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Any thoughts on the new Envelators VS Plan B model 10?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules  
Author Any thoughts on the new Envelators VS Plan B model 10?
jcn7
Hi all, I have 2 Plan B model 10's that I will be using in my euro modular but was wondering what any of you thought about the comparisons of these to the new Envelator's that are soon out. Is there enough difference between them and would it be prudent to own the Envelator along with my 2 model 10's, or is there a better choice than the Envelator? Thanks for any insight. Jaime
Hi5
i think the envelator is a better option given they have very similar features but it also has the delay, separate rise/fall vc, and the main thing is the asr,ar,lfo option. the model 10 is just ar and lfo.
The model 10 does have the ramp out and a switch for expo/log/linear shapes but this could be patched up with the envelator.

If you really dig the model 10 i would say 1 of each. however, if i was in the market to purchase an eg that took up 20hp i would say the maths gives you the most functionality with 2 eg, 2 atten channels, inputs for processing, and the logic/mixing options.
ST UF FLI N EAR
i wouldnt know, but here you are http://www.synthdiy.com/show/?id=1673
aristotle
I had a similar decision to make....I had a plan b poly env...and wanted another envelope similar...so envelator, maths, or VCS,....I went with the VCS and actually I like the plan b more end though with the VCS you have control of the rise and fall separate...i dunno...the plan b just seems to be more usable to me...maybe I jsutneed to work more with the VCS...but I wasnt overly blown away with it. Envelator was probably the best choice.
jcn7
Thanks all...I actually have a Maths module, but I'm still waiting on the rest of my modules and power supply, DYI case to be built...I'll have to read up on the Maths again...I guess until I have everything hooked up it's a bit academic. So the Maths works as an envelope also...cool, I also have a QMMG to go along with it. Jaime
aristotle
Yeah I thought the maths was a dual VCS type of thing with some additional functionality...i passed on it as I dont really understand it completely...I still trying to cope with my QMMG....it seems simple on the surface but not so much really ....the make noise guy really designs outside of the box stuff that is not so standard so it takes me more time to get my head around it.
dkcg
aristotle wrote:
I had a similar decision to make....I had a plan b poly env...and wanted another envelope similar...so envelator, maths, or VCS,....I went with the VCS and actually I like the plan b more end though with the VCS you have control of the rise and fall separate...i dunno...the plan b just seems to be more usable to me...maybe I jsutneed to work more with the VCS...but I wasnt overly blown away with it. Envelator was probably the best choice.


I think they both have their strengths. I really like the VCS for slewing CVs and envelopes, but wish they had a bi polar levels control like the M10. I find myself using an attenuator when using the VCS as an envelope since it's often too hot straight out of it. I don't know if it's just perception, but the M10 feels faster than the VCS to me when opening LPGs.

The maths is one of my favorites now, great on it's own, even more powerful with a couple other envelopes, I stopped missing my A143 AR/LFO module because of it. I still want an Envelator, that delay control should be sweet if it's anything like the delay in the RS-510 trapazoid generator (which is pretty slow in comparison to the Maths, M10, and VCS which all seem to be more or less the same speed.
dkcg
aristotle wrote:
Yeah I thought the maths was a dual VCS type of thing with some additional functionality...i passed on it as I dont really understand it completely...I still trying to cope with my QMMG....it seems simple on the surface but not so much really ....the make noise guy really designs outside of the box stuff that is not so standard so it takes me more time to get my head around it.


It's like a siamese twin VCS inspired dual envelope with a voltage processor (sorta like 1/2 a PlanB Model14) all in one. Mix CVs, offset CVs, attenuate CVs and envelopes, mix envelopes with CVs (which could be external envelopes or LFOs, or any type of CV (bipolar to boot). I haven't tried mixing audio, but I don't see why it couldn't to that too.
felix
I hate to always be the guy defending the M10, but I've yet to find an EG in Euro that beats it for my needs, in my opinion.

--unique to the M10---
1. The M10 mkI (which is what I have) does not re-trigger.
When not triggering via a keyboard/touchplates I find more practical and creative uses for exploiting the fact that it does not re-trigger.

2. Cycle gate in.
This is a fantastic feature. Gate high signal starts the EG cycling (regardless of if it's in "LFO" mode). Gate low stops. This is really fun when used with sequencers and random gate generators. I'm really looking forward to exploiting it with Pressure Points gate outs.

3. Separate Ramp out.
I have found many cases where this has saved me from using another EG. Many times, particularly when dealing with FM indexes and timbre/waveshaping control, I want another, but different event function linked with the main amplitude event function, and the Ramp serves this purpose perfectly.

--not unique to M10--
4. Switchable envelope curves.
Sure, you can achieve different curves by using feedback from the EG output, but this does not use up the Attack/Decay CV ins to do it (or require the use of an external mixer to change the curve *and* apply external VC over Attack/Decay times). The Maths probably has the nicest implementation here being that it's freely variable and always accessible.

