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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Mannequins' Cold Mac??
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next [all]
Author Mannequins' Cold Mac??
Daisuk
I'm getting mine in a couple of days, and have grasped the general gist of it, of course, but have had to struggle quite a bit to find out exactly what input/output does what. Maybe a simple graphic showing what each input/output does would be helpful (and indeed, which jacks are inputs and which are outputs).

I had to flip between the manual and the image of the module to piece the information together. Maybe having an image of the module in the manual would make it a tad easier. Although, when receiving the module, this won't be a problem, of course - but could be a convenience for people who's interested who doesn't yet have the module. smile

Looking much forward to trying it out!
whimsical
Thanks for the feedback. A few pointers:

- The manual has a small graphic representing the relevant jacks for each section. This is at the left most edge of the manual next to the header for each section.

- All of the outputs are marked with the grey-shaded background, or a black box. This is outlined in the manuals, but will hopefully also become clearer as the line is more fully fleshed out.
Daisuk
whimsical wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. A few pointers:

- The manual has a small graphic representing the relevant jacks for each section. This is at the left most edge of the manual next to the header for each section.

- All of the outputs are marked with the grey-shaded background, or a black box. This is outlined in the manuals, but will hopefully also become clearer as the line is more fully fleshed out.


Thanks! For some reason, I didn't notice the graphic in the manual indicating the jacks when reading it on the ipad. That obviously clears things up a lot visually. smile

I have gotten my Cold Mac now. Haven't been able to play with it too much yet, but this thing clearly has potential to do a lot of weird shit. I'm still scratching my head a lot when using it though, haha. Any patch examples would be appreciated.

So far I've enjoyed just sending it a lot of CV and processing that through the survey functions and sending it further into the system. Also, although the Mac out isn't supposed to send out a mix of incoming CV, it does indeed send out a weird CV signal when there's a lot of incoming CV going into Mac.

Also, how hot a signal should you send survey to make it sweep the entire range?
whimsical
Sometimes I worry that as we work harder to through-design all of these elements, the actual content gets lost. Perhaps a 'plain text' type version might be easier to navigate. I'll look into an alternate online-only version in the future that isn't just the printed manual.

Cold Mac can certainly do a lot of 'weird shit' and some extended head scratching is appropriate. It is a module that will grow with your system and hugely multiply the functionality of any new module you add into your system.

I have received a few concerned emails about the MAC output having a 'brushing noise' appear which is definitely a small amount of DC bleeding through. This is caused by the SLOPE input being normalled from the SURVEY knob/jack and the AC-coupling being at quite a low corner frequency (16Hz).

If you wish to use the MAC output as a standard VCA make sure one of your sources is attached to the SLOPE input. Alternatively, attaching a dummy cable to the SLOPE input will defeat the Survey->MAC feedthrough.

It is interesting to note that the MAC output will provide an additional AUDIO output if you are feeding an audio signal into the SURVEY jack only. Some patch examples would definitely help here, though I don't know of a great system to illustrate said patches - recommendations / examples welcome.

Regarding Survey CV input, a 10V signal will drive the entire range. This is particularly designed to allow 10VP-P audio signals to be used and processed without clipping. Of course it can handle 0,10V or -5,+5 by simply turning the SURVEY knob.
Matos
whimsical
In regards to patch notation, I think SSF did a fantastic job with their positronic gate booklet. Clear notation, with focused use cases and well done diagrams without being module manufacturer specific.
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5258cf48e4b00d699d0ae2de/t/525ef 493e4b092595ba1df9d/1381954707235/OfficialPTGpatchBOOKver1_02.pdf
whimsical
Wow, that is pretty intense. I can't fathom how many hours such a document took to create (probably more than the circuit design). Perhaps I'll scrawl some patch diagrams on paper and post photos on a tumblr as some kind of in-between. Dead Banana Dead Banana Dead Banana
Dogma
IM gonna sit down today and work out Cold Mac...It does so much a booklet like that wold be pretty long slog to pull off well...

