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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Live Sampler Module?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Tech DIY  
Author Live Sampler Module?
Sandrine
As I am fairly new to the modular world, I was wondering if there is interest in a 16 bit live sampler module?

I just finished a sampler design (using PIC and Arduino) that has 184 seconds (at 48khz) max sample size, does multiple samples, super long echos, LFO FX, note pitch shift, auto-slicing, records and plays simultaneously, and has MIDI control.

http://www.freshnelly.com/showbox-sampler.htm

After I'm finished with this big project the sampler is for, I was thinking on designing a modular sampler that would have the same features, but CV control added etc.

As I am not yet familiar with modular likes/dislikes, could anyone interested in this idea post what you would like it to be able to do?

IMHO, I think it would be a great module!
skookum
Hell yeah, I think so too!
Sandrine
Right on!

Sorry to anyone trying to hear the Sampler samples at the bottom of page, I had them mixed up, just noticed. very frustrating
They're fixed now

With the sampler I do a freestyle layering, where a new sample is created using live and previous samples. It's controlled with a footswitch (start record/stop&play last/start rec new layer) so stays in tempo with performance
...but that's me controlling the gitter or synth by hand so I can correct.

I guess (using without a MIDI clock) this sync would need to be output to keep other stuff in sync? Like an arp module? See I'm a newb
falafelbiels
Well... A clock input would be even better.

Furthermore, very cool project!
Sandrine
Thanks falafelbiels!

Yes there would be a clock input of course., But for freestyling, wouldn't that output be needed for other stuff, or chaining?
So you mean a actual dedicated clock line right?
toneburst
ABSOLUTELY, I'd be interested!
A good-quality (i.e. not 8bit) loop/delay Euro module with a decent max delay time would be brilliant!

a|x
myecholalia
have a look at the 4ms dual looping delay. some similarities. you might want to differentiate yourself enough to make the project successful.
ABC
Make it DIY friendly, and they will fly away
notmiserlouagain
Yes, a diy-sampler with as much as possible cv/gate controlled parameters would be really cool!
I would like to build one, if a programming-moron like me can do it...
cretaceousear
Yep me too - would love a high quality delay in DIY.
That build page looks damn complex though! 6 boards right?
But very, very impressive stuff!
Dogma
the interface is whats gonna decide the success of this and eery other sampler....the HW is cheap as chips smile
Sandrine
Wow! I'm surprised at the interest in this!

Thankyou myecholalia for the heads up! I've had a very interesting morning of reading! Now I have some ideas of what everyone would like.

Cretaceousear, this would be the modular design, that was the MIDI controlled "lets see how tiny I can make it to fit inside my portable Box" hither



I'd keep the design on a flat board (with probably headers to another board) because there's so much space behind a modular panel.

It well could be a kit, but I'm having issues with the ADC, it's TSSOP so may have to either get those on the boards, or supply a breakout to standard DIP format. I've soldered them with a regular iron, but it's tricky!

Dogma, yes the interface is the real issue. Complex but simple to use.

I think I'll take this on then Guinness ftw!

I'm about to go on "holidays" so now I'll have something to think about laying around in the sun!

If anyone can think of a request just let me know, and I'll see if it can be done.
Sandrine
Off the top of my head, some features would be

screaming goo yo Synced or manual (input switch/trigger) Layering of samples

screaming goo yo Slicing by division of sample, Peaks, or tempo, with CV or MIDI selection of sliced samples

screaming goo yo Tempo division/multiplication (Gate or MIDI)

screaming goo yo Tap Tempo (I've been doing a lot of that lately!) for echo/sample/sync ( with thru socket?)

screaming goo yo CV controlled sample rate (pitch shift) with "note lock" for chromatic scaling based on CV note description, or free pitch (no glissando, just a slide)

screaming goo yo Echo Mode (synced or not) to echo tight or long

screaming goo yo Peak functions from audio input to sync record starts / Slicing / other

screaming goo yo Sample hold (granualizing effect) with variable forward / reverse rate

screaming goo yo Reverse variable/accelerator for "scratch" effect

screaming goo yo Stutter effect? (uses binary AND or OR to control a section of sample memory address width, derived from an analog source)

screaming goo yo MIDI I/O on DIP switch selected channel for sequencer/keyboard control

screaming goo yo MIDI programmable / board presets (of course!)

screaming goo yo Internal LFO bypassed when external is plugged in (separate from CV) with variable gain

screaming goo yo Configurable velocity sensing on MIDI notes input/pulse input/trig/gate? To control Slice sample's level individually.

screaming goo yo Built in EQ (basic bass/mid/treb type) with various centers

screaming goo yo Audio Feedback insertion (auto-bypass on both sockets) w/variable gain


Most of the controls would be digital to vactrols/digital processing to allow board presets to take over, if presets are implemented. If not then most will be analog.

44k-48k sample rate (record+play-mono) or 96k (play only, for sample rate shifting +1 octave without "skipping" samples)

184 second record time (important for layering) at standard sample rate.

Easy to get parts for "mostly" DIY!

--

The existing sampler design does most of this already (except CV stuff)

I think it'd require some sort of display as well (LED/LCD). Mine only has a status LED Red=record, Green=play, yellow=record and play, blue flash=tempo event, but the sequencer/controller in my can display everything else so . .

This would be mono as stereo is left to the post FX right? The overhead for stereo would mean either sample rate lower, or more parts/$$
L/R panning could be easily incorporated though, as done in the present design. It sounds stereo really.

I know I'm forgetting lots but this is a start smile
Sandrine
Oh yeh, firmware updatable with the Arduino end of it, but instead of a pro-mini, a trinket can be used so no need for FTDI. This would be at the builder's discretion.
I knew I forgot something!
falafelbiels
Sandrine wrote:
Thanks falafelbiels!

Yes there would be a clock input of course., But for freestyling, wouldn't that output be needed for other stuff, or chaining?
So you mean a actual dedicated clock line right?


Yes a regular clock input like any eurorack sequencer has or should have. A module that can only be clock master is rather limiting when patching. One should always be able to slave a sequencer type module.

IMO at least...

What you are working on is really impressive hyper
Sandrine
falafelbiels wrote:
Sandrine wrote:
Thanks falafelbiels!

Yes there would be a clock input of course., But for freestyling, wouldn't that output be needed for other stuff, or chaining?
So you mean a actual dedicated clock line right?


Yes a regular clock input like any eurorack sequencer has or should have. A module that can only be clock master is rather limiting when patching. One should always be able to slave a sequencer type module.

IMO at least...

What you are working on is really impressive hyper


Thanks, I'm lovin' it!

