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What's up with ADDAC's customer service?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> ADDAC System Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next [all]
Author What's up with ADDAC's customer service?
loopt
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
If you are dissuaded by the lack of responsiveness vote with your money and shut up.

This is a forum on the internet and it is for discussing things. That includes stating personal opinions.
I don't think you are in the position to tell people to shut up.
Paranormal Patroler
loopt wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
If you are dissuaded by the lack of responsiveness vote with your money and shut up.

This is a forum on the internet and it is for discussing things. That includes stating personal opinions.
I don't think you are in the position to tell people to shut up.


Sometimes people need to be reminded of the power of their posts. Making unstated claims about the quality of a manufacturer based on a personal assessment can and has* started a downward spiral - will this help anybody? I think not. Its easier for people to read that ADDAC is shit and believe it, than it is for posters to point out that the negativism is not-withstanding. I stand by my words: post responsibly.


-edit-

Just felt the need to say I'm against fanboyism as well. I have no personal gain out of "protecting" ADDAC other than trying to keep things civil all around (as is my responsibility) and trying to get a new firmware out for the 207. It might be the case that my passionate writing has got the best of me, so I want to make clear that my posts are not a personal attack on anybody (unless stated as such). My intention is not to offend but merely to awaken.



*Apart from the PlanB insident there have been several occasions were people start massively dissing on the quality of a certain manufacturer just because one module out of a numerous line turned sour by bad design
loopt
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
loopt wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
If you are dissuaded by the lack of responsiveness vote with your money and shut up.

This is a forum on the internet and it is for discussing things. That includes stating personal opinions.
I don't think you are in the position to tell people to shut up.


Sometimes people need to be reminded of the power of their posts. Making unstated claims about the quality of a manufacturer based on a personal assessment can and has started a downward spiral for sales - will this help anybody? I think not. Its easier for people to read that ADDAC is shit and believe it than it is for posters to point out that the negativism is non-withstanding. I stand by my words.

The power of posting on the internet combined with the power to vote with our money is basically all we have as consumers. So why not exercise it?
Also, this forum is already chock full with posts raving about the quality of ADDAC modules.
I'm not saying that basic rules of netiquette and style shouldn't be enforced, but calling facts for what they are should be allowed.

Paranormal Patroler wrote:

Just felt the need to say I'm against fanboyism as well. I have no personal gain out of "protecting" ADDAC other than trying to keep things civil all around and trying to get a new firmware for the 207. It might be the case that my passionate writings has got the best of me and I want to say that my posts are not a personal attack to anybody (unless stated as such). My intention is not to offend.

Fair enough.
I just felt a little offended when you told people to shut up. I do not own any ADDAC products and I have no axe to grind in this thread.
Paranormal Patroler
loopt wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:

Just felt the need to say I'm against fanboyism as well. I have no personal gain out of "protecting" ADDAC other than trying to keep things civil all around and trying to get a new firmware for the 207. It might be the case that my passionate writings has got the best of me and I want to say that my posts are not a personal attack to anybody (unless stated as such). My intention is not to offend.

Fair enough.
I just felt a little offended when you told people to shut up. I do not own any ADDAC products and I have no axe to grind in this thread.


I apologize if I have offended you; it was not my intention. If I could rewrite that sentence it would now say: shut up (and think before you post) Hug
flo
Just a suggestion to Andre... Since you're rewriting the firmware anyways: I had the impression that much of the bugs had to do with the innovative feature of being able to quantize negative CV. If that's indeed the case, maybe add an option to turn this off, so negative CV gets ignored (like in all other quantizers) and thus there's no problem with a 0V input at quantizer 1... Not sure whether it would help, just an idea.

Apart from that, all ADDAC that I have is top notch high quality stuff and I intend to buy more of it. The 207 is high on my list, looking forward to updates.
meatbeatz
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
I'm flabbergasted by the torch-ready responses I read. zombie Common' guys, don't you see how everybody is mishandling the situation here? I own a 207 myself and I'm equally dissapointed by its non-working status but lets take a step back and face some facts before things do get uglier. (By the way, I'm in no way affiliated with ADDAC Systems other than being supportive of their products 'cause I own quite a lot of their modules)


207 owners are annoyed at the lack of communication. Other than that, what's to be flabbergasted about? I paid for this module over two years ago and now I'm kicking up a stink. If I hadn't I doubt we'd have a response.

