power question

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22tape
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power question

Post by 22tape » Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:29 pm

hey guys. i'm bought two clatters from the squarewave parade. they run on 9v batteries. are there any problems that i should be aware of trying to run 9v battery powered modules with the doepfer diy kit#1?

thanks!

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Post by futuresoundsystems » Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:40 am

Seeing as the Doepfer kits output +/-12V, yes, you do have a problem. However, you could try and find a 78L09 voltage regulator to regulate the 12V down to 9V as long as each Clatter doesn't consume more than 100mA. If so, you'll just have to go with the chunkier 1A regulators... I've forgotten the name... :eek: :confused: :bang:
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Post by flts » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:13 am

In this case, the Clatter page says:

"wide power supply range from 4.5 volts DC to 15 volts DC"
"using different voltage power supplies will increase or decrease the range of operation respectively. so please take that into account. 9v recommended."

So yes, it'll run on +12 from the Doepfer PSU just fine, but it may sound different than when running on 9V.

In general, what futuresoundsystems said: if the module/effect specifically requires 9V, you'll need to regulate down from +12 or you may either get weird results or blow the thing up.

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Post by Luka » Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:07 am

might be cool to make a psu with 15, 12 and 9 volt lines and the run them all to your module with an insulated 3 pole rotary switch to switch between, so you will have 3 different flavours.

depends if the sound difference is worth it i guess
good time to do some tests

a multi-voltage psu is always handy to have

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Post by 22tape » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:20 pm

great, thanks for the info guys. i'm pretty new to this whole voltage thing. if the clatter is being powered by it's own 9v battery, isn't it 'independent' power-wise from the rest of the system?

since the Clatter's power supply range is from 4.5 DC to 15 volts DC, can I not just plug in CV from, say, the Zorlon Cannon to the Clatter's CV in?

thanks a bunch.

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Post by Muff Wiggler » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:23 pm

22tape wrote:can I not just plug in CV from, say, the Zorlon Cannon to the Clatter's CV in?
only if you are powering the clatter from a 12v source.

You need to make sure that any voltage (cv input, audio signal) input into a module does not exceed the voltage provided by the module's own power source. So if you power it with 9v, don't feed it a 12v signal!

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Post by 22tape » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:24 pm

even more importantly, what do i have to do with my T-Resonator? I'm in the middle of building my first modular system. and selling all of my other pedal/boxes. i just can't get rid of another T-Resonator! I was assuming that i could just buy 1/4 to 1/8 cables to route the audio in/out from the T-Res to my euro rack. is it not as straight forward as this?

thanks.

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Post by 22tape » Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:30 pm

Muff Wiggler wrote:
22tape wrote:can I not just plug in CV from, say, the Zorlon Cannon to the Clatter's CV in?
only if you are powering the clatter from a 12v source.

You need to make sure that any voltage (cv input, audio signal) input into a module does not exceed the voltage provided by the module's own power source. So if you power it with 9v, don't feed it a 12v signal!
great, thanks muff.

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Post by 22tape » Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:35 pm

quote="futuresoundsystems"]Seeing as the Doepfer kits output +/-12V, yes, you do have a problem. However, you could try and find a 78L09 voltage regulator to regulate the 12V down to 9V as long as each Clatter doesn't consume more than 100mA. If so, you'll just have to go with the chunkier 1A regulators... I've forgotten the name... :eek: :confused: :bang:[/quote]

Well, i might just scrap the clatter idea. i'm more concerned about the T-Res. Would something like this work?

http://www.pinecomputer.com/txdipopopa59.html

Does anyone know of anything cheaper?

I'll be using my euro rack as, more or less, a sound fx box...no sound generators....Does my drum machine at the beginning of the chain, and my recorders at the end of the chain also have to comply to the 12v?
thanks.

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Post by wetterberg » Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:43 pm

They only have to be running off 12v if you want them to! There's just not much point in having 9v batteries inside a modular with its own psu. I think you are confusing power needs with "runs like a module"-needs.

your biggest problem with the resonator might be the *signal* rather than the power - that it's not designed for modular-type levels, which can get VERY loud.

What is normally recommended is an attenuator+amplifier combination, bringing the signal down before it hits the pedal(the pedal may have an atten. built in?) and then a beefy amp circuit at the end to bring levels back up.

hope this helps!
Andreas

PS: I heard the A La Kart album when it first came out, through links on the Ableton forum - it's really cool. One of those that made a lasting impression.

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Post by 22tape » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:47 am

wetterberg wrote:They only have to be running off 12v if you want them to! There's just not much point in having 9v batteries inside a modular with its own psu. I think you are confusing power needs with "runs like a module"-needs.

your biggest problem with the resonator might be the *signal* rather than the power - that it's not designed for modular-type levels, which can get VERY loud.

