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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Studio monitors!
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> General Gear Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next [all]
Author Studio monitors!
Epignosis567
Alright this is a headache. very frustrating Here's the situation:

I have a weird angular room, it won't be treated in any way, but eventually I'll be moving into a more properly treated room.
I've settled on either the Yamaha HS5 or HS7 speakers. So I'm looking for opinions from people familiar with those two. They are WAY different speakers.
My main issue at this point is should I go for the HS5 and eventually add a sub, or just go for the HS7 since the room is untreated anyway.
So I guess the question is how much of a difference is there between the Hs5s with a sub and the Hs7s in an untreated room? Anyone experienced here? I keep flip flopping just when I think I've made up my mind...
h4ndcrafted
Sub in an untreated room sounds like a very bad idea.
Epignosis567
That's what I was thinking. So you'd say HS7? I'm wondering how much I'm going to be missing with the HS7s over the HS5s w/sub in a year or so when I move to a treated room...
Gonna do some more comparing today at the shop I guess.
dude
i have a probably similar situation.

my main solution is to try not to listen too loud.
i also check mixes in car (current new car everything sounds like shit though), on laptop and on desktop and in really nice cans. all pretty different aural perspectives that help expose trouble. then i have a very trusted friend go through stuff too.

those couple things do a lot more for me than monitor choice.

that being said i use a pair of old krk rokit 8's

i will get a pair of focal twin6 Be hopefully (and likely) sooner than later.

i will qualify that my opinion is worth very little in a professional sense but also that i record tons of music very actively and have been doing so for 20 years. so i am surely not a pro engineer but i get a lot of miles out of a very simple setup of very specifically picked pieces.

and definitely don't go the sub route unless you purely want the room as very characterful (saying it nicely) listening environment.
tIB
How big is the room and what shape is it?
JohnLRice
You might consider instead the excellent Yamaha MSP5 or MSP7? They are a little bit more expensive than the HS series but besides getting favorable reviews and having a flatter top end than the HS they are front ported which will make placement easier.

I'm a long time user of the MSP series and have the MSP5's (with an Adam Sub7) as my monitors for my 5U modular and use MSP3's as my main computer monitors (I listen to a ton of music on them and finalize all of my YouTube videos on them)
nickster
Was in a similar situation as you. I went eventually for the HS7's and I'm very glad I did. These still allow you to add a sub in the future if when you move to a treated room you feel this to be necessary.
I also use Beyerdynamic DT 990 PRO cans which give me an additional reference and for the money for me are great.
felixer
Epignosis567 wrote:
in a year or so when I move to a treated room...

so don't buy speaker based on your current situation. which is far from ideal and will never sound really good. get some nice headphones (which you'll want/need anyway) and live with that for the time being.

maybe get a jecklin float? http://www.quad-musik.de/html/float.html
those are closest to the feel of loudspeakers while still eliminating any roomacoustics. may look silly but sounds great cool and easy on the ears: you can work for houres on end without feeling 'clamped' hihi
Turboblast
thoes headphones may sound great but they look f.ing ridiculous. Borderline tin foil hat.

But i do agree on a good pair of reference headphones.
digitalganesha
The good headphone suggestion is a great one. But here's the key to mixing in ANY environment - the suggestion is always made over and over to "know your room" and while that is absolutely important - it is critical to KNOW YOUR SPEAKERS/HEADPHONES. Whenever you introduce new output devices I think it's essential to listen to tons of music that you know well first. Things sound radically different on varying speakers. And for me - quality monitors sound less "full" and more 'defined.'

As for the odd shaped room... keep your desk well away from the walls, make sure the space between the speakers and side walls are pretty much equidistant and the same (don't have a window on one where there isn't one on the other) and absolutely use a small diameter sub. An 8 inch sub would be ideal. Just keep it's volume lower than you normally would, and mix at lower volumes. You should be able to get decent general mixes from all that while you wait for your new room.
Zube
I A/Bd the HS5, HS7 this past winter, I went with the HS7.

Note what JohnLRice says above, they're back ported. I've always had front ported monitors, and fell in love with the HS8 on a project last summer without realizing they were back ported (which is tough in my tight space.) if you 100% need to put them directly against a wall (and the not the specific cm distance listed in the manual) or on wall mounts, you might want the MSP7s. I have mine *right* on the edge of the specified distance, and had to use the bass dip switches on the back to dial it in. No need for the sub in my world but for others, maybe? I don't feel I'm missing anything, glad I didn't go bigger or smaller, they're a good fit for me. I'm really happy.
leeski
Turboblast wrote:
thoes headphones may sound great but they look f.ing ridiculous. Borderline tin foil hat.


