CP/Halfsize module formats vary between Moon and CotK

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Leverkusen
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CP/Halfsize module formats vary between Moon and CotK

Post by Leverkusen » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:19 am

I just tried to get my new moon modular sequential switch into the CotK case but it would not fit. After emailing both, Gert and Kazike, I found out that the moon modular CP format is 143 mm in height while the CotK one measures 147 mm. (for those not so familiar with royale w/ cheese it's something like 5⅝ " vs. 5¾"). As I have rails in my case even the predrilled holes don't fit so I can't screw the new module in. :bang:

I understood that it is something with the piano hinge moog used to have the control panels, err, hinged to get easy access to the electronics behind them but, well... :hmm:

I cannot believe that I am the first one who noticed this but Gert and Kazike seem to not have known about it. It's a pitty regarding the new uprising of the CP-format cause it looks like this:

Image[/img]
Last edited by Leverkusen on Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Code Shu
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Post by Code Shu » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:42 am

:picard:

That's because they don't know what a f#$%n' quarter pounder is ... :hihi:

Gert's full size modules are slightly shorter, too, but they do fit. This is really a shame ...
Thanks for the heads up, though. I did consider going that same route.

Tim

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Post by burdij » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:58 am

I noticed this problem after doing a quick search on the history of the CP panel. I have a couple of modules and a cabinet design that I am thinking would go well in this format so I am concerned about this issue. I also may have a solution for the two types of CP modules if you don't mind retrofitting a new rail system in your cabinet. This modification would not change the gap at the bottom of Moon modules but it would allow you to use the screw holes to secure the bottom edge of the panel.
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Post by VinceL » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:00 pm

I have noticed across all the various MU suppliers (I have MU modules from 12 different companies) there are slight differences in panel heights (even a couple of very slight differences in width). But, I have not found any panels that do not have the correct spacing for the holes. There may be a slight gap at the top and/or bottom of the shorter panels, but they fit the holes on Dotcom rack adapters.

Sounds like that is not the case for the CP modules. :sadbanana:
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Post by JohnLRice » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:26 pm

Awww! What a shame! :sadbanana:

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Post by EMwhite » Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:23 pm

I have the Moon reversible attenuator (525MCP) but have yet to mount it in a proper CP row (I have an aluminum adapter I machined and is screwed into a regular 5U space at the moment) but this is troubling.

Let me get this straight; Moon makes the panel identical to the size as Moog did but if you have no hinge you are screwed.

While COTK makes theirs to fit the full height of the CP row Moog cabinet but does not offer or accommodate a hinge?

Reminds me of a line in '40 year old Virgin' that I won't repeat. I wonder how tall the Re:synthesis panels are as he makes a number of CP format blanks.
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Post by Dave Peck » Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:41 pm

Yup. Standards are a wonderful thing.

It's important to have lots and lots of them..... :doh:

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Post by CZ Rider » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:11 pm

Just yesterday the BMF released some scans of old R.A.Moog schematics/drawings. A CP5 drawing was one of them along with the original Bode ring modulator circuit.
The original CP panels were 5 5/8" acording to that drawing and the upper mounting holes were standard width, while the lower ones were different locations offset from the upper ones.

Image

Too bad more of these type drawings are not published or scanned.

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Post by Jefferies Tube » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:24 pm

Re:Synthesis makes two different CPs
Original Moog CP panels may have clearance for a mounting rail only at the top. With these, the lower edge has the folded edges simply cut at 45 degrees and fits over the piano hinge sections. Re:Synthesis versions are normally produced with rail clearance top and bottom, but the our "Moog" version has a rail clearance of 3/8" rather than our normal Dotcom 1/2" and different pitch lower holes to match the piano hinge - CP panels are approximately 143mm high.

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Post by Leverkusen » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:56 pm

EMwhite wrote:I have the Moon reversible attenuator (525MCP) but have yet to mount it in a proper CP row (I have an aluminum adapter I machined and is screwed into a regular 5U space at the moment) but this is troubling.