Yes that's why having a "thru" jack might be good. That way, it could control, or be controlled. Of course it adds another jack to what promises to be a pretty busy panel.
falafelbiels
Oh one more jack...
You'd hardly notice the difference
c1t1zen
Love your ideas so far Sandrine.
You mention all the extra space in eurorack but the trend is more for low profile skiff friendly modules lately. It's not really a big issue but some people may complain if it's too deep.
Also will it be possible to download the samples later if we record an awesome clip?
Sandrine
Thanks c1t1zen smile

Um, it won't be deep (jacks+unless 1" is deep?) it'll be wide, mostly for all the knobs and jacks involved. OMG it's getting pretty high in number thus far

As for downloading samples, no, the data bus isn't accessible that way, it's be record the audio is all. The internal setup that created it can be saved but not what you fed into it. Sorry
c1t1zen
cool, no worries just curious it's not a deal breaker. It definitely rare to see a sampler that alows you to output a previous recording. That's what running your DAW during jams is for!
Sandrine
Cool, oh you're right, I didn't know everything was less the 40mm wow! Thanks for that!
c1t1zen
Hehe, not everything but thanks SMD!
I do a lot of through hole DIY and will soon start doing more SMD. I see you've already got that sorted.
mxmxmx
Quote:
more SMD. I see you've already got that sorted.


speaking of which -- isn't there some modern equivalent to PCM53J? this bit made me wonder :

Quote:
The board [...] uses a PCM 53JP 16 bit DAC. These DACs were purchased from China on Ebay, fairly cheap, but I suspect the design is decades old. It has all of the earmarks of the 80's, i.e. reversed MSB/LSB (Q0 is MSB), big power draw, ...


googling the part does throw up a couple of ebay sellers, some of which are fairly cheap, some of which not so cheap. isn't there something that's still in production? that SDRAM chip seems to be less "rare", at least there seem to be plenty on alibaba/aliexpress; or where would one get those?
latigid on
IMO this would be better as separate modules or a standalone unit. The power draw for everything is already becoming significant. It would allow (for instance) wigglers to choose their own input stage and EQ and patch it as they wish. The troubleshooting side is also easier with separate components.

So I would strip it down to just the unique part, which is the actual sampling section.

Might I just add that this would be a cool project for MIDIbox with most of the hardware side and programming protocols already established.
Sandrine
mxmxmx wrote:
Quote:
more SMD. I see you've already got that sorted.


speaking of which -- isn't there some modern equivalent to PCM53J? this bit made me wonder :

Quote:
The board [...] uses a PCM 53JP 16 bit DAC. These DACs were purchased from China on Ebay, fairly cheap, but I suspect the design is decades old. It has all of the earmarks of the 80's, i.e. reversed MSB/LSB (Q0 is MSB), big power draw, ...


googling the part does throw up a couple of ebay sellers, some of which are fairly cheap, some of which not so cheap. isn't there something that's still in production? that SDRAM chip seems to be less "rare", at least there seem to be plenty on alibaba/aliexpress; or where would one get those?


Oh yes, there's lots of 16 bit DACs, but the price is what pulls the PCM53 into the circuit. The DAC may change tho because external latches needed to be added. I just happened to have a couple on hand from another project. It is a bit of a power pig too. That's the only part on the board that does draw. The RAM can "sleep" so it only draws on active. DIP is nice in any case.
Sandrine
latigid on wrote:
IMO this would be better as separate modules or a standalone unit. The power draw for everything is already becoming significant. It would allow (for instance) wigglers to choose their own input stage and EQ and patch it as they wish. The troubleshooting side is also easier with separate components.

So I would strip it down to just the unique part, which is the actual sampling section.

Might I just add that this would be a cool project for MIDIbox with most of the hardware side and programming protocols already established.



Many(most) of the control's functions are handled / generated by the processors, so splitting into multiple modules could only be an outboard function, required for operation.

The feedback stage will have an insert, while the input (filtered for aliasing) is whatever is fed in. The EQ flattened. Or am I misunderstanding you?

The EQ chip is really incidental. It acts as a router as well (sans vactrols...which was the original design actually!) but more importantly, has a wonderful anti-click and soft mute system with variable step rates that can change to suit the function/mode. this is pretty important in a looping/layering sampler I've discovered.

So other than the controls, it'd be difficult to break this up.

MIDIbox? I'm not sure what that is. It sounds good though. I've thought about MIDI I/O but isn't there already a lot of them out there?

Cheers and thankyou for your input latigid!
Sandrine
!
That has given me a couple of ideas though!

A port to link multiple units together so they sync from any master

.. and

A DC (not decoupled) input switch to allow sampling of CV voltage direct (using existing CV control input) so a CV can be recorded instead of audio. This would be a mode I suppose.

Are these good/useful?
latigid on
Yeah, my thinking was the HP size is also getting quite large and that having MIDI inputs never quite looks right on a modular synth. Just my opinion...

You can learn more about MIDIbox at

http://midibox.org/forums and
http://ucapps.de

Sometimes it will feel like you're talking into an echo chamber (apt for your project! razz ) but there are quite knowledgable folk there.

Interested in seeing what you come up with in any case.

Best regards,
Sandrine
Ooooo! I've never heard of MIDIbox! Finally a place to post the dozens of \midi projects I've made over the years! Nice, thanks Latigid!

On the MIDI jacks, yes i know what you mean. I could disguise them as 3.5mm jacks, but then those silly adapters would be needed.

"...but there are quite knowledgeable folk there. "
Yes I totally agree, that's why I ask what you (the wigglers) want. My modular experience is rather limited, and I had moved on to a sailboat for some time, had to get rid of everything ( I miss my Moog!) so kinda starting over now back on land.

I'll draft up a CG panel and we'll see where things go from there
Sandrine
The PCM54 seems to have almost identical specs but only draws 30 mA total, somewhat less than the PCM53 with it's 36mA (+/- 15) and 4mA on the 5V.
The trade-off is only +/- 3V out as opposed to +/- 10V on the 53.
The 54 is a bit cheaper on ebay too...

I was on Digikey and the parallel DAC's are insanely priced, probably why I nixed those!

SO I'm still leaning toward the 53, <10$, good $$ if bought in bulk (10+)
vtl5c3
Very interested!

Just to be clear, will there be a way to CV control feedback in echo mode?

Also, will it support 5 1/4" floppy drives?
Sandrine
vtl5c3 wrote:
Very interested!

Just to be clear, will there be a way to CV control feedback in echo mode?


Yes, a CV input can be steered that way

vtl5c3 wrote:
Also, will it support 5 1/4" floppy drives?


In which way? via audio.? Wouldn't that just be another delay? please explain
Sandrine
Still working on the modular design. . .
There's 4 CV inputs now, but not sure about that feedback CV. Send or Return side? Both?
I'm away on holidays so can only scribble on napkins lol

Looks like there'll be 4 sections, and it'll be euro due to the amount of jacks, they're adding up. The 4 sections are input strip, sampler body, EQ, and output/feedbak section.

The EQ will be selectable single/multiple band CV controlled.

The creativity engine always kicks in when I'm on holidays. This, and lyrics smile

Cheers!
sammy123
Cool project. Count me as interested.
glennfin
vtl5c3 wrote:
Also, will it support 5 1/4" floppy drives?


I'm sure that is a joke.. hyper
Sandrine
Ha! Thought so, but you know...
I've had weirder requests!
I worked as an electronics tech, but also did custom jobs and you'd be surprised at what people think can be done meh meh meh
NS4W
Impressive project!
Sandrine
Update:
Panel type decision

Because I can't figure out how to create a poll in an existing subject, I guess I'll just post the question:

What is YOUR preferred format for the SDS Sampler/Looper?

I'm leaning toward Eurorack as there are >14 jacks and >12 knobs so far, also several buttons so it's getting fairly large!

The electronics & programming is easy, the panel design is hard!

Still on holidays but have been giving panel much thought. Inputs on left side, outputs mostly along the side (edit) some on bottom, a basic block diagram on the panel to indicate signal flows. Sound good?
Sandrine
NS4W wrote:
Impressive project!

Thanks NS4W! Your tunes take me back, love the pwm-y sound, of course that may just be these cheapo notebook speakers lol!
sammy123
Eurorack please.
NS4W
Yes - euro by all means!
Sandrine
vtl5c3 wrote:
Very interested!

Just to be clear, will there be a way to CV control feedback in echo mode?

Also, will it support 5 1/4" floppy drives?


