440

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Luka
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440

Post by Luka » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:51 am

wow MOTM 440 is a beast
machinedrum sounds alien thought it

this is my first production line module
have to say that i think these pots (vishay) are not really to my liking , too loose, but otherwise wow

cant decide whether to rip this from it's panel and put behind my diy system panels or to start a motm rig too :)

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BananaPlug
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Post by BananaPlug » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:09 am

It's possible (just) to fit a 440 behind a frac panel.

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Post by Fnord » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:03 am

Or, if you've got a spare 5u (and have your other stuff mounted), they use the same power supplies. Not too hard to add a row of MOTM format. Lot of tasty filters from MOTM.
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JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:18 am

Start a MOTM rack, they RAWKS! :love: :love: :love:

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Post by consumed » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:49 pm

the 440 was one of my first filters and i have to say still my favorite LPF.

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essex sound lab
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Post by essex sound lab » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:14 pm

I bought one as part of my "starter" 5U system several years ago and it's still one of my favorites too.

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Post by doctorvague » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:20 pm

consumed wrote:the 440 was one of my first filters and i have to say still my favorite LPF.
Same here, and I agree about the pots. The shafts are kinda wiggly and the pot sweep doesn't have quite enough resistance to it for my taste - that's splitting hairs, but I do like Roger's pots better. Great panel options on the 440 too, like the CV input mixer with an inverter on ch1 - I use that ALL the time. VC res is always a plus. 3 input/3 knob audio mixer=awesome. Saves a whole 'nother mixer module. It definitely has authority when you put it in a patch with other filters going. I would describe it as a sharp, cutting sound vs other filters I guess. Never played a Mankato. I'm Mankato-curious.

3 thumbs up!
:tu: :tu: :tu:

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Post by paults » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:23 pm

The pots (on all my current 2U wide modules) are from 2 different suppliers.

a) the left column (looking from the front) will be the blue Bourns conductive plastic pots. The 'feel' will be lighter but that is for a very specific reason: these pots are rated over 100,000 rotations. Detailed info here:

http://www.bourns.com/PDFs/90sers.pdf

I used to design industrial controls (like for factories and commercial baking ovens) and we had these pots that were *daily* hit with high-pressure water/steam and had over *20 years* of life wihout failure. This is a VERY rugged pot. It is also easy to solder (remember, I was in the kit business) and it is easy to find from distribution. The cost is OK, not great.

b) the pots on the right column (soldered to the pc board) are from Spectrol/Vishay. The Spectrol pots are black, the Vishay ones are white. Most of these are made from a ceramic/carbon mixture called 'cermet', which is highly tempreature stable. They are 'stiffer' than the Bourns pots. I chose these because they were easy to put on the pc board (no wires!) and also came in log taper (for audio inputs, as noted I like 'free' mixers in my modules).

c) once I use up all my stock of Vishay pots, I am going to use 100% (in both locations) a new pot from BI (formerly Beckman Industries, who 'invented' the multi-turn pot in the 1940s). These pots are conductive plastic, but have metal shafts (no 'wiggle') and the 'smoothness' is in-between the Bourns and Vishay. They have a *1 million* rotational life so that is a plus. These pots will ship first on the Euro rack modules, although I have shipped maybe 4 MOTM-190s with them as a trial and no one noticed :bananaguitar:

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Post by Luka » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:31 pm

JohnLRice wrote:Start a MOTM rack, they RAWKS! :love: :love: :love:
i have been eyeing off every 5U model in the buy/sell section for the last 2 weeks so perhaps hehe

i guess i meant the spectrol pots then paul not the vishay. no real beef. i stil think i might rip this off the panel and jam it behind my style 5U panels with another module

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Post by dude » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:53 pm

doctorvague wrote:
consumed wrote:the 440 was one of my first filters and i have to say still my favorite LPF.
Never played a Mankato. I'm Mankato-curious.

:tu: :tu: :tu:
you should be mankato curious! i have never played a 440 so i cannot compare though i know about those damn loosey pots. they feel like shit! the mankato sounds huge. i don't use it for filtering too much as i have an oakley diode superladder and a euro polivoks both of which i enjoy immensely but the mank is a great quadrature vco/lfo it needs to be played with to be believed. check one out! you will not be sorry. and the knobs FEEL GREAT!

