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Pamela's Workout and Elektron A4
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next [all]
Author Pamela's Workout and Elektron A4
StoneLaw
I get no flam-ing or anything when I slave PAM to din sync (innerclock, tr 606.) It's possible it's a little behind or something but not enough to bother me, and those types of timing issues would bother me a ton.
ALM
landmax wrote:

If the A4 running sync at 24ppqn to Pam is the tightest option, I'm afraid it is not tight enough for my purposes making techno.


Are you sure the Din Sync clock the A4 is outputting is tight though ? Pam cant fix a sloppy clock. Have you tried driving anything else with the A4 via Din Sync and if so how is that ?

I drive Pam via Din Sync all the time via an ES3, Cirklon and various XoX boxes with no noticeable lag - definitely nothing at all 'flam' like.
landmax
ALM wrote:
landmax wrote:

If the A4 running sync at 24ppqn to Pam is the tightest option, I'm afraid it is not tight enough for my purposes making techno.


Are you sure the Din Sync clock the A4 is outputting is tight though ? Pam cant fix a sloppy clock. Have you tried driving anything else with the A4 via Din Sync and if so how is that ?

I drive Pam via Din Sync all the time via an ES3, Cirklon and various XoX boxes with no noticeable lag - definitely nothing at all 'flam' like.


Unfortunately I don't have anything else to clock with the A4. Maybe you're right and it has a sloppy clock?
grimley
Yes I'm convinced it's the A4 too as I have a similar small lag when clocking my x0xb0x from the A4.
nedavine
I wonder if this issue is the same with the A4 as slave to something like the octatrack. I know my OT clock is tight as ducks arse. If it is indeed the A4, then thats very disappointing. Not like I can ditch the A4 though.
desdinova
Shot in the dark, but try disabling the USB and see if that changes anything.
xclark
This all sounds familiar. Here's another thread about the same thing. Frustrating. very frustrating

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=114061&start=all
BrianAndren
digable-me wrote:
I can clock a 909 from Pam no problem. I just assumed that the A4 could receive din, but that could be completely wrong. I've never tried.


The A4 supports MIDI sync in/out with the option of converting the MIDI out to DIN sync out at 24 ppqn or 48 ppqn. If configured for DIN sync the output port cannot be used for MIDI traffic.
Abraxis
Well I've finally got Pam in my rack and am trying to get this to work myself.

If I:

1)Set Pam to the following:
C 24 (ppqn 24)
Fr 1 (free run mode on)

2)Prime the clock pressing the yellow button so 'CLK' flashes in the display.

3)Configure CVB (CVAB Ring) to the following:
Type: Clock
Legnth: 32
Polarity: V-Trig
Level: 5.0V
CLK 1

4.)Set A4 to 120 BPM and press play

I get Pam showing a BPM of 25.

If I reduce the ppqn on Pam to 4 I the display shows 120bpm. But they are no where near sync'd.

It seems like this means the A4 outputs it's CV clock at 4ppqn and I can't find anywhere to change it.
seriously, i just don't get it
Abraxis
So, I'm happy to say I found a solution.

I got one of the Expert Sleepers dinsync adapters from Detroit Modular in the mail today.

Running Dinsync 24 out of the A4 into Pam works great.
owensands
I clock my metropolis and rene from A4 all the time. Rock solid. I wouldnt think its the A4. Sending pitch and gate to boomstar is also spot on using the CV xoxox track. I also synch to bitwig studio midi time code with a4. All perfectly in time. I can slave my LXR from midi thru of A4 and send clock from LXR to modular as well with no issues. The A4 is my interface between DAW and modular and it works like a charm.
Abraxis
owensands wrote:
I clock my metropolis and rene from A4 all the time. Rock solid. I wouldnt think its the A4. Sending pitch and gate to boomstar is also spot on using the CV xoxox track. I also synch to bitwig studio midi time code with a4. All perfectly in time. I can slave my LXR from midi thru of A4 and send clock from LXR to modular as well with no issues. The A4 is my interface between DAW and modular and it works like a charm.


The CV clock was solid with Metropolis for me too, it just didn't get along with Pam very well for a reason that I couldn't figure out. $10 cable sorted it out nicely though.
r1n9o
So, I DIY'ed my own din to 1/8 cable. Hoped to make the A4 the master of the system.

First problem, crazy behavior. Turns out the run and clock cables were reversed, duh.

Second, had to set Din24 out on the A4, duh.

Third, Pamela was not set for Din24, it was 16 for some reason.

What I'm left with:

When at stand still, double clicking the stop button on A4 restarts Pamela!

"Run" means just that. It's not exactly a reset. Stopping with the stop button does reset Pamela. I guess this might be standard dinsync behavior?

Timing: Lousy, a noticeable delay/flam between the A4s audio out and sounds triggered by Pamela's. Bad news for percussion. The kicker is, starting and stopping creates a slightly different delay each time. Sometimes it's very close, but mostly flam-y.

For maxium hilarity, I have a Triggerman slaved to Pamela's. It's so far off, it almost makes it into swing territory.
[Edit: turns out i had an actual delay dialed in on the output that was driving the TM, so of course it swung. once this was zeroed out the delay, though still audibly present, was greatly reduced, duh.)


So much for A4 as master... MIDI is a dream compared to this. Not sure I understand how some people say it all works, others get nothing.
ChevChelios
Ok I think I know what the problem is. I don't have Pam but I do have an A4.

The A4 can send out a max of 24 pulses per quarter note. The number on the A4's first cv clock page is what it divides the 24 ppqn by so if Pam is set to look for 24 ppqn then you need to set the A4's clock divider to 1 on the first cv page for the clock settings.