Just to be clear, I'm in a bit of a quandary on the feedback CV. The design that is on the table makes CV control the FBK send a simple matter, but CV gain of the return adds a fair bit of circuitry and panel pot. Do you think a return gain needs to be CV controllable?

Just trying to keep costs down hmmm.....
cereyanlimusiki
@Sandrine project is nice one but why does your website look like it is from 90s smile
Sandrine
Because I'm from the 90's lol!
Isn't it cool to be retro now?

Old habits, I have a huge website on a 45' sailboat build over 10 years. It was started in '97 so..

http://www.thebigsailboatproject.com
Sandrine
I just added some samps more pertinent to modular setups:

http://www.freshnelly.com/tunes2015/samsamsliceduplive.MP3
Me playing in gitter notes during record trigger (16 beats) then sequencer chopping it all up

http://www.freshnelly.com/tunes2015/samsamvoxmidisamp.MP3
My voice getting pitched and sequenced, then granulized.

http://www.freshnelly.com/tunes2015/samsammidicont1.MP3
Gitter progression getting chopped up and re-arranged, the grained. This is really fun if the sequencer is in a loop and the record lasts a predictable amount of time each time. Here, because there's no beat, I wasn't sure when that time has passed so it's kinda out of sync.
Maco
Hey sandrine niceeee project was looking for chips for samplers to try to design one but you have save me time really like your implementation for the sampler have a couple of sugestions:

Can you add a switch to select the audio out, for example I put in the audio in a volca beat sample something and have the ability to select sample and volca beats together, sample only and volca beats only.

Could you consider to have a main pcb and a controller pcb this open a lot the possibilities to use it on euro, frac, 4u etc

I like a bit this one http://www.boss.info/products/rc-505/
But im looking to have like a sampler per instrument and love to have like a suitcase with the four volcas plus some fx and have fun Also this will need like punch in and punch out sample button i guess

Thanks and excellent work
magneticstripper
Awesomeness! Very nice project!
Sandrine
Maco wrote:


Can you add a switch to select the audio out, for example I put in the audio in a volca beat sample something and have the ability to select sample and volca beats together, sample only and volca beats only.


Thanks Maco
Are you talking 2 samples playing? Or just a bypass?
I've considered stereo @ 41k max, but a bit more hardware to do (switching the DAC really fast) but that's a really good idea in either case. Like a DJ soft switch I guess

A controller PCB separate? hmm. The present design (not posted yet) would allow for MIDI comm from one to another, but really I suppose it could be done that way, I'll look into it!

I'm going to switch the "controller" to an Atmega 2560 just because it's more powerful, more pins, and has lot's of ADCs

Thanks for the suggestions!
Sandrine
magneticstripper wrote:
Awesomeness! Very nice project!

Thanks!
Maco
Yes more like a by pass also could be wonderful if you leave some extra holes trough the traces to chain between boards and have a global button to sync play/rec.

Probably a fader is a good idea
Sandrine
Oh, wew!

OK, yep easy. I like the fader idea too. The RC-505 is a pretty logical approach, very similar in features (except mine has more yukyuk)

Still may go stereo or dual track tho.

I think the MIDI link would be best for linking, but maybe not too. I see the RP-505 can do that, controlling other unit via MIDI. At least play/stop/clock sync is there. Hmmm. Food for thought. Thanks!

-edit-
Nice Kitty! Famous no doubt!
Sandrine
Update:

Yep, I haven't let it slip!

Progress has been made on the design aspects. The display will like be LCD now as the LED (while nice and retro) display just can't port enough information that's easy to read.
There's also the added ability to display things like spectrum analyzer, multiple settings simultaneously, RAM usage, progress in layers etc.

The LCD looks to be the inverted style, thusly keeping a sorta LED feel to it.

Also working out bugs in the user interface.
This module will have so many features it's been difficult to decide what to bring to front panel and what to leave as a secondary access function.

I'm sure there's a "magical combination" just need to find it just around the corner!
Sandrine
Update:

After a few weeks of designing and re-designing, a panel has emerged! I've worked out the new core programming (based on my original MIDI
controlled Sampler built last winter) and it seems stable enough to show great promise as a modular.

Here is a "rough" panel design and while not dimensionally accurate (50U eurorack) makes a good reference for the description of functions etc.
below. The features I've listed are like in a user manual, so is fairly in-depth.

Time Specs:
2 channels @ 48K s/s record/play simultaneously
2 channels @ 96k s/s record or play
6 minutes Record time single channel @48k
3 minutes Record time stereo @48k



Basic Sampler Layout:
The 2 audio channels can function as Stereo Sampling, Stereo FX Sampling, or independent FX Sampler & Record/Play Sampler.


--FX Sampler:--

The FX Sampler Side is to mangle, twist, distort and slice up a sample. There's basically 3 modes to the FX sampler:

1) Record / Play: Record in audio to be modified, like a standard sampler.
2) Constant Record: continuous record so that FX can be applied to audio that has already happened (extremely useful!)
3) EchoFreeFX: This mode is for looping as an echo, so modifications to audio repeat at a given interval (set by trig/gate/button)

Audio recorded into this side of the sampler can be used on the fly in the following ways:

Slicing:
A sample can be Sliced Live by
a) Manual button, Trigger/Gate input. Will slice at each trig or button press.
b) Audio Peaks (tunable gain / back sample time)
c) Sync In Clock, thus defined intervals
d) Divider Slicing. This is done after a sample has been recorded (or accessed to play) A pre-defined number of slices will result.
Up to 120 slices can be created, then accessed via CV (quantized as notes, or as even distribution if set that way) with a gate/trigToggle from a keyboard or sequencer.

Audio Peak Slicing (my previous sampler has this!) has a small pot for peak detection level, but has an AGC that responds to rises/falls in level
rather than just level. A hidden control called "Back" is a set and forget adjustment that sets the slice point a certain amount before the circuit
picked it up. Due to circuit variances, this needs to be setup for drums slices, where timing is everything!

The "Find" knob allows for easy scanning over slices, active when turned. Playback of slices can be 1-shot or looped when gated or triggered.
If only a few slices are created, then CV "notes" above the range will still access slices because they are looped through the range. i.e.
6 slices are created, natively accessible from Note C0 to F0, but F# will play the first slice, as would C5.
*Slices can be played while still recording. If in any mode other than Divider Slicing, the number of slices will grow.
Slices are also MIDI accessible.

MiniLoop:
While a sample is playing, miniLoop can be activated (via GO button, or trigTog/Gate) to loop within the ranges set by Start/Stop pots/CV's or

Position/Size of set that way.
"Start" will define the beginning of the loop, and "Stop" will define the end of the loop, while "Position" will define the beginning of a loop, but

"Size" will define the offset from that point. This is advantageous for maintaining tempo while panning across a sample.
*If miniLoop is active during the playing of a slice, the miniLoop will be "inside" the slice, not the whole sample.

Granulizer:
Similar to miniLoop, but on a much tighter timing scale.
The "Size" knob/CVin controls a range of less that 1mS to about 100mS grain size.
The Gmove/Position knob controls where in the sample to granulize. "Gmove" or grain move, if selected, moves through the sample forward or reverse (+/-) at a rate depending on the knob position, whereas "Posit" just selects where in the sample to granulize.
*Granulizer can be used within a miniLoop or a Slice, during recording (great for hold FX!) and can be altered with "Rate" pitch control changes.

