Fast Envelope besides Cwejman

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Fast Envelope besides Cwejman

Post by franzschuier » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:46 am

I searched a bit but couldnt find a definite answer to this.
Is there another really fast envelope besides the cwejman
adsr? - meaning lower than 0.5ms attack time?

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e-grad
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Post by e-grad » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:17 am

Don't know the specs but the A140 is fast.

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Post by franzschuier » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:05 am

hmm.. i have two but there not fast enough for me :twisted:

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Post by D/A A/D » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:06 am

M10 and Maths both do this really well...

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Post by e-grad » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:14 am

franzschuier wrote:hmm.. i have two but there not fast enough for me :twisted:
:despair: I had two of them and with the right setting of the range switch they were unusable for most musical applications unless you're doing clicks and cuts.

With the range switch to LOW it should go below 100µsec.

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Post by Somatic » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:20 am

Module A-140 has available a three-position toggle switch to select one of three time ranges. The envelope duration ranges from about 50us (microseconds) up to several minutes.

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Post by baboo » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:22 am

I think that ASOL EG01 can go up to audio rate in the repeat mode so it should be pretty fast, couldn't find exact specs tho

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Post by Navs » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:24 am

e-grad wrote:Don't know the specs but the A140 is fast.
It is bloody fast, but speed ain't everything ;)
franzschuier wrote:hmm.. i have two but there not fast enough for me
Seriously, how fast do you want them to be? :despair:

We had a long discussion about envelopes & speed over at sequencer.de a while ago. IMO what marks the Cwejman out is its response curves, dynamic range and stability. The A-140 sounded linear and lifeless to my ears and that is why I sold mine. But, I certainly wouldn't describe the Doepfer as sluggish.

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Post by e-grad » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:35 am

Navs wrote:The A-140 sounded linear and lifeless to my ears and that is why I sold mine.
I'm sure the vast majority of ADSRs commercially available are linear.

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Post by franzschuier » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:37 am

hmmmh. Ok maybe the vca I use it with is the problem.
I have a cwejman Vm1 where the a is 0,5ms in fastest position and
it sounds faster to me than another osc into Doepfer VCA controlled by A140.

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Post by Yohda » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:42 am

I'm sure the vast majority of ADSRs commercially available are linear.
I'm not sure, but I think the majority of ADSR have Log attack and expo decay and release. :)
hmmmh. Ok maybe the vca I use it with is the problem.
It may be a part of the problem, yes, you need a good VCA like the Cwejman with very fast enveloppe.

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Post by Navs » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:44 am

franzschuier wrote:hmmmh. Ok maybe the vca I use it with is the problem.
I have a cwejman Vm1 where the a is 0,5ms in fastest position and
it sounds faster to me than another osc into Doepfer VCA controlled by A140.
This could be it. Which Doepfer VCA do you have linear or exponential?

The Cwejman VCAs are semi-log (even when it says lin) or exp.

Flipping my VCA-2P to exp. has a radical effect on the sound, making it much snappier.

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Post by chinard » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:46 am

MATHS!!! :guinness:

I also use the Doepfer A-143-2 quad adsr when i need super fast envelopes.
here's the transient times taken from the doepfer website:


time ranges: A D/R
position
range switch: min. max. min. max.
l ~ 0,2 ms ~ 0,2 s ~ 0,5 ms ~ 0,5 s
m ~ 5 ms ~ 5 s ~ 15 ms ~ 10 s
h ~ 30 ms ~ 2 min ~ 100 ms ~ 5 min

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Post by e-grad » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:52 am

Yohda wrote:
I'm sure the vast majority of ADSRs commercially available are linear.
I'm not sure, but I think the majority of ADSR have Log attack and expo decay and release. :)
Just did my homework: You're right. I'm sorry!

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Post by Mr White » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:26 am

Yohda wrote:
hmmmh. Ok maybe the vca I use it with is the problem.
It may be a part of the problem, yes, you need a good VCA like the Cwejman with very fast enveloppe.
definitely +1 :razz:

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Post by franzschuier » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:52 am

Okey.. So whats a good vca that is affordable?

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Post by bar|none » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:20 am

What about the MFB Dual ADSR?

I have one to unload as well if you are looking used. I have the cwejman ADSR and now the cwejman CTG-VC so covered.

VCAs
A-132-3 is a board favorite.

I like the MFB VCA especially as a first since allows for some nice mixing options.

Don't forget that the QMMG while not cheap double as a bank of VCAs so helps get bang for buck.

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Post by e-grad » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:27 am

bar|none wrote:Don't forget that the QMMG while not cheap double as a bank of VCAs so helps get bang for buck.
He's got a fetish for speed thus a vactrol based VCA would be too sluggish. :cloud:

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Post by consumed » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:51 am

a fast vactrol module is not totally out of place in this conversation
i believe that the perception of speed/snappy is the core of this topic, not envelope specs
vactrols can feel very fast even with the ringing

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Post by Mr White » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:59 am

afaik vactrols opens very quick.
the ringing have to do only on the release stage, so they ARE snappy.

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Post by franzschuier » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:39 pm

A new Vca then - ill go for vcma 4mx then.. that will give me some room to.. thnx..

may have to sell the vm-1 to finance it though.. duh

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Post by bar|none » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:42 pm

that is a good choice....I just thought you were looking for a cheap one. ;)

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Post by Jari Jokinen » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:00 pm

Navs wrote:The Cwejman VCAs are semi-log (even when it says lin) or exp.
My VCA-2P "lin" is linear. DC to signal input, LFO saw to CV input => no curve.

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Post by Navs » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:30 am

Jari Jokinen wrote:
Navs wrote:The Cwejman VCAs are semi-log (even when it says lin) or exp.
My VCA-2P "lin" is linear. DC to signal input, LFO saw to CV input => no curve.
I just checked my VCA-2P again - you are right Jari.

Thanks for correcting me and sorry for spreading untruths :oops:

I was unsure about this because in my tests with Silent Way's CV Recover plug-in I could not get accurate results with the VCA-2P in linear mode, whereas using the VCO-2RM's DC-coupled ring mod worked perfectly.

Any ideas why?

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Post by Reptil » Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:05 am

FYI here's the doepfer page with (easy) mods for faster envelopes. (or slower)
I kept one a-140 just for modding and testing. there's nothing wrong with it AFAIK. The doepfer VCA a-130 and a-131 are not so good, but I'm positive that exchanging the TL062 for some better IC will result in a marked improvement. Very simple circuits, even for a dumbass like me.
An INS-2mx is on the way here, and a MOTM 190 VCA. That'll take care of the "snappy VCA" bit. :party:
Last edited by Reptil on Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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