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Claiming that ADDAC products can turn sour down the road is total bullshit and people who post this shit need to grow the fuck up immediately.


Where are you getting this from? The only issues I'm aware of are a) the 207 and b) lack of communication.

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
I own a lot of ADDAC modules and I never had any issue (207 not withstanding). Be fucking responsible with what you post. Eurorack is small business, its not the first time a manufacturer runs into a problem, we've been through this shit before. If you are dissuaded by the lack of responsiveness vote with your money and shut up.


I did not start this thread do dissuade anyone. I started it to get ADDAC's attention since he's been ignoring me for months on end. If people are put off by that it's up to them.

I'm a manufacturer also albeit on a much smaller scale. Up until recently I've kept my mouth shut regards the long winding road that is the 207 due to this. After being ignored for months I am now bringing it to the forum as my only means of getting through. All of this could've been avoided. I've bought two arduino UNO's and spent countless hours troubleshooting the 207. No major drama.. I take this as part and parcel of building a euro rig. All I wanted to know is whether it was worth my while persevering (ie: WILL there be a fix?). If not, at least I could put it behind me. I've always maintained a fully functioning 207 is worth hanging out for. I'm glad to hear new firmware is planned and that a happy ending is in sight (fingers crossed).

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Have you even tried working with the module and not use the triggers for the rest of the channels?


Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Did you only pay for that functionality? Hell no! Should we get what was advertised? Hell yes! But going crazy doesn't help.


I wouldn't have bought the 207 if it didn't have trigger inputs.

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
a) ADDAC gets its act together and specifies an approximate date for the release of the new firmware. We need to know when we can expect it. No excuses, no bullshit.

b) Customers need to be kept up-to-date on the revision. No feature-creeping for the new firmware to get this thing out as fast as possible, but keeping us up-to-date means people are more patient. Keeping us in the dark means flaming.

c) No new 207 should be sold in the meantime. Selling a buggy module is unethical.

d) An ADDAC official post needs to be made about the 207 reprogramming and people should post there. We only focus on the 207 and we keep it civil, raining complaints directly to ADDAC only stalls things for all of us.

e) If more people complains pile up Andre needs to give replies in that thread. But do know that getting the ADDAC mastermind to spend time on replies stalls firmware update. Saying that, Andre, keeping people in the dark is the worst possible thing you can do. Remember the Plan B situation?

I am a firm believer that we can get good results out of this.


I completely agree with all of this. Thanks for bringing something constructive to the thread.
If you think my bringing this to the board was crazy or otherwise, we can exchange emoticons via PM. SMACK!
Paranormal Patroler
meatbeatz wrote:
I completely agree with all of this. Thanks for bringing something constructive to the thread.
If you think my bringing this to the board was crazy or otherwise, we can exchange emoticons via PM. SMACK!


I think this thread is created under a fair light and I'm happy that it stirred a response by ADDAC. Although I guiltily enjoy the spank emoticon, we should keep this thread going in a constructive manner so please allow me to answer

Agony!
Fastus
I think it's important not to forget the narrative before getting upset at customers being upset.

A module was released with buggy untested software - followed by a buggy untested firmware update that nobody could install & that required purchase of additional hardware. A request that future modules should be more easily update-able was denied with a declaration that "the code must be written right to begin with" - a noble sentiment that ignores the immediate reality.

All this was exacerbated by an absence of communication instead of any kind of helpful dialogue - it seemed like we just bought an expensive lemon and are stuck with it.

I don't think I'd be in Eurorack if this was a typical experience, and I don't think anybody would have bought this module if they knew this would happen.

This is a fairly forgiving crowd here at MFW - I think it's entirely misplaced to be angry at customers who have every right to be upset by this whole experience.
NS4W
I've had good communication with André, and I managed to install the firmware updates after a few tries. It still has some remaining flaws to be sorted out. That said, I'm glad they are back on track and replying to bug reports thumbs up

I second the need for a function to bypass Q1 influence on the Q2,3 and 4.
Paranormal Patroler
I promised myself I won't get into a debate in order to avoid derailing this thread in any way. But your reply is very courteous and civilized so I cannot help but answer the points you raised to show my gratitude towards your toned down vibe.