EQ1:
The Sampler module has 2 EQ's. EQ1 is for the FX side when used seperately from RP Sampler Side.
3 bands of the EQ can be adjusted (via knobs or remotely via CV's) to insert before the feedback loop. This can be useful for echo FX mode,
pre-conditioning audio before inserting another module into the feedback (via FBK Send/Return) or just tailoring the FX output.
The buttons feeding each band are to switch the knob/CVin's to control band Frequency & Q settings instead of Gains/Attenuations.
A "DOuble EQ" mode runs audio through the EQ twice, resulting in some amazingly high Q gains/nulling. The button for this is missing from the
panel shown.

Feedback:
The feedback (after EQ) can have an insert to another module before returning to the mix, or can be simply used as a second output to elsewhere.
Only when a plug is in FBK RET does the loop open up. Otherwise the feedback is internal.
A CV input can control the feedback level.

Blend:
This control crossfades between incoming audio and the FX processed output. It can be CV controlled by the Blend input on the RP side of the panel.

To RP:
This is an internal patch that feeds FX audio into the RP Sampler input so it can be recorded there into a loop/layer/echo/sample etc.

Rate:
The Master Sample rate control. This is dual purpose for both sides of the sampler, depending on which "Page" is selected, FX or RP. The rate

control is an encoder, not a knob. When assigned to the FX side, it's more abrupt, while assigned to the RP sampler side, it's quite a bit softer.
The FX Rate CV input only changes the FX side, but can be made to "FM" the RP side if required.
On the FX Side, the CV input can be notes (-5 to +5V) so can pitch a Slice as notes. I've done it, lots of fun!

Reverse:
This button / Trig/Gate (jack missing from panel) switches the sampler into reverse at the same rate was going forward.
The action of this button is programmable to slow the sample to a stop, then rev up to a reverse, slow to a stop etc. Somewhat like a DJ holding/reversing a record!
*If still recording(only), then will reverse from present rec point and then when released, play forward from there, faster to catch up.
*If is in EchoFreeFX mode, then will reverse back into the echo (also that will be recorded/echoed) and jump back to Echo-space position after.

Sync In:
The buttons are supposed to indicate divide/multiply up/down, and assign to FX or RP or Both or neither. Still trying to decide on whether to use

LED's or just have it come up on the display to save panel space.
The FX Sampler Side will use the sync as a "snap" for miniLoop and EchoFree, but not an absolute sync, which allows for overlapping tempos and other fun stuff that this side of the sampler is designed for.


--RP (Record/Play) Sampler: --

Unlike the FX side, this side is more for recording/creating loops, sampling, and layering, using the REC trigger/button/footswitch to control.
Changing trigger mode to "Foot" enables an S-Trig (normally high) input so a standard footswitch can control it.
RP Sampler Modes: LayerFree, EchoFree, LayerSync, EchoSync, Note Rec/Play

LayerFree:
Upon triggering a record, then triggering again, the sampler switches to Play immediately, (or records new layer if set this way by button to left)
Subsequent triggers will "arm" the sampler to record on the next loop start.
This sets up a loop size that can be expanded by 2x, 3x, 4x etc by following layers. Even though no sync is used with this mode, it can command the sync of a piece by way of the user "keeping up", hence "layerFree"

LayerSync:
This is the same as above, but locked to the sync input. i.e. a trigger event (footswitch/button/trig) must happen on or before a sync point
(determined by the Sync in and divider/multiplier on RP side). i.e. A 4/4 beat is the sync. the layer is started via footswitch at the down beat, then 8 beats go by and the layer record is stopped at the 9th beat. The sample layer will continue now indefinitely (if in rec-->play mode). The next footswitch event will add a layer, but at beat 1 it'll start recording. before 16 beats go by, the footswitch is tapped again to end the recording of the
second layer.
Holding the footswitch (this only on button or foot) will stop play at loop point + 1 beat (fast fading as well!)
Tapping the footswitch twice will subtract a layer to the previous layer.
*"Notes" buttons can be used to access play / edit the first 4 layers instantly when in either layer mode.

EchoFree:
The length of the echo is determined by 1st record trigger to 2nd record trigger time, gate time, or footswitch tap to tap time. After that all input is

ignored except a hold on footswitch, which terminates the echo with a fade.
This mode works very well with "canned" music, or another synth/sequencer already playing that has no sync into the sampler, or ambient phrases for long, clear echos. Depending on the Feedback setting, the echo can be used as a delay.
Changing the "Rate" during an echo will produce great results, but the CV input to the RP sampler side only varies the rate by +/- 1 octave. This makes things simpler for FM FX (via LFO) without affecting the loop time. My original sampler has a built in LFO for this.

EchoSync:
Basically the same as EchoFree above, but the triggers are set at a sync point.
*"Notes" buttons can be used while in either echo mode. Any play (green) button will set an echo to "endless loop" (no more recording). Any Rec

button (red) while record into the same echo loop, but wipe the previous echo, as a sort of "clean-up" function. The new echo will begin.

Notes Rec/Play:
The first thing that's noticeable on the panel is the 8 buttons on the right!
In it's most basic form, these buttons enable one to quickly record a sample, then play it back. Tapping the record will start a continuous record that must be terminated by another tap. Holding the record will enable recording until the button is released. The play buttons will act the same way depending on the method of record.
If the record was tapped, then the play tapped will start play, and loop forever, until tapped again to stop. If held, will stop when released.
If the record was held, then the play becomes a 1-shot on a tap, or plays if held and stops on release.
This is a great feature for sampling in drums, or percussive sounds, then just playing them on the buttons.

Advanced "Notes" features:
The "Bank" button, when pressed, will allow selection of a new bank to record to/play from. Press bank then 1,2,3 or 4.
The Notes Sampler Mode can be used to record a whole set (max 120) of samples using the T/G and R/P inputs.
The T/G (Trigger/gate) input will cause a sample to be created and designated a number (0-119) based on quantization of the CV input at R/P.
This is best explained by example:
Plus a keyboard into T/G for gate, and R/P for CVin .
Press Bank Button and select a bank to record to (use red buttons), feed audio into the RP Sampler Side.
Program each keyboard key with a sound by just pressing the keys as long as the sound sample desired.
Now press Bank button and select the same bank as play (green buttons)
The keys with recordings assigned will play back the samples!
*If a trigger input was used to create the samples, then the sample will continue recording until next trigger. (Good for sequencers)

EQ2:
When the page is switched to RP (green) the EQ controls set EQ2. As with FX EQ1, this EQ is set in the feedback loop so has a drastic affect on
layering and echo. A good retro layer/echo decay (high cut, mid-hi cut) can be great for cycling down into new musical phrases.

FeedBack:
This control on the RP Sampler side is mostly an attenuator, but can be controlled via CV.

Blend:
This is a cross-fader between the audio input (RP side) and the sampler's output. It can also be controlled via CV input.

TO FX:
This "send" is an internal patch from the RP Sampler Side to the FX Side. So a long sample can be looped, in sync say, then "worked over"
in the FX sampler side.

---------------------------------

As mentioned way above, the 2 audio channels can function as Stereo Sampling, Stereo FX Sampling, or independent FX Sampler & Record/Play Sampler.
When merged together as FX Left & Right, the FX controls apply in unison, except the EQ which can be set differently on each side.
When merged together as RP Sampler Left & Right, the RP controls apply in unison, including the EQ2 which controls EQ1 for simplicity.
When either side is merged to stereo, the "TO RP" and "TO FX" levels enable cross-mixing from L-R and R-L of post sampled audio.
The feedbacks will both act individually in either mode.

Tap Tempo:
A clock sync can be created using Tap Tempo. This tempo can be used by either side as SYnc input would be, but is overridden by an actual sync input, or MIDI clock stream, which takes over syncOut based on present div/mult sync setting.

