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Linear slew on Wiard 300 series.
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Author Linear slew on Wiard 300 series.
chamomileshark
I'm trying to understand if it's possible to get linear slew on the Wiard 300 series to create portmento - if you don't have the log/ linear mod on the Oscillator.

I've seen stuff that say you can't do it with an envelator but then I saw this from Muff himself

" i think you'd need a 300 series unit....which is two of these plus a VC mixer. I patch the pair together as an ADSR and then use the mixmod input to insert the signal being slewed.... "

I couldn't get that to work.

Any ideas?
drumsofd00m
I don't see any other way than said mod either (which is a fantastic mod, thanks again Cary). I also recall Grant commenting on it in a thread where the Envelator was compared to the MN Maths.

Maybe Mike meant patching one of the slew limiters/ AR envelopes into the crossfader on the Dual Envelator, replacing one of the prepatched Envelators. That way you'd get an ADSR composed of a VC, but strictly gated AD section and a non-VC, but smoothly following AR section. Whatever you might want to do with that! :) (Don't forget ADSR with the Envelator is always a little fiddly because you have two mixed attack slopes.)

(In fact you could even use a slew limiter for the AD portion - namely when you don't need a long attack slope and can just feed the slew limiter a trigger pulse instead of a sustained gate or other prolonged CVs; IIRC it can't be *too* short tho because there is a little default slew.)
Muff Wiggler
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Add User to Ignore List
I don't know where that post is, but I may have made a mistake

not at my system at the moment but from memory I've done "kinda slew" with the Classic VCO by feeding the signal into the Gate input and then taking it from of the Envelope output - the output will follow the peaks in the signal at a rate that can be adjusted with the Attack and Release pots

Hope this helps!
drumsofd00m
Muff Wiggler wrote:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Add User to Ignore List
I don't know where that post is, but I may have made a mistake

not at my system at the moment but from memory I've done "kinda slew" with the Classic VCO by feeding the signal into the Gate input and then taking it from of the Envelope output - the output will follow the peaks in the signal at a rate that can be adjusted with the Attack and Release pots

Hope this helps!


That's because that submodule *is* just a slew limiter, no matter what the legending says. Ok - albeit for positive going CVs only. IIRC the manual says it rectifies negative CVs - supposedly for better use as an envelope follower, but I haven't gotten this to work yet, and my impression is rather that negative CVs just get cut off to zero.

Maybe there should be a sticky that clarifies the submodules - this, the onboard VCA and the crossfader seem to be confused one way or another quite frequently.
slow_riot
Yes, substituting a gate feeding the AR envelope with the signal you want to slew on the oscillator modules is what you want to use. To the best of my knowledge the lin/log mod *adds* log where linear is the "native" mode. I also think this changes the response going *into* the VCA and not the response of the AD/slew itself.

Cary will be able to say for sure.

I would be more concerned with DC accuracy using it in that way as I am not 100% if it was designed with that in mind. One option could be to use the Sequantizer as a quantizer and use the glide ?
Muff Wiggler
yeah you are absolutely right, which is why I say "quasi slew"

by "follow the peaks" i do mean just the positive ones (not the 'troughs') so I do suspect that it's doing half-wave rectification, and yes, this does make sense in terms of envelope following and the Subotnik "player piano" method.

I'm damn certain I've done it with Envelators, or actually maybe mixo's, but it's been a while. I'll have a play when I get a chance and see what I can figure out
drumsofd00m
P.S. to my second post - and the lin/ log mod chamomileshark mentioned is simply a switch wired to the respective jumper on the PCB, similar to the switches you (Muff Wiggler) have on your 1200 series' rack ears, but implemented as a push-pull pot (in the VCA VOL pot, strangely, not in the A or R pots as would be expected - one reason for the aforementioned confusions IMO).


P.P.S. No slow_riot, the AR and the VCA are still independent after the mod, aside from the - fully optional/ removable - prepatching.

P.P.P.S. That also means you can just change the jumper for linear slew - no mod is necessary unless you want to be able to change it from the front panel, which is of course that much more convenient.
slow_riot
drumsofd00m wrote:


P.P.S. No slow_riot, the AR and the VCA are still independent after the mod, aside from the - fully optional/ removable - prepatching.


I think you misunderstood me or I didn't communicate properly. My point is that I believe the mod changes what the VCA sees and thus how it responds, rather than the AR response, this may explain why the switch is on the VCA pot, although I could be wrong about this.
chamomileshark
ok, just to be clear - I can do normal portmento using my modded oscillators

pitch CV -> gate (on oscillator)
AR Env (on oscillator) -> 1 volt input.

I use the pull pot and get simple portmento.


But I was wondering if the Envelator could do it - I think the related Serge DUSG and VCS can. Seems it can't.