Quote:
A module was released with buggy untested software - followed by a buggy untested firmware update that nobody could install & that required purchase of additional hardware. A request that future modules should be more easily update-able was denied with a declaration that "the code must be written right to begin with" - a noble sentiment that ignores the immediate reality.


Personally I find that ADDAC's response regarding the update was ok. Obviously the fix is not in par with what we are expecting (disclaimer: I have yet to upgrade my 207 so I really don't know if indeed this firmware fixes any bugs but I'll accept that it does not for the sake of the argument) but the hardware design of the module did not anticipate the need for a firmware replacement and ADDAC gave this cumbersome solution as DIY option. Correct me if I'm mistaken but wasn't there an option to ship the module back to ADDAC to get it fixed?


Quote:
All this was exacerbated by an absence of communication instead of any kind of helpful dialogue - it seemed like we just bought an expensive lemon and are stuck with it. I don't think I'd be in Eurorack if this was a typical experience, and I don't think anybody would have bought this module if they knew this would happen. I think it's entirely misplaced to be angry at customers who have every right to be upset by this whole experience.


I'm happy to read that you haven't had any bad experiences with any other manufacturer before but it so happens that I have and some of troubles I've run into deemed modules unusable. One time I had to wait for a specific manufacturer to ship me a replacement board. It took a very long time to get this done and said manufacturer still thinks it was my fault that his module broke down out of the blue and claims I plugged the power backwards, which was not the case. Shit happens all the time in Euroland - not being aggravated about it doesn't mean we're forgiving, just patient. Additionally stating that your sour lemon doesn't amount to nothing is a null point as: a) there is plenty of functionality in that module to overshadow any other quantizer out there right now b) you can always ask for a refund

As I said to meatbeatz my post's intent was not to undermine the fair disappointment voiced by owners of the 207. Do not forget that I am also an owner of the 207 module, so in a sense "I'm with you guys". What I'm trying to avoid is reading more posts that make very strong logical fallacies: yes, the lack of communication from Andre is what has given rise to the voice of dissent and there is no good enough excuse for that. I won't allow my fanboy status to cloud my better judgement, but I will not stand by when I read claims that ADDAC modules might break down in the near future and Andre won't give a shit about it. This has not been the case for every other ADDAC module up until now and stating that this single precedent sets the tone of how ADDAC operates is not right and shouldn't be tolerated. Has anyone tried communicating with Andre about any other issues? If so please state the case, that's what I said before and I'll say it again.

Do not undermine the flame-mentality that can be driven by these occasions. This thread is in good standing and has reached a good conclusion, ADDAC took the cry to heart and will be working on making a stable firmware. Let's drive our point across by being constructive about it and making suggestions or by posting about specific bugs we encounter.
Riggar
Well I’m with Paranormal on this. Let’s keep it civil and reasonably constructive – the salient points have been well made – and hopefully, taken note of. We ALL really do want to have the 207 working as intended.

Given it’s now recognised that the 207 needs re-written firmware – that’s a pretty tough call in anybody’s book – to get to that point – you’ve got to have gone through all the possible permutations. So we need to face this together, a re-write is never easy, never smooth and there may be some angst along the way. But hopefully we’ll get there and that’ll be a good day!
Fastus
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Correct me if I'm mistaken but wasn't there an option to ship the module back to ADDAC to get it fixed?

Being stateside, I rather thought this would be a non-starter due to shipping /insurance costs. What I had hoped was that Andre would supply a timely solution to US distributors. As it is, I'm near Control Brooklyn, but I understand communication has been 'sporadic' at best.

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
a) there is plenty of functionality in that module to overshadow any other quantizer out there right now b) you can always ask for a refund


Actually the quantizer is at the shop awaiting a fix (which is only a tad better than being in Portugal awaiting a fix.) I would indeed take a refund if it was available, that was never explicitly stated.