MIDI I/O:
All of the panel can be controlled via MIDI CC's. Notes on certain channels can be sent to "Notes", "Rate" (+/- 2 octaves), and slices.
All MIDI controlled audio controls are fast, so can be used for "chopping", ping-pong etc.
Similarly, Gate/CVin's to "Slicer" and "Notes" inputs can be sent to MIDI channels as quantized notes.
Sync In can be sent via MIDI according to present div/mult settings.

Presets:
A "SnapShot" of the panel can be taken any time (one of the nameless buttons!) to be re-called after other things have been changed.
If, after a Snapshot is taken, you want to save it, it can be saved as a preset to be recalled to act as a template in the future.
I'm unsure whether or not to make the presets "nameable" yet.

LCD:
There's still some confusion as to which LCD to use. 20x2, 16x2, 20x4 etc. It'd be nice if it could change color with the "Page" selected for FX or RP samplers.

Spectrum Analyzer:
The FX side will probably have a spectrum analyzer as part of the audio/EQ, so I'm trying to decide based on how useful it'd be outside of "eye candy". The Slicer could take the Bass end for Peak data to slice only on a kick for example.

--------------------------
Probably the dimensions are all off but this is to get an idea of the layout in a general sense.


Price$$:
I promise it'll be a lot less than it's worth! But seriously, competitive with other samplers now available.

DIY?
If it becomes DIY, it won't be entirely. There's a number of IC's that are TSSOP and such, which is outside of the equipment posessed by most DIY'ers.

Suggestions / Questions / Disses
If you are interested and have any questions/comments about this Sampler, don't hesitate to post them here! After all, that is why I'm posting all of this in the first place, to find out what is wanted in a sampler.

Well, back to work
Cheers all!
sammy123
Wow!
Jarno
Mindboggling!
Navs
Flippin eck woah
Sandrine
Is this good?.... or bad? (Said in voice of russian guy from the movie Armegeddon)


Forgot to mention that the PCM53J DAC is off the BOM, with a much better and far less power hungry DAC.
Sandrine
Oops double post
Sandrine
I'd like to simplify/shrink the panel a bit but we're trying to stay away from menu driven selections and multi-mode buttons as much as possible.
Pretty much all of the jacks are required as they can all be used together at the same time.

I know this would be great..


..but it plugs into an MRI so kinda bulky.

Then there's the menu driven way to do it...



lol!
av500
3U is still too big, make a 1U utility panel with a single output jack, labeled "magic"

the rest is pure SW...
Sandrine
This would be another way to get basically the same type of module, but quite a bit smaller. The knobs are encoders and selecting one of the buttons sets the 4 encoders to that purpose.



Encoders are a bit "clicky" but have a real advantage when switching their purpose. They can be fine or coarse resolution, depending on the application.
For example, if the encoder was for a start position of a sample, the speed could change when turned quickly to get you there faster, then turned slowly to find the position. Also each one has a button built in.
mrtweed
amazing work here sandrine. +1 for trying to stay away from multi mode buttons.
Sandrine
av500 wrote:
3U is still too big, make a 1U utility panel with a single output jack, labeled "magic"

the rest is pure SW...


1U hehe, just big enuff for the mounting screws, I guess that'd be a slider then?

mrtweed wrote:
amazing work here sandrine. +1 for trying to stay away from multi mode buttons.

Thanks MRTweed

Yes, multi-mode buttons remind me of programming a digital thermostat. Loose the instruction booklet and you're done!
Tap=A, Hold 1s=B, Hold 2s=C, Hold 3s=D, Hold while pressing button 2 and touching nose on left side=E

I like to try to make things intuitive, problem is that trying out a design over time makes it intuitive with time so it is simple to me, but nobody else.
lamouette/rck
It looks really promising as it is, like the format, and the specs
geecen
Looks very exciting indeed! Though the encoder route is probably no anyone's favourite ultimately, I'm sure most people would be prepared to compromise for a smaller module with a smaller price tag. I look forward to seeing how this progresses!
Eloc
Perhaps it's an option to have a core module with the main functions brought to the panel, and then expander modules for control of additional functions. Though I personally would just want everything on the panel because i'm greedy... for others, economy of space may take precedence.
ObfuscatedVisuals
I am interested in this as well!
geecen
Eloc wrote:
Perhaps it's an option to have a core module with the main functions brought to the panel, and then expander modules for control of additional functions. Though I personally would just want everything on the panel because i'm greedy... for others, economy of space may take precedence.


Kind of like the Mutable Instruments Shruthi vs Shruthi XT. The four encoders under the screen did remind me of the Shruthi approach actually.
Sandrine
geecen wrote:
Looks very exciting indeed! Though the encoder route is probably no anyone's favourite ultimately, I'm sure most people would be prepared to compromise for a smaller module with a smaller price tag. I look forward to seeing how this progresses!

It would save a few HP, and yes be less expensive to build.

Eloc wrote:
Perhaps it's an option to have a core module with the main functions brought to the panel, and then expander modules for control of additional functions. Though I personally would just want everything on the panel because i'm greedy... for others, economy of space may take precedence.


Believe it or not, we came up with this idea at the same time! A simpler (dubbed SimpleSample) machine with hands on controls, then an expansion module with more of the fancy stuff, sync, miniLoop etc.
On the latter, me too applause

Great obfuscatedvisuals! I'll continue with updates.

geecen wrote:

Kind of like the Mutable Instruments Shruthi vs Shruthi XT. The four encoders under the screen did remind me of the Shruthi approach actually.


Wow,I've never looked at the Shruthi before. That's the look I'm going for, except the encoders should have "flat" knobs as that marker bump is a bit disorienting. It always feels like it's about to reach it's limit when there isn't one.
ObfuscatedVisuals
Sandrine wrote:
Great obfuscatedvisuals! I'll continue with updates.


AFAIK there aren't any other sampling modules that work at 16/44.1khz or above so I'm really excited that about that possibility
Sandrine
ObfuscatedVisuals wrote:
Sandrine wrote:
Great obfuscatedvisuals! I'll continue with updates.


AFAIK there aren't any other sampling modules that work at 16/44.1khz or above so I'm really excited that about that possibility


Even better, I'm getting to work on the project now.

Hey, ObfuscatedVisuals, based on your site (pretty mystical gear to me) you may be interested in this project I did 3 years ago.
It uses a code strip (1 frame) to activate loading of songs into a DAW then another to start the sequence. I've used it performing along with a music video and worked great.
I don't know if this has been done before but it's so much fun to use, I just wanted to show someone who may appreciate it.
SDS KeyPadz

It's also a keypad (hacked joystick type controller) to enter codes that will auto load a song sequence into any DAW soft.

Cheers!
ObfuscatedVisuals
Sandrine wrote:

I don't know if this has been done before but it's so much fun to use, I just wanted to show someone who may appreciate it.
SDS KeyPadz

It's also a keypad (hacked joystick type controller) to enter codes that will auto load a song sequence into any DAW soft.


Cool!.. I knew a number of people back in the day who probably could have used something like this to synchronize video playback (using the trigger to start playback via rs422) although it's much easier to get good microcontrollers these days and more importantly lots of information about how to use them thanks to the internet.
Sandrine
I just love using it, especially from a DVD where there's a whole bunch of songs with videos in a row. Great for jamming!


Anyway, a new design has emerged, keeping with Eloc's mention, a primary sampler module, and additional control module option.

We're probably going with this one, unless the 4 encoder gets sudden overwhelming support. Parts are on their way for the prototype (well ok for the encoder sampler too!)