Let me get this straight; Moon makes the panel identical to the size as Moog did but if you have no hinge you are screwed.

While COTK makes theirs to fit the full height of the CP row Moog cabinet but does not offer or accommodate a hinge?

Reminds me of a line in '40 year old Virgin' that I won't repeat. I wonder how tall the Re:synthesis panels are as he makes a number of CP format blanks.
So with the additional information shared by Mr. Tube & Mr. Rider I would say yes, it's like that and when not thinking about what is more common I would say both aproaches seem reasonable. I wonder if the moon modules accomodate a piano hinge. At least this could be a solution for my issue - apart from building and filling a new case for every standard.

@burdij: what is that solution you are thinking of?

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EMwhite
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Post by EMwhite » Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:23 pm

The piano hinge sounds like a good option, however I fear that it will require offset (depth-wise) rails to accommodate the thickness of the hinge and of course the hardware will need to be [should be] flush.

CZ, an off topic question for you... did BMF release the diagrams/schematics what have you (I haven't looked yet) as a result of the pending Cornell transfer, as a result of general public requests, something else, nothing else :hihi: any guesses?

Otherwise, it's very nice to see this drawing; excellent that you can see the erasure marks... ah the old days of hand drawn machine drawings. I've got a black and white photo of a room full of drafts[people]man at Gottlieb from the 50's/60's.
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CZ Rider
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Post by CZ Rider » Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:02 pm

EMwhite wrote: CZ, an off topic question for you... did BMF release the diagrams/schematics what have you (I haven't looked yet) as a result of the pending Cornell transfer, as a result of general public requests, something else, nothing else :hihi: any guesses?
LOL, might have been me asking so many times why they never published any unknown shcematics, since they had access to so many. These are from another archive they have and not from Bob's personal collection. The post of schematics seems to mark the anniversary of the forming of the BMF.
Link here:
http://moogfoundation.org/schematics/

Nice to see an actual official drawing of the CP format. There were a few other jems they posted like the Harold Bode ring modulator circuit. Works off a non R.A.Moog type power supply at 20 volts and is probably why the single 6401 and dual 6402 was a self powered rack mount. I might have a go at cloning that one. They are said to be very unique sounding along with the original transformer type Bode model 6552 frequency shifter. The newer "better spec" ones sounded different.

I seem to be one of the few around here that is very interested in building these old discrete circuits that don't use IC's at all. That time peroid of sound manipulation fascinates me. Something about running sound signals through lengths of copper and iron changes the sound that are so different from the modern techniques used today.

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Post by tongebirge » Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:55 am

I had exactly the Same Problem.
So i did send My CP Module back to Moon and they made the Mounting holes Bigger.
But it is not the Perfect Solution.

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Post by LesMoMo » Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:17 pm

CZ Rider wrote:Just yesterday the BMF released some scans of old R.A.Moog schematics/drawings. A CP5 drawing was one of them along with the original Bode ring modulator circuit.
The original CP panels were 5 5/8" acording to that drawing and the upper mounting holes were standard width, while the lower ones were different locations offset from the upper ones.

Image

Too bad more of these type drawings are not published or scanned.
Our CP's are meant to fit into existing Moog cabs. We even care(d) for the uneven spacing of the bottom mounting holes (if required). The reason being the type of hinges used by Moog.

The customs cabs we are providing (like the one shown at NAMM) accommodate the Moog height (5 5/8) with an identical spacing of upper and lower mounting holes.

The custom systems of Ed and Hans follow the very same approach.

Gert

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Re: CP/Halfsize module formats vary between Moon and CotK

Post by Henfield » Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:40 pm

Leverkusen wrote:I just tried to get my new moon modular sequential switch into the CotK case but it would not fit. After emailing both, Gert and Kazike, I found out that the moon modular CP format is 143 mm in height while the CotK one measures 147 mm. (for those not so familiar with royale w/ cheese it's something like 5⅝" vs. 5¾"). As I have rails in my case even the predrilled holes don't fit so I can't screw the new module in. :bang:
This has nothing to do with the piano hinge, as that just changes the location of the mounting hole. If you look at the Moog specs, thank you CZ for posting them, these panels are only supposed to be 5 5/8" (143 mm) in height, not 147mm. I just received a CP panel made for me by Ben at Resynthesis and it is 143 mm as well. Ben did ask me if the panel was for an original Moog cabinet (which I do not have), as he will adjust the bottom holes if they are to be mounted with the piano hinge. Once I get everything wired up, I will show you an example of Ben's work.