^^^ FOOOK are you on the right forum???

Have you seen some of the modular stuff??

If it's fashion ya want seriously, i just don't get it

Float QA are just square in shape, jeezy hihi
felixer
Turboblast wrote:
thoes headphones may sound great but they look f.ing ridiculous.

yep Mr. Green but then again: who cares if no one is watching? they are featherlight and the great thing is: they don't touch your ears. you can wear these all day long (even with glasses on) without any sweat ... it really is a remarkable design.
they used to make an affordable dynamic version but it seems they only have rather expensive electrostatic ones now.
leeski
felixer wrote:
Turboblast wrote:
thoes headphones may sound great but they look f.ing ridiculous.

yep Mr. Green but then again: who cares if no one is watching? they are featherlight and the great thing is: they don't touch your ears. you can wear these all day long (even with glasses on) without any sweat ... it really is a remarkable design.
they used to make an affordable dynamic version but it seems they only have rather expensive electrostatic ones now.


I like them if they are away from me head applause

but these electrostatic ones must be better right. thumbs up
milkshake
h4ndcrafted wrote:
Sub in an untreated room sounds like a very bad idea.


Tip!

If you put your sub as close as possible to yourself, you will have a relatively good frequency responce. Because then the relation between direct and reflections are favorable.

An other tip!

Use 4 subs placed at the walls in the middle. This gives a very flat frequency responce. More info here. You need to adjust the individual outputs of your subs.
drip.feed
What size is your room?

My room is 10' x 16' x 8' and I bought Yamaha HS80M's. I should have bought the HS50M's like my friend (similar sized room) and added a sub if I'd seen fit. I cannot imagine ever using a sub with the 80's unless I was producing whale song. I have done 10-hour sessions at his studio tracking indie rock bands and at no time did I ever think his 50's weren't up to the job. The ports on my 80's are stuffed with socks and the dip switches on the back are tweaked to roll the bass off.

Having said that I love the Yamaha sound - very, very nice. The 50's and 80's definitely have the same 'sound'. My other friend has Mackie HR824's and I really don't like those at all (which surprised the hell out of me given how well they were rated at the time...just goes to show).

In your shoes I would buy the HS5's and buy a sub if I thought I needed it.
felixer
milkshake wrote:

If you put your sub as close as possible to yourself, you will have a relatively good frequency responce. Because then the relation between direct and reflections are favorable.

the sub should be as far from you as the other speakers. or you need to use a delay to get the things in phase again ...
if you work with headphones you can use these resonator/shaker thingies built into your chair. very effective! but i'm not sure if you could measure the freq. response hmmm.....
drip.feed
The door to my studio has a resonant frequency of about 40Hz (low E) so that's how I know there's enough sub in my mix. Guinness ftw!
felixer
leeski wrote:
but these electrostatic ones must be better right. thumbs up

oh yes, they are wonderfull love but maybe too good for mixing? you hear everything ... so you might worry about details nobody else is ever going to hear. also they don't go exeptionally loud. it's more a hifi thing, methinks ... but i used 'm for years when my isolation was not as good as it is now and i wanted to work at night Mr. Green
leeski
felixer wrote:
leeski wrote:
but these electrostatic ones must be better right. thumbs up

oh yes, they are wonderfull love but maybe too good for mixing? you hear everything ... so you might worry about details nobody else is ever going to hear. also they don't go exeptionally loud. it's more a hifi thing, methinks ... but i used 'm for years when my isolation was not as good as it is now and i wanted to work at night Mr. Green


Thanks and there's a pair off old ones on ebay how funny
milkshake
felixer wrote:
milkshake wrote:

If you put your sub as close as possible to yourself, you will have a relatively good frequency responce. Because then the relation between direct and reflections are favorable.

the sub should be as far from you as the other speakers. or you need to use a delay to get the things in phase again ...
if you work with headphones you can use these resonator/shaker thingies built into your chair. very effective! but i'm not sure if you could measure the freq. response hmmm.....


My guess is that you haven't seen much phase curves of speakers. Especially ported speakers are very non linear phase wise.
And maybe you can point me in the direction of a peer reviewed paper showing humans sensitive to phase?
My point is that phase linearity is not that important. More important is a constant group delay, witch means no large jumps in the phase of a speaker.
felixer
milkshake wrote:
felixer wrote:
get the things in phase again ...