This sampler is very capable on it's own, even though just 14HU.



Alone, it can do the following:
-Operate as a sampler in Layer/Echo/Record-Play Modes
-Rec/Play in stereo
-Vary playback rate +/- 2 octaves
-Feedback internally on both channels, or via send/return on 1 channel (FX side) and internal on the other
-Slice manually or via SLC trigger during record or play or any mode
-Slice via Peak Mode during Rec/Play (R/P) mode
-Play Slices using a CV (SL.V) and SL.PLY gate at any time, even during record/layer/echo or any play mode
-Play inside a sample as Start/End knobs dictate, GranMove/Size, or Position/Size, depending on 3 position toggle switch setting
Play using Play button (toggled play/release)
Play using Play trigger/Gate/Footswitch input
-Play inside a Slice, if slice is already playing at the time, dictated by the Start/End knobs again, but relative to the slice.
-Granulize/move through a sample/Slice if toggle switch is in G-S position with sizes from 1 mS to 500mS without affecting loop/slice play position
upon return. Via button (toggle) or Play Gate input.
-MiniLoop (If toggle switch set to S-E or P-S) over an entire sample (R/P mode), echo size range (present position - echo size), last layer recorded,
during record or playback.
-Change Sample Rate of playback in any mode/slice/gran/play from knob or Rate CV.
-Select an EQ pair to adjust for feedback EQ, thus using only 1 pot, which also selects the band the EQ CV will influence
-RGB LED shows EQ "color" as Low=Red, Mid=Green, High=blue in proportion to -15dB - 0dB - +15dB of each band
-Auto select CV type on Start/End knobs (converting each to attenuvertors when plugged in) from toggle switch. Gmove is +/- 5V
-Auto select Play trigger input type based on T/F/G setting for record. So paired as trig/gate/footswitches (if use 2)
-LED's display sample Rates when at -2,-1,0,+1,and +2 octaves exactly. Intermediate LEDs will brighten, then dim as their ranges are crossed.
-LED's will also assist in setup of Peak Slice Gain and Back adjustments, Slice Loop/playout selection, quantized slice slots, and EQ Band
Frequency centers, mostly set-and-forget stuff.
-Blend control mixes ACin L with Left sampler out, snd ACin R with Right sampler out. A dual wet/dry as one would find on any reverb/delay.
-180 seconds continuous record time in stereo @ 48KHz rate.

The big Rate knob is an encoder. It'll be smoothed and compensated as inverse log so doesn't get steppy on the higher rates. The advantage is finer stepping is possible, and being able to have it reset to a standard record sample rate, then move away from it.

The EQ setting will be assigned to each mode, and recalled when the mode is returned to. (except peak which shares R/P-record-play mode)


With the Expansion Module the capabilities are opened up more:
RP and FX sides can be separate/RP/FX, miniLoop is added, granulizer is on Simple (to work inside a miniLoop), clock sync is added, MIDI is added, Loop out trigger added, Blend is divided into 2 controls, Feedback CV added, Blend CV's added, EQ controls/CV's added for FX side, adds 2nd Layer Mode(rec-->rec), other slice modes (tempo, divide, spectrum peak, VoxRec), RP->FX mix, FX->RP Mix, and RP Feedback control added, spectrum Peak Slicer selection, . LCD screen. 48k/24K record sample rate selection. (so playback range is 6K to 96K, or 12K to 192K), Easy selection of Quantized Slice playback mode (1/120th of CV range with roll-over), Tap-tempo ++

The Expansion module should be about the same size as this, and will connect via a 7 pin interconnect patch.

Both Modules will certainly be firmware upgradeable.

I love this one so much I'm going ahead and building it anyway! Guinness ftw!
meatbeatz
woah nice!
mxmxmx
semantics apart, shouldn't it be "réflexe involontaire"?
Eloc
Looks really impressive
Sandrine
mxmxmx wrote:
semantics apart, shouldn't it be "réflexe involontaire"?


Oui, c'est vrai, mais le dernier "e" ne marche pas, meme l'accent aigu. Even though I'm officially bilingual, I missed the "u" haha! Thanks mxmxmx :blush:
Sandrine
After lots of design work, and other work(not fun!) I've come to a bit of an impasse. It became obvious That the T/G input selector for Play and Record Trigger/Gate's would need to be separate.
So I've crowded a second one in there.

Problem is, the toggles stick up a ways, and it's kind of right in the way of the Record button now, for easy access anyway.




So, in trying to keep the size of this module down, what I'm thinking is to go over to more little tact buttons with LEDs instead...




These buttons will stick out some, but so big like the toggles.

I'd appreciate any feedback!

So, there's a few extra features and changes since I last posted on the Muff,

Rate Knob:
This will be a real Pot, not an encoder. It has only 2 functions, to set sample rate, or to select a slice manually for tweaking.

Slice Play Automation:
In real time, recorded slices can be "played" using the Slice Button (or T/G input) and the Rate Knob. (or SL.V CV Slice selector)
The Rate Knob can select the slices, as a beat is being drummed out on the button, and once done, the downbeat can be tapped onto the REC button, which terminates the Automation Recording and begins to Play it.
If S.SEL or Slice Select is off, then the Slice's sample rate can be recorded as it's being modified by the Rate Knob, or a CV input on SL.V.
Even cooler, if the Slice Selector is on, the Rate knob can be used to select slices, while the RATECV changes the sample rate for each.
Can't wait to program this one!

SLICE & PLAY priority:

If a Slice is being played, say in a loop, PLAY can jump on to it and Granulize, miniLoop around, or instantly change the start/end inside the slice.
Once the Slice is released, the Play will stay inside the slice until released.
If PLAY, on the other hand is in progress, then a playing a slice will momentarily override the play (and Start/End/Gmove/position stuff) to just play the slice.

Playing Record:

During a record, Play and Slice will work, without interrupting the record!
This is really useful for playing slices off a sequencer, while still recording and creating slices (manually or via T/G input). As the slice count grows, so does the range/resolution of slices accessed proportionately.
If the Slice Play Option has been set to "Notes", then the Slice Select CV will be regarded as CV Notes, which means the slices, once assigned to a "note" will always stay the same. A note that doesn't yet have a slice will be rolled around to play an equiv. slice already recorded.

One cool thing is if in Echo Mode, the Play Gran/reverse/looping will be fed into the echo, which can be heard afterwards trailing off.

16 Slice Display:
Slices, when being selected, will be displayed in the knob circle, on the Red LEDs. 1-8, then with the yellow LED 9-16. After that, if there's more slices, the yellow will toggle every 8.
It's crude, but it's pretty easy to use!

Echo Variable Record Sample Rate:
As my original Sampler has this, I only felt right putting it on the Reflexe. The rate initially will be 48KHz until a second Record tap (T/G event) sets the echo time, then the Yellow circle LED will indicate 48KHz. The Center of the Rate Knob must be passed to change the sample rate. This is so it doesn't suddenly jump.
With RATE CV input on the other hand, anything goes!
Turning up/down the Rate knob during echo mode will increase/decrease the echo time as well.

There's so many other things that can be done, but I'll have to stop here for fear of turning this post into a user manual!

Having fun with this!

Cheers!
Padrat
Good lord, talk about density! You've thought of everything!
PK808370
Not surprised you thought of everything! Do I understand correctly that you built a boat? (your link on a previous page) It is fantastic Clap
meatbeatz
looking good!!
Sandrine
PK808370 wrote:
Not surprised you thought of everything! Do I understand correctly that you built a boat? (your link on a previous page) It is fantastic Clap


Oh really? I don't remember that! I usually try to keep my electronic life and sailing life separate hehe

I couldn't have done it without Gena, my alternate self

Thanks Padrat and Meatbeatz, any suggestions? hmmm.....
meatbeatz
Sandrine wrote:


Thanks Padrat and Meatbeatz, any suggestions? hmmm.....