I already have a Moon blank, which I may start cutting on to accommodate some of the synth utilities.
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Post by CZ Rider » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:36 pm

Anyone interested in sourcing those piano hinges, they seem to be standard size 1-1/16" wide, with 2" centered mounting holes. I just picked up some at the local hardware and although just steel with brass plating, they look to be sutable for mounting CP panels Moog style.
The 2" centered mounting holes account for the different locations on the bottom of the CP as the standard mounting for Moog modules is 2-1/8" apart. They also raise up the CP bottom edge a little bit.
They look very close to the originals. New one (Vertical) next to original.
Image

These come in different lengths and the one I found was 30" long. They were too fragile for a hand saw to shorten to correct length. So I needed to use a dia-cutter to cut to size.
Image


Standard safety measures apply here. Those cutting disks can fly apart if you catch them the right way.
Image

After cutting, was able to get 15U of hinges from 30". (The hinge mounted on the CP is actually backward. Raised part of hinge goes on inside.)
Image

Height difference raises up the CP about 1/4". The large size of the mounting holes gives a little "wiggle" room. On the Moog walnut cabinets the hinges were directly fastened to the bottom. In portable cases a Tinnerman clip was used on the hinge and a large #10 screw used from bottom going through a drilled hole in the case.
Image

This is the brand I purchased, made in Canada.
Image

Have seen these in different brands. The only anomaly is there is a divot they put on one side of the hinge every few hinges. Looks like it was made with a centerpunch. Guess to keep the center pin of the hinge in place? Usually you can pull the center wire out. Just have to mount the divot down so it is not visible when the CP is mounted.
Works for me! Now I have to get some shortened CP size panels. Might have a go at cutting down some Dotcom blanks.

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Post by jjq » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:15 pm

Anyone knows how Mos-labs CP modules matches up?

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Post by kindredlost » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:48 am

Great research and impressive DIY skills CZ Rider.

I use some of these "piano hinges" in my machine shop for panel duties and to reinforce large box hinges for the giant micrometers and gages. I use the same method for parting them down. A Dremel brand tool is ideal. I've even welded some of these hinges and other heavier hinges to sheet metal guards on large lathes and mills. They last quite a long time.

About the drawings... I started in drafting doing things by hand and learned from a master drafstman (actually a drafts-woman) back in the 1970's. We used the large tilt drafting tables with the panograph arms and sheets of hand powdered vellum. Learning the craft with special pencils, Rapidograph pens and india ink was wonderful. We even used the motorized eraser tools for quicker and precise corrections. I still have all the drafting supplies in my office. Of course all of that is replaced by computer aided drafting software now (CAD). I still lay out my own module panel by hand then interpret them into Front Panel Express. Ben at Re:Synthesis is a wizard at this stuff now and has the appropriate CAD/CAM post software to guide the machines.

The development of the CP series stuff has definitely reached the state of needing an agreed-upon standard, and if some one decides to accommodate the hinge, then I think it would behoove them to note it in the listing and possibly do as you have done with providing a hardware version or kit to the end buyer. Cabinets are just too pricey and labor intensive to have to build to suit one size versus the next. Growing pains in a Cottage Industry.

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Post by synthnut » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:42 am

Hi all,

I can vouch with some authority that the Mos-Lab CP panels are nominally 143mm high (it's 142.862 in the CAD file) with a standard dotcom hole pattern top and bottom at 2.125" pitch.

I agree there does really need to be a standard for these as they seem to be gathering momentum once again. On the basis that Moog already has drawn it up, I put forward the original as being the one to follow!
The hole pitch thing is not to problematic to overcome though, it's the height difference that's more an issue obviously...