5. Attenuator (attenuverter actually) for the EG output.
I can tell you how valuable this is particular for use with most of the LPG offering on Euro (or at least the two I've had, M13 and QMMG) where there is no attenuator for the input CV. The fact that you can easily invert and attenuate is a huge plus as well. The only way I've ever wanted to improve this on the M10 is to have only one of the multed EG outputs be affected by the attenuverter. I don't need identical outputs on a module...I have mults and stackcables for that.

--downsides to M10--
1. No independent VC for Attack and Decay.
You can only VC both at once (the timebase). Better than not having it at all though and the effect achieved is pretty close to what I'm after anyway.

2. Using LFO switch defeats EOC output.
This has always been irritating. It appears the switch simply connects the signal that normally goes to the EOC output and connects it to the trigger in. It would be awesome if EOC still output when the LFO switch is used.

3. Attenuverter affects both EG outputs.
Again, having two outputs for the same EG is not helpful to me. Having one attenuverted and one not would have been awesome.

The one thing that really had me *really* interested in the Envelator is the Delay control. What an awesome idea! However, now learning that it *ONLY* functions in cycle mode it makes it less attractive. It would have been awesome to use it in normal modes as a built-in trigger delay, and that would have sold me on it. As it stands now, I would essentially be buying it just for the Delay control during cycle, and I could add that functionality onto my M10 with a trigger delay module and get both functions that I want (delay during cycle, and delay for input trigger for single shot).

But the M10 also has a serious downside. It's not made anymore! And the MKII apparently can blow a diode if you send it a hot trigger/gate while you also have it in LFO mode.
porfiry
dkcg wrote:
I haven't tried mixing audio, but I don't see why it couldn't to that too.


It does indeed work okay for that, in a pinch.

To aristotle: don't take the inherent complexity to be a bad thing...that shit is the gift that keeps on giving. After about two months with two Maths, about every second day they still give me a reason to MY ASS IS BLEEDING
bar|none
@felix
>But the M10 also has a serious downside. It's not made anymore! And the MKII apparently can blow a diode if you send it a hot trigger/gate while you also have it in LFO mode.

My new CTG-VC ejected one of my M10s but I have this irrational fear I should keep it around, in case one dies. I guess it should be easy enough to fix or find another.
aristotle
porfiry wrote:
dkcg wrote:
I haven't tried mixing audio, but I don't see why it couldn't to that too.


It does indeed work okay for that, in a pinch.

To aristotle: don't take the inherent complexity to be a bad thing...that shit is the gift that keeps on giving. After about two months with two Maths, about every second day they still give me a reason to MY ASS IS BLEEDING


point taken....yeah the maths seems to be a pretty popular module and rightly so...in fact make noise is probably one of the top really creative makers right now...the designs are way out of the box...sometimes confusing at first but you get what you pay for...I just wish he was more into labeling! w00t
porfiry
Yeah, it's definitely not stoic laboratory-style design on the faceplates, but they do make total sense once you get past the outlandish look.
aristotle
felix wrote:
I hate to always be the guy defending the M10, but I've yet to find an EG in Euro that beats it for my needs, in my opinion.

--unique to the M10---
1. The M10 mkI (which is what I have) does not re-trigger.
When not triggering via a keyboard/touchplates I find more practical and creative uses for exploiting the fact that it does not re-trigger.

2. Cycle gate in.
This is a fantastic feature. Gate high signal starts the EG cycling (regardless of if it's in "LFO" mode). Gate low stops. This is really fun when used with sequencers and random gate generators. I'm really looking forward to exploiting it with Pressure Points gate outs.

3. Separate Ramp out.
I have found many cases where this has saved me from using another EG. Many times, particularly when dealing with FM indexes and timbre/waveshaping control, I want another, but different event function linked with the main amplitude event function, and the Ramp serves this purpose perfectly.

--not unique to M10--
4. Switchable envelope curves.
Sure, you can achieve different curves by using feedback from the EG output, but this does not use up the Attack/Decay CV ins to do it (or require the use of an external mixer to change the curve *and* apply external VC over Attack/Decay times). The Maths probably has the nicest implementation here being that it's freely variable and always accessible.

5. Attenuator (attenuverter actually) for the EG output.
I can tell you how valuable this is particular for use with most of the LPG offering on Euro (or at least the two I've had, M13 and QMMG) where there is no attenuator for the input CV. The fact that you can easily invert and attenuate is a huge plus as well. The only way I've ever wanted to improve this on the M10 is to have only one of the multed EG outputs be affected by the attenuverter. I don't need identical outputs on a module...I have mults and stackcables for that.

--downsides to M10--
1. No independent VC for Attack and Decay.
You can only VC both at once (the timebase). Better than not having it at all though and the effect achieved is pretty close to what I'm after anyway.

2. Using LFO switch defeats EOC output.
This has always been irritating. It appears the switch simply connects the signal that normally goes to the EOC output and connects it to the trigger in. It would be awesome if EOC still output when the LFO switch is used.

3. Attenuverter affects both EG outputs.
Again, having two outputs for the same EG is not helpful to me. Having one attenuverted and one not would have been awesome.

