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Yamaha Reface
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> General Gear  
Author Yamaha Reface
Synthmatic
Saw this on Synthtopia. Yamaha analog?

https://yamahasynth.com/
n_m
Likely modelling of this here pile with a luxury keyboard.



Summer NAMM?
dopefiend
Shit!! There's mention of piano-like keys and of the "pipe dream" of owning a CS-80, and the background music sounds like the CS-80/60/50 ring modulator.......sounds way too good to be true!!!! woah woah love love
de_raaf
kind makes me think that yamaha is going the aira route maybe?
winterhater
yamaha doesnt make me think of techno like roland or korg, im curious to see what they have come up with
Luap
oops, vid is already there in the first post, ignore smile
Paranormal Patroler
Definitely curious.

Quote:
Get ready to create your sound any place, any time


Sounds like a promise for hands-on UI to me.
IR
de_raaf wrote:
kind makes me think that yamaha is going the aira route maybe?
probably, based on the silly name they chose it would seem to be some kind of virtual thing
Vacancy Of Disco
keeping my expectations low...hardware controller for cs80 vst.
Funky40
edited: sorry, total pointless post
( i was folled by the countdown )



not expecting much.
as others do: a "VST" with UI. The name indeed suggests it.
Sammymyman
Hi smile first post here. I think that Yamaha may truly suprise us here. Maybe even take the korg route with a smaller version CS80. Fingers crossed!
Fidgit
"I’m working with Yamaha on a project right now; I can’t say what it is, but it’s pretty crazy. This synthesizer has new technology that’s never been implemented before, so it’s totally alien to anything I’ve ever used. I’ve had to spend a few weeks just understanding the architecture of it. "

- Richard Devine
flo
Well that sounds interesting thumbs up
Morley
Interesting...
johny_gtr
imho this teaser doesn't create any GAS value. A lot of chat and unknown people faces, music on background. Please more MOOG-style demos or MOS-LAB live playing videos.
h4ndcrafted
I kind of hope it is virtual and a new take, bc these reissues aren't really doing it for me, at least the ones i've tried.

Save the BS2, but than thats not having to compete with golden era synths, so has less to live up to.
nickster
Interesting! eek! Just looking at the video what I can glean is. A CS type Ring Modulator. Controls that look like the paddle switches used on the CS synths and a keyboard that looked like it had piano style keys but this was difficult to determine.
I have high hopes for Yamaha bringing out something truly interesting. But we will all have to wait and see.
StereoNode
Just a guess here.. Refacing of the Yamaha PSR-273, now w/ a sweet new ringmod, re-amped "studio kit" as well??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmip1ZL5h0k

Rockin' Banana!
flabby
StereoNode wrote:
Just a guess here.. Refacing of the Yamaha PSR-273, now w/ a sweet new ringmod, re-amped "studio kit" as well??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmip1ZL5h0k

Rockin' Banana!


hihi

They said it was portable, which in this day and age means it's got to be SUPER - small! …. and have usb. Maybe we'll be getting a FM DX Necktie

dopefiend
flabby wrote:
StereoNode wrote:
Just a guess here.. Refacing of the Yamaha PSR-273, now w/ a sweet new ringmod, re-amped "studio kit" as well??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmip1ZL5h0k

Rockin' Banana!


hihi

They said it was portable, which in this day and age means it's got to be SUPER - small! …. and have usb. Maybe we'll be getting a FM DX Necktie
]


Uh, I didn't hear anything about it being portable..... seriously, i just don't get it
They should enter the analog resurgence race with a digital FM engine of X number of operators, which could then make waves that could be processed through true analog re-issues of the CS-80 filters....give it more EG's and LFO's than the original CS had... Give it lots of sliders and knobs. Give it a ribbon controller and a semi-weighted keyboard with poly aftertouch...oh, and sell it for less than a Music Ea$el..

Arghhhhhhhhhhh Drunken Homer Simpson
StereoNode
dopefiend wrote:
flabby wrote:
StereoNode wrote:
Just a guess here.. Refacing of the Yamaha PSR-273, now w/ a sweet new ringmod, re-amped "studio kit" as well??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmip1ZL5h0k

Rockin' Banana!


hihi

They said it was portable, which in this day and age means it's got to be SUPER - small! …. and have usb. Maybe we'll be getting a FM DX Necktie
]


Uh, I didn't hear anything about it being portable..... seriously, i just don't get it
They should enter the analog resurgence race with a digital FM engine of X number of operators, which could then make waves that could be processed through true analog re-issues of the CS-80 filters....give it more EG's and LFO's than the original CS had... Give it lots of sliders and knobs. Give it a ribbon controller and a semi-weighted keyboard with poly aftertouch...oh, and sell it for less than a Music Ea$el..

Arghhhhhhhhhhh Drunken Homer Simpson




"Get ready to create your sound any place, any time."... Honestly, I want to create "My Sound" in my studio... with a big ass synth! The fact that is portable already bums me out, I just want a CS80, and I know the second I buy one, THATS when Yamaha will release the reissue. fml Russian Roulette
StereoNode
So after doing some internet recon, I can definitely say that it is 4 different synths (Red,Black,White,Brown), modeled after some of there older synths (CS80,DX7 ect).. they look pretty small, the red one is blurry in the picture, but you can clearly see the old CS switches on it. Richard Devine said some pretty wild things about it, don't know much else Guinness ftw!
dopefiend
StereoNode wrote:
dopefiend wrote:
flabby wrote:
StereoNode wrote:
Just a guess here.. Refacing of the Yamaha PSR-273, now w/ a sweet new ringmod, re-amped "studio kit" as well??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmip1ZL5h0k

Rockin' Banana!


hihi

They said it was portable, which in this day and age means it's got to be SUPER - small! …. and have usb. Maybe we'll be getting a FM DX Necktie
]


Uh, I didn't hear anything about it being portable..... seriously, i just don't get it
They should enter the analog resurgence race with a digital FM engine of X number of operators, which could then make waves that could be processed through true analog re-issues of the CS-80 filters....give it more EG's and LFO's than the original CS had... Give it lots of sliders and knobs. Give it a ribbon controller and a semi-weighted keyboard with poly aftertouch...oh, and sell it for less than a Music Ea$el..

Arghhhhhhhhhhh Drunken Homer Simpson




"Get ready to create your sound any place, any time."... Honestly, I want to create "My Sound" in my studio... with a big ass synth! The fact that is portable already bums me out, I just want a CS80, and I know the second I buy one, THATS when Yamaha will release the reissue. fml Russian Roulette


As much as I love my CS80, the damn thing is WAY too big and heavy. If I lived in a bigger house and had a more tolerant wife, then it would not be a problem... I ended up selling it to a really nice dude in NH, to make room for a Korg PS-3200, which has now turned into a lovely Rhodes Chroma w/Enabler, and that already exceeds the quota of massive instruments for an 1,800-cubic ft. pigeon hole (I've been pushing my luck with the Roland V-Piano, the Kronos, the Voyager OS and all the modular shit!)...I would love to buy it back, but my wife would divorce me... cry That's why I would not mind a smaller iteration of it.. hyper
basicbasic
My guess: A bunch of (decent) emulations of analog and FM classics with various hardware/interface plug-out options that are all running the same modular backend (ala Nord Modular) which can be re-configured every which way (but loose). There will be a CS-XX 'preset', a DX 'preset', a drum machine 'preset', a sampler 'preset' etc (all with optional hardware controllers - collect the set!) but you can rewire all this via software (a little like the Roland Aira effect modules).
tIB
Please be a reasonably small format knobby FM synth.
ignatius
tIB wrote:
Please be a reasonably small format knobby FM synth.


_exactly_ what i'd like to see... but i'm not going to get my hopes up.
nickster
Then there's this

https://youtu.be/o2YjEqo5wBw

https://youtu.be/_Gwq3Ygx3Nc
ignatius
nickster wrote:
Then there's this

https://youtu.be/o2YjEqo5wBw

https://youtu.be/_Gwq3Ygx3Nc


this too

https://youtu.be/PaBMmg-hdcc
nickster
My take so far is small minikeyed boxes with software generated sound. Elements of which can be possibly combined a la Arturia Origin. So nothing hardware wise that really jumps up and grabs my attention. They lost me at minikeys. And nothing software wise that is not already available. But for the gigging musician perhaps there is something useful. Bit of a disappointment. sad banana Was hoping for so much more from Yamaha.
nickster
"....this too

https://youtu.be/PaBMmg-hdcc[/quote]"

Ha Ha! nanners This cheered me up no end, thanks!
ignatius
nickster wrote:
My take so far is small minikeyed boxes with software generated sound. Elements of which can be possibly combined a la Arturia Origin. So nothing hardware wise that really jumps up and grabs my attention. They lost me at minikeys. And nothing software wise that is not already available. But for the gigging musician perhaps there is something useful. Bit of a disappointment. sad banana Was hoping for so much more from Yamaha.


if one of them is a small FM synth with knobs.. i'll have a look..

i guess.. we'll see.
porphyrion
The physical modelling of the VL1 with a great logically layed out interface would be on the top of my list (FS1R next). I can dream, right...
koam
I was initially irrationally excited by this, because Yamaha, but these (disingenuous, overproduced, annoying) videos are killing any interest I had before we've even seen the thing.

As soon as the talking heads trot out the word "revolutionary" my brain turns off. If only product announcements went like this:

"We are Yamaha. We've made this new synth. It sounds like this, works like this and looks like this. We think its really good because <insert reasons 1 - 3>. Its available on XYZ date for ABC amount of varied human currencies."
fano
are those people real or are they extras?
nickster
fano wrote:
are those people real or are they extras?


I think I recognize one of them but I can't believe it is him so perhaps it is not and just a look alike. Either I need Guinness ftw! or better glasses or both.
Rigo
nickster wrote:
Either I need Guinness ftw! or better glasses or both.

Since this is Muffs it will be both hihi
Would Yamaha make something not derived from Motif ? They can surprise me, no problem.
FrankV
"...but it seems like a piano player made the keys."

You're right madam, you really can't describe it. WTF. Nice try, though. Maybe next time slip in "very unique" to your monologue?

The tease marketing strategy doesn't really work for me. Clearly it works for them.

At any rate, despite sounding like a grumpasaurus, I'm actually quite interested to see what the product[s] end up being...

Staying tuned!

FV
neuroportal
The problem is, firms employ marketing departments. Marketing departments live in a world of marketing agencies, hype and expense accounts...so they get carried away and fail to impress the very people they want to buy this stuff.

Personally I would prefer "hey, look what we did!" and if it is genuinely cool, it will sell.

I mean look at the beatstep pro. Not even out yet!
flabby
ignatius wrote:
tIB wrote:
Please be a reasonably small format knobby FM synth.


_exactly_ what i'd like to see... but i'm not going to get my hopes up.


Yeah I'm secretly holding out for an updated version of the DX200.
Paranormal Patroler
neuroportal wrote:
The problem is, firms employ marketing departments. Marketing departments live in a world of marketing agencies, hype and expense accounts...so they get carried away and fail to impress the very people they want to buy this stuff.

Personally I would prefer "hey, look what we did!" and if it is genuinely cool, it will sell.

I mean look at the beatstep pro. Not even out yet!


I totally agree, and I work with marketing people. This style is soooo last decade. With information being freakishly fast who has the time to give a fuck these days? Either tell me what this is or sod off. I'm totally interested too see what Yamaha makes, but I am not excited.
thevegasnerve
I think one teaser would have been sufficient. That being said, I am expecting a digital synth with replaceable faces, as crazy as that is to envision. At least that would be interesting depending on the sound...
CF3
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Either tell me what this is or sod off.


Amen.
What are you selling? Oh another "emulation" product, fantastic meh
So, you say it's "revolutionary" do you? How so?
Where is the specs and hi-res pics of the front AND BACK?

Stop wasting everyone's time and spit it out already.
stinkfist
Ha ha - its mad innit ... Talk about stretching it out..

It better be good !!
koam
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Either tell me what this is or sod off.

applause

I'd have that on a t-shirt smile
Paranormal Patroler
I see they added a hashtag. Good work Yamaha! Maybe we can follow the trends in MW and use hashtags. I'll be the first. How about this: #refaceyourmarketing
thebot
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
I see they added a hashtag. Good work Yamaha! Maybe we can follow the trends in MW and use hashtags. I'll be the first. How about this: #refaceyourmarketing


#refacethewallonthenaughtystep
brackets
I'm preety sure it will be a "DX" revival
StereoNode
I swear... If the CS80 ends up being that white one.. someone is going to pay Exxxcellent
mmp
visible cow
I don't see many (any?) knobs on that DX style synth....they wouldn't do that to me, would they?
GGW
Looks like mini keys then?
I don't know why they do that. Just make it a box.
Strange campaign. It seems to be over before they got to the point.
NYMo
Def mini keys...they're tiny !
The CS 80 thing looks interesting though.
I thought there was a Cp70b and a YC 45 D too ?

Cheers
StereoNode
mmp wrote:


Definitely doesn't look analog Russian Roulette
StereoNode
NYMo wrote:
Def mini keys...they're tiny !
The CS 80 thing looks interesting though.
I thought there was a Cp70b and a YC 45 D too ?

Cheers


Is the CS the white one? Hope not
fano
lich
so.. plugins??? these things look tiny
ignatius
visible cow wrote:
I don't see many (any?) knobs on that DX style synth....they wouldn't do that to me, would they?


Jesus. What a bunch of idiots. How could they not put knobs on the DX reface shit????
mckenic
iPad/iPhone, PC editor question

I woulda SO loved if they made the synths in the fan renders floating around a few years ago... SUCH a missed opportunity if its a non-knobby synth!
jazzbo58
That cured me of wanting any of those. Dead Banana
mckenic
Well Imna wait to hear the sounds but excitement level = 2% :-(

Im not going to post the direct pic as it will disappoint too much if it shows up in this thread but why didnt they make this concept a reality:
http://i0.wp.com/www.synthtopia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/yamaha- dx-10.jpg
Paranormal Patroler
Yamaha, you can still hire me to give you advice on what you need to market! Don't be amazed that these will fail.


Best,



PP
Xmit
d'oh!
holy crap. all that hoohah with Roland a while back : the Aira stuff is looking like Macbeth or something now compared to this Mr. Green

epic fail Yamaha. Dead Banana
Isaiah
http://m.kr.yamaha.com/ko/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/synth esizers/reface/
chamomileshark
I guess the "any place, any time" translates to something really small and light.

So no replacement for a CS80 which I would have thought needs to have a decent full sized keyboard even if it was just playing a VST engine.

Similarly for the other Yamaha product I'd like to see, the DX1/5.

the problem with big build ups is that you really piss off the people who are disappointed because it's not what was hoped for.
JohnLRice
Pictures and audio demos here:
http://kr.yamaha.com/ko/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/synthes izers/reface/?mode=series#tab=product_lineup
chamomileshark
hmm, listened to the CS demos and had to stop. Didn't really like the sound at all - didn't scream CS to me but maybe that's my lack of knowlede re what they sound like beyond Vangelis and Eddie Jobson.

DX was a little better but again sort of failed to inspire.
amnesia
So why is Richard Devine sayings its like nothing ever before? No offence or dig at Richard but I wonder if he was talking about the same Yamaha product ?
amnesia
Create your sound any place any time sounds a bit naff.

Not such a huge selling point really in todays world.
amnesia
So basically these are just midi keyboard controllers?
flo
DX might be fun, just as all DX thumbs up
IR
They're kind of cool, but not as cool as the hype. Slightly more interesting for me than Roland AIRA, but probably won't get one.
stainers
amnesia wrote:
So why is Richard Devine sayings its like nothing ever before? No offence or dig at Richard but I wonder if he was talking about the same Yamaha product ?