Gil have you seen those excellent Maths, PDO II - theres a couple of others. I think Barlov did them? Anyway they do an excellent job of showing what the various modules can do with coloured patch cables and its very clear whats going on...maybe something like that.....
T. Jervell
Personally I think one of the great things with modular is to try to figure out the modules. It's always nice with a manual that gives you a rough idea of what the module does, but when it comes to patch ideas and stuff I really have little interest in that. Regarding Cold Mac, i think the video is a good demonstration of the module. I also think that the manual is informative enough to get anyone started. That being said I (unfortunately) so not own a Cold Mac yet. But will definitely order one as soon as the next paycheck arrives It's peanut butter jelly time!
Daisuk
T. Jervell wrote:
Personally I think one of the grate things with modular is to try to figure out the modules. It's always nice with a manual that gives you a rough idea of what the module does, but when it comes to patch ideas and stuff I really have little interest in that. Regarding Cold Mac, i think the video is a god demonstration of the module. I also think that the manual is informative enough to get anyone started. That being said I (unfortunately) so not own a Cold Mac yet. But will definitely order one as soon as the next paycheck arrives It's peanut butter jelly time!


I agree, sitting down with a module trying to figure it out is one of the joys of modular. I'm not generally one to read and try patch examples, but I'm willing to make an exception for the Cold Mac. I bought it partially because it features a lot of functions I have yet to really explore/discover within the modular world (and what seems to be a massive potential in mixing them together). I'm learning it bit by bit though, and enjoying the experience. Really do wish I had a good scope though ...
Amer1231
such modules are made to be reviewed by mylarmelodies or ben hix nanners

edit: after checking the manual......I want it, I want it HARD!
cupwise
i cant tell if this is something like disting, where you have a range of possible functions it can be used for, but only one at a time, or if it's a thing where you can use multiple functions on separate ins/outs, or or if this is a thing where you would patch into and out of it like crazy and get really weird results by using all the functions together on one cv or audio in..
kwaidan
At once, it can perform multiple functions.
rytamura
Hello wigglers,

Recently I acquired Coldmac and installed it in my minimal HEK rack. Still I am trying to learn those various functions it provides, and in the meantime it is only used as a VCA. A trouble arises when adjusting the signal levels from MAC output: even if SURVEY is set at a fully CCW position, the signal can be heard at a noticeable level!

Likewise, when panning or cross-fading two signals as shown in the manual, either one of them can be heard even if the knob is at fully CW or CCW positions.

Of course applying (tiny) offset to the SURVEY input can resolve the problem. So I would like to ask the owners (or @whimsical) whether that is common, or specific to my unit.

Thanks in advance.
diasporos
whimsical wrote:
I just wanted to jump in here and clarify a few misunderstandings. Cold Mac is a pretty densely functional module so I'm not entirely surprised there's some difficulty in understanding it all, especially without having one to use in person.

@rupertlally
The CV outputs (pattern shaded jacks) are the primary function of the module. If you attach audio-rate inputs they will also be available at the MAC output through a master VCA. This means you can make complex arrangements where a number of audio inputs are fed into the left-column and summed to MAC, but additional DC inputs can also be fed in. These DC control signals won't appear at MAC output, but will affect the individual functions they're connected to.

There's a huge amount of complex interaction available here, and it definitely takes some getting familiar with, but it's opened up a lot of deep interactive capability within my system.

@Paranormal Patroler
The entire design is DC-capable except for the audio-mixing VCA output on the MAC jack. The remaining 8 outputs are all DC capable. The 'Patch Surveillance' idea is all about generating CV across all 8 outputs relative to the state of SURVEY.

I don't have a clear image of the type of patch you are talking about when you say the demo video isn't showing it. Do you mean something like a sequencer in one channel, crossfading into an LFO on another channel? I'd love to put together a new video demonstrating this kind of functionality, but want to make sure I've got a good grip on what you're looking for.

