Jürgen Haible (SOST! Tau ... VOCODER re-run!)

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evengravy
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I can help...

Post by evengravy » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:37 am

Hi,

I just reverse engineered the krautrock phaser pcb, have built version one and ironed out I believe all of the errors except one. (board seems to work fine without it, more of a question than an error)

I was coming on here to ask a question about this actually and saw your thread, I would gladly send the files (sprint layout, not eagle.. I believe jurgen used this too no? certainly looks like it from the designs on his old site)

I had the version one pcb manufactured in iTead and it came back beautifully, I'll post a pic later.

So in a nutshell, I can send you the files, either sprint or gerber whichever is easiest (there was a lot of work to re-design this as the schematic has errors) but I have one question that maybe someone with a board can help me rectify/check (I've posted it in another thread.)

Also, I have maybe 60% of the original Living VCO board done in eagle too, somewhere, I would gladly provide the work in progress to you if you wish. However, having photos of the boards, and using sprint is probably going to be quicker (ignore the pun) for me at least.

So glad this is moving forward again. I will take some pictures of my prototype krautrock pcb to show you later (got the lamps dimming via LFO and Manual last night yay!) and will have a dig on my hard drive for the living vco eagle files.

Feel free to PM me for the files nord. Also count me in on reverse engineering future work time permitting.

Regards,

Just so it is clear I designed these for myself, and because I thought it was important to capture not just the circuits Jurgen designed, but also his layouts which are an art themselves...

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Post by Pfurmel » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:00 am

Definitely get in touch with OldCrow. If I remember correctly he was a good friend of Jurgen. Surely the gerbers are stored somewhere.

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nordlead
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Post by nordlead » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:22 am

Dave Kendall wrote:I have an unbuilt FS1a frequency shifter (2-board set) that I could scan and send...
Hey Dave, thanks, that would actually be great (whenever it's convenient for you).

Actually, I'm now trying to gather a collection of pcb scans that could be used as reference or for cloning / rebuilding, so if any of you have unsoldered Haible boards, it would be great if you could send scans by email (rc at randomsource dot net) :help: :tu:

A few wigglers contacted me who have started to capture schematics or even do layouts - some even in Eagle. Again I'm trying to sort out what might be available before starting from scratch, so if you have any schematics or layouts (ideally Eagle, but others can perhaps be converted), in whatever state, it could really help and would be much appreciated. :guinness:

Also, the amount of feedback and messages is overwhelming and I very much appreciate all that input, however, some of it may slip through or I may not be able to respond in time etc. so I hope for your understanding and please feel free to hit me again.
Random*Source: Serge, JHaible & more ... (also on facebook.com/randomsource)

(please contact me through email rather than pm: rc at randomsource . net - thanks!)

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synchromesh
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Post by synchromesh » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:42 am

nordlead wrote:synchromesh, it would be quite helpful if you could send me scans (top and bottom) of those boards (except for the Triple Chorus, got those already thanks to LEDman)
No problem, I'll get on to that. :tu:

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Paradigm X
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Post by Paradigm X » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:03 am

Hey, great news!

ive got an untouched krautrock phaser pcb i can scan if you like?

Really wanted the tau pipe too, hoping it can be done with that3x0 chips.

The flangers were also amazing.

:party:

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evengravy
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Post by evengravy » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:39 pm

anyone fancy reverse engineering the living vocoder.....

Definitely wouldn't be an afternoon job, I'm game to chip in if anyone has one...

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emdot_ambient
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Post by emdot_ambient » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:06 pm

Yeah, I was going to say the simplest thing to start with probably would be the vocoder...**ducks**

:hihi:

Seriously, it's great to know things are happening even if there's a good ways to go.

Thanks for stepping up and taking charge of this. It's strange to think how long it's been since JH left us. :waah:

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oldcrow
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Post by oldcrow » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:36 am

Hey folks, I have a couple boards I did some years ago in Eagle for myself (Living VCOs, Quadra Phaser) that I can contribute. I will work on some others as time permits. Sadly I have nothing archived from JH personally.

--Crow
/**/

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cj3000
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Post by cj3000 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:13 am

Hi

I have scans from the fs1 and the tau. I did a version of the sost 2years ago. But didn't build it so far. I can send you the eagle files.
Christoph.

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kvitekp
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Post by kvitekp » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:13 am

I have original JH Living VCO's schematics captured here, the only addition is hard sync circuitry. Schematics verified with breadboard build.

I also created 5U "one VCO per board + driver" variant of JH Living VCOs with THAT300 instead of CA3046 and tri/sine convrter added to the driver pcb, see here.