After his promotion for the Akai Wolf I wouldn't be surprised at the integrity of any of his endorsements
mckenic
Updated: a source (not Richard) tells CDM that the project he’s describing isn’t Reface.

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2015/06/new-yamaha-synths-will-include-t otally-alien-new-technology-says-interview/
theremin
replicalex
some better quality pics. The DX and CS look interesting but why not a more knobby interface on the DX ? hmmm.....







replicalex
From the VSE forum, looks legit info though.

Common specs:
Size: 530 mm (20 7/8") x 60 mm (2 3/8") x 175 mm (6 7/8")
Weight: 1.9 kg (4 lbs, 3 oz) (not including batteries)
37 HQ mini keys

Ins and outs:
DC IN (12 V) jack
PHONES (6.3 mm, stereo phone jack)
MIDI (mini-DIN IN/OUT)
AUX IN (3.5 mm, mini stereo phone jack)
L/MONO, R (6.3 mm, TS phone jack, unbalanced)
USB (TO HOST)
FOOT CONTROLLER: FC7 (optional) (to adjust the volume)

DX:
4 operator 12 algorithms 32 voices(patches)
Max Poly 8
Engine FM

CP:
6 keyboard types (rdI, rdII, wr, clv, toy, cp)
Max Poly 128
Engine SCM + AWM2

YC:
5 organ types (hammond, vox, farfisa, a (Japanese transistor organ) ,Yamaha YC-45D
Max Poly 128
Engine AWM (organ flutes)

CS:
5 Osc types
Max Poly 8
Engine AN
AdamJay
Every tool is a weapon if you hold it right... especially ones with LITTLE BUILT IN SPEAKERS!!!! It's peanut butter jelly time! nanners
thx2112
Odd for Yamaha to come out with that with all the hype.
sduck
Those look terrible. Like toys. I certainly wouldn't buy one, probably wouldn't even be seen trying one. 4 operators for the DX? Even though it's software based? That's absurd. And where are the mod wheels? And... a pitch bend switch????
Isaiah
While the level of hype is certainly disproportionate to the product, if you consider them "toys" they actually look okay.
I think they'll be successful with the same target audience as the Korg Volca series.

Looking at the specs, there are some plus points:
-MIDI isn't USB only.
-1/4" jacks.
-Stereo.
-Pedal input.
Not bad for for a "toy".

Depending on price and how they sound (the Korean pages have been taken down now) I might take a closer look at the DX or YC.
I only gig with my NL2X in my band, but I frequently use organ-like patches and have wanted to explore FM synthesis, so either of these could be ideal (again, depending on the price and sound).
Sit one on the Nord and control it via MIDI.
For someone like myself who doesn't drive, one of these and a few pedals could stuffed into my rucksack would allow me to cycle to rehearsal rather than have to catch the bus.

Just got to wait and see the price and how they sound first...
replicalex
yeah was thinking if priced at Volca level say around £100 then might be worth a look. Its all about the sound really, not how they look,... for me anyways.
BTS
These could be interesting. If they are close to the Volca Sample price (~$200), I think these could be worth a closer look.

I do wish the CS had some sort of CV interface, but since it's VA like the Aira series, it's understandable.
stromcat
Excited to try these. I think it's easy to say that the DX should have had lots of knobs - but of course there's a family design principle here, and that would preclude having an insane amount of front panel control - Just look at the Jellinghaus - 148 knobs required to control the full 6op architecture.

But having a simple 4op with big LCD screen, 4-finger multi touch editing of parameters, effects, in a handsome little wee brown case...that sounds like fun.
NYMo
Yeah...I can understand why they have kept the Dx one fairly original..although it is obviously meant to be like a Dx100.
But I don't really understand a CP70b on a tiny keyboard like that !
Hopefully the CS 80 will be worth possibly purchasing.

Cheers
visible cow
Depending on the price I might buy a DX, if only to encourage Yamaha to continue making FM synths. Oh how I want something like that DX10 mock-up.
rush340
I kind of like the way they look, but at the same time I'm not interested in them at all. Was really expecting something more considering the teasers.

The CS seems like it could be a fun beginner synth.
pricklyrobot
A little sampling keyboard seems like an obvious addition to this product line. A modern VSS-30/SK-1, with MIDI and memory, seems like a product niche that still hasn't been successfully filled.
vegas7188
I'm definitely interested in the dx one, dx100 is probably my most regrettable synth sale, and this looks pretty much identical.

If it has decent usb control centre enabling easier editing and saving of patches then that would be very persuasive.

I personally much prefer small keys also=limited space at home+lack of actual piano-playing ability.
tIB
OK Yamaha, you failed me on a knobby DX, but if you are going to do another knobless please allow everything to be hit with midi CC... polease!!!!
joey
why the fuck does the FM synth have no knobs?

have they learned nothing?

what a pile of dogshit

very frustrating
lich
is the cs one going to have polyphonic aftertouch on that tiny thing?? whats the point if not? :/
h4ndcrafted
£100-£150

A fun toy if you have the room, if not a bit pointless and they will swim on ebay.

So wait and net, they are kinda cute in a 'collect them all' kind of way. Maybe we will see them on the back of cereal packets ?


I can't help thinking this sort of stuff goes down well in the Asian market for some reason, probably my preconceived ideas, but they would of done better being boxes or half racks or something.
3vcos
It looks like there are 4 touch strips in the 'data entry' section for editing sounds. They aren't knobs but touch strips can be fun on their own. Kinda goes with 80s retro DX type stuff too.



joey wrote:
why the fuck does the FM synth have no knobs?

have they learned nothing?

what a pile of dogshit

very frustrating
Bob Borries


Here's a size comparison to someones hand and a very fuzzy view from the back.
shamann
Shame they didn't do a black lower octave on the red one, that would have looked sharp.

If these can compete with the price of those mini, USB-only MIDI controllers, I can see some potential since these have hostless MIDI I/O and you'd get a nifty little synth thrown in. But the absence of pitch bend seems weird in that regard.
Paranormal Patroler
I vote for fully MiDi controllable small, keyboardless, desktop versions. Those will sell more.
h4ndcrafted
You can click on the view here for bigger size views of the CS, which is a VA from what I read on gearsluts ?

btw that sound file is down.

http://www.delchambre.be/cs/index.html


___Moderator edit -

please resize your giant pic file/link
de_raaf
small, seems like fun, more for young people, people that play in bands etc i think its a good way to restart, and hopefully the get into doing some bigger synths, the organ one has most appeal to me, dx would be cool if it sports more than sine wave, cs looks cool though white isn't so attrictive, but they seems like fun
amnesia
The Yamaha CS01 small synth that had the breath controller back in the 80s? I would love to have seen something like that.
Bob Borries
Here it is, The CS01 & Ca01 mark II from 1982-1984, except they're analog and monophonic.





32 mini keys.
DJFonzi
I kept thinking it's kind of funny that there's a leak about a Yamaha product with CS in the name, and everyone assumes it's a CS-80 reissue.
Randy
More toys. Are any of these manufacturers going to release any real instruments again?

Randy
CF3
Randy wrote:
More toys. Are any of these manufacturers going to release any real instruments again?

Randy


My thoughts exactly. With all the incredible technology and designs Yamaha must have patents for....we get more tabletop plastic trinkets. They seem to be regressing.
StereoNode
http://captiongenerator.com/49055/Hitler-Reacts-to-the-new-Yamaha-Refa ce

sad banana...
thesnow
Dave Smith and Moog continue to be the only champs in the game that know what a real keyboard controller is and should be
X PRO
I'll wait to play it myself before I pass judgement on the keyboard but I hope the keyboard itself is well built and plays nice.
oisin
joey wrote:
why the fuck does the FM synth have no knobs?

have they learned nothing?

what a pile of dogshit

very frustrating


cause its like, authentic, man. just like the original meh

(i agree)
Bob Borries
I didn't do this but someone filmed an interview with the Yamaha DX designer.

alijamieson
de_raaf wrote:
kind makes me think that yamaha is going the aira route maybe?


Think this is a template for loads of companies - give people what they think they want (analog styled classic synths) whilst compromising on some features to make them cheaper to mass produce and more compatible with software.

Am weirdly excited about this though. Would be awesome if Yamaha eventually moved into eurorack world as Roland did.
IR
^ I disagree though, the Yamaha products are a bit more original, even if I'm not super excited by them.

Aira lets you load in extra stuff, kits sounds whatever, this doesn't.

as for copiers, look at it this way:

Gakken synth>
1. Korg Monotron
2. Moog Werkstatt

Korg NanoKontrol> many copies, different manufacturers

MicroKorg>
1. Novation MiniNova
2. Roland JD-Xi

Reface doesn't fit in as a MicroKorg copy either, no style selector or other things. Yamaha had mini keys way before Korg: the CS01, DX100 and many others.
thx2112
Bob Borries wrote:
I didn't do this but someone filmed an interview with the Yamaha DX designer.


Argh. Beat me to it. lol
chamomileshark
Bob Borries wrote:
I didn't do this but someone filmed an interview with the Yamaha DX designer.



completely brilliant.
thesnow
Bob Borries wrote:
I didn't do this but someone filmed an interview with the Yamaha DX designer.


So good! applause
Bob Borries
This is the greatest marketing strategy I have ever witnessed! For the teaser so say ‘like a piano player made the keys' and evoke the CS-80, and then to leak flimsy mini toys with non-existant expression controls.

Then the biggest trick of all, they reveal a full sized keyboard with impeccable sound and build quality!

You sure did fool a lot of people Yamaha, kudos to you! W'ere within hours of the countdown expiring and the greatest joke to all musicians worldwide. lol
CF3
Bob Borries wrote:
I didn't do this but someone filmed an interview with the Yamaha DX designer.


holy shit that's awesome. applause
jahreed
anyone got any info on what will be available via midi cc?
alijamieson
alijamieson wrote:
de_raaf wrote:
kind makes me think that yamaha is going the aira route maybe?


Think this is a template for loads of companies - give people what they think they want (analog styled classic synths) whilst compromising on some features to make them cheaper to mass produce and more compatible with software.

Am weirdly excited about this though. Would be awesome if Yamaha eventually moved into eurorack world as Roland did.


Oh snap hadn't seen they'd been leaked when I posted this. They like shite sad banana
Samaepstein
Bob Borries wrote:
This is the greatest marketing strategy I have ever witnessed! For the teaser so say ‘like a piano player made the keys' and evoke the CS-80, and then to leak flimsy mini toys with non-existant expression controls.

Then the biggest trick of all, they reveal a full sized keyboard with impeccable sound and build quality!

You sure did fool a lot of people Yamaha, kudos to you! W'ere within hours of the countdown expiring and the greatest joke to all musicians worldwide. lol


Ha! Wouldn't doubt that one bit
Nofrenchtests
Depends on the price of the DX (and of course reviews) but I'm keen for an affordable digital fm synth.
kosh
Yamaha is so funny.
They left the 'P' off of 'PReface'.
So funny. Okay guys you can bring out the real synths now.
Guys?
Bob Borries
It's for real





nuromantix
I get that I am not the target audience for this, it's for young beginners etc, but a piano-sounds keyboard with 3 octaves of mini keys? That's just insane.

It sounds great. It needs at least 5 octaves of full size keys to be playable.
I just don't get it, NOBODY is gonna play that. Do people who are buying little volca-style techno boxes want wurlitzer & CP80 emulations?
sduck
Toys.
Bob Borries


Bob Borries




Nofrenchtests
Don't care if they are toys, that DX sounds sexy as fuck.
That is going to the top of my list.
Matos
The dx looks super fun, playable, and editable. Fun!
kosh
Time will tell whether these toys are actually any good.
But this is simply the most ill-conceived and executed
marketing campaign since BeatThang.
Like a Mentos commercial, the Reface promotion is
so overhyped and disingenuous it feels like parody.
No wonder people are shitting all over it.
Who the heck is the hack marketing exec that dreamed this up?
It feels like English is not the copywriters first language.
Someone certainly needs to take away his adjectives.
And the spokespeople... where in cheeselandia did
they dreg these poseurs up? So not authentic and
unimpressive. Blah blah blah. I hope they prove us all
wrong with a f-ing amazing product that puts their
marketing to shame (and shuts us up :-)
mckenic
£347? woah
shamann
mckenic wrote:
£347? :woah:

Street looks like it might be £289 (at least if this preorder page is right: https://www.djkit.com/yamaha/yamaha-reface-dx.html).

So, in the US, that's what, $450 street? Considering what you can get from Arturia/Roland/Novation/Korg/Waldorf for around the same price, I just don't get it. I guess the DX has the benefit of being FM in a very non-FM market.

Isn't supply chain optimization the whole point of big stupid conglomerates like Yamaha? You'd think for such limited instruments, dirt cheap would have been a goal.
Xmit
Ok... I take it back - the DX is possibly winning me over...
A portable,pristine sounding,hiss free version of my beloved DX21, with decent inbuilt digital fx sounds quite tempting actually. Get these down to more like £275 or so & I might, just might be tempted.
Nick Batt seems pretty taken with the build quality too... So if they don't feel & play like toys then there might be something in this.
I do like the sound of that DX demo. A lot. I love FM & 4op is fine for me - you can nail a sound rapidly - very rapidly by the look of this reface unit.
glissant
I find the DX one to be pretty enticing, despite the size. A desktop module version would have been nicer. The price on that one isn't too bad if it's as good as they make it seem... What else is there like it right now? I have a DX100 and it is pretty grainy and noisy in comparison. Looking forward to reading the manual at some point smile
mckenic


I'll take a look again when they are €100 on ebay methinks...
xclark
way too expensive for what they are.
h4ndcrafted
Love the DX.

£347, thats just fffing hilarious Yamaha , I don't care how well you built it.
The CS just looks super frustrating because you just wanna do more, also where was that bottom end ?

£347 for a tiny rhodes/clav emulation, you're off you're head.

Dx is the only one that remotely interests me, and it would have to get pretty cool to make me part with that money.
h4ndcrafted
nm.
shaft9000
The DX is slightly tempting, but what they could have done is put ALL FOUR Reface's together in one 5-octave keyboard for a grand. Include multitimbral layering and zone/split capability, and they sell 2-5 million of them in 3 years, and do it rather easily. Instead, with this particular customer the DX is waaay down my gearlust list, and the others are off.

Quote:

What were they thinking with the rinky-dinky keybeds?

possibly something like this:
SCENE: Reface Product Development Meeting
SETTING: Yamaha Boredroom
"Guys, I got it. How about we not market our product to anyone over 18%BMI ?"
...*medium pause*....then, from across the conference table:
"Hey!.....that just...might...worrrrk!!!"

that, or they figured because Korg sold a bazillion mKorgs to teh kidz- who-wear-backpacks, that these will, too.
de_raaf
find the dx charming, i think its cool to have a fm synth in this small package, may get one when the become available second hand, all depends a bit how fast the editing goes, since i'm more into impro playing, though keeping my dx11
Truckfumes
These are just flat out DSP boxes like the rest of their stuff right?
Like their "synths" and workstations...MOX6 or MXF6 etc..?
Those price rumors have to be a mistake...

Someone can just spend a little bit more and get exactly what Shaft9000 spoke of then. A 5 octave, full size keyboard that does CS, DX, organs, clavs, bongos, Rhodes, Wurlis, Underwater ghosts, Spanish Classical Guitars, Upright basses, harmonica, marimbas.... MY ASS IS BLEEDING
de_raaf
reface is not about flagshipsynths/organs, but more entry and fun and for that i don't think these things are bad at all, same sort of thing the did with the line where the cs01 was part of, seems the want a wider audience to warm up for synths and those organs etc in that sense i think they are pretty cool, small limited instruments, but fun to use, not for the seasond synth geek, but i think if you ever had small and limited synths you know the can be fun and you can be creative with it
Captainquietmouth
glissant wrote:
I find the DX one to be pretty enticing, despite the size. A desktop module version would have been nicer. The price on that one isn't too bad if it's as good as they make it seem... What else is there like it right now? I have a DX100 and it is pretty grainy and noisy in comparison. Looking forward to reading the manual at some point smile


I completely agree, a DX module would have been great.
Randy
http://ixox.fr/preenfm2/

FM module.