@nearly ghost
All the right-column jacks and the two centre-bottom jacks are outputs. They're indicated by the patterned background surrounding each one. All of these jacks are DC capable, and only the MAC output is AC-coupled only.

@Studio-ES
The panel labeling has not been changed as we're still using the first batch of plates. It's an unfortunate misprint, but easily fixed with a stackcable if you want to shift both OR & AND reference points in parallel.

////

Thanks for the feedback all, I'm thinking about how I can better express these concepts in the manual and videos so there's less confusion, and more excitement about this module! It's changed the way I patch, and I'm anxious for others to have that same feeling...


Thank you for this explanation I really think the Cold Mac is an ingenious module. I spent last evening exploring and it is really beautiful. Had some questions and observations about input/output possibilities:

1. Is this a good understanding? Say you use the LH column to mix eg., 2 audio signals and 4 cv signals.
The 2 audio signals will of course appear at the MAC output while the 4 cv signals will only appear on the RH column's corresponding outputs, (as well as the last two of the MIDDLE column's) and influenced by the MIDDLE column's patch choices (offset, fade, etc), as well as the PATCH SURVEY knob. Correct?

2. If you choose to only patch CV, you could either patch inputs using a combination of the LH and MIDDLE column points which appear at the PATCH SURVEY outputs and offset by the KNOB; Or, you could patch into the MIDDLE column only, take outs at the Patch survey. -in this case PATCH survey Knob represents the 'set' cv and your MID column patches tge offset? I gather that without anything patched in, Cold Mac outputs a DC offset at PATCH SURVEY outs that is influenced by the Knob position. So anything we patch into the LH or MID column interacts with or interrupts the Cold Macs default cv offset. Am I right??
Paranormal Patroler
whimsical wrote:
@Paranormal Patroler
The entire design is DC-capable except for the audio-mixing VCA output on the MAC jack. The remaining 8 outputs are all DC capable. The 'Patch Surveillance' idea is all about generating CV across all 8 outputs relative to the state of SURVEY.

I don't have a clear image of the type of patch you are talking about when you say the demo video isn't showing it. Do you mean something like a sequencer in one channel, crossfading into an LFO on another channel? I'd love to put together a new video demonstrating this kind of functionality, but want to make sure I've got a good grip on what you're looking for.


I keep getting back to this module and I just saw your post. Thank you, I'd be very happy to see a patch that would include just CV at the inputs: sequencers, LFOs, ADSRS, whatever you think would make a clear example. I'm happy to learn the module can process CV. It's now on my list of wants as it is very much in the heart of things I like to get my hands on. Very much looking forward to reporting back after I get it.
droningspaghettimonster
Mine arrived today. Been scratching my head a bit, but having a lot of fun none the less. The potential in this unit is enormous. Very happy with it.
autopoiesis
whimsical wrote:
It is interesting to note that the MAC output will provide an additional AUDIO output if you are feeding an audio signal into the SURVEY jack only. Some patch examples would definitely help here, though I don't know of a great system to illustrate said patches - recommendations / examples welcome.


This puzzles me, but I'm probably just not thinking laterally enough to grasp the implications of this. Why would someone want to put an audio signal into SURVEY and take it out of MAC? Wouldn't that just pass the signal through unchanged, with the offset knob having no effect on amplitude?

Just curious, as this clever module keeps turning up new surprising functions and I hope to account for every obvious one before I take the plunge!
whimsical
If you think of the MAC as an AC-coupled VCA (with 6-1 audio mixer), the SURVEY knob & jack are the VC-gain control for that VCA. The trick is that changing SURVEY also alters the DC-offset going into the VCA, crudely copying your input signal to the output. Turning the SURVEY knob actually changes the DC-point of the signal, so will skew your output toward positive or negative values depending. Due to the AC-coupling, this change in DC is blocked unless it moves at audio rates.

Interestingly, this is the source of the 'CV bleed' that some people have noted when trying to use Cold Mac as a standard VCA.