By the way, Moog made them with both standard cutout sides top and bottom as well as with the bevelled lower corners for the piano hinge. I find that this causes a distortion in the fold that's very difficult to alleviate, so my production is generally done with notched corners. The plus side of this is that you can rail-mount them without any hassle.
I think the hinge was a way round the issue of fitting stuff in the odd shaped gap at the bottom of slated cabinets. Most pcbs were screwed to the cabinet floor rather than the panel, so it didn't clash like the Dotcom problem some people experience. The hinges just let you drop the panels down without straining the wiring.

TTFN,
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Post by CZ Rider » Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:40 am

I was able to make a CP panel from a Dotcom blank by cutting it down to the original Moog size. I used a handheld jigsaw with a fine metal cutting blade. To get a nice even cut, I "C" clamped a straight edge to guide the saw.
Image

I get a surprisingly straight cut using this method.
Looks OK?
Image

I needed a CP8 power panel and cutout measurements are the same as the right side of the posted Moog CP5 drawing.
Marked and center punched for the needed holes.
Image

The DIY CP8 with parts mounted, bottom edge filed/grinded down like original Moog. Just needs some lettering for power and fuses used.
Image

This is for a portable Moog style cabinet I am making. Have half a Minimoog with the three oscillators and noise source, along with the +/-10 volt regulator board and transformer.
Image

Those Mini oscillators sound great through the big Moog. Lots of work to do on this project, but figuring out the CP panels was one of those things I had to work out. I guess I'll be ordering a 4U and 2U blank from Dotcom to finish the CP bottom.

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:57 am

CZ Rider wrote:This is for a portable Moog style cabinet I am making. Have half a Minimoog with the three oscillators and noise source, along with the +/-10 volt regulator board and transformer.
Image
Awesome work as always, CZ! :love: :yay: :tu: :hail:

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Post by NYMo » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:00 am

Ha..half a Minimoog..you weren't kidding :hihi:

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Post by kindredlost » Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:50 am

Outstanding craftsmanship and a great synth plan CZ! This is inspiring.

Ben, I second your proposal to keep the original Moog CP design as the new (?) standard.

The only reason I can think of that the 45 degree cut on the bottom of the panel would be preferred over the notch would be for strength on a thinner sheet. I could see a slight tendency to bend if there were enough force applied accidentally to the area where the hinge was mounted. The difference is not worth the effort as I see it, so we probably should stay with the notched wing at the bottom. Maybe a test should be conducted with a hinge-mounted panel?

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Post by suitandtieguy » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:55 am

i'm so thankful that i put off doing CP modules long enough to read this thread.

for the record i will probably not ever, now. :guinness:



seriously brothers, i feel your pain (from a thankfully observational distance.)
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Post by twocanwin » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:27 am

sorry to dig up an old thread but doing this myself and wondering about cabinet measurements given all the info I've found here and elsewhere about varying CP module size/hinge/no hinge. Basically I'm wondering what the original dimensions for the Ip/15 cabinets were. By my math I get...

2 x 8.75 (2 rows 5U)
+ 6.625 (1 row CP)
+ 1 (2 pieces at 1/2")
--------------------
24.125 inches.

Factoring in that most 1/2" lumber is really closer to 7/16" this gives you some wiggle room for tolex. But from the little info I could find elsewhere (maybe somewhere on the moog forum) the original cabinets were 24.375. So, does the hinge account for that extra 1/4"? That seems like a lot and I dont recall much wiggle room from the few Ive seen.

(Also wondering about the depth if anyone has that info. Curious about the main cabinet and the lid. I think the cab was 8" but don't know about the lid)

Likewise curious what the dimensions of the COTK and Moon Cabinets are. From what I gather from all the measurements Im finding Gert's would be 24.125", COTK would be 24.25" and, yeah, the originals would be 24.375."

Nominal but infuriating differences. Can anyone confirm any/all of this.

Thanks!

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