@ Muff - the original I picked up was here

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=115707&sid=ac2cf304c 0b7ec4ad680237df18a3986
slow_riot
Definitely no dice on Envelator, Mixolator front. If you are really in a pinch and have a spare DC coupled low pass filter (quite sure the Borg, Boogies are) that could get a slew with very low cutoff using audio in for your control and audio out for the lagged OP.
drumsofd00m
slow_riot wrote:
drumsofd00m wrote:


P.P.S. No slow_riot, the AR and the VCA are still independent after the mod, aside from the - fully optional/ removable - prepatching.


I think you misunderstood me or I didn't communicate properly. My point is that I believe the mod changes what the VCA sees and thus how it responds, rather than the AR response, this may explain why the switch is on the VCA pot, although I could be wrong about this.


Can't speak for others, but in my WFCs from Cary the switch/ push-pull pot changes the slew limiter slopes. Not the VCA response.

I almost never use the slew limiter as an envelope to control the VCA, because I don't use a lot of AR type envelopes generally. Most of the time I'll control the VCA from an Envelator (because I like its response, which I think is always exponential, better than the Mixolator's at any of its ZMOD settings) and use the slew limiter to process pitch or random CVs.

There is one advantage to the somewhat confusing p/p switch placement - the response can be switched without altering either slew time setting one bit. An inadvertently bumped VCA setting is often easier to recover precisely, or often less crucial in the first place, than a time-axis relevant parameter.
drumsofd00m
chamomileshark wrote:
ok, just to be clear - I can do normal portmento using my modded oscillators

pitch CV -> gate (on oscillator)
AR Env (on oscillator) -> 1 volt input.

I use the pull pot and get simple portmento.


Interesting, my modded WFCs won't do that. There's pretty strong DC offset (or rather rescaling, IIRC) as soon as the pitch CV goes through the slew limiter, regardless of response type (expo/ log (?) only adds the "infinity" problem to the offset). So when used for critical pitches, I'll have to retune the sequencer, or retweak the attenuation of whatever other CV I'm using, after deciding to use lag.
Muff Wiggler
^^^ mine works like Mark's (I have the modded WFC and CVCOs as well)
drumsofd00m
Ok, I have an idea what Mike may have been talking about.

Patch a dummy plug (or a DC source like a joystick axis) into MIX1, i.e. override the left Envelator in the crossfader. You will not use this left section. Patch the CV that you want to slur into *both* the right Envelator's Gate input and into MIX MOD. Set MIX fccw and MIXMOD (the knob) fcw. Now dial in a bit of attack and decay on the right Envelator and set it to AR mode. MIX OUT will now be your lag processed CV in a crude way.

Why: your source CV will trigger the Envelator when it goes above 1.5V (if I remember the manual correctly). It will also fade in that Envelator, which in AR has a 0-10V range, proportionally to its own value. If A and D (=R) are set to minimum, you just get a crude throughput of the source CV that gets "noise gated" when it goes below 1.5V. But with noticeable slope times, you get, well, noticeable lag on your throughput.

I'm either completely deluded and it's way too late or I just came up with a working patch entirely in my mind.
You overseas guys still have a few hours of the day left so I'll leave it to you to actually try it out. Good night!


Edit: first partial mistake noticed - since this method is additive a) you'll get offset like I mentioned with regards to my WFCs' ARs, and b) actually don't set MIXMOD fully cw.
slow_riot
drumsofd00m wrote:

Can't speak for others, but in my WFCs from Cary the switch/ push-pull pot changes the slew limiter slopes. Not the VCA response.


Mark's response above indicates this to be the case as well.

I would have thought there would be quite a lot of offset as well when using it for pitch.

About response, I'm tuning my VCAs for index control to have exponential response, this makes the most sense to me, as if the ear perceives volume changes logarithmically, then the VCA needs to "correct" for this. And so, a linear curve from an envelope into an exponential VCA will mean you can hear a linear curve.
slow_riot
drumsofd00m wrote:

I'm either completely deluded and it's way too late or I just came up with a working patch entirely in my mind.


No that's a very good idea! The large offset on the MixMod crossfader might make it difficult in practice but it's definitely sound in theory.
chamomileshark
drumsofd00m wrote:
Ok, I have an idea what Mike may have been talking about.

Patch a dummy plug (or a DC source like a joystick axis) into MIX1, i.e. override the left Envelator in the crossfader. You will not use this left section. Patch the CV that you want to slur into *both* the right Envelator's Gate input and into MIX MOD. Set MIX fccw and MIXMOD (the knob) fcw. Now dial in a bit of attack and decay on the right Envelator and set it to AR mode. MIX OUT will now be your lag processed CV in a crude way.

Why: your source CV will trigger the Envelator when it goes above 1.5V (if I remember the manual correctly). It will also fade in that Envelator, which in AR has a 0-10V range, proportionally to its own value. If A and D (=R) are set to minimum, you just get a crude throughput of the source CV that gets "noise gated" when it goes below 1.5V. But with noticeable slope times, you get, well, noticeable lag on your throughput.