You could emulate this behaviour by:
- Use a VCA with the gain set to 12:00.
- Mult your audio signal to the VCA gain & audio inputs
Now changing the VCA-gain knob will emulate turning the SURVEY knob.

The idea of this patch is simply to add an additionally waveshaped output from Cold Mac, particularly if you want to expand a basic VCO.
autopoiesis
whimsical wrote:
Turning the SURVEY knob actually changes the DC-point of the signal, so will skew your output toward positive or negative values depending. Due to the AC-coupling, this change in DC is blocked unless it moves at audio rates.


I'm an utter noob to electronics, so forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds to me like you're suggesting that we'd have to wiggle the SURVEY knob at an audio-rate frequency (even our infamous fap fap fap... guy wouldn't be quick enough) for this kind of waveshaping to be apparent in the signal taken out of MAC, as long as we're sending our audio signal into the SURVEY input. Wouldn't human-speed wiggles just introduce a DC component that MAC filters out?

Anyway, I don't mean to overscrutinize a fringe use case of this module. I was just hoping that this might be the key I was missing to being able to isolate audio signals when using them for the transfer functions as well as MAC (e.g., so you can use some audio signal X for envelope following but only get some other audio signal Y out of MAC).
whimsical
Yes indeed, you're correct.

I've updated the above post to correct my error. Of note is that the gain-cv input is DC-coupled (so will be affected by a different SURVEY knob setting), while the audio inputs will effectively only see the audio signal at SURVEY cv input, but not the knob.

So the difference you hear by turning the knob is in setting the mid-point of gain modulation.

///

Regarding more general use of the module for both audio & control rate, you can really think of the MAC circuit isolated from all of the other functions. It is the only AC coupled part of the circuit, and takes the 6 left inputs, and mixes them directly (and in a somewhat isolated fashion) to the MAC VCA into the output.

Perhaps the issue is more about the discussion of AC vs DC coupling. It is important to note AC-coupling doesn't actually mean "only passes audio" it really just means there's a high-pass filter on the signal. Thus if you send a really quick transient (like an envelope) some of it will pass through the filter, in a manner directly related to how steep the signal is.

Turning the knob by hand will be blocked almost completely by the AC-coupling, but even a slow envelope will bleed, particularly if it has a snappy attack. Try sending a very slow square LFO into an audio input and you'll see plenty of bleed on the MAC output, simply because the rate of change is so high.
autopoiesis
Thanks for the explanation. My comment about isolating audio signals is more to do with how you can't remove audio signals from the MAC mix, so it's not possible to do things like simultaneously FOLLOW one audio source and mix two others into MAC without also having the FOLLOWed signal added to the mix. In retrospect, that is completely tangential to the patch we've been discussing. But since you blew my mind recently with that signal inversion via FADE trick, I figured it was worth seeking some clarity on this remark that had me puzzled.
vqlk
hello i was looking at this module, as i'm in the market for a crossfader, and / or, and envelope follower.

the manual confuses me a little though: can i just check if it can perform these functions simultaneously on different signals?
autopoiesis
vqlk wrote:
hello i was looking at this module, as i'm in the market for a crossfader, and / or, and envelope follower.

the manual confuses me a little though: can i just check if it can perform these functions simultaneously on different signals?


Yep, you can patch the two signals you want to crossfade into the 'left' and 'right' inputs and take the crossfading mix out of one of their output jacks, while at the same time patching the signal you want to envelope follow into the 'slope' input and get the cv output from the 'follow' jack in the middle column. The two functions can be used separately without the signals bleeding together, but they will all inevitably be summed together in the AC-coupled 'mac' output. It's this independent access (with the option of self-patching a complex web if you want) to so many utilities that makes Cold Mac such a great value.
dB4u
still figuring this guy out
noisejockey
Cold Mac owners: What's the Survey CV input expect, unipolar or bipolar, and what range? I didn't see that in the manual or on the various threads here.
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