My guess is that you haven't seen much phase curves of speakers. Especially ported speakers are very non linear phase wise.
And maybe you can point me in the direction of a peer reviewed paper showing humans sensitive to phase?

and this is one reason why ported speakers always sound 'slow' or 'unclear'. another is the phaseshifts in crossover filters. i guess you never listened much to closed cabinets twisted pref with just 1 speaker and no crossover. imagine an auratone with a wider freq range. you'll miss the extreme low/high freq but w00t!! that midrange is so direct/in-your-face/ ruthlessly honest that you immediatly hear all sorts of mistakes in the recording/mixing. btw fostex makes some really nice broadband speakers for diy. not very loud but loud enough for nearfields. and there are new auratone-type designs nowadays. def recommened to get something like that: it's a revelation. your mixes will improve. for loud/midfield get something else ...
for documentation you could start with every paper dealing with co-axial speaker designs. not quite the same but at least a step in the right direction: 'phase coherence' ... you may not be sensitive to absolute phase (although that is debatable) but you are very sensitive to relative phase. after all that's how an eq works ...
if you have a sub, just for fun put it under your chair with the speakers a few yards away. now reverse and put the speakers close and the sub at the other end of the room. big difference!!! now try equal distance and notice how the sound literally 'comes together'. same reason why some cabinetdesigns put the tweeter further in the box: so that the woofer and tweeter membrane's are the same distance from your ears. ideally you want a point-source ... you can notice where any multispeakerdesign fails: if the tweeter is above the woofer the sound changes if you are standing or sitting down. putting the box on it's side means that problem is soved, but now the sound changes as you move left/right very frustrating since that is the main movement you make (sitting in a swivel chair moving along that desk) you put 'm upright. but someone standing next to you will hear a different sound d'oh! 1 speaker or co-axial designs rule in such a setup: auratones and tannoys in the old days ...
milkshake
felixer wrote:
milkshake wrote:
felixer wrote:
get the things in phase again ...


My guess is that you haven't seen much phase curves of speakers. Especially ported speakers are very non linear phase wise.
And maybe you can point me in the direction of a peer reviewed paper showing humans sensitive to phase?

and this is one reason why ported speakers always sound 'slow' or 'unclear'. another is the phaseshifts in crossover filters. i guess you never listened much to closed cabinets twisted

An other audio myth!
The room modes dominate the bass responce of what you actualy hear. Infact its orders of magnitude greater than ported speakers. Do you want better bass (or sound for that matter), improve your acoustics.
Edit: picture added.

50Hz decay's by half a second!

Btw My speaker system is minimum phase from 8Hz (yes not a typo) to over 15kHz

Edit: The Tannoy's you speak of have very high directional tweeters with very poor frequency responce and therefore also poor phase responce. And the tweeter is mounted way behind the woofer, with no delay compensation (only active design can do that for woofers). So definitely large steps in phase responce (and of cause also frequency responce).
Other coaxial speakers have edge reflections or ,when the tweeter is mounted in front of the woofer, reflections of the tweeter itself. Basically, there's no bennefit in using coaxial speakers, you just create more problems than solving them.
A good solution to the problem is mounting the tweeter and mid speaker as close as possible to each other (less than 1/4 lowest wavelength of the tweeter) and use apropriate crossover points.
felixer
milkshake wrote:
Do you want better bass (or sound for that matter), improve your acoustics.

this i agree with thumbs up
and once your roomacoustics are in order you may open the next can of worms lol all loudspeakers are a compromise. just make sure you get the max tradeoff for whatever you want to do. if you're going to do pounding club/dance/trance you need a different setup then if you're doing complex polyphonic music with mainly midrange voices. as with mics and synths there is not 1 box that does it all for all people ... hence the presence of several systems in a typical commercial studio cool
Robscorch
I would dump the Yamaha idea and go with either some ADAMs I love my A7s and once you get onto Ribbon Tweeters your always going to want at least one pair in your situations. I do think they color the lower end just a tad, but honestly once I tried a set of Adams I dumped Yamaha like a brick. I know everyone and they fucking standards, but truth be told if you want real results pay for a proper room and engineer to sit there with you and get shit correct.

Honestly how pristine do you need your tracks to be?
Why have all the headache for a room you will probably only use a few times? (unless your an established artist of course or this is your hobby)
Do you record more than just yourself? Do you plan on going commercial?


If no to these save your money buy yourself some decent monitors and work on your room acoustics a little at a time. Use the money you save and spend it on an established studio/mastering situation when you think your material is ready. Why waste money you could be putting toward modular gear?

Also Tannoy monitors are decent, but as milkshake mentions NO delay compensation. Also I always suggest active monitors it's just less stuff to mess with in the long run. thumbs up
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