What is normally recommended is an attenuator+amplifier combination, bringing the signal down before it hits the pedal(the pedal may have an atten. built in?) and then a beefy amp circuit at the end to bring levels back up.

hope this helps!
Andreas

PS: I heard the A La Kart album when it first came out, through links on the Ableton forum - it's really cool. One of those that made a lasting impression.
great, thanks wetterberg. makes sense now :doh:

regarding the 78L09 voltage regulator; what does connecting it entail? do i just need to do a little soldering? where would i solder the regulator? would i also need doepfer's 10-pin (or 16) to 16-pin ribbon cable?

so, yeah, the TRes has a gain knob to control the level in. so, i'm only having to worry about the audio signal level into the TRes....the stronger the signal going into the TRes, the more responsive it is. so I don't have to worry bout power supply issues?

great help guys, thanks.

wetterberg, thanks so much for the compliment. myself and the ALK collective greatly appreciate it. really. i'm not sure which ALK album you're talking bout...1 or 2? we recently released 2. pick it up here if you haven't already:

http://www.3amnoise.net/webstore/ALKstore.html

:mrgreen:
Last edited by 22tape on Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by wetterberg » Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:03 am

22tape wrote: regarding the 78L09 voltage regulator; what does connecting it entail? do i just need to do a little soldering? where would i solder the regulator? would i also need doepfer's 10-pin (or 16) to 16-pin ribbon cable?
see, this is where I'm a real hack - I'd just drop the voltage with a resistor, hehe. Seeing as the Doepfer PSU is regulated already, you wouldn't see spikes that needed a voltage regulator... but DONT take my word for it, hehe.
so, yeah, the TRes has a gain knob to control the level in. so, i'm only having to worry about the audio signal level into the TRes....actually, i've noticed that the stronger the signal going into the TRes, the more responsive it is. so I don't have to worry bout power supply issues?
Only worry about power if you are going to mount it and power it from the modular.
Now, regarding the signal (note how I treat them separately ;) ) :
I would consider getting one of these: http://www.doepfer.de/a138d.htm it'll work a treat at taking away all the gain issues you might face when plugging in pedals in the signal chain. I should be ordering one later this week, provided my diy lust doesnt get the best of me :help:

I didn't know there was a second A La Kart - thanks for the link!

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Post by futuresoundsystems » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:18 am

wetterberg wrote:
22tape wrote: regarding the 78L09 voltage regulator; what does connecting it entail? do i just need to do a little soldering? where would i solder the regulator? would i also need doepfer's 10-pin (or 16) to 16-pin ribbon cable?
see, this is where I'm a real hack - I'd just drop the voltage with a resistor, hehe. Seeing as the Doepfer PSU is regulated already, you wouldn't see spikes that needed a voltage regulator... but DONT take my word for it, hehe.
I'm not a great fan of just using resistors to drop down voltages. Regulators are a little bit more expensive, but you can be pretty certain that you're getting that exact voltage out of it, whereas with resistors you can't be 100% sure first time due to tolerances, etc. etc. Also, if you do start getting spikes, the regs will even them out.

A normal 78L voltage reg will have an input pin, a ground/0V pin and an output pin of the regulated voltage. You'd have to seperate off the +12V wire from the ribbon cable, solder it up to the 78L and then solder the 78L to ground AND the PCB.
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Post by wetterberg » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:22 am

dont get me wrong, I would go with the voltage reg as well, esp. if I was making a breadboard for it. But my point stands: The doepfer psu is already regulated. It's all down to how "casual" you are.

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Post by 22tape » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:54 pm

futuresoundsystems wrote: A normal 78L voltage reg will have an input pin, a ground/0V pin and an output pin of the regulated voltage. You'd have to seperate off the +12V wire from the ribbon cable, solder it up to the 78L and then solder the 78L to ground AND the PCB.
great info, thanks!

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Post by futuresoundsystems » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:26 am

wetterberg wrote:dont get me wrong, I would go with the voltage reg as well, esp. if I was making a breadboard for it. But my point stands: The doepfer psu is already regulated. It's all down to how "casual" you are.
I guess yeah... I'm not sure how much I trust Doepfer though. :razz:
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Post by flts » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:58 am

futuresoundsystems wrote:I guess yeah... I'm not sure how much I trust Doepfer though. :razz:
The Doepfer PSUs seem like they have quite no-bullshit construction and could actually be very trustworthy - pretty standard design, decent transformers and big enough filtering caps. The only "but" is that both PSU2 (that has an integral ring core transformer) and the DIY kit power supply (that has an external trafo) have the regulator chip(s) stashed under a huge heatsink... I haven't bothered to unscrew the heatsink to see what kind of chip it actually uses so that might be a potential issue if anything.

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Post by 22tape » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:06 pm

hey guys. what about pushing the clatter with a 12volt battery?