/Peter
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Post by sonicwarrior » Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:37 am

Paradigm X wrote:Really wanted the tau pipe too, hoping it can be done with that3x0 chips.
It can be done. Actually I build an original JH Tau with THAT 300 chips using Fischer converter sockets. It was a hassle though so it would be very nice if a new PCB would be compatible with THAT 300 chips as they are cheaper (they are quad instead of dual) and easier to get than SSM2210 type dual chips (like the LS318).
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nordlead
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Post by nordlead » Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:59 am

Again thanks for your feedback, input and support. :guinness:

oldcrow thanks for the offer :tu:

Christoph, SOST is high on my wish list :hyper: , sent you a pm.

Peter, (I've tried to respond to your offer on FB but I'm not sure if that came through.) Your LVCO version looks excellent, again the Eagle files would save quite a lot of work.

sonicwarrior, Paradigm X, I fully agree, I've been contemplating various options for the Tau, including CA3046 (in SOIC), SSM2212, THAT300 and also think the LM394 does not make much sense any more. I might be able to get the boards pre-assembled with the CA3046 (or any other SMD chip), looking into that. I have no idea how (apart from the specs) a supermatched like the SSM2212 would compare soundwise to the CA3046. Good to hear the THAT300 also works well especially as it is (still?) available in DIP, so it's a nice option (maybe the best...)
Random*Source: Serge, JHaible & more ... (also on facebook.com/randomsource)

(please contact me through email rather than pm: rc at randomsource . net - thanks!)

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Paradigm X
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Post by Paradigm X » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:40 am

THere are short comparisons on the bridechamber site;

http://bridechamber.com/JH_Tau_Pipe.html

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frozenkore
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Post by frozenkore » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:10 am

I'm sure you've already been here, but a lot is still on his site here. There don't appear to be trace layouts, but schematics, overlays, and boms are all there. Again, sorry if you've already gotten everything from here. I didn't see mention to it.
Cheers!
Brian

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Post by evengravy » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:24 am

Just a heads up but there's at least two errors/omissions with Jurgens Living VCO schematic from his site vs. the PCB that he sold. I didn't get around to the driver element so can not comment on that.

R40 50k trimmer (R35 on your schematic I believe kvitekp should be referenced to GND not -vb) This was confirmed vs a PCB and can be seen on Jurgens own resdef file from his site (look at top left of the board, PW1 ADJ)

There was also some issue with R6 not being referenced or having a value assigned to it on the schematic. (this resistor connects to base of Q4 through R32 1Meg on original schematic, that would appear to be R27 on yours kvitekp although this resistor is missing from yours) other users confirmed it was a 10k to GND. On the original resdef from Jurgens this R6 resistor is physically located below the R32 resistor, near to Q6 and Q4.

Probably not majorly influential but worth noting...
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sonicwarrior
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Post by sonicwarrior » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:25 pm

nordlead wrote:Good to hear the THAT300 also works well especially as it is (still?) available in DIP, so it's a nice option (maybe the best...)
It is still available, e.g. from Mouser = 887-300P14-U
For Germany: http://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/THAT ... sD0LEP8LTK

Edit: I attached pics of the back of my THAT 300 Tau and of the MOTM connector mod. I didn't save the source so I don't from whom those pics came.

Edit2: It seems the pics are not automatically embeded (at least in Opera 28.0 which somehow sucks compared to 12.x). How did you do that?
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aladan
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Post by aladan » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:48 pm

I spent a year buying or borrowing every JH PCB I could, scanned both sides of each one very carefully at 600dpi, then checked to make sure they were all legible. A lot of the scans I found online were lower quality or poorly done - but mine are near perfect. When I get home tonight I'll list what I have and send them through.

Cheers,
A.

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Post by sduck » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:32 pm

If you still need a scan of the Son Of Storm Tide, I've got it, although it's not 600 dpi, probably more like 150.

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aladan
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Post by aladan » Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:13 am

I have:
* FS-1A (main & secondary boards)
* Interpolating Scanner
* Polymoog Resonator
* Son of Storm Tide
* Subtle Chorus (BBD & main boards)
* Triple Chorus

I have attached a zip file of them, and I've also uploaded it to: http://www.filehosting.org/file/details ... 0Scans.zip

Please accept my apology - they are (mostly) 300dpi, not 600dpi. I must have decided 300dpi was sufficiently clear enough when I scanned them. One or two are 'donations' from other people who wish to remain anonymous.

Cheers,
A.
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kvitekp
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Post by kvitekp » Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:39 am

Here is JH Living VCOs schematics capture: Eagle 6.5 .sch and PDF print out. Four pages: 3 x LVCO and driver. This capture has been verified by a breadboard build.
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nordlead
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Post by nordlead » Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:39 am

aladan, thanks a lot! Looks like I got scans of most boards now. :tu:

kvitekp, great thanks to you, too, I already got the VCOs in Eagle, but not the driver yet, so this fills the gap. :banana:

Just a note on the side, a few people seem to have gotten a wrong idea, like I'd put all the Haible designs in public domain (which is an interesting idea, however, I'm not in a position to do) or similar - I'm simply trying to recover the lost files that I hoped to get from Olimex in order to be able to resume production of the boards and ideally also start making some available in other formats like 4U.