Randy
vasculator
Randy wrote:
http://ixox.fr/preenfm2/

FM module.

Randy


exactly. there is also another sammichFM run underway at midibox.org.

i would have rather yamaha just started making the dx200 again (with some UI changes).
berfmurret
enjoying these dr. mix demos. his cs demo sounds pretty good actually and the the synth's interface is spot on - love sliders.

his dx vid hasn't been posted here yet. pretty cool real time pad morphing action going on at the 8:20 mark.[/video]

suicidelane
A 6 operator Yamaha FM synth with knobs, digital FX, 4 additional rhythm channels and a 5 track step sequencer? -> DX200.... Guinness ftw!
thesnow
the cs is a ridiculous disappointment
glissant
Randy wrote:
http://ixox.fr/preenfm2/

FM module.

Randy


Yeah, I've thought about it lots of times, but it's never available whenever I think about it.
thesnow
price for dx is ridiculous cool synth though
dougt
suicidelane wrote:
A 6 operator Yamaha FM synth with knobs, digital FX, 4 additional rhythm channels and a 5 track step sequencer? -> DX200.... Guinness ftw!


Exactly! Watch the prices rise as people realize this... Wow what a joke these new things are...
Nofrenchtests


so much in this thread.
de_raaf
the feedback on dx you can chose between square or saw feedback
meatcliff
shaft9000 wrote:
The DX is slightly tempting, but what they could have done is put ALL FOUR Reface's together in one 5-octave keyboard for a grand. Include multitimbral layering and zone/split capability, and they sell 2-5 million of them in 3 years, and do it rather easily.


applause applause @ 2-5 million in 3 years.

consider this, the "bazillion" microkorgs sold is probably closer to about 300,000-500,000. It took six years just to break 200k, and they've long since peaked. Here's a quote from 2014:

Quote:
While Korg can't divulge sales specifics, Korg product training manager Richard Formidoni says that "we know that the 200,000th microKORG was produced in 2008." Since then, Formidoni says, "36,925 of them have been sold at retail in the USA alone."


Synthesizers are niche products already, and they don't all need to be flagship models with multiple engines. Something as simple as making them smaller and with a limited feature set actually makes them more desirable to a wide range of people (anyone ever try putting a DX-7 or an electric piano in a freakin' backpack to take on the subway to band practice?), and gets them interested in something more advanced down the road. That's probably how almost every niche market works, so it really shouldn't be surprising for people to see that with synthesizers.
cscairney
d'oh!
why the mini-keys? thats going to keep me from buying them.
otherwise the cs and dx are pretty cool.
thebot
DJFonzi wrote:
I kept thinking it's kind of funny that there's a leak about a Yamaha product with CS in the name, and everyone assumes it's a CS-80 reissue.


I know what you mean, but I find it even funnier that Yamaha can't see the market and take advantage of it.
digitalganesha
This is seriously the dumbest move I could have seen Yamaha make.
Every level of my interest in gear whether as a professional, hobbyist, nerd is completely uninterested in this crap.

Why the fuck would they not take advantage of the current nostalgia bullshit and up the ante by bringing back FM synthesis in a nice, modern, KNOBBY, layout and combine that with the wasted DSP/modeling R&D they did for these pieces of shit. Three years ago no one would have thought that Roland would be making neat, usable products again while yamaha shoved their heads up their ass. So weird..... seriously, i just don't get it
replicalex
The prices are a joke... right?

£347 in the UK.........

What are Yamaha thinking???

I just sold a TX802 for £180...
Ranxerox
I suspect they're not pricing them in relation to the secondary market in old DX's, but instead the mass market that still tries and buys stuff at GC instead of trawling eBay with half a clue of what they're after.

If I didn't already have a DX7IIFD I might be tempted by the FM model - for a new product it's still a lot of synth for the price. The organ one also sounds surprisingly good; keyboard is of course a joke, but it would work well in e.g. a mobile ambient setup along with a bunch of pedals and noise boxes...
Skimmo
Not bad Yamaha. Everyone calling this a toy is justified and anyone calling it an instrument is correct too.

If you're expecting a Prophet 6 type of analog re-issue for ~$500 you're fucking high.

From first impression the CS Analog Modelling sounds significantly better than the new Roland JD-Xi. YMMV. I'm sure most would agree, very little if any audible aliasing in the real time slider throws.

As for the "toy keyboard" form factor... just look at the Teenage Engineering OP-1. If it works use it and the crowd opinion doesn't matter. People will make music with it because it's simple to use.

I would buy the DX and/or CS keyboard for my pre-teen daughter but it would be just like when I bought her a Microbrute. I would get yelled at for "stealing it" and end up buying one for myself.

The price quote of £289/$449 is reasonable for what you get.
h4ndcrafted
Quote:
The price quote of £289/$449 is reasonable for what you get.


That's pre tax, sonic videos said £347.

I'm sure lots of ppl will buy them, but as said, anybody could snag a dx200 if they can find one, don't seem to come up that often in the UK.

The CS sounded bloody good for a VA, agree, but when Nick asked for bottom end it sounded like there wasn't any, he even had to ask him to lower the Rez, maybe thinking that was doing it.

When he did, still no bottom end. Hopefully it was just the patch.
berfmurret
I dont think the coked up salesman halfway knew how to program.
Bob Borries
Yamaha’s marketing promised us a CS-80 and gave us a VA with less control and no presets. It could be the greatest sounding synth in decades, but the teaser video killed before it was even out of the box. The CS-80 was the ultimate in expressiveness, with it’s polyphonic pressure sensitivity, I challenge Yamaha designers to actually play one, then they will realize the injustice that have done.

Manufactures confuse user-friendliness with dumbing down to obscurity. User Friendly means managing complexity with simple controls. The big mistake here is Yamaha underestimated the musical intelligence of it’s customers. We want more control, with knobs that make more meaningful changes to the sounds we make.

Electric pianos and Organ players want full sized keys and plenty of octave to play. We are all about creating sound with emotional impact and being able to sculpt sound to a precise degree is most important to us. Yamaha give us more freedom and we will take your instruments to new heights.

Maybe these keyboards were Yamaha’s answer to iPad synths, having physical keys, even smaller ones are better that trying to play a glass screen. When a device is dedicated to producing just music as opposed to a tablet designed to do many things, it can do a much better job. Yamaha would have had much better success in introducing theses portable synths as a iPad alternative or enhancement.
udbhav
These products aren't designed in a vacuum. They're competing with the granular control and convenience of laptops and plugins on the software side and the tactical and physical experience of the analog hardware resurgence as well as the all you can eat bonanza of Eurorack.

Impossible to compete on those terms, so instead they've chosen to prize immediacy, simplicity, and mobility. Don't really see why it's provoking this level of outrage, especially cause they sound pretty decent.
dopefiend
After seeing the multiple, inexpensive souNd-making thingies that ,the other two Japanese monsters have been peddling (plus others like Arturia and Novation), I'm not at all surprised about Yamaha jumping in it as well. To me, these thingies are like cheap fast food. Think Whitecastle burgers....Burger King chicken fries. Dunkin' Munchkins....Domino's cheesy bread sticks.
Rich in flavor (lots of artificial flavoring, coloring, etc....). Not much substance, tho....The occasional delightful treat deserves merit: the Korg MS-20m and the ARP Oddy (the latter, shitty little keys notwithstanding...).

Financially it makes perfect sense....pack as much as you can in a diminutive and inexpensive trinket, then sell a shitload of them... Makes much more sense than trying to reissue Vangelis' favorite mastodon!

I dunno....my craving for CS-80'ness has been satisfied by other means (Rhodes Chroma....Boomstar SE80), but damn, what a mind fuck!!!!! For a moment there there was a remote glimmer of hope that they would, indeed, be willing to commit such an imprudent, foolhardy manufacturing move... seriously, i just don't get it
Sigh!!!! cry
Oh, well....Maybe if they issue the keyboardless iterations of these, I might give 'em a go..... hmmm.....
MB II
It's annoying as they're trading off past glories by mass producing VSTs in boxes under names like DX and CS instead of doing something new, but this isn't aimed at us, it's aimed at EDM kids wanting to copy their heroes and for their parents to put under the tree.
ignatius
the editing on the DX doesn't look too bad. shame no knobs but the display looks pretty good and sorta makes sense.

still would've been nice to have a bit 'more'. sounds nice though.. but price? eek. i bought a DX-11 and it was $100 shipped to my door and it sounds great.

i guess the benefit of the reface DX is CC control, USB, small size (thsta could be a minus though for some) and more simplistic interface (yet to be proven though)

anyway.. seems these may have missed the mark for some (most) people's expectations.. expectations are a bitch though.
mckenic
I dunno - I wouldn't call between €400-500 depending on who you believe an inexpensive trinket.
Nofrenchtests
What ridiculous elitist snobery comes to bear every time something new is announced that isn't a clone/update/reissue of the things you love from 20-50 years ago.
hihi hihi
You guys crack me up.
CF3
You can buy an actual "DX" for less than the price of this. Dare I say two DX's.

BTW...THESE ARE CLONES. Nothing new here at all.
soundwave106
Nofrenchtests wrote:
What ridiculous elitist snobery comes to bear every time something new is announced that isn't a clone/update/reissue of the things you love from 20-50 years ago.
hihi hihi
You guys crack me up.


What cracks me up is that some keyboard markets seem to assume that no one who makes electronic music actually plays keys anymore. cool

udbhav wrote:
Impossible to compete on those terms,


The CP and YC are the real head scratchers honestly -- from what I know the Nord Electro series sells very well, why not compete with that instead of making a cheap mini key thing that I have no idea who they are targeting? (Christmas gifts for the kids, perhaps?) I would think most people who play combo organs and e-pianos want something that, you know, you can actually run a scale on without fumbling your fingers or can actually play a suspended chord without squinching your hands. Yes, workstations are kind of dying, but touring-oriented electric pianos and combo organs and digital pianos are still a very viable category, and Yamaha really doesn't have anything in this category that's not designed for someone's living room.

The DX Reface definitely is the least head scratching one. "Not my cup of tea" (seems pricey at first glance, I say) but that one seems like it could serve a purpose.
ignatius
Nofrenchtests wrote:
What ridiculous elitist snobery comes to bear every time something new is announced that isn't a clone/update/reissue of the things you love from 20-50 years ago.
hihi hihi
You guys crack me up.


I don't want reissues from yesteryear. Would prefer something new. But I think people made the mistake of having expectations and then of course these things don't meet the various random expectations.

engineers marketing designers etc all have their say in these things and obviously they thought what they did was "right" within the context of all the compromises
zedius
I think, at least with the dx, I would not call the expectations random. People of all walks have been requesting a knobby dx for decades. This isn't it.

Edit - I could add some additional 'features' I wouldn't consider random, but rather standard for instruments especially within this price range:

greater than 37 keys on the piano and organ
greater than 8 note polyphony.
greater than 4 operators

These aren't priced as bare-bones you-get-what-you-pay-for instruments, but they do come across as such in the specs at least.
Nofrenchtests
ignatius wrote:


I don't want reissues from yesteryear. Would prefer something new. But I think people made the mistake of having expectations and then of course these things don't meet the various random expectations.

engineers marketing designers etc all have their say in these things and obviously they thought what they did was "right" within the context of all the compromises

The people with the expectations are the same people who complain the loudest when things aren't exactly what they want, who ignore and mock everyone that isn't part of the old guard of synth fetishist. I can't imagine why synth companies are sidestepping them, in favour of more profitable markets. seriously, i just don't get it
BTS
h4ndcrafted wrote:
Quote:
The price quote of £289/$449 is reasonable for what you get.


That's pre tax, sonic videos said £347.

I'm sure lots of ppl will buy them, but as said, anybody could snag a dx200 if they can find one, don't seem to come up that often in the UK.

The CS sounded bloody good for a VA, agree, but when Nick asked for bottom end it sounded like there wasn't any, he even had to ask him to lower the Rez, maybe thinking that was doing it.

When he did, still no bottom end. Hopefully it was just the patch.


According to CDM, the US MSRP is $799.

I was mildly interested when I thought this was going to be in the $200 to $300 range, but at $800?

What the hell was Yamaha thinking? For $50 you could get DSI Tetra brand new. Hell, for $500 you could easily get a Bass Station II or a Minibrute.

They are smoking something wicked over there at Yamaha.
mckenic
I think any social-media 'backlash' Yamaha are experiencing is in proportion to their marketing push.

I thought we were discussing what was hoped, our opinion of a 'hyped' new product by a company that has in the past made equipment we enjoy - on you know - a gear forum question

(PSS, DB50xg, SW60, FS1r, AN1x (2), Tenori - lots of stuff I love Yammy for!)
tIB
Seems the DX has cc mapping. I could be tempted on the used market if so... Don't like the look of the push arrow things though I would never need to use them.
ignatius
Nofrenchtests wrote:
ignatius wrote:


I don't want reissues from yesteryear. Would prefer something new. But I think people made the mistake of having expectations and then of course these things don't meet the various random expectations.

engineers marketing designers etc all have their say in these things and obviously they thought what they did was "right" within the context of all the compromises

The people with the expectations are the same people who complain the loudest when things aren't exactly what they want, who ignore and mock everyone that isn't part of the old guard of synth fetishist. I can't imagine why synth companies are sidestepping them, in favour of more profitable markets. seriously, i just don't get it


my advice is never to have expectations when it comes to stuff like this.. and yeah.. they are the loudest but it's really not a surprise that people are facepalming over the yamaha stuff before it's even been seen in person. it's a huge opportunity with lot's of hype around it in the wake of roland and korg doing something in the way of "giving people what they want" and a little bit of a curve ball surprise w/some things..

the DX interface appears reasonably fast and intuitive just from watching the videos but i think people hoped/expected some kind of evolution on the concept with knobs or sliders or some kind of UI that is less menu driven (a tough thing w/FM) ...

and of course people want the 'pure' instrument that ignores "markets" entirely and just exists for the deep nerdcore set... obviously yamaha have other considerations.

hence my post "expectations are a bitch".

in all honesty who here doesn't have a way to make whatever sound they want to make w/hardware and software already in their studio?

this stuff is aimed squarely at people who are young, new-ish to music production, with nods at the older set who known the heritage of the monikers... there's some interesting tech surely buried in these instruments and i'm sure some people will get good sounds out of them etc etc etc..

curious what the "alien synth technology" is in the other thing that richard devine has worked on making presets for yamaha???

maybe that's the thing that is the light at the end of the tunnel here..

either way... i've got 2 lifetimes of shit to dive into already. help
h4ndcrafted
udbhav wrote:
These products aren't designed in a vacuum. They're competing with the granular control and convenience of laptops and plugins on the software side and the tactical and physical experience of the analog hardware resurgence as well as the all you can eat bonanza of Eurorack.

Impossible to compete on those terms, so instead they've chosen to prize immediacy, simplicity, and mobility. Don't really see why it's provoking this level of outrage, especially cause they sound pretty decent.


Price for a start ?

So they cannot not compete and a mini electric piano emulation is their answer hahah, that's funny. Actually I like the Toy Piano setting, wish it had the toy price tag it deserves though.

On those terms, just give up instead.