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Post by essex sound lab » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:21 pm

[quote="dude]
the mankato sounds huge. i don't use it for filtering too much as i have an oakley diode superladder and a euro polivoks both of which i enjoy immensely but the mank is a great quadrature vco/lfo it needs to be played with to be believed. check one out! you will not be sorry. and the knobs FEEL GREAT![/quote]

Whose Mankato do you have?

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Post by paults » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:22 pm

Errr...if you "never played one" then how do you know what they "feel like [shit]"?

Sigh..........

:deadbanana: :soapbox: :deadbanana:

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Post by dude » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:28 pm

paults wrote:Errr...if you "never played one" then how do you know what they "feel like [shit]"?


Sigh..........

:deadbanana: :soapbox: :deadbanana:
because i have other modules which i believe use similar pots. the feel is far too light to my taste. now they may last longer but i am just a 'feel' person i guess.

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Post by dude » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:29 pm

essex sound lab wrote:[quote="dude]
the mankato sounds huge. i don't use it for filtering too much as i have an oakley diode superladder and a euro polivoks both of which i enjoy immensely but the mank is a great quadrature vco/lfo it needs to be played with to be believed. check one out! you will not be sorry. and the knobs FEEL GREAT!
Whose Mankato do you have?[/quote]

i have the stg one!

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Post by Funky40 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:23 pm

paults wrote:
c) once I use up all my stock of Vishay pots, I am going to use 100% (in both locations) a new pot from BI (formerly Beckman Industries, who 'invented' the multi-turn pot in the 1940s). These pots are conductive plastic, but have metal shafts (no 'wiggle') and the 'smoothness' is in-between the Bourns and Vishay. They have a *1 million* rotational life so that is a plus. These pots will ship first on the Euro rack modules, although I have shipped maybe 4 MOTM-190s with them as a trial and no one noticed :bananaguitar:
the bi tec pots are the best feeeling pots i ever had, Just perfect !!!
very interesting to know that they also have long livetime.
and they are way cheaper as the spectrols.
europeans: you get them from crisp/oakley

440:
just have two panels ready to drill, and two populated Boards.
very curious about


mahakto:
as others: i use it as VC-LFO/VCO, never as a filter.( patched in every single patch !!! )
my opinion after very rare use as filter: it sounds very clean. it's the contrary of a character Pig ;)
attenuators on the CV inputs are IMO a MUST.

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Post by neandrewthal » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:57 pm

When I fired up my mankato it sounded awesome for the first 10 minutes before it became a permament quadrature LFO/kick drum :doh:
Initiate the sequence, create catastrophe.

SubG

Post by SubG » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:14 am

paults wrote:The pots (on all my current 2U wide modules) are from 2 different suppliers.

a) the left column (looking from the front) will be the blue Bourns conductive plastic pots. The 'feel' will be lighter but that is for a very specific reason: these pots are rated over 100,000 rotations. Detailed info here:

http://www.bourns.com/PDFs/90sers.pdf

I used to design industrial controls (like for factories and commercial baking ovens) and we had these pots that were *daily* hit with high-pressure water/steam and had over *20 years* of life wihout failure. This is a VERY rugged pot. It is also easy to solder (remember, I was in the kit business) and it is easy to find from distribution. The cost is OK, not great.

b) the pots on the right column (soldered to the pc board) are from Spectrol/Vishay. The Spectrol pots are black, the Vishay ones are white. Most of these are made from a ceramic/carbon mixture called 'cermet', which is highly tempreature stable. They are 'stiffer' than the Bourns pots. I chose these because they were easy to put on the pc board (no wires!) and also came in log taper (for audio inputs, as noted I like 'free' mixers in my modules).

c) once I use up all my stock of Vishay pots, I am going to use 100% (in both locations) a new pot from BI (formerly Beckman Industries, who 'invented' the multi-turn pot in the 1940s). These pots are conductive plastic, but have metal shafts (no 'wiggle') and the 'smoothness' is in-between the Bourns and Vishay. They have a *1 million* rotational life so that is a plus. These pots will ship first on the Euro rack modules, although I have shipped maybe 4 MOTM-190s with them as a trial and no one noticed :bananaguitar:
bourns our sfernice are for sure the best, the (black plastic)spectrols are plain crap because the housing is glued,when u push to hard on the shaft,or if there is to much pull force on the angle when the are soldered on the pcb when u fix them on the frontpanel ,they housing comes appart,i have plenty of faulty pots atm on 2 of your ULTRA VCO modulles.