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Post by wetterberg » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:20 pm

22tape wrote:hey guys. what about pushing the clatter with a 12volt battery?
why would you do that? They say that 9v is recommended, so the only reason to ever use 12v is because that's what's coming out of your modular PSU anyway.

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Post by 22tape » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:08 am

wetterberg wrote:
22tape wrote:hey guys. what about pushing the clatter with a 12volt battery?
why would you do that? They say that 9v is recommended, so the only reason to ever use 12v is because that's what's coming out of your modular PSU anyway.
i don't know. i think i might be retarted. i'm not kidding.

what is the difference between powering the clatter from the 12v psu and a 12v battery? the reason i ask is because i'm not totally confident that i wouldn't fuck up my power source trying to install the regulator. i was just thinking that 12v is 12v is 12v...

i'd feel a lot more confident if i had some visuals of the steps to take when installing the regulator.....has anyone documented their efforts in installing a regulator to doepfer psu (kit 1)?

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Post by flts » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:03 am

22tape wrote:what is the difference between powering the clatter from the 12v psu and a 12v battery? the reason i ask is because i'm not totally confident that i wouldn't fuck up my power source trying to install the regulator. i was just thinking that 12v is 12v is 12v...
I think you might be mixing things up somehow.

The Doepfer PSU gives you regulated 12V directly, you don't need to drop down and regulate it anymore. But if you want 9V voltage from the same PSU for some reason, you'll need to drop it down from 12 somehow, and that's where the voltage regulator / resistor comes to play.

So, to clarify:
1) If you want to use clatter on +12V (which should work fine), you just make a cable to connect the power and ground from clatter directly to Doepfer bus board. That's it.
2) If you want to use clatter on +9V, you either use a 9V battery, or use a voltage regulator (or a correct value resistor) between the PSU and clatter.

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Post by 22tape » Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:47 pm

flts wrote:
22tape wrote:what is the difference between powering the clatter from the 12v psu and a 12v battery? the reason i ask is because i'm not totally confident that i wouldn't fuck up my power source trying to install the regulator. i was just thinking that 12v is 12v is 12v...
I think you might be mixing things up somehow.

The Doepfer PSU gives you regulated 12V directly, you don't need to drop down and regulate it anymore. But if you want 9V voltage from the same PSU for some reason, you'll need to drop it down from 12 somehow, and that's where the voltage regulator / resistor comes to play.

So, to clarify:
1) If you want to use clatter on +12V (which should work fine), you just make a cable to connect the power and ground from clatter directly to Doepfer bus board. That's it.
2) If you want to use clatter on +9V, you either use a 9V battery, or use a voltage regulator (or a correct value resistor) between the PSU and clatter.
thanks, flts.

hey does anyone have any suggestions as to how i should connect the power and ground from the clatter to the doepfer kit 1 busboard? is there some sort of plug-type solution?

thanks for all the help!

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Post by flts » Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:56 am

22tape wrote:hey does anyone have any suggestions as to how i should connect the power and ground from the clatter to the doepfer kit 1 busboard? is there some sort of plug-type solution?
You can probably get the Doepfer style (2x 8 pin I think?) ribbon connectors from pretty much any decent electronics store... At least my local one had them and it's not a huge one.

The ones I have are constructed so, that you align wires on top of the connector (or insert a whole 8 pin ribbon cable), then press the other part of the connector down on top of it so it 1) rips the shielding on the wire and makes contact 2) secures the aligned wires in place.

So if there are relatively thin wires coming out of the clatter (or if you solder them in yourself), you can probably just align the wires to +12 and one of the ground lines in the connector, clip it together and get going. Just remember to use some kind of digital multimeter or continuity tester to check that the wires are actually connected to the right pins and there are no accidental shorts between, say, +12 and 0. Takes only a minute or two and ensures that nothing will get broken - better safe than sorry.

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Post by 22tape » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:00 pm

flts wrote:
22tape wrote:hey does anyone have any suggestions as to how i should connect the power and ground from the clatter to the doepfer kit 1 busboard? is there some sort of plug-type solution?
You can probably get the Doepfer style (2x 8 pin I think?) ribbon connectors from pretty much any decent electronics store... At least my local one had them and it's not a huge one.

The ones I have are constructed so, that you align wires on top of the connector (or insert a whole 8 pin ribbon cable), then press the other part of the connector down on top of it so it 1) rips the shielding on the wire and makes contact 2) secures the aligned wires in place.

So if there are relatively thin wires coming out of the clatter (or if you solder them in yourself), you can probably just align the wires to +12 and one of the ground lines in the connector, clip it together and get going. Just remember to use some kind of digital multimeter or continuity tester to check that the wires are actually connected to the right pins and there are no accidental shorts between, say, +12 and 0. Takes only a minute or two and ensures that nothing will get broken - better safe than sorry.
fantastic! gonna try some ribbon cable. thanks much for the info!

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