If I was to split hairs... I would've grouped the AC input and output jacks as a L/R pair. When I get a chance I'll look back through the thread and if something comes to mind I'll let you know. Top job so far! thumbs up
Sandrine
meatbeatz wrote:
Sandrine wrote:


Thanks Padrat and Meatbeatz, any suggestions? hmmm.....


If I was to split hairs... I would've grouped the AC input and output jacks as a L/R pair. When I get a chance I'll look back through the thread and if something comes to mind I'll let you know. Top job so far! thumbs up


Thanks Meatbbeatz!

Yes, I have been looking at that too. The reason it is like that is because of the intended "Expander" module and the way the 2 channels can be split up.
The left can be the FX channel, with all the MiniLoop/Granulizer/reverse/stutter/Slice and pitch shift stuff, while the Right can be a tempo/free layer looper and echo simultaneously. So they've been kept separate.

But as the programming advances, the two are getting a bit blurred, so those may change. I know it makes more sense.
If I switched the FX side (for with expander panel) to the right, it could still be labelled as such.

I've also been playing with the Start/End Loop CV input control voltage range. It is presently positive input only, but I'm torn between that, and making them full range -5V to +5V. The knobs become summing controls as it sits, not attenuators.

Thanks for the suggestion MB!
glennfin
WOW!! eek! Awesome!... I've been away from the forum for a while (life gets in the way) and discovered this! amazing.... I'll ask the obvious question... when will it be available? and I'm assuming this won't be a kit although I'd sure like that...
Sandrine
glennfin wrote:
WOW!! eek! Awesome!... I've been away from the forum for a while (life gets in the way) and discovered this! amazing.... I'll ask the obvious question... when will it be available? and I'm assuming this won't be a kit although I'd sure like that...


I'm never away from Da Wiggla! Carry my little notebook everywhere, except if I'm doing concrete work or under someone's house (That'd be just weird!)

DIY? We're trying to make it more DIY-able, but there's a lot of SMD stuff.
I was thinking on having an audio processing board that is separate from the panel board, which wil be entirely DIY-able, then just plug in the processor board (which I'm not doing after this prototype, machines can do it better!)

Then, finally on the back will be an off-the-shelf Arduino Atmega 2560 with USB, so it'll be easily updatable via the USB cord included (from me or other source)

I can source all of the parts for a kit as they're here already.
7 pots, 15 jacks, 4 12x12 Buttons & Caps, 7 mini tact buttons, 31 3mm LEDs, a 5mm RGB LED, 4 Davies knobs, a Marshall knob, M/F 40 pin 2.54mm double header(or 2x20), headers for power, Expansion interconnect, the Atmega, and the Atmega board itself would be the BOM pretty much.

The big confusion around here is whether to make the Arduino SW open source (that'd mean taking out swear words etc from the Rem statements and organizing things a bit...not my thing)

Things are zipping right along otherwise, and I forecast the first of these will be available within a month. Definitely before Xmas! I'm accustomed to getting things done quickly.
meatbeatz
Sandrine wrote:
Yes, I have been looking at that too. The reason it is like that is because of the intended "Expander" module and the way the 2 channels can be split up.
The left can be the FX channel, with all the MiniLoop/Granulizer/reverse/stutter/Slice and pitch shift stuff, while the Right can be a tempo/free layer looper and echo simultaneously. So they've been kept separate.


I see. In that case I'd leave as is. It definitely makes more sense that way. I like where you are going with this badboi. applause
meatbeatz
Sandrine wrote:
That has given me a couple of ideas though!

A port to link multiple units together so they sync from any master

.. and

A DC (not decoupled) input switch to allow sampling of CV voltage direct (using existing CV control input) so a CV can be recorded instead of audio. This would be a mode I suppose.

Are these good/useful?


YES! Has CV recording already been implemented?
Sandrine
meatbeatz wrote:
Sandrine wrote:
That has given me a couple of ideas though!

A port to link multiple units together so they sync from any master

.. and

A DC (not decoupled) input switch to allow sampling of CV voltage direct (using existing CV control input) so a CV can be recorded instead of audio. This would be a mode I suppose.

Are these good/useful?


YES! Has CV recording already been implemented?


Oh no! That was the previous previous version, we've decided to break that away and create a complete CV recorder module more tuned to the task. edit-(also underway, no facia as of yet!) There were too many compromises and the way many parts are handled with CV would be much better off tuned specifically for that.
On the other hand, a 20 Hz+ moving CV could be recorded, but it has to keep moving or it will be lost. Also it wouldn't be linear, which..er might be interesting nanners

On your previous post, it's got me thinking! Decisions decisions...
meatbeatz
Sandrine wrote:
Oh no! That was the previous previous version, we've decided to break that away and create a complete CV recorder module more tuned to the task. edit-(also underway, no facia as of yet!)


even better!
glennfin
I don't have a problem with the SMD stuff, that's what I do at my day job very frustrating but I can see that being an issue for many folks. A pre-made / assembled (machine wave soldered) processor board is probably a good idea. Swear words in REM statements... that's funny...

Looking forward to this. Thanks for all the hard work!



Sandrine wrote:
glennfin wrote:
WOW!! eek! Awesome!... I've been away from the forum for a while (life gets in the way) and discovered this! amazing.... I'll ask the obvious question... when will it be available? and I'm assuming this won't be a kit although I'd sure like that...


I'm never away from Da Wiggla! Carry my little notebook everywhere, except if I'm doing concrete work or under someone's house (That'd be just weird!)

DIY? We're trying to make it more DIY-able, but there's a lot of SMD stuff.
I was thinking on having an audio processing board that is separate from the panel board, which wil be entirely DIY-able, then just plug in the processor board (which I'm not doing after this prototype, machines can do it better!)

Then, finally on the back will be an off-the-shelf Arduino Atmega 2560 with USB, so it'll be easily updatable via the USB cord included (from me or other source)

I can source all of the parts for a kit as they're here already.
7 pots, 15 jacks, 4 12x12 Buttons & Caps, 7 mini tact buttons, 31 3mm LEDs, a 5mm RGB LED, 4 Davies knobs, a Marshall knob, M/F 40 pin 2.54mm double header(or 2x20), headers for power, Expansion interconnect, the Atmega, and the Atmega board itself would be the BOM pretty much.

The big confusion around here is whether to make the Arduino SW open source (that'd mean taking out swear words etc from the Rem statements and organizing things a bit...not my thing)

Things are zipping right along otherwise, and I forecast the first of these will be available within a month. Definitely before Xmas! I'm accustomed to getting things done quickly.
mOBiTh
I'm also up for a complete DIY-SMD build but I know it's not for everyone.

Keep the swear words wink
brother303
I would vote for presoldered smd and diy-th...

Guinness ftw!
Sandrine
There is one 0.50mm pitch chip that is a bugger without anything but a hot air station, although I have done them with a fine tip and extra long pads to run off to.

Keeping the audio processor board pre-fab is the way I'm going, as the resistors and caps can be 402 size, thus saving a lot of space/extra board.