The BI's are very nice pots and are realy cheap,the only problem is that u have to be carefull when tighten the nut because otherwise the shaft will not turn perfect anymore (there is less space around the shaft,thats why they don't wiggle)

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Post by paults » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:24 am

a) The Sfernice (white) pots are still available, they just cost too much ($15 *EACH* for 1-10pcs, in 1,000pcs they are still $7).

b) stop doing pushups on the modular

c) isn't it ironic that after 8 years of EE school, 9 patents and 33 years of experience designing analog circuitry the #1 pain to deal with are pots, jack, knobs and switches.....sigh..... :doh:

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Post by doctorvague » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:30 am

paults wrote:a) The Sfernice (white) pots are still available, they just cost too much ($15 *EACH* for 1-10pcs, in 1,000pcs they are still $7).

b) stop doing pushups on the modular

c) isn't it ironic that after 8 years of EE school, 9 patents and 33 years of experience designing analog circuitry the #1 pain to deal with are pots, jack, knobs and switches.....sigh..... :doh:
You kind of missed all the handstands and somersaults we're doing over the 440, Paul. I never see the 440 mentioned without a rave or 2 or 3 or 4.
I'm 98% happy with it myself, the pots aren't a dealbreaker - it's awesome. Take some credit, dude!:yay:

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Post by dude » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:56 pm

doctorvague wrote:
paults wrote:a) The Sfernice (white) pots are still available, they just cost too much ($15 *EACH* for 1-10pcs, in 1,000pcs they are still $7).

b) stop doing pushups on the modular

c) isn't it ironic that after 8 years of EE school, 9 patents and 33 years of experience designing analog circuitry the #1 pain to deal with are pots, jack, knobs and switches.....sigh..... :doh:
You kind of missed all the handstands and somersaults we're doing over the 440, Paul. I never see the 440 mentioned without a rave or 2 or 3 or 4.
I'm 98% happy with it myself, the pots aren't a dealbreaker - it's awesome. Take some credit, dude!:yay:
yeah, just cause i don't like the pot doesn't mean i don't LOVE the modules!!! sorry to put a negative spin on a wonderful sounding thing.

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Post by sduck » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:05 pm

It's odd - in the years that I've been using my 440, I've never once noticed that the feel of the knobs is a bit loose.

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Post by synthetic » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:29 pm

Yeah, it's my go to filter. I also have the 490 (Moog modular) and 420 (Korg MS-20) so that's saying a lot! Still want the 480 (CS80) and 4xx (Oberheim SEM) one of these days.

SubG

Post by SubG » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:31 pm

paults wrote:a) The Sfernice (white) pots are still available, they just cost too much ($15 *EACH* for 1-10pcs, in 1,000pcs they are still $7).

b) stop doing pushups on the modular

c) isn't it ironic that after 8 years of EE school, 9 patents and 33 years of experience designing analog circuitry the #1 pain to deal with are pots, jack, knobs and switches.....sigh..... :doh:
yes,and is mindblowing how the prices of good pots has raised so much since 15 years

yes i know the sfernice pot prices kills now

(btw just as info the focusrite hi end( now vintage) blue series uses also sfernice pots)

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Post by paults » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:50 pm

Where I first saw Sfernice pots being used:

http://www.soundpure.com/showProduct.do?id=257

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:58 pm

I think both pot types have advantages/disadvantages.

While I love to get my fingers around a good smooth stiff knob as much as the next guy (hehehe, yes, I phrased it that way on purpose ;-) there are disadvantages too.

For general usage and sensitive/tiny adjustments (maybe 75% of the time) I perfer pots that have a smooth and slightly resistive (no pun intended) feel. But when easy or fast movements are required, that smooth sluggish movement can get in the way.

With pots that move freely, you could snake a large rubber band around several knobs at once and control them all with one hand. (yes, not something most people would do often and not something I've tried myself . . .yet! :tu: )

Also, fast moving pots can be . . . moved fast so you can rapidly modulate something. Maybe not the best example but in this video I was often moving the frequency pot on my MOTM-440 as just a sort of expressive volume control. At times I was doing some fast movements that probably wouldn't have been possible with a sluggish pot (particularly at about 3:40!):
[video][/video]

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