I'm either completely deluded and it's way too late or I just came up with a working patch entirely in my mind.
You overseas guys still have a few hours of the day left so I'll leave it to you to actually try it out. Good night!


Edit: first partial mistake noticed - since this method is additive a) you'll get offset like I mentioned with regards to my WFCs' ARs, and b) actually don't set MIXMOD fully cw.


Nice idea,can't get it to work. Maybe it's just me though
slow_riot
Yes it seems a bit kludgey but it could be the start of something workable.

Did you try using a filter? A filter is a whole module dedicated to slew!
drumsofd00m
Gave it a try and it works. Wanted to post an MP3 but lost the post by being blocked after hitting Submit, like during the crash in January. Looks like I should start using the forum like email in the old days before auto-save: create a text file first... ;-) For Mike: CloudFlare Ray ID: 1bcc6e2544b00f75

Yes, crude, but very usable - unless you need a slurred thru of a precise pitch, because of the offset Mark & I anticipated. I.e. good for Krell/ FX sweeps or computery sounds, even nonlinear sweeps with break points are possible. Tweak MIX and MIXMOD to move to and from the original CV, the fcw/ fccw settings I proposed are too extreme. Careful with A and D, one thing the Envelator is not good at is easy adjustments in the most musical ca. 0.7 - 2 sec range and you might swallow/ miss incoming changes.
drumsofd00m
P.S. This is fun - coming up with patches in theory way before actually trying them. Probably even helps to understand the synth better. Will do more often. Any other challenges? :-)
slow_riot
I think that's a good idea. Grant was always really against writing manuals as they restricted the vision of what *could* be achieved but a living patch repository can only assist matters. It's also necessary on the Wiard as the system does have some limitations, but that is the birthplace of creativity.
carygrace
drumsofd00m wrote:


Can't speak for others, but in my WFCs from Cary the switch/ push-pull pot changes the slew limiter slopes. Not the VCA response.



Yes, I can confirm that to my knowledge this is correct in all cases, unless someone has modded or changed the actual VCA.

Any switch can be connected to the appropriate position on the board; push-pull switch pots are just a convenient way to make it fit on the existing panel. As to which pot, it's on the VCA pot because that is a 50k pot, as is the push-pull pot (which is also used elsewhere), and the A and R pots are 1M.
drumsofd00m
Thanks for the background info, Cary.

Here's a new challenge: is there a way to apply some true wogglin' to a CV without adding a general offset to the CV, i.e. so that it can still be used for precise pitch purposes (unlike my slew limiter patch)?

Not talking about just adding a sync'ed and VCA'd sine wave from a CVCO or WFC to the CV (in the Mixolator's X1 and X2 channels or in a Hinton SwitchMix/ PinMix for better pitch retention). It has to be *the* Woggled CV. But without the random *base* offset.

At first I was almost certain it's impossible because what you add, you add. Can't do a karaoke cut from a hard panned Beatles record either. But what about AC coupling the woggling? E.g. with an Omni Filter, which IIRC doesn't go below 16 or 20 Hz even in lopass mode. Or with a Borg/ Borg 2 in BP or HP mode. But I suspect the area between removing the offset and finding a Woggle Time that stays above the threshold could be slim. And the filters might introduce some offset themselves. So, any attempts, improvements or alternatives?

As for why the hassle: because the Woggle CV is much more alive than the VCO sine.
Of course we could modulate the VCO with the WB's Smooth CV to get it closer, but I'm looking for something more direct/ a reduction rather than an addition.


BTW Cary, when I try to clock the WB from the old 311's gate buttons, this only works the first time after making the connection, contrary to clocking from e.g. the Borg LFOs. I.e. I get no woggling from the second push onwards. Is there a way to amend this?
slow_riot
There are very few things that I am an expert on this world, but vibrato with the Woggle CV is one of them! It is also one of my favourite things. I do agree there is something about it that takes it out of the realm of simple vibrato and into a far more alive kind of modulation.

The secret, I have found, it to adjust the quantities of smooth range and woggle range, which changes how the Woggle VCO will lock and plays a bit part (as big as smooth time and woggle time) in getting useable vibrato characteristics. I use the FC1 attenuated input for it.

The other secret is to patch the smooth VCO from the Woggle Bug you are using into the sync input, and add just a fraction to the sync knob. This means that as well as the oscillator bowing to the tune of the lonely Bug, it will also subtly break up as well.
drumsofd00m
slow_riot wrote:
The other secret is to patch the smooth VCO from the Woggle Bug you are using into the sync input, and add just a fraction to the sync knob. This means that as well as the oscillator bowing to the tune of the lonely Bug, it will also subtly break up as well.


Don't you mean the Woggled Tone? Either way, that sounds like a terrific idea, and finally some good use for my Wiard's soft sync.
Now I just need to figure out how to make the Woggle Bug a bit more reactive to/ dependent on external triggering, so that my wogglin' may commence upon pressing a key or pushing a button.
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