As others have said, lots of kids will find this under the tree, other people will know better. The DX may find some love I guess, with its quirky operation and through ebay.
StereoNode
Things that would have made the CS invaluable:

-All analog, but with digital recall like the A4

-One more row of perimeters, with the top right being the classic cs ringmod.

-at least 2 oscilators and a second envlope

-actual lfo shapes, including noise!

-a mini cv routing section on the right hand side down by the keys for extra modulation.

w/ all of that I would have easily paid at least $1500 for it, even could have lived with the minikeys... so close to being cool.
Truckfumes
Who knows? With some reasonably priced firmware update apps these little guys could be loaded with 1964 Stratocaster, steel drums, oboes, Mellotrons, wood blocks, etc...
The sky really is the limit with Yamaha's Legendary DSP "Synth Engines".
Plus you can download stuff to your phones. Get "synth engine" updates from your phone and start playing a Hammond B3 organ right on your CS or YC or DX....or sound effects like helicopters or thunder.
Suddenly $500 seems reasonable.
medbot
StereoNode wrote:
Things that would have made the CS invaluable:

-All analog, but with digital recall like the A4

-One more row of perimeters, with the top right being the classic cs ringmod.

-at least 2 oscilators and a second envlope

-actual lfo shapes, including noise!

-a mini cv routing section on the right hand side down by the keys for extra modulation.

w/ all of that I would have easily paid at least $1500 for it, even could have lived with the minikeys... so close to being cool.


If only there was just one single synth out there with these features, we'd never have to buy anything ever again.
computer controlled
I wonder if there will some under the hood editing done via software.
dopefiend
[quote="h4ndcrafted"



As others have said, lots of kids will find this under the tree, other people will know better. The DX may find some love I guess, with its quirky operation and through ebay.[/quote]

Ha! This whole mess frustrated me so much that I went and placed a bid on a DX-7 lls. Might get it for less than $300.....6-ops, 32 algorithms.....full-sized keys. applause
computer controlled
The DX really should have been called "FM".
suitandtieguy
udbhav wrote:
These products aren't designed in a vacuum.


These were.
Morley
Underwhelmed.

The DX is the one that sounds good to me BUT when they talk about ease of editing, I see no big advantages. Just changing the ALG and Feedback is dead easy on a DX7 which they seemed to make a big deal out of. In depth is not even that bad but at least you can get right in there.
I paid £250 for my DX7IIfd and they aren't hard to find and bare in mind you have double the polyphony, memories galore, dual voice mode and a full keyboard with wheels.
I still think it sounded interesting sonically. Might see if it does stuff older DX synths can't but I doubt it really does.
The CS sounds dreadful
I liked the Organ
The Piano was ok (but how many people want mini keys on a piano...or organ tbh.
Fail.
dopefiend
DX7 llFD.....The sheer pleasure of sitting in front of 5 octaves of pure full-sized keyboard delight....that's what one gets with an instrument that has twice as much polyphony, more complex synth architecture, wheels (yay!)....and for half the price of these Mattel playthings. Ebay is always brimming with these lovely, under-appreciated dinosaurs. Check'em out.

As for the the CS Reface.....was it too much to ask to give it the filter architecture of the CS80-60-50? Two more sliders....that's all the hardware required. seriously, i just don't get it

So, these are not the "alien" synths of which R Devine spoke? Damn....I thought we were done with the mind fucks! dizzy nuts
thevegasnerve
at $500, hard to convince myself that any one of these synths is worth that money. I would go for a mininova over these personally and certainly makes the recent Roland products look like a better option at that price range. I have apps with a simple controller that already sound really great for live use.

And seems expensive for beginners, who would have to choose one of the options as a starter synth. Just strange unless there is a bigger picture on how Yamaha plans to integrate these in the future.

Just my two cents...
sduck
Got to try these hands-on at NAMM this morning.

Yuck.

As I've said before, toys. No, really. They make virtually any other similarly sized synth type object seem like Bosendorfers.

The CS was DREADFUL. No relation at all to any of it's namesakes.

The DX sounded better, but the interface, or rather lack of one, yuck. Those 4 slider controllers - about an inch of travel for each one. You can't sweep the entire range of the available parameter with that inch, so you need to lift your finger and start again to move it further.

The other 2 - just no. They need real keys anyway.

I'm sure that the environment contributed to my negative experience - too many guitar flailers nearby, not enough gain in the monitors, etc. But I got to try quite a few other new keyboards, and these were by far the worst. Just my opinion though.
ignatius
sduck wrote:
Got to try these hands-on at NAMM this morning.

The DX sounded better, but the interface, or rather lack of one, yuck. Those 4 slider controllers - about an inch of travel for each one. You can't sweep the entire range of the available parameter with that inch, so you need to lift your finger and start again to move it further.


that sounds dreadful really.
Soundifferent
sduck wrote:
(...)The CS was DREADFUL. No relation at all to any of it's namesakes.


When I heard the sonic state demo, with the horribly stepping filter, I felt sorry for Yamaha. d'oh!
Funky40
Truckfumes wrote:
Who knows? With some reasonably priced firmware update apps these little guys could be loaded with 1964 Stratocaster, steel drums, oboes, Mellotrons, wood blocks, etc...
The sky really is the limit with Yamaha's Legendary DSP "Synth Engines".
Plus you can download stuff to your phones. Get "synth engine" updates from your phone and start playing a Hammond B3 organ right on your CS or YC or DX....or sound effects like helicopters or thunder.
Suddenly $500 seems reasonable.

"sequential switching" updates by phone, ...directly on stage lol call MY666XXXMUSIC and get a totally different synthengine loaded ....... w00t
z3r01
Checking out the DX demos (playing in the background), while I was replying e-mails. I kinda like the sounds from it (I am not extremely familiar with the original DX, so there's that).

Might pick one up used, if I can find 'em cheap, in time to come.
dopefiend
Anybody who is old enough to have lived through the 80's may recall the oh so ubiquitous sound of FM synths. I remember Toto's "Africa", with its percussive GS-1 sounds (alongside nice, juicy CS 80 pads). Then I remember "Ya Mo' Be There" from Michael McDonald and James Ingram. The original DX7 just SUCKED at doing strings or rich pads, but it excelled at vibes, marimbas, brass, and of course that blasted Rhodes-like patch (yuck!). The DX-7ll, on the other hand, has great pads and string sounds (cello, violin). At one point, in 1985, I remember being so fed up with the DX7 sounds that I would immediately feel an aversion for any song with FM sounds in it. Then I got a DX-21, with only 4 operators and 8 algorithms, but with the option of layering, and got quite good at programming it....it has lots of potential, but you need to rely dive in and get well familiarized with the whole concept of FM synthesis.

Hail, John Chowning... we're not worthy
dopefiend
......and of course, the Mighty TX81Z.....what a fun toy that was! A bitch to program, but man, did it sound good!
soundwave106
dopefiend wrote:
Hail, John Chowning... we're not worthy


I think you can pick up a SY77 or SY99 for around the price of these new Reface DX things. It's definitely a different concept than the Reface and definitely early 90s in its editing and presets, but I've heard some demos coax some absolutely wonderful things out of those synths.

Now, obviously the Reface is more of a Microkorg type competitor. I kind of think it's a little late in the game, it's a bit higher in price (Microkorg is $399, Mininova $349, etc.), it's worth noting Korg didn't have exactly stellar success with their other Micro stuff (Microsampler and Microstation got discontinued pretty quick...), and... well... first impression is it just doesn't seem performance oriented enough...
Ranxerox
dopefiend wrote:
......and of course, the Mighty TX81Z.....what a fun toy that was! A bitch to program, but man, did it sound good!


I had a DX11 (the true inheritor of the TX81Z crown in keyboard form) and it was awesome, If you have the benefit of the DX7II then you have the unison modes which open up a whole new playing field in terms of 80s timbres. Detune those mother**cking DX7 patches if you want the true straight-to-video soundtrack experience.
usw
Call me stupid, but ever since my encounter and love affair with a cz-101 in 2001 I've always had a sweet spot for small, quirky synths, and the dx and yc both seem rather appealling to me, especially the yc (may be because I've listened a lot to terry Riley lately (?)) seriously, i just don't get it
carlosnyb
Saw this in my inbox:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RefaceDX

flo
dopefiend wrote:
The original DX7 just SUCKED at doing strings or rich pads


If you cannot do strings or pads on a DX7 MK1 then it is certainly not the synth's fault hihi
tIB
I'll be checking out the manual for the DX and looking at picking one up used in a year or so if I can map my cirklon to it- I can live without knobs provided everything is avaliable to be tapped elsewhere... Playing the long game on this one!
h4ndcrafted
Surprised at the hate for CS va. Although I think this is a bizarre and somewhat cynical move by Yamaha, I thought the CS sounded pretty impressive.
Again it is so pointless bc anybody with half a clue is going to be immediately frustrated with the limited amount of parameters.

If these are test products rather than a cheap attempt to cash in, then they haven't gone the right way about it imho.

Cs sounds terrible? I kinda liked it. Although the review/promo is totally undermined as soon as he says 'amazingly powerful' lol



I think that thing people always bring up about , the more crap a product is, the more you have to sell it, applies to these and 'some' of the Roland products released lately.
newgreyarea
h4ndcrafted wrote:
Surprised at the hate for CS va. Although I think this is a bizarre and somewhat cynical move by Yamaha, I thought the CS sounded pretty impressive.
Again it is so pointless bc anybody with half a clue is going to be immediately frustrated with the limited amount of parameters.

If these are test products rather than a cheap attempt to cash in, then they haven't gone the right way about it imho.

Cs sounds terrible? I kinda liked it. Although the review/promo is totally undermined as soon as he says 'amazingly powerful' lol



I think that thing people always bring up about , the more crap a product is, the more you have to sell it, applies to these and 'some' of the Roland products released lately.


I think the CS hate is due to Yamaha alluding to something CS-80ish in their teasers and then dropping something very much not that. If they would have compared it an AN that would have been much more honest. I personally like the DX one. . . . but not at $500. I can get a TX81z for under $100. A little noisier, a bit of a pain to program but . . . I think anything over $300 for these is a stretch. I'll wait til they pop up used about 6 weeks after people get them. . .if people get them.

The CS just seems unnecessary. You can get much more synth for $500 now. Novation, Waldorf. . . I'm sure there are plenty more. You could grab any NI plugs with a proper keyed controller for under $500. I just don't see the point in that one.
GilgaFrank
Utterly horrible. After all the trumpeting and the online countdown I was expecting something Earth-shattering and revolutionary, even true analogue like the Roland JD-XA/XI or an updated CS80.

Instead we get toys aimed at students to plug into their cracked copies of Fruity Loops and yet another modelled synth, just what the world didn't need.
carlosnyb
Strange. Having four parameters immediately available on the DX sounds great, but if the range is so limited and you can only just flick a few times to get some tweaks, what's the point, really? Even with full midi control of same parameters, $500?
Gribs
I was expecting something at least in the same ballpark as one of Yamaha's mid-level workstations. What a major disappointment.
rohelineoun
How much do dx200s go for these days?

6ops and knobs! I'll take the frustration of dealing with the compatibility issues of old software editors.

But very frustrating It was so close to being awesome.
mckenic
I was considering one when they seemed readily available for $300... really wanted one but didnt jump... last few Ive seen have been almost double that :-(
IR
GilgaFrank wrote:
Utterly horrible. After all the trumpeting and the online countdown I was expecting something Earth-shattering and revolutionary, even true analogue like the Roland JD-XA/XI or an updated CS80.

Instead we get toys aimed at students to plug into their cracked copies of Fruity Loops and yet another modelled synth, just what the world didn't need.
Did you consider the Monotron to be that exciting?

Granted Reface was over-hyped, but it's their first different product in years. Kind of dumb they discontinued the Tenori-On.
flo
At least they played JUMP in the CS demo hihi Dead Banana

"You can change the octave for a bass sound" thumbs up
tIB
I had a DX200 and sold it due to frustrations/obsessions over not being able to get to everything off the panel. Great sound though... Also had the preenfm2 which also sounded pretty good if a little noisy. I dont like that style of interface though, and I was frustrated/obsessed with it not sounding as good as the DX200.
shaft9000
meatcliff wrote:
shaft9000 wrote:
The DX is slightly tempting, but what they could have done is put ALL FOUR Reface's together in one 5-octave keyboard for a grand. Include multitimbral layering and zone/split capability, and they sell 2-5 million of them in 3 years, and do it rather easily.


applause applause @ 2-5 million in 3 years.

consider this, the "bazillion" microkorgs sold is probably closer to about 300,000-500,000. It took six years just to break 200k, and they've long since peaked. Here's a quote from 2014:

Quote:
While Korg can't divulge sales specifics, Korg product training manager Richard Formidoni says that "we know that the 200,000th microKORG was produced in 2008." Since then, Formidoni says, "36,925 of them have been sold at retail in the USA alone."


Synthesizers are niche products already, and they don't all need to be flagship models with multiple engines. Something as simple as making them smaller and with a limited feature set actually makes them more desirable to a wide range of people (anyone ever try putting a DX-7 or an electric piano in a freakin' backpack to take on the subway to band practice?), and gets them interested in something more advanced down the road. That's probably how almost every niche market works, so it really shouldn't be surprising for people to see that with synthesizers.


All well and good, but the Reface aren't really synthesizers in the sense of 'retro synth' to appeal to everyone that "wants a vintage 70/80s synth but can't afford to spend over a few hundred", the way a microkorg is.
They even dumb-down any confusing aspect of the CS reface, specifically to sell it to non-synthesists. That's different from simply adding a 'genre' knob, while keeping the programming lingo still on point (there is a fully specced ms-2000 sound engine inside the mKorg, after all).

So in effect, that's putting Reface out of the niche of synths and into the general music/keyboard market.

And with Yamaha being a global music company - about as big as it gets - they should be(ha!) savvy to emerging markets, such as India or China where selling a million is certainly doable (if they are smart about it)...and that's only 2 countries.
A few million in sales is not necessarily a pipe dream, not at all. An exercise of the imagination, yes, but what are we here for then...
IR
shaft9000 wrote:
All well and good, but the Reface aren't really synthesizers in the sense of 'retro synth' to appeal to everyone that "wants a vintage 70/80s synth but can't afford to spend over a few hundred", the way a microkorg is.

They seem much more retro-synth than a Microkorg, from the interface point of view anyway.
maltemark
tIB wrote:
I had a DX200 and sold it due to frustrations/obsessions over not being able to get to everything off the panel. Great sound though... Also had the preenfm2 which also sounded pretty good if a little noisy. I dont like that style of interface though, and I was frustrated/obsessed with it not sounding as good as the DX200.


I wasn't happy at all with the dx200 either - comparing it to this new DX (with feedback per operator, pitch envelopes, and whatnot) is probably not very useful. Having to run a computer to access the hidden parameters...

The PreenFM2 really rules, but I can see the appeal of the Reface DX. The PreenFM2 is very playable, but as you say, the interface is in the "a very direct indirect" one. The Reface seems to me to be a really good instrument. Wouldn't spend the money though - too bad they decided to include all the usb/patch sharing/cloud/crap to jack the price up.
visible cow
My brief interest in the DX has waned. It looks fun-ish to program, sort of, but really doesn't bring anything else to the table.....and $500 seems very steep.

Back to trying to score a PreenFM2.

edit: just noticed the two previous posters mentioned the PreenFM2. I didn't know it was noisy.....as noisy as a DX7mkII?
de_raaf
for what the re i think they are cool, leaving out expectations
cs thing is more about the name aka control synthesizer so more about interface than its analog or digital, seems to be their interpretation

if you could scale inside the dx the touch from fine to more raw(full travel in one go) that would make it more interesting, hopefully that option is in there, seems an fun little synth when it ends up secondhand
DiscoDevil
I think the CS sounds damn good. For the limited amount of controls available, the sonic palette is pretty impressive.
tIB
visible cow wrote:

edit: just noticed the two previous posters mentioned the PreenFM2. I didn't know it was noisy.....as noisy as a DX7mkII?