If there's any silver lining, this incident pointed me to exploring the Arduino - it's just that when more experienced users were having difficulties even loading the update, I thought it best left to professionals.
Paranormal Patroler
I'm going for this: https://www.tindie.com/products/hotchk155/usb-ttl-programmer/

I'm yet unsure whether the 207 uses PIC's but I'll have to check eventually. If that's the case I'll have to get an Arduino but that is never a bad thing. hihi
etherline
meatbeatz wrote:


Has anyone had contact with ADDAC recently?

seriously, i just don't get it


Today I received an (unprompted) update on the status of my order. I hope it is a sign that others will also receive some news on their enquiries.
stevenb
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
I'm going for this: https://www.tindie.com/products/hotchk155/usb-ttl-programmer/

I'm yet unsure whether the 207 uses PIC's but I'll have to check eventually. If that's the case I'll have to get an Arduino but that is never a bad thing. hihi


I successfully updated my 207 on both Mac and PC using this adaptor:
http://www.frys.com/product/6997547
I did have to install the FTDI driver on both Mac & PC for it to work.

There was some confusion in the instructions about which way to hook up the wires from the programmer to the 207. What worked was hooking up my wires so Tx on the programmer went to Rx on the 207 and the RX on the programmer went to TX on the 207. The instructions said to hook up Rx to Rx and Tx to Tx. Andre had stated that this was proper wiring of you are using an Arduino to do the programming. I don't believe having the wires reversed could cause any damage.

The timing of turning on power to the module vs starting the download to the module was a little odd, but ultimately not a big deal. Andre's Mac programming app worked well for me.

I look forward to the next 207 update. I'm sure the code is fairly complicated. I suggest ADDAC take their time and do a thorough job. I do software/hardware QA for a living and have a good feel for the scope of their task.
meatbeatz
stevenb wrote:
The timing of turning on power to the module vs starting the download to the module was a little odd, but ultimately not a big deal. Andre's Mac programming app worked well for me.


With the Mac app did you connect the wires TX>RX and RX>TX or was this with the PC method? IIRC the wires were connected differently for the MAC app and PC method. Did you notice any improvement with the new firmware installed?
monads
I hope my postings weren't insinuating ADDAC modules would break in 6mos-2yrs timeframe. If so, I apologize. I was merely referring to the lack of communication, IF, something should go awry regardless of module reference.

My conclusion of this thread has brought back and I'm on board with my original ADDAC acquisition modules thumbs up
ADDAC System
Dear all,

We decided to create 2 new threads to follow this one:

For any Firmware upgrades related issues: errors, problems, connections, etc:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1689582#1689582

For any bug reporting on the latest Firmware (vs:J3):
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1689585#1689585


This way we'll be able to keep a record of FAQs that will help everyone in the process!


Regarding this thread and all the points that have been made, we will never be able to apologize enough for this whole situation.
The customer is always right, it was our fault and thanks for baring with us in this process. We learned a lot from it and will take extreme care so that this will not repeat itself!

We've been creating Eurorack modules for more than 5 years now, more than 10 have firmwares, and this is the only module that had bugs (apart from the obvious black sheeps here and there) we had never before needed to correct firmwares and totally trust our solutions.

I assume my bad communication, it's totally my fault here.
Somehow i believe it's in my blood, many times i go hermit on my workbench and fall into this black hole where i forget about the world.
I do this in order not to loose my train of thoughts, i get so deep in it that most times i stop only when i'm exhausted or starving, making breaks to eat and sleep only and this can go for days, weeks... So don't get me wrong, i take all our work very seriously, been working pretty much 6 to 7 days a week for more than 3 years now totally out of passion, driven by all your feedback! Still feeling strong, more knowledgeable that ever and more enthusiastic about it every day!
And while on personal matters i have to confess that i've fallen in love recently (<3) (it doesn't happen very often) and as it's expected this last couple months i didn't work as much as i regularly do. (shy)

Also would like to mention that although slowly but following all your feedback we've been improving this firmware upgrade process to a minimum of hassle on the user side.
Created and corrected our Upgrade Guide as more questions arise making it clearer. And created the OSX App for mac users, Win users already had one.

Regarding Firmware issues we've been reading through all threads and emails you all sent us and corrected everything you reported.
After all maybe re-writing everything won't be necessary yesterday i fixed the last couple issues reported. Most of the issues were logic special cases that had been overlooked at.

Thanks NS4W for all your valuable bug descriptions and new Firmware testing!
We know how bug report sometimes can be hard, it's mostly about finding an issue and being able to reproduce it at all times, so when something happens that you have a feeling that it's not right try looking for how it happened and see if you can reproduce the error again and again, then share it with us, if we can reproduce it here we can fix it asap!
This module works in such an intricate way and can be used in so many different ways that maybe it was optimism on our behalf to believe it was right the first time. It was not lack of testing but we just weren't looking at some sides of it when after all this is Eurorack land where no connection is wrong and should expect the unexpected from all users. We'll have more exhaustive testing in the future, that's for sure!