Edit: just saw Abraixs' posts. That's really weird, I clock my MI Grids at 24ppqn from my A4 all the time and it seems rock solid. But I'm glad to hear that din sync works well via the ES cable, been thinking about getting one of those just to free up another cv out.
r1n9o
To be clear, you're referring to using one of the A4's CV outs to generate a sync signal, yes? There's a bunch of us dissatisfied with trying to get solid sync from the A4's MIDI/Din port via a din to 1/8" cable (like the ES one or ALMs own DSG module). The results aren't pretty.


ChevChelios wrote:
Ok I think I know what the problem is. I don't have Pam but I do have an A4.

The A4 can send out a max of 24 pulses per quarter note. The number on the A4's first cv clock page is what it divides the 24 ppqn by so if Pam is set to look for 24 ppqn then you need to set the A4's clock divider to 1 on the first cv page for the clock settings.

Edit: just saw Abraixs' posts. That's really weird, I clock my MI Grids at 24ppqn from my A4 all the time and it seems rock solid. But I'm glad to hear that din sync works well via the ES cable, been thinking about getting one of those just to free up another cv out.
extra testicle
just with pw? i put a4 din into dividers, steps and it's been ok. or try firing off an envelope or plugging it into frequency.

as far as i remember double tapping stop just stops the high +5 "run" din signal for me because that's like rolling the a4 back to zero and stopping once is like stopping in place. i'm pretty sure tapping stop once or pause doesn't stop it. tbh, i don't have a use for +5v all that often. maybe there is some kind of bounce problem if it's restarting?
r1n9o
Here are the results of some tests to determine the source of the flam or delay that is apparent when slaving Pamela's Workout to an Elektron Analog Four's din output when set to Din24. The Delptronics TriggerMan and TipTop z8000 were also tested.

The tests were run by directly recording the clocks of the devices into a DAW (Logic). Then, delays were counted in samples, three separate hits in three separate tests, each time. The first few notes in each test were ignored to give them time to get up to speed. The results are in milliseconds. (Recording at 44.1kHz, one millisecond equals 44.1 samples, duh.)

Any questions, comments, criticisms welcome!

Test #1: A4 Din24 vs 16th notes of itself
Audio delay = 0.68 milliseconds, with almost no jitter.

Test #2: Pamela's Workout slaved to A4's Din24
PW delay = 5.62 milliseconds, with nearly a full millisecond of variation across tests
PW jitter = 0.5 milliseconds, on average, sometimes almost 1 millisecond

Test #3: TriggerMan slaved to A4
TM delay = 2.1 milliseconds, less than 0.2 milliseconds variation

Test #4: z8000 slaved to A4's Din24
z8000 delay = 0.0 milliseconds, sample accurate sync. (z8000 is just a step sequencer, so it stands to reason it falls in perfect step with any clock. It was included here as a control of sorts.)

Conclusions:

PW is unusable as a slave. there's enough delay and jitter to cause audible flamming. PW is also the source of the variation in the the delay each time the A4 is stopped and restarted.

TM is much better, almost usable IMHO.

One other observation: PW clock pulse if half the strength of the TriggerMan's. This might explain why the TM has trouble catching every pulse when slaved to PW.

Now I'm left rethinking Pamela's role in my setup...
grimley
Anyone tried clocking a QCD with the A4 DIN sync?
maciej83
r1n9o wrote:

PW is unusable as a slave.


i had the same conclusions recently. i've tried to slave pamela with analog rytm, but it wasn't tight enough. i think many people had this problem before and there are topics about it. pamela could be redesigned to v2 in my opinion.

i have very good results with elektron machine and stepper acid sequencer. as for my ears it syncs very good, just how one would expect. pamela must go.
landmax
maciej83 wrote:
r1n9o wrote:

PW is unusable as a slave.


i had the same conclusions recently. i've tried to slave pamela with analog rytm, but it wasn't tight enough. i think many people had this problem before and there are topics about it. pamela could be redesigned to v2 in my opinion.

i have very good results with elektron machine and stepper acid sequencer. as for my ears it syncs very good, just how one would expect. pamela must go.


Sadly I have to agree.

Is there something that Pam could run that could in turn run the Elektrons in sync?
r1n9o
landmax wrote:
Sadly I have to agree.

Is there something that Pam could run that could in turn run the Elektrons in sync?


Slave an Elektron to PW? No, the Elektrons can only be slaved via MIDI. Pamela's has no MIDI I/O.
landmax
r1n9o wrote:
landmax wrote:
Sadly I have to agree.

Is there something that Pam could run that could in turn run the Elektrons in sync?


Slave an Elektron to PW? No, the Elektrons can only be slaved via MIDI. Pamela's has no MIDI I/O.


I just wondered if there is a box that could take a clock pulse from Pam and convert it to midi clock to run the Elektrons?
calaveras
a Xoxbox could fulfill that role.
Using a din sync patch cable into it's din sync input. Then Midi out to the A4.
I do not have such a setup. But I do a similar thing, clocking a Machinedrum from a Xox slaved to a crusty old KPR77.
SB-SIX
Will this cable work for a4 to pam? http://www.schneidersladen.de/en/kenton-kabel-f-solo-din-2-x-3-5-mono. html

The expert sleepers is not available
davidjames
Hmm...I was about to pick up a Pam to clock my modular from either my A4 or DAW. Now I'm rethinking as it doesn't seem to slave well. This post is a bit old though, has there been success using Pam's upgraded firmware? I ask that hesitantly since I've read some of the horror stories just getting Pam updated.
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