So if possible please submit any contributions by email, that's also the easiest for me to respond - thanks!

Re Krautrock: here's a half technical / half practical questions: the Krautrock (like most other pcbs) is designed for 15V (regulated or 18V external), and also may not be the most ideal design to be used within a modular system due to power consumption and heat. Still, I'd still love to have one in my 4U system, even though I'm not sure how much sense that makes. That kind of relates to the supply question, if people prefer it as a standalone anyway, there's probably no need to bother about 12V adjustment, and even in a modular environment it might make sense to use the 18V option, i.e. use a separate supply. What your view / experience here, did anyone happen to experiment with 12V by any chance or actually measure power consumption?

Again thanks for your support, it's incredible to see what happened within a week! :hail: :guinness:
Random*Source: Serge, JHaible & more ... (also on facebook.com/randomsource)

(please contact me through email rather than pm: rc at randomsource . net - thanks!)

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aladan
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Post by aladan » Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:33 am

Count me in for a purchase of one of every board you make, nordlead. Most of the boards I was only able to borrow (and in some cases the loan was in return for making them up for their owner) so even though I was able to get access to them as bare boards, that doesn't mean I actually have them as modules now. Now I'm happy to put money into your pocket as thanks for having supported the Haible family by buying Jurgen's IP, and also as thanks for making the designs accessible to the DIY community once again.

Cheers,
A.

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delayed
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Post by delayed » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:48 pm

If the public is going to supply some or plenty of the work what is wrong with it being public domain? JH had all the schematics in public domain anyway. The people that wish to buy premade PCBs are going to do so anyway.

Seems if people are going to help with the layouts they should be shared. I was happy to see everyone jumping in a sharing openly.

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Post by AlanP » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:29 pm

nordlead wrote:Re Krautrock: here's a half technical / half practical questions: the Krautrock (like most other pcbs) is designed for 15V (regulated or 18V external), and also may not be the most ideal design to be used within a modular system due to power consumption and heat. Still, I'd still love to have one in my 4U system, even though I'm not sure how much sense that makes. That kind of relates to the supply question, if people prefer it as a standalone anyway, there's probably no need to bother about 12V adjustment, and even in a modular environment it might make sense to use the 18V option, i.e. use a separate supply. What your view / experience here, did anyone happen to experiment with 12V by any chance or actually measure power consumption?
Another factor is the lamps and LDR's -- heat and power aside, they're somewhat bulky and fragile, plus ambient light affects LDR's quite badly in that kind of situation. (Probably why vactrols, as opposed to roll your own LED/LDR combo's, are so common in the synth world.)

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Post by nordlead » Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:13 pm

delayed wrote:If the public is going to supply some or plenty of the work what is wrong with it being public domain?
The work is not supplied by "the public", but by Jürgen's ingenuity. Currently a handful of great wigglers kindly supports the effort to recover / recreate the files that have been lost in order to allow resume production, for which I'm very grateful (and so seem many wigglers not participating, but hoping to see the boards come back). Jürgen's work has never been in the public domain and I don't intend to change that.
delayed wrote:JH had all the schematics in public domain anyway.
That is a misconception. Putting something on a web page does not mean it's public domain. On the contrary, his schematics usually show a clear copyright notice (which is irrelevant from a legal point of view, as under German law those rights exist irrespective of such notice).
delayed wrote:Seems if people are going to help with the layouts they should be shared.
I posted the clarification above exactly to avoid any misunderstanding. Interestingly the people voluntarily working with me do not seem to share that expectation.

I've spent month to get Jürgen's work out of that legal deadlock and now a large part of my days to bring it back to life, no higher aims. Anyway, didn't intend to derail this thread, so back to the challenges ahead ...
AlanP wrote:Another factor is the lamps and LDR's -- heat and power aside, they're somewhat bulky and fragile, plus ambient light affects LDR's quite badly in that kind of situation. (Probably why vactrols, as opposed to roll your own LED/LDR combo's, are so common in the synth world.)
Guess, you're right, but that wouldn't be enough to scare me away from a Krautrock in my system - clearly there should be no light inside (or the bulbs covered) which shouldn't be a huge problem, especially not with banana jacks :nana: I'd guess 30mm or 40mm spacers should leave sufficient room. Actually I've been asked about doing a spring reverb in 4x4 / 4U more than once - that's where I'd think the no-way point is reached ;-)
Random*Source: Serge, JHaible & more ... (also on facebook.com/randomsource)

(please contact me through email rather than pm: rc at randomsource . net - thanks!)

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