The one thing that really had me *really* interested in the Envelator is the Delay control. What an awesome idea! However, now learning that it *ONLY* functions in cycle mode it makes it less attractive. It would have been awesome to use it in normal modes as a built-in trigger delay, and that would have sold me on it. As it stands now, I would essentially be buying it just for the Delay control during cycle, and I could add that functionality onto my M10 with a trigger delay module and get both functions that I want (delay during cycle, and delay for input trigger for single shot).

But the M10 also has a serious downside. It's not made anymore! And the MKII apparently can blow a diode if you send it a hot trigger/gate while you also have it in LFO mode.


well documented and after reading and re-reading this I agree. I will also stick up for this module...its one of the more fun module to experiment with...my fave envelope thus far...between a VCS and Doepfer quad ADSR.
dougcl
felix wrote:
I hate to always be the guy defending the M10, but I've yet to find an EG in Euro that beats it for my needs, in my opinion.


You aren't the only one. I have two (soon three) of them directly below my QMMG. I ran a patch the other day that made the dual EG output design make perfect sense. I think it was one to the M12, and one to the M13. Or maybe it was both to different inputs on the M12. Or maybe it was one to the M15 morph, and one to the M13. Anyway lots of combinations with those core modules in which it makes sense. Especially if one of the destinations has an attenuator.
Cybananna
felix wrote:
the MKII apparently can blow a diode if you send it a hot trigger/gate while you also have it in LFO mode.


That's the only thing that sucks about the M10. That's a serious design problem.

I love how the M10 functions and "sounds" though.

I'm really looking forward to the Envelator. I think it looks really good. I have a need for one or two more envelopes so i'll get at least 1 Envelator and see who comes out on top.

I've really liked all the Malekko / Wiard modules so I expect this one to be very good too.
Tim Stinchcombe
felix wrote:
2. Using LFO switch defeats EOC output.
This has always been irritating. It appears the switch simply connects the signal that normally goes to the EOC output and connects it to the trigger in. It would be awesome if EOC still output when the LFO switch is used.
EOC is actually still there, but it is a tiny, tiny spike, only a handful of microseconds wide. It is possible to 'catch it', and elongate it, with something like a Doepfer A-142, but it can be tricky to adjust the 142 to 'find' it properly, and there may be quite a bit of jitter on the falling edge of the gate output by the 142. It seems to be harder to adjust the 142 the slower the M10 is running, but I only played around with it for 10 minutes or so, so I may have missed a trick or two.

Tim
Navs
Tim Stinchcombe wrote:
EOC is actually still there...


Ha ha! Tim beat me to it hihi

The A-142 is one method of catching it, but I use ... an A-133 (!)

This will boost and clip the miniscule pulse into something useable.

You could do the same with an A-119 external input.
This has the advantage of outputting a 'clean' gate, based on your threshold setting.

Now, if someone could offer me a solution for the nasty clicks I experience when re-triggering from zero on my MKII, I'd be a happy man wink
Tim Stinchcombe
Hi Navs,
Navs wrote:
The A-142 is one method of catching it, but I use ... an A-133 (!)

This will boost and clip the miniscule pulse into something useable.
Interesting idea, I didn't think of that. But, it seems there may be some module to module variation going on here, as if I put my M10 EOC through my 133, yes I can make the little spike bigger, but there is no way it is anywhere near being clipped!?

But placing it between the M10 and the 142 does help. Without it, there is so little control movement on the 142 gate threshold, between 'no gate' and 'gate', I can't 'capture' the pulse from the M10 when it is running much below 200-300Hz. If I put the 133 in there too, it allows me to come down to 2 or 3Hz (but very fine adjustment is needed).

Quote:
You could do the same with an A-119 external input.
This has the advantage of outputting a 'clean' gate, based on your threshold setting.
This was also an interesting idea, but I couldn't get it to work. The 'asym' input (i.e. the minijack) inverts the signal, and even pre-inverting this (with an A-175), the filtering action of the envelope follower bit in the 119 means that the pulse simply doesn't get through to that bit of the circuit which can give a gate output (with the adjustable threshold).

Quote:
Now, if someone could offer me a solution for the nasty clicks I experience when re-triggering from zero on my MKII, I'd be a happy man
Am I right in thinking your issue here was the abrupt resetting of the envelope to zero as it re-triggers, thus causing the VCA connected to 'thump' shut audibly, or was it the double-trigger effect when triggering normally (which I'm surprised I haven't heard more about, so it again might vary a lot from module to module)?

My efforts to-date with the M10 have been focussed more on understanding the operation of the core of the Serge circuit (of which the M10 is virtually a direct copy) which generates the envelope, to see what limits the longest envelope time to around 2.5 minutes, and not the advertised 20 minutes (I do understand this now - increasing the main integrator cap is probably the most obvious thing to do...). Now I hope to spend time seeing how to best deal with all the triggering issues - the blowing of either of the two diodes, and the double-triggering mentioned above - with an aim to having a slightly more 'coherent' approach to all of them (but any mod might be rather wide-ranging...). I'm also surprised not hear anything about the little 'glitches' in the envelope when the output level is anything but max, caused by a bad choice of components in the output stage, but again this may vary from module to module (and in any case is easily fixed by swapping one resistor).

Tim

[Edit to remove possible ambiguity]
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