It's OK if you balance the volume well, but yeah I found it noisy and somewhat muffled (or rather lacking in clarity) on poly sounds- you have to lower the volume on each sound and then raise it on the mixer which means more noise iirc. That and the interface was enough for me to get rid- I stuck with the monomachine and it's weird/basic FM implementation FWIW.
tomdarude
I think they´re overpriced and should at least have 10 or 12 "presets" please not 5 !!!

BUT, I can really see the CP and YC be some very nice keyboards for a live band, songwriting, and production context in the studio.
Super easy to use and the FX (which seems quite nice for digital emus) do play a vital role in coming up with a quick overdub for say a pop, rock, indie production. I could see them beeing actually quite usefull, when you need a quick keys/synth line recorded within a song.

They are definitely going after the "musicians" market, not the synth guys with time and knowledge for programming on their hands.
scottmoon
h4ndcrafted
scottmoon wrote:



hihi lol lol lol cry
The second time had me crying lol
bleeds_on_keys
tomdarude wrote:
I think they´re overpriced and should at least have 10 or 12 "presets" please not 5 !!!

BUT, I can really see the CP and YC be some very nice keyboards for a live band, songwriting, and production context in the studio.
Super easy to use and the FX (which seems quite nice for digital emus) do play a vital role in coming up with a quick overdub for say a pop, rock, indie production. I could see them beeing actually quite usefull, when you need a quick keys/synth line recorded within a song.

They are definitely going after the "musicians" market, not the synth guys with time and knowledge for programming on their hands.


So, the guitar center crowd instead of the muffwiggler crowd? lol
Nils
tIB wrote:
I had a DX200 and sold it due to frustrations/obsessions over not being able to get to everything off the panel. Great sound though... Also had the preenfm2 which also sounded pretty good if a little noisy. I dont like that style of interface though, and I was frustrated/obsessed with it not sounding as good as the DX200.


Agree on the DX200, nice sounding but frustrating.. I also found the onboard sequencer limited, and never managed to get MIDI clock sync to work.

What interests me about the RDX is the (apparently improved) interface and the ability to control all parameters via MIDI CC, which is a first for a Yamaha FM synth afaik.

Not going to buy one though. Just scored a IIFD with E! for $0 smile
mousegarden
These are really cool, especially the piano, which has some great effects.
OK, let's get to the bottom line, why the silly keyboard ? Just make it a Volca-like box, or a small rack unit. No one in their right mind is going to even think about using a mini keyboard, so just stop annoying us and get rid of it. First thing I would do is plug it into a decent keyboard, and then moan about how bulky and unnecessary the stupid mini keyboard is.
zedius
I'm half assuming the reason this hasn't been added to this thread yet is because everyone's seen it and become paralyzed by the 'meh'.

But in case anyone hasn't seen it and wants to hear the comparison:

TifaretMusic
zedius wrote:
I'm half assuming the reason this hasn't been added to this thread yet is because everyone's seen it and become paralyzed by the 'meh'.

But in case anyone hasn't seen it and wants to hear the comparison:



I actually think it sounds pretty close once the effects are turned off. That first bass sound actually sounds better on the new one to my ears. Not good enough to pay the price they're asking but once the prices get down a bit I'd take one.
mckenic
Thanks for that video zedius!

I liked the DX7 so much better I went looking for a TX7 and ended up with a TX81Z for under €100... I want to get into FM percussion much, much more and it will keep me going until I can find a TG33 or TX7 hihi

The M4L editor and patch 'degrader' I just saw on Matrix should keep me busy!
So perhaps not the intended result of the video - but for me - Mr. Green win!
peripatitis
Wow, the dx7 kills it in every possible way, every sound, even note!
30 years later, i would expect the difference to only be hype...
h4ndcrafted
It clearly kills it, but i don't think the market this is aimed at will care about that, they just want a portable, fits in the studio hardware fm synth.
soundwave106
peripatitis wrote:
Wow, the dx7 kills it in every possible way, every sound, even note!
30 years later, i would expect the difference to only be hype...


I personally would expect 6 op FM (DX7) to sound better than 4 op FM (Reface)...

A better comparison would've been a Reface vs. a DX100. Or maybe even Reface vs. a Soundblaster card. hihi
supersuper
1) Glad i own an AN1x and not that new crappy CS
2) Cant believe they did a dx7 reissue and did not create a highly knob laden or touch screen interface to unleash the engine after 30 years of people commenting that the original interface was to difficult.
3) Just wish to hell that Yamaha would have released all there fantastic IP as soft synths like Korg and Roland have done. No reason why there should not be a an AN,VL,FS,TG VST or AU instead of releasing these synths that are redundant given there is a healthy and affordable market for almost all second hand yamaha synth on eBay.
ignatius
mckenic wrote:


The M4L editor and patch 'degrader' I just saw on Matrix should keep me busy!
So perhaps not the intended result of the video - but for me - Mr. Green win!


do you have a link for that? couldn't find it. i know of the M4L device that's on ableton's site but it's an instrument.. though can be an editor with a midi bridge

http://audiooo.com/max-patches

curious about the "patch degrader"

edit.. never mind.. found it smile

http://audiocookbook.org/tx81z-patch-degrader-with-interpolation/

thumbs up
thispoison
The price point just seems way off on these.

Granted I bought them years ago, but I doubt I spent that much on my TX216, DX7 Supermax and TX81Z combined!

Oddly attracted to the YC though, if only it had full size keys.
mousegarden
But, you could get a real DX7 for less cash....
dopefiend
OK, so I got me the CS, w/o any high expectations, and dudes, I've gotta tell you, it's just stupid fun!!! Hate the mini keyboard and the pitch bender, though, but everything else is surprisingly good. I was even thinking that, in a pinch, it could turn into a keytar.... hmmm.....
Paranormal Patroler
mckenic wrote:
Thanks for that video zedius!

I liked the DX7 so much better I went looking for a TX7 and ended up with a TX81Z for under €100... I want to get into FM percussion much, much more and it will keep me going until I can find a TG33 or TX7 hihi

The M4L editor and patch 'degrader' I just saw on Matrix should keep me busy!
So perhaps not the intended result of the video - but for me - Mr. Green win!


Oh man! d'oh! Sold my TX7 a few months back. Would've loved to have sent it over to you. d'oh! d'oh!

Have you checked the Preen FM yet? That's the reason I sold my TX7. It's fun!
mckenic
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
mckenic wrote:
Thanks for that video zedius!

I liked the DX7 so much better I went looking for a TX7 and ended up with a TX81Z for under €100... I want to get into FM percussion much, much more and it will keep me going until I can find a TG33 or TX7 hihi

The M4L editor and patch 'degrader' I just saw on Matrix should keep me busy!
So perhaps not the intended result of the video - but for me - Mr. Green win!


Oh man! d'oh! Sold my TX7 a few months back. Would've loved to have sent it over to you. d'oh! d'oh!

Have you checked the Preen FM yet? That's the reason I sold my TX7. It's fun!


Doh! Lol!
Im SO behind where 'Now' is its unreal - looking for the TX7 & TG33. Im getting really into FM percussion lately. Have the TX and snagged a SQ-R+ locally yesterday woo!

Added myself to the SammichSID/FM lists for the next run (hopefully soon) so not thought about the Preen TBH!

Worth a punt?

Ive to email you about my A-196 - need hints on what I just bought hihi
jabs
mckenic wrote:
Added myself to the SammichSID/FM lists for the next run (hopefully soon)

Wait, what? Where?

Total thread hijack hihi
Barfunkel
Paranormal Patroler wrote:


Oh man! d'oh! Sold my TX7 a few months back. Would've loved to have sent it over to you. d'oh! d'oh!

Have you checked the Preen FM yet? That's the reason I sold my TX7. It's fun!


I've been wondering about the PreenFM... all the demos I heard have been some fairly experimental, distorted type of sounds. Haven't heard a single demo showcasing the smoother, more musical side of the PreenFM. Does it exist?

If it could sound like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDrZfmZuebs

I'd be all over it in an instant. I know it can load DX7 patches, but that doesn't automatically mean it sounds like classic FM too.
mckenic
jabs wrote:
mckenic wrote:
Added myself to the SammichSID/FM lists for the next run (hopefully soon)

Wait, what? Where?

Total thread hijack hihi


https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=143101&highlight=
DiscoDevil
Very tempted by the CP and CS, oddly enough. The CS would cover a lot of ground for a portable rig and the CP just sounds really damn good.
Neekau
dopefiend wrote:
OK, so I got me the CS, w/o any high expectations, and dudes, I've gotta tell you, it's just stupid fun!!! Hate the mini keyboard and the pitch bender, though, but everything else is surprisingly good. I was even thinking that, in a pinch, it could turn into a keytar.... hmmm.....


Easy : http://usa.yamaha.com/products/music-production/accessories/strap_atta chment_kit/kt-reface/ Rockin' Banana!
mousegarden
Barfunkel wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:


Oh man! d'oh! Sold my TX7 a few months back. Would've loved to have sent it over to you. d'oh! d'oh!

Have you checked the Preen FM yet? That's the reason I sold my TX7. It's fun!


I've been wondering about the PreenFM... all the demos I heard have been some fairly experimental, distorted type of sounds. Haven't heard a single demo showcasing the smoother, more musical side of the PreenFM. Does it exist?

If it could sound like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDrZfmZuebs

I'd be all over it in an instant. I know it can load DX7 patches, but that doesn't automatically mean it sounds like classic FM too.


The DX100 is a formidable keyboard, I worked with a guy who got some absolutely amazingly spacey sounds out of it, we both went on to get DX7's, and SY's, FM is so powerful, no wonder Brain Eno got into it, wise man.
Madrayken
At the horrible risk of getting back on topic (hihi), I received my Reface DX recently.

Good:
- Sounds like classic FM, low noise, bright and glassy or low and growly. Lovely.
- Really easy to create new patches, despite being FM. If you have any idea of what FM is or how it works, you'll be making cool noises in a moment.
- Onboard effects: they're pretty basic, but really give you a much wider palette.
- Great build quality. Solid, chunky, and convincing. As for the mini keys - I like mini keys, but these feel really different - much better than average.

Bad:
- Battery life sucks. If you use speakers, prepare to replace all your batteries every 2 hours. Wouldn't last even one gig.
- Aliasing up the wazoo on high-pitch voices. Not really a surprise considering the digital nature, but there's no attempt to do anything to manage or reduce it.
- 32 patch memory. Only 32. It's a little sonic beast and you'll blow your way through that in an afternoon. I believe there's an app for saving them, but I've not tried it yet.
- No 'global' envelope to allow you to alter anything from 'plink' to 'pad' using one set of parameters. No, you'll be dicking around with around 8 screens to do that. It's not hard, just a bit clunky.

Overall, I really like it and it's made me much more interested in other members of the line, rather than less so (which was my expectation).
D_Bowman
Madrayken wrote:
At the horrible risk of getting back on topic (hihi), I received my Reface DX recently.

Good:
- Sounds like classic FM, low noise, bright and glassy or low and growly. Lovely.
- Really easy to create new patches, despite being FM. If you have any idea of what FM is or how it works, you'll be making cool noises in a moment.
- Onboard effects: they're pretty basic, but really give you a much wider palette.
- Great build quality. Solid, chunky, and convincing. As for the mini keys - I like mini keys, but these feel really different - much better than average.

Bad:
- Battery life sucks. If you use speakers, prepare to replace all your batteries every 2 hours. Wouldn't last even one gig.
- Aliasing up the wazoo on high-pitch voices. Not really a surprise considering the digital nature, but there's no attempt to do anything to manage or reduce it.
- 32 patch memory. Only 32. It's a little sonic beast and you'll blow your way through that in an afternoon. I believe there's an app for saving them, but I've not tried it yet.
- No 'global' envelope to allow you to alter anything from 'plink' to 'pad' using one set of parameters. No, you'll be dicking around with around 8 screens to do that. It's not hard, just a bit clunky.

Overall, I really like it and it's made me much more interested in other members of the line, rather than less so (which was my expectation).


Thanks for the rundown. But I'm really posting to say your signature cracked me up!
neuroportal
"- Battery life sucks. If you use speakers, prepare to replace all your batteries every 2 hours. Wouldn't last even one gig."

If you are using the internal speakers, then that is one tiny gig!
Madrayken
Look, my cat appreciated it. Admittedly, there was a free bar.
mousegarden
If I remember rightly, you can't edit sounds once they are in the TX7, I can remember getting one and this being the case, I may have sold it because of this, I may be wrong, but It's worth checking this out before buying one.
IR
Is there any way to turn off the touch sensitivity? It would seem quite silly that you can't on the synths or the organ, only on the electric piano thing it makes sense that it's there.
BTS
thispoison wrote:
The price point just seems way off on these.


Agreed. SonicState just did a review of the DX Reface. It seems like it can be programmed fairly easily, but it still seems like it's going to need a firmware update (the MIDI clock seems to have issues in the video review).

At the end of the video, Nick mentions that he was seeing prices lower than the $500 USD that are currently out there. I'm thinking that the price will get lowered fairly quickly.
DiscoDevil
Does the looper sync to external midi clock on these?
BTS
DiscoDevil wrote:
Does the looper sync to external midi clock on these?


Yeah, the looper clock syncs to external MIDI. That was the issue with the SonicState review. They tried to use a BCR-2000 to control parameters via MIDI and the clock switched to external MIDI clock automatically.
DiscoDevil
Well, I NEED one now.
bmot
mousegarden wrote:
If I remember rightly, you can't edit sounds once they are in the TX7, I can remember getting one and this being the case, I may have sold it because of this, I may be wrong, but It's worth checking this out before buying one.