I have been battling with an issue with CV inputs:



Which voltage range and offset or attenuation should there be for the Rate, Start/End, and slice controls?
The EQ CV would probably be best +/- 5V, zero V being flat response. The control when jacked in becomes an attenuvertor.
The Rate CV on the other hand might be better with an offset (on the adj knob) rather than an attenuvertor, although the big Rate knob could act as an offset (when not selected to control something else)
The Start/End CV's were initially going to be just 0-5V, but now I'm thinking +/- 5V with the knobs controlling offset.
The Slice select CV, which is the most difficult to decide, is presently +/-5V to match CV note range, but I can see uses for 0-5V.

Does anyone (with infinite wisdom and patching experience we're not worthy ) have any preferences or thoughts on this?
Quasi
This looks amazing. You have literally thought of everything!!!
Maco
nanners

Nice look amazing, so we will have main core available to implement our own control panel?

Any estimate on prices?
meatbeatz
Sandrine wrote:
There is one 0.50mm pitch chip that is a bugger without anything but a hot air station, although I have done them with a fine tip and extra long pads to run off to.

Keeping the audio processor board pre-fab is the way I'm going, as the resistors and caps can be 402 size, thus saving a lot of space/extra board.

I have been battling with an issue with CV inputs:



Which voltage range and offset or attenuation should there be for the Rate, Start/End, and slice controls?
The EQ CV would probably be best +/- 5V, zero V being flat response. The control when jacked in becomes an attenuvertor.
The Rate CV on the other hand might be better with an offset (on the adj knob) rather than an attenuvertor, although the big Rate knob could act as an offset (when not selected to control something else)
The Start/End CV's were initially going to be just 0-5V, but now I'm thinking +/- 5V with the knobs controlling offset.
The Slice select CV, which is the most difficult to decide, is presently +/-5V to match CV note range, but I can see uses for 0-5V.

Does anyone (with infinite wisdom and patching experience we're not worthy ) have any preferences or thoughts on this?


I wouldn't say I have infinite wisdom but I do have patching experience. wink

With parameters like Start/End and Slice select I'd imagine wanting to use a step sequencer to dial in a specific position and as many (most?) step sequencers are 0-5V. I agree the EQ CV should be +/-5V with attenuverter.
Sandrine
Maco wrote:
nanners

Nice look amazing, so we will have main core available to implement our own control panel?

Any estimate on prices?


Yes it looks that way. It's not the core, that's deeper yet, but the interface will be.

The price isn't set yet, need to evaluate the manufacture costs, which requires a finished design for that section.
Ready-to-go will be in the $300-$500 range. I know that's quite a wide range, for now that's all I can say. It's those annoying 0.50 mm pitch chips, expensive setup etc. smile


Yes thanks Meatbeatz, that makes sense. I suppose with an offset on the Start/End inputs if an LFO or VCO or Audio was used it could be attenuated at the source.
So the Slice can be 0-5V, the only fixed value input, but with a future setting to switch to +/- 5V.
The Sample Rate CV input can be attenuated, and offset by the Rate knob.

Great Quasi!


Another thing I was monkeying with today was the Sample Rate Range. It was augmented to +/- 4 octaves for the past few days, but it's a ridiculous range for the Rate Knob! Voice samples just "squiggle" when at +4, but a bass guitar is quite legible. On the other end of the spectrum, -4 octaves is a bit more fun, slowing down complex sounds can be fun.
Then this AM I took it to +/- 5 octaves, and pretty much useless for anything, albeit interesting.
So what I'm thinking is to leave the Knob at +/- 2 octaves, but the CV (+/- 5V max range) can do the full 5 octaves.
To put this into perspective, a 1KHz tone recorded at 48KHz will range downward 500, 250, 125, 62.5, and 31.25 Hz, then upward to 2Khz, 4Khz, 8KHz, 16KHz, 32KHz.
Amer1231
So no diy option on this one ? waah
Sandrine
Amer1231 wrote:
So no diy option on this one ? waah


As I posted earlier in the thread-
Quote:
DIY? We're trying to make it more DIY-able, but there's a lot of SMD stuff.
I was thinking on having an audio processing board that is separate from the panel board, which wil be entirely DIY-able, then just plug in the processor board (which I'm not doing after this prototype, machines can do it better!)

Then, finally on the back will be an off-the-shelf Arduino Atmega 2560 with USB, so it'll be easily updatable via the USB cord included (from me or other source)

I can source all of the parts for a kit as they're here already.
7 pots, 15 jacks, 4 12x12 Buttons & Caps, 7 mini tact buttons, 31 3mm LEDs, a 5mm RGB LED, 4 Davies knobs, a Marshall knob, M/F 40 pin 2.54mm double header(or 2x20), headers for power, Expansion interconnect, the Atmega, and the Atmega board itself would be the BOM pretty much.


In trying to avoid another board layer, all of the parts on the digital audio processor section are SMD. The prototype has this separate with 2 38 pin chips,adc/dac one .65mm the other .50mm pitch. There's a .40 analog sw, a 58 pin .80mm chip, then the rest are SOIC/SOP with the exception of the controller which is a 40 pin DIP on a socket.
On the mother board there's a 28 pin SOIC and a 28 pin TSSOP (.65), then a few SOIC's. This board also seats the Atmega board.
On the panel board there's the pots, switches, LEDs, headers, and jacks.

What I'm trying to do it get all of the fine SMD chips on one board, and the less fine SOIC chips on the other board, which in combination with the panel board would make this DIY-able, save the the digital audio processor board.

Sure, I could make the boards available, but with anything less than a re-flow station, there's parts that won't allow soldering. I've done it with a super-fine tip, but I have 30 years of soldering experience, and even then it's quite an accomplishment!

All that said, I love the DIY spirit, and am striving to make this as DIY-able as possible. In any event, it won't be for the beginner.
gwpt
Only just saw this one, wow, this looks great. Very interested hyper hyper
Sandrine
It is, can't wait to finish and do vids and such!
Sandrine
Here's the Sampler section prototype board, finally! ..now I can put the original sampler back the way it was and stuff it back into the SIAB project.




It gives you an idea of what a DIY challenge that section would be. I wish all the chip manufacturers could've continued with SOIC. That was a nice size.
The giant chip is 54 pins @ 0.8mm pitch.

Still pretty manageable with a good soldering iron. The fairly large chip to the right is 0.65 pitch, which can be soldered with a very fine tip/good quality station. The vertical is 0.50, which is a "dual solder" where 2 pins end up soldered, then the iron is moved down onto the trace so expel the excess solder, and hopefully the shorted pins will separate!
Otherwise, a hot air station is required. I'll always give it a go with the iron first.

The 40 pin chip on the left looks giant! But I want a socket on that.

BTW, for anyone interested, for prototype & one-off boards I use pre-sensitized board. I print up 2 transparencies and tape one to the other for extra light blocking, then, printed is reverse, lay the toner side down on the board and expose for 5 minutes (MG Chemicals board)

If a glass sheet is used, then weighted down with rocks or whatever, the impression is always very good.

Sizing is done by measuring the board on the screen, once shrunk down in the software (I use Macromedia Flash to draw the boards, always the same scale) then adjust the printer size to match.

Then a test print is done..



and chips placed on it to ensure the scale is right.

It's kind of out of the ordinary, but in 1 day (or 2 as it was here) I can design a board and have components on it by the next day. 1 day service! Can't beat that applause
ObfuscatedVisuals
Sandrine wrote:
Here's the Sampler section prototype board, finally! ..now I can put the original sampler back the way it was and stuff it back into the SIAB project.




Looks awesome? Any updates on this?
Sandrine
Yep! I started a new thread to lessen confusion hehe

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=150299&postdays=0&po storder=asc&start=0
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