am

MOTM makes a 5U panel one. I also make and sell custom 200e multiformat patch and attenuator panels via DAEDSound.com. Either as 200e panels or standalone boxes.

You can see one on the left in my blog post here: http://synthandi.blogspot.com/2011/09/phase-me.html
(there is a tinijack multiple in the middle row :))
exeterdown wrote: Is there an alternative to the Format Jumbler?
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