I had a TX7 until recently. Not sure about editing on the TX itself (what a massive chore that would be, i dodn't really go there!) but when i had it linked to my pc and a free DX editor I could edit sounds in realtime and send them to the TX for saving instantly. I only sold it because i wanted something with keys, and slightly easier to programme (got a Blofeld KB)

So back on topic, I drove to a large music store last week to try out the whole reface line, with the intention of buying perhaps the CP version for playing in my band, as a supplement to a CX3. I was surprised to find out the DX was the best of the bunch, a whole lot of fun to edit, and sounded surprisingly good. But i couldn't bring myself to spend 400 euros on it. Firstly it was even smaller than i'd imagined. Secondly only having 32 presets is a real shame, was an annoyance on the TX. Finally, I wasn't quite ready to spend that money, when i know an original Yamaha FM is actually cheaper. If it drops to 250 i'll probably get one, unless I get an original FM synth first.
neuroportal
For those that don't appreciate how small these are is, here is mine with some common gear to give you some clue:


[/img]
IR
I just tried all of them in a music shop. Very nice keyboard on all. Feels good, nothing like the Microbrute, for example.

the organ one: interesting. Only has reverb, no touch sensitivity. The sounds have a lot of aliasing, would probably sound good through an analogue filter, unfortunately I didn't have the opportunity. I kind of wanted to like this, it isn't very versatile I guess, and was a bit let down by the sound.

electric piano: not bad, has touch sensitivity. Effects quite good, has a nice dub echo. Not a huge amount of sounds, but makes up for it with the effects.

the synth: wow, I was blown away by this. Sounds awesome, no aliasing. Looper works well. Killer dub echo. I wasn't even interested in this before, now I want one, maybe I'll get one one day. No touch sensitivity. Poly and mono modes.

the DX: not bad sounding, but interface is clunky. It is a simple interface, but it just isn't fun going up and down with the arrow keys. In fact even has the dub echo, but less useful live because you have to wait a bit while the cursor goes up or down. Has touch sensitivity.
neuroportal
"because you have to wait a bit while the cursor goes up or down"

In its defence, you can just slide up on the touch part and that works also, so you don't have to press and hold.
Funky40
i had to get me a DX, as my Keyboard is in repair............me: now adicted to keys hihi ,
so the DX looked as the best option to have something to play for now

IR wrote:

the DX: not bad sounding, but interface is clunky. It is a simple interface, but it just isn't fun going up and down with the arrow keys. In fact even has the dub echo, but less useful live because you have to wait a bit while the cursor goes up or down. Has touch sensitivity.

in my opinion, it could have been donne a little bit better,
but it is much better than one would think asoon you are used to it a bit.
.....second day on my DX, the fourth hour probably, and i´m allready jamming parameters on the fly.
I´d say a short check on that touchfield is not enough to give you a good impression on how it really feels in use after some burn in......

the 32 presets look little, indeed. but then, would i use more ? honestly: NO !


i see the drawback in the control of the envelopes.
there should be a master envelope respectivly a master offset control of the envelopes,
ideally as kind of a programmable morph ( programmable by factory would be sufficient ).
not saying the envelopes are bad in itself. Its a Yamaha, i´m a fanboy in this regard.
But the control on the fly would make for much wider soundrange in regards to he playability within one sound

The unit itself sounds astonishingly good to me. there are 3-4 sounds i much like
and would be probably worth the price alone (to me....and keeping spaceishues out )
( i have had EX5 / MotifES / FS1R / ......now Kronos...... in repair/ thats what i can compare it too soundwise )

the Keys are much better playable than i ever would have thought.
but then, its a Yamaha. Its allways one of their strenght points imho.


the unit is great to have something small for jamms outside, or as a compagnion to an octatrack for example.
have it hooked up to my octa right now.
minimal setup, just these two boxes and a space.....GREAT
IR
neuroportal wrote:
"because you have to wait a bit while the cursor goes up or down"

In its defence, you can just slide up on the touch part and that works also, so you don't have to press and hold.

I had to go back to the shop to try that. It works, but it takes three swipes to get the whole range of the slider, and it's not very precise.

Still it's pretty cool and the interface is pretty straight-forward for an FM synth I suppose, and the sound is quite good.
neuroportal
"it's not very precise"

I'm starting to sound like an apologist now....smile

It can take a couple of swipes - but it is velocity dependent. If you go slow, you can be very precise. If you go fast, it will move faster.

But, ultimately, an encoder based knob would work so much better.
Funky40
has anybody here taken their DX apart ?
or read about it ? ( with pics )

my thought:
i don´t need those crappy speakers,
and the plastic sideparts either.
i wondering if its a easy or complicated job to cut that unused junk away and making the DX 19" compatible ?
dopefiend
Funky40 wrote:
has anybody here taken their DX apart ?
or read about it ? ( with pics )

my thought:
i don´t need those crappy speakers,
and the plastic sideparts either.
i wondering if its a easy or complicated job to cut that unused junk away and making the DX 19" compatible ?


No speakers.....no sides....no keys. Just like what can be done to the MiniBrute....
Funky40
you´ve donne it ?
lol


picture ? ahh wait......i can imagine hihi


would it be possible to make it modular ?
making the keybead-part attachable to the "rackunit" part ?
do you know ? i mean, is it one connector or would it be a "impossible mess" ?
dopefiend
Dunno......I'll wait for the warranty to expire before I start fucking with it this way.....
Christopher Winkels
I finally had a chance to play with all four of them yesterday. I came away more than a little impressed: solid build, good sounds, and eminently "playable" in the sense that what you see is what you get (with the possible exception of the DX; there is some menu diving there). Yamaha clearly spend some money on the tooling for these units. The action is better than most minikey units out there too.

The little pitch lever is actually a good idea. It feels natural and smooth and subtle bends are easy to accomplish.

They sell for $500 here in Canada, which is about $380 USD. Not a terrible price, and I'm sure they'll come down further in time.

I do think Yamaha missed a trick by not putting strap pegs on them. They practically beg to be thrown over the shoulder and played like some '80s throwback (in an ironic way, obviously. I'm not a monster). Having said that there are enough recesses in the underside of the chassis that someone with a bit of inspiration could rig up a credible keytar holster for it. Ross L. and Dave S.: I'm looking at you.
neuroportal
"The little pitch lever is actually a good idea."

On that note, firmware 1.20 is now out an you can set the pitch bend range from 2 semitones to an octave.

Plus the looper can now be quantized.
Morley
Christopher Winkels wrote:
I finally had a chance to play with all four of them yesterday. I came away more than a little impressed: solid build, good sounds, and eminently "playable" in the sense that what you see is what you get (with the possible exception of the DX; there is some menu diving there). Yamaha clearly spend some money on the tooling for these units. The action is better than most minikey units out there too.

The little pitch lever is actually a good idea. It feels natural and smooth and subtle bends are easy to accomplish.

They sell for $500 here in Canada, which is about $380 USD. Not a terrible price, and I'm sure they'll come down further in time.

I do think Yamaha missed a trick by not putting strap pegs on them. They practically beg to be thrown over the shoulder and played like some '80s throwback (in an ironic way, obviously. I'm not a monster). Having said that there are enough recesses in the underside of the chassis that someone with a bit of inspiration could rig up a credible keytar holster for it. Ross L. and Dave S.: I'm looking at you.


Was there a best unit in your opinion?
Christopher Winkels
Probably the CS if one is looking for fun factor and sheer immediacy. I think people saw the "CS" thing and got hung up on how it's nothing like the CS-80. But it occupies a space not unlike the old CS-01, only with a bigger feature set.
Tombola
Played the DX at Wunjo Music on Denmark St (which now has a really good selection of modern synths and a few nice oldies)

Really liked it - very nice mini keybed, good velocity response, sounded great - speakers and batteries susprisingly good (I always found I used the OP1 speaker more than so thought, and that was awful). Generally much heavier and better finished that I expected, way better that cheap (sub £100) mini midi controllers.

£280 before any negotiations, I might get one. Wish they'd put on a few knobs/sliders, though.
mousegarden




Yamaha CS............

Yamaha CS80............maybe it's me, but there seems to be no resemblance ?
Madrayken
Picky.
Tombola
Ranxerox
Used to have aa CS01, my first analog many moons ago. Huge sounding and rivals the SH101 for bass, except the resonance control is a switch for some reason and I don't think the filter could self oscillate.
mick
mousegarden wrote:
Yamaha CS............

Yamaha CS80............maybe it's me, but there seems to be no resemblance ?

Yamaha CS = 399 EUR
Yamaha CS80 = 15.000 EUR

So what is the point you are trying to make?
Heavy Metal Kid
I think the point is that the CS80 was mentioned explicitly in the official pre-release hype videos from Yamaha.
IR
The CS01 costs almost as much as the Reface. Used to be cheap but the prices rose. No MIDI or CV or anything.
mousegarden
mick wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
Yamaha CS............

Yamaha CS80............maybe it's me, but there seems to be no resemblance ?

Yamaha CS = 399 EUR
Yamaha CS80 = 15.000 EUR

So what is the point you are trying to make?


Well, I couldn't buy a Reface CS, it would make me so depressed knowing that I've been conned into thinking that buying a Reface is somehow like owning the real thing, after all, it is marketed as having some sort of connection, but in what way I'll never know (it has sliders?) Like the Reface DX, that's nothing like a DX7, it's only four operator for a start, and the whole point of the piano versions well, I thought piano's were supposed to have proper keyboards ? No, these are a con, a full blown unashamed attempt by Yamaha to just jump on this weird bandwagon that's happening with "mini everything" at the moment. I just can't imagine walking out of a shop holding a Reface CS, "hey guys! I got a CS80 ! and it sounds just like the real thing, honestly! Dead Banana
At least Dave Smith has had a good go at his "recreations" they do actually go some way to making an effort to resemble the originals, plus more. Yamaha could easily do the same with the CS80, a smaller more cut down version maybe, but at least with all the essential ingredients in the bowl.
neuroportal
However, if someone walked out of a shop with a Reface CS, and enjoyed using it, and playing around with it, even recording with it...for £289 quid? Is that really a con?

Bearing in mind it is 3% of the cost of a CS80? And it is certainly more than 3% of the features and sound.
mousegarden
neuroportal wrote:
However, if someone walked out of a shop with a Reface CS, and enjoyed using it, and playing around with it, even recording with it...for £289 quid? Is that really a con?

Bearing in mind it is 3% of the cost of a CS80? And it is certainly more than 3% of the features and sound.


True, but, even at near on £300 that's a lot of money for some people, and it's still over priced for what it is in my opinion, I have the Arturia CS, and it's great, cheaper than the Reface, does more, and even looks like the original ! hihi
Tombola
mousegarden wrote:
mick wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
Yamaha CS............

Yamaha CS80............maybe it's me, but there seems to be no resemblance ?

Yamaha CS = 399 EUR
Yamaha CS80 = 15.000 EUR

So what is the point you are trying to make?


Well, I couldn't buy a Reface CS, it would make me so depressed knowing that I've been conned into thinking that buying a Reface is somehow like owning the real thing, after all, it is marketed as having some sort of connection, but in what way I'll never know (it has sliders?) Like the Reface DX, that's nothing like a DX7, it's only four operator for a start, and the whole point of the piano versions well, I thought piano's were supposed to have proper keyboards ? No, these are a con, a full blown unashamed attempt by Yamaha to just jump on this weird bandwagon that's happening with "mini everything" at the moment. I just can't imagine walking out of a shop holding a Reface CS, "hey guys! I got a CS80 ! and it sounds just like the real thing, honestly! Dead Banana
At least Dave Smith has had a good go at his "recreations" they do actually go some way to making an effort to resemble the originals, plus more. Yamaha could easily do the same with the CS80, a smaller more cut down version maybe, but at least with all the essential ingredients in the bowl.


I don't understand why you think it has anything to do with the CS-80 - beyond some initial marketing where they did 'yamaha synth history'

It's a mini synth with sliders and a built-in speaker, called "CS".

Almost exactly like the Yamaha CS-01: A mini synth with sliders and a built-in speaker called "CS"
mousegarden
Tombola wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
mick wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
Yamaha CS............

Yamaha CS80............maybe it's me, but there seems to be no resemblance ?

Yamaha CS = 399 EUR
Yamaha CS80 = 15.000 EUR

So what is the point you are trying to make?


Well, I couldn't buy a Reface CS, it would make me so depressed knowing that I've been conned into thinking that buying a Reface is somehow like owning the real thing, after all, it is marketed as having some sort of connection, but in what way I'll never know (it has sliders?) Like the Reface DX, that's nothing like a DX7, it's only four operator for a start, and the whole point of the piano versions well, I thought piano's were supposed to have proper keyboards ? No, these are a con, a full blown unashamed attempt by Yamaha to just jump on this weird bandwagon that's happening with "mini everything" at the moment. I just can't imagine walking out of a shop holding a Reface CS, "hey guys! I got a CS80 ! and it sounds just like the real thing, honestly! Dead Banana
At least Dave Smith has had a good go at his "recreations" they do actually go some way to making an effort to resemble the originals, plus more. Yamaha could easily do the same with the CS80, a smaller more cut down version maybe, but at least with all the essential ingredients in the bowl.


I don't understand why you think it has anything to do with the CS-80 - beyond some initial marketing where they did 'yamaha synth history'

It's a mini synth with sliders and a built-in speaker, called "CS".

Almost exactly like the Yamaha CS-01: A mini synth with sliders and a built-in speaker called "CS"


You are spot on, I don't know why I was comparing it to the CS80 either, my mistake.
Tombola
mousegarden wrote:

You are spot on, I don't know why I was comparing it to the CS80 either, my mistake.


The organ one - YC - has rather nicely done mini versions of the CS-80 sliders and rocker switches.

So they have everything in place to make a ludicrous mini-keys version of the CS80 that would be the most spectacular bit of forum trolling in synth history.
Heavy Metal Kid
mousegarden wrote:
You are spot on, I don't know why I was comparing it to the CS80 either, my mistake.


Because @27 seconds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdj2EqO6WiE
mousegarden
Heavy Metal Kid wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
You are spot on, I don't know why I was comparing it to the CS80 either, my mistake.


Because @27 seconds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdj2EqO6WiE


"The keys feel just like a piano" hmmm.....

"It made me cry" waah

Yeah, it certainly did.................... hihi
soundwave106
Tombola wrote:
I don't understand why you think it has anything to do with the CS-80 - beyond some initial marketing where they did 'yamaha synth history'


Er, the marketing is pretty well doing a good job of equating the two, with blurbs like "inspired by the iconic CS-80 polyphonic analog synthesizer blah blah etc."

Now, it's obviously just a cheap little VA that can run on batteries, which probably has a "CS-80" mode or something. I don't personally get the appeal of, but some seem to, so what do I know?

From what I understand, a lot of the appeal of the actual CS-80 is the control (full keys, velocity sensitivity which was rare for a poly at the time, poly after touch which is rare even today, gigantic ribbon controller which also is a bit rare, etc.) So IMHO, calling anything small and mini key "inspired by the CS-80" is kind of bullshit, regardless of the sound generation methodology. But anyways....

At least, unlike Roland, they actually are matching the polyphony of the instruments they are "inspired" by... razz
DiscoDevil
Sub $500 polyphonics that sound great are fairly rare. I think marketing the CS as something similar to the CS-80 is a stretch but they pretty much do what they say they do and they sound good, IMO. If it wasn't for the awkward form factor, I'd own at least one of them already.
mousegarden
DiscoDevil wrote:
Sub $500 polyphonics that sound great are fairly rare. I think marketing the CS as something similar to the CS-80 is a stretch but they pretty much do what they say they do and they sound good, IMO. If it wasn't for the awkward form factor, I'd own at least one of them already.


Exactly, it is what it is, a nifty little VA that's capable of some bread and butter sounds with a bit of wobbliness thrown in. But deffo not worth the money, and the CS80 reference was unecasary really.
dopefiend
I think the reference to the Mighty '80 stemmed mostly (at least in me!) from wishful thinking… I do agree, though, that this is a really inexpensive poly with a really thick sound. Filter sounds pretty good, and the effects are also great. When I play it I can see it kicking the ass of, say, a Juno 60, Jupiter 4, Korg Poly 6. It's quite easy to get the swelling brassy pads of Bladerunner on it. Oh, and think of having 2 of them, in parallel….like the CS80. Only thing missing would be polyphonic aftertouch response.. love
dopefiend
I think the reference to the Mighty '80 stemmed mostly (at least in me!) from wishful thinking… I do agree, though, that this is a really inexpensive poly with a really thick sound. Filter sounds pretty good, and the effects are also great. When I play it I can see it kicking the ass of, say, a Juno 60, Jupiter 4, Korg Poly 6. It's quite easy to get the swelling brassy pads of Bladerunner on it. Oh, and think of having 2 of them, in parallel….like the CS80. Only thing missing would be polyphonic aftertouch response.. love
IR
Have you tried one, mousey? I wasn't interested in them either, until I tried one in a shop and really started liking it. Haven't bought one yet, but would like one sometime.

By the way, does anyone know how the MIDI in channel is set from the factory? It says somewhere that you can only change it by MIDI messages (does it remember the setting??). Really I don't mind if it's set to 1, but would be somewhat upset if it's set to omni.

The MIDI out is normally 1 for all the models, but you can change it on the DX to whatever from the panel, and change it to 1 or off on the CS without sending MIDI messages from something else.
mousegarden
IR wrote:
Have you tried one, mousey? I wasn't interested in them either, until I tried one in a shop and really started liking it. Haven't bought one yet, but would like one sometime.