Regarding the firmware update process,most manufacturers use different platforms to develop their products, the solution we now offer is the easiest one possible for the platform we use in our developments, we couldn't have implemented it in any other way.
The good side of it is that the necessary Serial to USB hardware and the upgrade process can be used on ALL of our hybrid modules, old or new.

For future modules we'll keep using this same method but without the need to power the synth at the precise moment of pressing the upgrade firmware button, making it all far simpler, we know that sometimes the power on timing can be challenging, at least until you get a feel of it.
This solution was created only to avoid shipping the module back to us which, of course, is always the B option.

We're also now stocking tested Serial to USB devices and we'll ship it to our distributors in next weeks, Control already has one on it's way!

BTW. We haven't sold any 207 since the first major reports have appeared, even halted a whole batch that was in production!


Once again terribly sorry for this whole process and many thanks for baring with us!

all the very best
andre
stevenb
meatbeatz wrote:
stevenb wrote:
The timing of turning on power to the module vs starting the download to the module was a little odd, but ultimately not a big deal. Andre's Mac programming app worked well for me.


With the Mac app did you connect the wires TX>RX and RX>TX or was this with the PC method? IIRC the wires were connected differently for the MAC app and PC method. Did you notice any improvement with the new firmware installed?


The connecting of the wires has nothing to do with PC or MAC, but is determined by the hardware USB>TTL Breakout Board . In my case I used the same Breakout Board:
http://osepp.com/products/breakout-board/osepp-ftdi-breakout-board/
on both Mac and PC and in both cases the wiring was Tx > Rx and RX >Tx.

Steven
Summa
ADDAC System
thumbs up
meatbeatz
ADDAC System wrote:
And while on personal matters i have to confess that i've fallen in love recently (<3) (it doesn't happen very often) and as it's expected this last couple months i didn't work as much as i regularly do. (shy)


Say no more! love hihi

Thanks Andre. Nice to have you back. No hard feelings. thumbs up
meatbeatz
stevenb wrote:
The connecting of the wires has nothing to do with PC or MAC, but is determined by the hardware USB>TTL Breakout Board . In my case I used the same Breakout Board:
http://osepp.com/products/breakout-board/osepp-ftdi-breakout-board/
on both Mac and PC and in both cases the wiring was Tx > Rx and RX >Tx.


d'oh! Sorry I confused Mac/PC with USB>Serial/Arduino. I thought I read that the instructions had the connections the wrong way round for one or the other but this may have been corrected since. I may have even updated and not realized as there was no clear indicator of a successful update. Not to confuse matters anymore, I will erase all memory of my attempts to update the 207 and start afresh.
duck1887
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Apart from wiggler gottberg facing issues with his case (and not contacting Andre about it) nobody else had any issues with any other modules as far as this thread is concerned. If that is the case and Andre wasn't responsive to that please be specific of your problem


I bought a 601 in ... July was it? and had to send it back for repair, and have not heard back even after a couple of emails. I say this not to scold Andre but simply for reference. I accept Andre's explanation and send him my best wishes. All will be forgiven once I get Big Red back in my case again ... love
simonhold
So I just read this entire thread.
And I did so because I have yet to receive ANY response from ADDAC on any of my emails regarding the 207.

Whatever the case may be for not being able to, or choosing not to communicate with customers, I find it appalling to have to find out elsewhere, on my own incentive, that their might be reasonable reasons why I haven't received any response. At the very least an email response pointing towards the existence of this thread, or even forum would indicate ADDAC actually cares about their 207 users.

I don't want to have to browse several sub-forums to even get half a grasp on where ADDAC currently are with fixing this module, if all of that could be right there on their own website, their online home base. If you have a small company with a small team, consolidating your communication is a great time saver.

All I am really interested in knowing is when my ADDAC 207 will function as advertised and what steps I need to undertake to make that happen. And I want to find out about it from ADDAC via an email pointing to their ADDAC 207 page on their website. Where do I sign up for that?
simonhold
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