By the way, does anyone know how the MIDI in channel is set from the factory? It says somewhere that you can only change it by MIDI messages (does it remember the setting??). Really I don't mind if it's set to 1, but would be somewhat upset if it's set to omni.

The MIDI out is normally 1 for all the models, but you can change it on the DX to whatever from the panel, and change it to 1 or off on the CS without sending MIDI messages from something else.


No I haven't tried one, I'd like to, the piano one sounds good, I'd just use it as a module.
IR, have you looked at the Sonic State review on YouTube ? It covers the Midi side. thumbs up

Tombola
Here's the MIDI spec:
http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=uk.yamaha. com&asset_id=65276
mousegarden
Actually, one of these would be perfect for me as a compliment to my I pad when out and about, but the deal breaker are those tiny keys, it's just not on.
I'm going to get a Korg Triton Taktile 49 instead, it has sounds, and normal sized keys. A different machine, but more playable, and the sounds are fine.
IR
mousegarden wrote:
No I haven't tried one, I'd like to, the piano one sounds good, I'd just use it as a module.
IR, have you looked at the Sonic State review on YouTube ? It covers the Midi side. thumbs up
Thanks, I've already seen it, watched it again, but no new info. I was already aware of the CCs, from watching the video the first time. Interesting about the editor, I hope they make it super simple and compatible with old versions of Windows.

The keybed is super nice though, very high quality. Don't compare it with the Micro Brute or Mini Nova, those are rubbish. Although if you are really not going to use the keys I certainly would not recommend the CS. The electric piano one would be much better, big knobs and clear controls.

Tombola wrote:
Here's the MIDI spec:
http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=uk.yamaha. com&asset_id=65276
Thanks, but already knew about it and not looking for hexidecimal addresses. All my questions were based on info from the manual (incomplete I guess).
mousegarden
I think we ought to ask ourselves why we want one of these toys, this thread has been going on for ages, about a toy keyboard, 30 years ago this would have been seen as a novelty gimmick, and nothing more.
neuroportal
30 years ago everyone would have raved about them. They would be classics by now. We would be complaining about the clunky sized large keyboards being produced.
ym2612
Are we calling these toys strictly based on the size of the keys? Is the Microkorg, a keyboard used regularly by many live acts, a toy? Or the Korg analog reissues?

These are quite capable, inspiring, great-sounding instruments. Price is a little high for my taste, but I could see myself getting the DX.
GilgaFrank
Maybe I'm just biased againt DX-anything because I remember the 1980s, Stock Aitken and Waterman and dreadful Jennifer Rush ballads with clangy DX Rhodes sounds.
craigie77
i was the same.. but the deeper i got into FM synthesis the more undertsanding and hence the greater appreciation i have for the DX7

the reface goes a little bit further ads the DX oonly had sine waves i think
and to get different waveforms you would have to use up othe opperators t get there


i think it sounds really sweet ,,, and out the bunch.. probably the best buy
Knights Who Say Neve
This is purely a guess on my part, but I'm guessing that all these engines will end up in whatever new workstation Yamaha comes out with.
dopefiend
mousegarden wrote:
I think we ought to ask ourselves why we want one of these toys, this thread has been going on for ages, about a toy keyboard, 30 years ago this would have been seen as a novelty gimmick, and nothing more.


I respectfully submit to you that 30 yrs ago there was another "toy" out there that went on to become a highly-coveted classic…I'm referring to the Casio CZ-101. Mini-keys. No touch sensitivity. No effects. Flimsy build. And the sticker price? I bought mine in 1984: $499. I'm sure that much cash back then would buy you at least two Refaces today.
I think these are great synth engines trapped in cheesy little packages. And it's all about the relentless competition that the Mighty Japanese Three have about saturating the market with little, inexpensive noise-making gadgets aimed at the iPad-toting, hacky sack-kicking millenials that are increasingly becoming top consumers….. a$ alway$, the Bottom Line Exxxcellent
neuroportal
GilgaFrank wrote:
Maybe I'm just biased againt DX-anything because I remember the 1980s, Stock Aitken and Waterman and dreadful Jennifer Rush ballads with clangy DX Rhodes sounds.


Dx 7 was famous for people not getting the programming and overusing stock sounds. FM programming on the reface is awesome. The sounds that I can get out of this thing are amazing.

Just using sample and hold lfo and overdrive effect on stock sounds is awesome and once you start delving..the menus are not hard. Personally, I am keeping this 'toy' and i'll leave the professional kit to those that know better than I do or require a full keyboard or rack.
Rigo
craigie77 wrote:
the reface goes a little bit further ads the DX oonly had sine waves i think
and to get different waveforms you would have to use up othe opperators t get there

SY99 could use samples (AWM) as modulators, and each FM operator has 16 different waveforms to choose from. So maybe here we have an easier to use form of the AFM from the SY99 ?
mousegarden
Sure, things that have been regarded as toys have gone on to be used by certain people to produce great music, fine. But for me personally, I'm suffering from octave deprivation and size issues, this all comes about from being a pianist. I've always thought five octaves of full size keys to be a major compromise ! let alone three octaves of mini keys, that's not even on my radar. Of course, if you're into producing music that's built up on the computer, bit by bit, then playing little snippets on a tiny keyboard isn't going to be an issue, also dance music doesn't require a lot of trad musical input, mainly relying on loops and beats etc, so maybe all you'd need to do is ad a little bit of of a melody here and there, once again my you could get away with almost anything. I think what I really need to sort things out, is a Bosendofer Imperial grand, with a Moog Piano Bar, then I could take full advantage of all these lovely little Refaces.

pbear :(
neuroportal
Or, you have a decent midi controller.
mousegarden
neuroportal wrote:
Or, you have a decent midi controller.


I've got controller keyboards galore, none of them are what you might call ideal, they do the job, but that's all. I'm not going to invest in an 8 octave weighted controller, simply because I can't stand "any" sampled piano's or any piano's that are electronic, they all sound rubbish compared to a real piano, for me it's the one thing I won't compromise on. On the other hand, Rhodes sounds are a different matter, there are some quite good samples, and simulations, but you don't really need a full size weighted keyboard for those, most controllers seem OK for that job. I can understand that electronic pianos or samples are the only choice if playing live, but for anything else, it has to be an acoustic, besides you can't actually "prepare" an electronic piano !
craigie77
tbh.... as great as they sound .. i was really disapointed in the design... could have been so much more

was hoping they were like the vapourware mock ups that popped up a year or two ago....
mousegarden
Saw one yesterday in Rock Stop, the worlds most grumpy music shop, wasn't impressed, looked really cheap and flimsy. Couldn't try it out, must try and do that.
craigie77
apparently there built like tanks.... i take it . it was behind a cabinet or something??
trickness
I've got the CP, and the sound of the thing really is incredible, especially in stereo. The effects are great as is the build quality. The onboard speakers are not good at all unless you're in a very quiet room. I can't play keys worth a shit and the fact that the keys on Refaces are so small doesn't help. I got mine for 450, if it had been 350 I think a lot less people would be ragging on these things. It certainly doesn't sound like a toy although the form factor shouts "toy".
Mitaric
I've gotten to spend some time with each of these at a local shop. I totally agree with trickness, the CP sounds wonderful. At this point it definitely sounds better to my ears than any VST re-creation, but I'm sure people may disagree. I could really see myself picking up one of those at some point, but the price would have to be lower.
mousegarden
Mitaric wrote:
I've gotten to spend some time with each of these at a local shop. I totally agree with trickness, the CP sounds wonderful. At this point it definitely sounds better to my ears than any VST re-creation, but I'm sure people may disagree. I could really see myself picking up one of those at some point, but the price would have to be lower.


I think as time goes on, as with all things, the price will come down. I must admit, out of all of them, the CP sounds best, and would be the most useful to me.
numan7
hmmm..... hmm....


cheers
mousegarden
numan7 wrote:
hmmm..... hmm....


cheers



I agree hmmm..... I think this thread, me included, is full of folks desperately trying to like these things, but failing miserably.
dopefiend
mousegarden wrote:
numan7 wrote:
hmmm..... hmm....


cheers



I agree hmmm..... I think this thread, me included, is full of folks desperately trying to like these things, but failing miserably.


OK, while you guys scratch your heads desperately, I will first recommend Selsun Blue or Head n'Shoulders shampoo, then move on to have fun with my CS.....it's a stupid-guilty pleasure! applause
mousegarden
dopefiend wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
numan7 wrote:
hmmm..... hmm....


cheers



I agree hmmm..... I think this thread, me included, is full of folks desperately trying to like these things, but failing miserably.


OK, while you guys scratch your heads desperately, I will first recommend Selsun Blue or Head n'Shoulders shampoo, then move on to have fun with my CS.....it's a stupid-guilty pleasure! applause


Fun !? FUN !? We can't be having any of that !

hihi
neuroportal
Someone mentioned strap pegs a la dx100 http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/music-production/accessories/strap_at tachment_kit/kt-reface/?mode=model
peachfuzzmcgee
I played a CP at knobcon and I really enjoyed it even if the keys were practically useless and I probably would've like it better for 100 bucks less and made into a desktop thing. I think it actually sounded really great even if it was a "toy"
Tombola
mousegarden wrote:
Saw one yesterday in Rock Stop, the worlds most grumpy music shop, wasn't impressed, looked really cheap and flimsy. Couldn't try it out, must try and do that.


Should have gone round the corner to Wunjo Keys - much less grumpy and all versions on display
mousegarden
Tombola wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
Saw one yesterday in Rock Stop, the worlds most grumpy music shop, wasn't impressed, looked really cheap and flimsy. Couldn't try it out, must try and do that.


Should have gone round the corner to Wunjo Keys - much less grumpy and all versions on display


I did ! And couldn't see them ?
mousegarden


The lack of sensitivity and expression is obvious on the CP compared with the Rhodes.
DiscoDevil
Still sounds damn good, IMO.
mousegarden
DiscoDevil wrote:
Still sounds damn good, IMO.


You can hear the fixed tine response on the CP, on the Rhodes, it very velocity dependant.
mousegarden
There's a full review of these things over on "Nerds Monthly" AKA, SOS magazine.
TifaretMusic
Tried the DX out the other day and it sounds AMAZING, really full and lush. If they would knock the price down to 300 I'd be in. I thought the CS sounded awful though. The others I couldn't get to turn on because it wouldn't be Guitar Center without frustration hihi
mousegarden
TifaretMusic wrote:
Tried the DX out the other day and it sounds AMAZING, really full and lush. If they would knock the price down to 300 I'd be in. I thought the CS sounded awful though. The others I couldn't get to turn on because it wouldn't be Guitar Center without frustration hihi


Please, if space is a problem, or gigging etc, then fine, but if not, why not just buy a DX7 ?

hmmm.....
TifaretMusic
mousegarden wrote:
TifaretMusic wrote:
Tried the DX out the other day and it sounds AMAZING, really full and lush. If they would knock the price down to 300 I'd be in. I thought the CS sounded awful though. The others I couldn't get to turn on because it wouldn't be Guitar Center without frustration hihi


Please, if space is a problem, or gigging etc, then fine, but if not, why not just buy a DX7 ?

hmmm.....


Because vintage gear is more trouble than it's worth for me. And I thought this had an interesting sound of it's own, more hi-fi than I remember the DX being (probably due to modern converters). But yeah I also don't have a ton of room and play out.
mousegarden
TifaretMusic wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
TifaretMusic wrote:
Tried the DX out the other day and it sounds AMAZING, really full and lush. If they would knock the price down to 300 I'd be in. I thought the CS sounded awful though. The others I couldn't get to turn on because it wouldn't be Guitar Center without frustration hihi


Please, if space is a problem, or gigging etc, then fine, but if not, why not just buy a DX7 ?

hmmm.....


Because vintage gear is more trouble than it's worth for me. And I thought this had an interesting sound of it's own, more hi-fi than I remember the DX being (probably due to modern converters). But yeah I also don't have a ton of room and play out.


The DX7 is ultra reliable, don't worry bout that, it's not an issue.
darenager
I got the DX today, it very much reminds me of my old DX100 only better in every way - aside from the lack of mod wheel. Mini keys are not an issue for me, but space is, so l am pleased with it.

As expected it has much less noise on the output the the DX100, and it seems to be capable of the kind of FM sounds I like, the fx are perfectly usable, build quality seems at least as solid as I remember the DX100 being.

I wish that perhaps they had added a filter as part of the fx, there is a wah but a nice LPF would have been handy, and of course the lack of a modwheel is a bit weird, but overall a tidy synth.
Bob Borries
mckenic wrote:
Thanks for that video zedius!

I liked the DX7 so much better I went looking for a TX7 and ended up with a TX81Z for under $110.84 I want to get into FM percussion much, much more and it will keep me going until I can find a TG33 or TX7 hihi

The M4L editor and patch 'degrader' I just saw on Matrix should keep me busy!
So perhaps not the intended result of the video - but for me - Mr. Green win!


I just bought a TX81Z on eBay for $100, WOW is it great! 8 voice multi-timbral (8 individual synths) , 8 different waveforms, 32 voice memories, 2 LFO’s and its compatible with 1000’s of free patches on the internet. Amazingly clean for its age.
neuroportal
darenager wrote:
I got the DX today, it very much reminds me of my old DX100 only better in every way - aside from the lack of mod wheel. Mini keys are not an issue for me, but space is, so l am pleased with it.


Don't forget to update the firmware. It adds quantiser to the looper and the ability to set the range on the pitchbend - if you use the keyboard.

The looper I actually find incredibly useful. I was using it to set a basic sequence going, timing was set from an SQ1, but because it also can output the looper to a midi channel, I was using that also to transpose a Sequence on the Microbrute, which in turn was controlling a Minitaur.

Fun times!
Rigo
neuroportal wrote:
darenager wrote:
I got the DX today, it very much reminds me of my old DX100 only better in every way - aside from the lack of mod wheel. Mini keys are not an issue for me, but space is, so l am pleased with it.


Don't forget to update the firmware. It adds quantiser to the looper and the ability to set the range on the pitchbend - if you use the keyboard.

The looper I actually find incredibly useful. I was using it to set a basic sequence going, timing was set from an SQ1, but because it also can output the looper to a midi channel, I was using that also to transpose a Sequence on the Microbrute, which in turn was controlling a Minitaur.

Fun times!

So it turns out that apart from complaining about it, it can also be used in a musical context ? Who would have thought that ? Dead Banana hihi
mousegarden
OK, went on one of my pointless ambles around Londn yesterday, and ended up in Chappels/Yamaha shop in Soho. And there they were, the Refaces, all ready and waiting connected up to some speakers, great ! I thought.
My incredibly talented and very straightforward singer songwriter friend was with me, it went like this.....

Him, so what are these things then ?

Me, they're supposed to be theses really great little keyboards based on classic stuff.

Me, playing around and not getting any decent sounds to emerge, only cheesy tinkles and boring organ/synth sounds, and complaining about the wobbly flimsy controls.

Him, why don't thy make one with all the sounds in ? Why do they have to make all these ?

Me, probaly because thay can make more money by selling them seperatly.

Him, sound s like a f*****g rip off to me.

Me, yeah, you're right.
cscairney
Has anyone heard the CS trying to achieve those nice guitar pluck sounds from the CS-50/60/80? would love to here the subtleness of the instrument and not all those big fat rave stabs.
medbot
mousegarden wrote:
pointless ambles


Could've just said that.
darenager
neuroportal wrote:
darenager wrote:
I got the DX today, it very much reminds me of my old DX100 only better in every way - aside from the lack of mod wheel. Mini keys are not an issue for me, but space is, so l am pleased with it.


Don't forget to update the firmware. It adds quantiser to the looper and the ability to set the range on the pitchbend - if you use the keyboard.

The looper I actually find incredibly useful. I was using it to set a basic sequence going, timing was set from an SQ1, but because it also can output the looper to a midi channel, I was using that also to transpose a Sequence on the Microbrute, which in turn was controlling a Minitaur.

Fun times!


Thanks for the heads-up thumbs up Just did the update and quantise is handy, wish that the looper would allow for a pre-set step length as I find it a little tricky to hit stop right on the desired loop length, but no big deal.

Really happy with the DX overall though it fills the 4-OP FM void in my set up very nicely I'd take it over a DX100 or TX81z simply because programming it is much nicer, sure it does not have their grunge/noise/hum but it still has the legit FM character. The FX are actually fairly usable too I think.
vlk
Just got the DX. Here's a demo of it with lots of MIDI CCs coming from the Machinedrum's sequencer in "song mode". All sounds are the Yamaha.

dopefiend
Does anyone know if the keytar strap adapter is already available?
Karl_Joseph
vlk wrote:
Just got the DX. Here's a demo of it with lots of MIDI CCs coming from the Machinedrum's sequencer in "song mode". All sounds are the Yamaha.



Great applause. I love it!

How long did it take you to make that? How many CC are you controlling?
ym2612
Nice work, vlk!

mousegarden wrote:
Him, sound s like a f*****g rip off to me.

Me, yeah, you're right.


Hey, cool, you don't like them! Awesome!
kisielk
Karl_Joseph wrote:
vlk wrote:
Just got the DX. Here's a demo of it with lots of MIDI CCs coming from the Machinedrum's sequencer in "song mode". All sounds are the Yamaha.



Great applause. I love it!

How long did it take you to make that? How many CC are you controlling?


Judging by the display, approximately all of them. smile
vlk
Karl_Joseph wrote:

How long did it take you to make that? How many CC are you controlling?


Took about two hours to program. I think it was 14 CCs (operator ratios, levels, feedback, algorithm), in addition to note, gate, velocity, and mod wheel data. You can't do much to the envelopes with CCs, but you can get some variety by setting up different kinds of envelopes for each operator and switch between which is the carrier by changing algorithm and levels.
dadek
applause

well played @vlk. awesome sounds! some real potential there with the realtime CC controlling DX style FM parameters...

Guinness ftw! cheers.
MindMachine
Curious to know if anyone with a YC Reface has played it much through analog guitar pedals? Does the sound stay together or does it break up?

I do not have a lot of experience with digital keyboards and am really keen on the YC model, but would want to process the hell out of it about half of the time.

My only digital experience is with cheap Casio keyboards so maybe that has more to do with my concern than anything else.

I would process with various fuzz, echo, etc.

Thanks.
IR
^I don't see what the interest would be to make a guitar-level keyboard when you can simply turn down the volume to achieve the same thing.

Sometimes it depends on the pedals, some might not distort with the volume all the way up.
MindMachine
IR wrote:
^I don't see what the interest would be to make a guitar-level keyboard when you can simply turn down the volume to achieve the same thing.

Sometimes it depends on the pedals, some might not distort with the volume all the way up.


Of course you are correct. Just curious if anyone has had any first hand experience with this particular digital box.
oscillateur
MindMachine wrote:
Curious to know if anyone with a YC Reface has played it much through analog guitar pedals? Does the sound stay together or does it break up?

I do not have a lot of experience with digital keyboards and am really keen on the YC model, but would want to process the hell out of it about half of the time.

My only digital experience is with cheap Casio keyboards so maybe that has more to do with my concern than anything else.

I would process with various fuzz, echo, etc.

Thanks.


Hah, same as me. I want one to replace my SK1, basically. I tried one in shops 5 or 6 times by now and I'm pretty sure I love that thing... If I go to one of the shops that also has tons of effect pedals on a non-week-end day I could ask them to set it up with a few overdrives/fuzz. Not sure if I'd have time for that though, and the pedals I want to use are probably not available in the shop anyway...

But any pedal that handles line levels properly will be ok with the YC.
MindMachine
^. SK-1 and MT-140 here. I'll keep the SK-1's though. They do a lot of things. I might hit Sam Ash and give the YC a try with pedals too. I like negotiating prices there, which is an unheard of thing to them. It gives the Sales Mgr. a brain ache.

hihi
Blairio
mousegarden wrote:
I've got controller keyboards galore, none of them are what you might call ideal, they do the job


This is a point sadly missed by designers of emulation keyboards. A Hohner clavinet keyboard has a unique action and bite point, as does the Hohner Pianet, or a Hammond, or a Wurlitzer E200, or a Rhodes, or a Mellotron.

Even polyphonic aftertouch requires a specific action to be playable.

Most "rompler" keyboards are little more than a bunch of on/off switches with a bit of velocity sensitivity. An honourable exception being Nord.

With any electro-mechanical instrument, the method of sound production (plucking / striking / applying tape-read head) influences how the instrument is played and requires technique - just as playing an acoustic piano does.

This is lost when "freezing" the wonderful sounds if these instruments into samples. Which is why modelled sounds are generally more vibrant than sampled sounds. Check out Modartt's Pianoteq piano model - a great sounding piano with a footprint in megabytes rather than gigabytes.
Knights Who Say Neve
vlk wrote:
Just got the DX. Here's a demo of it with lots of MIDI CCs coming from the Machinedrum's sequencer in "song mode". All sounds are the Yamaha.



I quite liked that- thank you for sharing.
dubonaire
This video suggests that the sonic depth of a DX7 is completely missing in the Reface.

grenert
dubonaire wrote:
This video suggests that the sonic depth of a DX7 is completely missing in the Reface.

Well, you're comparing a 4-op synth (Reface) to a 6-op one (DX7), so I would hope you gain something with the additional operators.
dubonaire
grenert wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
This video suggests that the sonic depth of a DX7 is completely missing in the Reface.

Well, you're comparing a 4-op synth (Reface) to a 6-op one (DX7), so I would hope you gain something with the additional operators.


Sure. but anyone who thinks they are getting good fm synthesis is kidding themselves. It's a toy.
neuroportal
dubonaire wrote:
grenert wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
This video suggests that the sonic depth of a DX7 is completely missing in the Reface.

Well, you're comparing a 4-op synth (Reface) to a 6-op one (DX7), so I would hope you gain something with the additional operators.


Sure. but anyone who thinks they are getting good fm synthesis is kidding themselves. It's a toy.


OK, it is a toy, If that makes you happy. You can sit from on high laughing at us poor idiots.

But being an idiot, I like this toy.

Hey! Win Win!

hyper
dubonaire
neuroportal wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
grenert wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
This video suggests that the sonic depth of a DX7 is completely missing in the Reface.

Well, you're comparing a 4-op synth (Reface) to a 6-op one (DX7), so I would hope you gain something with the additional operators.


Sure. but anyone who thinks they are getting good fm synthesis is kidding themselves. It's a toy.


OK, it is a toy, If that makes you happy. You can sit from on high laughing at us poor idiots.

But being an idiot, I like this toy.

Hey! Win Win!

hyper


Look I have no idea why you are taking this personally. I honestly don't mind what you make music with. Spend your money on whatever you want. I'm happy if you're happy. But I should be free to air an opinion, and the only thing I said that could be offensive was that people who think they are getting good FM synthesis are kidding themselves. I think it is of value to hear what a DX7 actually sounds like. I think the whole point of FM synthesis is to get the timbral richness and special sounds that subtractive synthesis won't provide. I didn't say people are somehow inferior because they like the instrument. You don't have to defend your purchase to me, it's not my money. Personally, I think Ableton's Operator is brilliant. If I was looking for sounds like this I would buy Live suite. It's my view that hardware should provide a better option and Yamaha is trading off the brand value of innovative synths to offer up mediocre products. YMMV.
neuroportal
Quote:
the only thing I said that could be offensive was that people who think they are getting good FM synthesis are kidding themselves.


That was pretty much why I commented. smile Though I didn't expect it to come across so strong, my use of the word 'idiot' was probably the main contributing factor there.


Bearing in mind that if Yamaha took off the speakers, added a pitchbend wheel to the edge and called it a DX100 mkII, that I doubt people would have been so critical. Maybe. But then this is dangerously getting close to the Vinyl/CD arguments. *

*ftr - vinyl all the way! smile
dubonaire
neuroportal wrote:
Quote:
the only thing I said that could be offensive was that people who think they are getting good FM synthesis are kidding themselves.


That was pretty much why I commented. smile Though I didn't expect it to come across so strong, my use of the word 'idiot' was probably the main contributing factor there.


Bearing in mind that if Yamaha took off the speakers, added a pitchbend wheel to the edge and called it a DX100 mkII, that I doubt people would have been so critical. Maybe. But then this is dangerously getting close to the Vinyl/CD arguments. *

*ftr - vinyl all the way! smile


I guess I could have chosen my words better. You just don't see any proper assessment in the press. All the criticism has been about the size of the keys. It's a bit odd. The DX7 used pretty basic chips for the operators and I thought it would be pretty inexpensive for Yamaha to actually make a beast of a machine.

I'm a vinyl DJ but the power of digital for accessing and manipulating music is unignorable.
mousegarden
I guess this will fill a need for a lot of folks, there's no point in getting heated about this, it's only personal opinion about an instrument that's supposed to make people happy making music, it's not an AK47.
You know I don't like it, but that's just me, but I will say that the UK sales rep's aren't doing Yamaha any favours by blatantly lying to people at shows, one gave me the impression the organ model could do pipe organ sounds, obviously not true. And they definitely thought that the small keys weren't a problem, when I said that the keyboard was definitely an issue for me they acted surprised, and asked why I wanted one, I said I was a keyboard player, and keyboard players on the whole like a keyboard, a proper one, not a toy.
They didn't want to listen and didn't want to know, same old audio show bullshit. These types of salesmen only do the product a disservice, I certainly wouldn't want them promoting my stuff if I was a manufacturer, they make used car salesmen look respectable. It's not just Yamaha, their all at it, they all seem so desperate to sell stuff they will resort to telling you any old tosh.
vlk
When I break out the good hair-mousse and squeeze into my elasticated white tuxedo to give an emotionally-charged but musically-faithful performance of Foreigner's "I Want To Know What Love Is", I reach for the DX7 mkII. Period. If I tried that on a Reface, literally no-one would take me seriously.
bournio
Finally had a play with the DX reface. I have a DX9 and I love it.

BUT

If I hadn't bought my DX9 a few years ago, I would've bought one of these.

They are so nice to programme! I love the 4 sliders, so much easier than data entry on the DX9. And the effects aren't bad.

THEN AGAIN... I've heard people say the DX9 is just a toy too.
natrixgli
I just wanted to make a quick post regarding the Reface CS that I grabbed a little over a week ago.

I am so in love with this synth! It's the opposite of complicated, but surprisingly complex in terms of sound. I love using either FM or Ring Mod oscillator modes with a very short decay, a tiny bit of distortion, and tons of resonance. It creates really cool percussive sounds that I'll record into rhythmic sequences in the looper. Then gradually morph them into more conventional synth sounds which is SUPER fun. The FX sound great, the oscillators sound great, the filter sounds great.

The CS is a synth where you kind of have to ignore specs and just spend time with it. It has a really great personality and an immediacy that reminds me why I like synthesizers in the first place. Definitely a keeper.
Christopher Winkels
Markus has disassembled the YC version if anyone's interested:


joey
So after initially being a hater I gotta say I tried the reface DX and am impressed. It's really great and satisfying to edit
calaveras
I tried each one of these at the Yamaha table at the 'Synth Fest" which took place at Main Drag Music in Brooklyn 6 weeks ago or so.
I remember liking them as a nice little cutesy gadget. But thinking they were pretty toy like. Also they would be great for an entry level home recordist, but I'd cringe to see anyone trying to play out live on one.
Then today I remembered the existence of them, and with holidays 2 weeks away I thought I'd look them up.
$500? Hell no... Dead Banana
More like
(or $199 honestly, that is what I'd pay).
It is very strange to me to pay $500 for a minified half ass version of a 4op DX when I can buy those every day of the week used for less than half of that. And get a better keybed. Full midi connectivity etc.

OTOH I hope this means that Yamaha will possibly come out with some more re-issues/emulations of their gear of yore.
Like a modern DX7 with midi over USB
Annwn
calaveras wrote:
half ass version of a 4op DX


I was pretty sure it's essentially a full ass version of a 4op DX i.e. more flexible than the 27/100.
dopefiend
Another thing about the DX is, I think, the fact that all the operators have a resonant loop, which makes for more complex and rich sounds, and probably compensates for the fewer operators....I still prefer my DX7llFD. And my DX7s. Bought them cheaper than the Refaces..... applause
calaveras
Annwn wrote:
calaveras wrote:
half ass version of a 4op DX


I was pretty sure it's essentially a full ass version of a 4op DX i.e. more flexible than the 27/100.

I mean if you like it that is cool and all. I am just dissapointed in companies that only revisit their old glory days products as minified versions.
They are totally appropriate for home studio goofing, or teen garage bands. But I find these toy re-issues, for me at least, annoying. especially when it has no pitch or mod wheels but it has speakers?
Like I said, for $200 maybe, but $500, they gotta be insane.
Annwn
An already overstated point is that a lot of successful artists have used instruments otherwise regarded as toys. Autechre comes to mind.

Horses for courses etc.
dubonaire
Annwn wrote:
An already overstated point is that a lot of successful artists have used instruments otherwise regarded as toys. Autechre comes to mind.

Horses for courses etc.


Yes agree completely. I think my point, also calaveras's point, is that these manufacturers are making less powerful, sonically thinner, versions of their classic synths, and really technology and cost of manufacture should give them the opportunity to do the opposite. I think they are just cashing in on the hardware resurgence/ITB backlash and not showing any innovation, with simulacras of the originals. Nothing wrong with making that point in my view, and it's not saying people shouldn't buy them or like them, or that they can't be used to make good music.
soundwave106
dubonaire wrote:
I think my point, also calaveras's point, is that these manufacturers are making less powerful, sonically thinner, versions of their classic synths, and really technology and cost of manufacture should give them the opportunity to do the opposite.


With the significant competition from software, I can kind of see why some hardware manufacturers have held back, played conservative, and released cheap simple boxes. (It helps that some cheap simple boxes like the Microkorg have been very successful).

The success of the Prophet 6 shows that this is not the only strategy even these days. (And even there, I suppose you could argue that this synth is backward looking, in a way. But it is at least a full featured retro synth.)

My impression of Yamaha is that they are the *least* innovative and most conservative of the big synth companies... they've made a few things here and there that were something new, but most of their lineup for the last 10 years has been "let's recycle 2000s Motif technology", it seems.
ym2612
I think people make the same mistake with the DX (comparing it to a DX7 instead of Yamaha's 4-op synths) as they do with the CS (comparing it to the CS80). Maybe Yamaha is partially to blame with the naming and marketing, but it has no bearing on the utility of these instruments.

Now, I had considered the DX, but found the price tag a little too dear. But there's nothing about it for my (non-virtuoso) purposes that makes it somehow lacking.

What I can sort of understand - but not sympathize with - is the seething, burning hate some people seem to have for minikeys. It's like people feel personally insulted by them.
Nofrenchtests
ym2612 wrote:


What I can sort of understand - but not sympathize with - is the seething, burning hate some people seem to have for minikeys. It's like people feel personally insulted by them.


Cyber1
just testing post ...tnx and sorry in advance..new to this
calaveras
ym2612 wrote:
I think people make the same mistake with the DX (comparing it to a DX7 instead of Yamaha's 4-op synths) as they do with the CS (comparing it to the CS80). Maybe Yamaha is partially to blame with the naming and marketing, but it has no bearing on the utility of these instruments.

Now, I had considered the DX, but found the price tag a little too dear. But there's nothing about it for my (non-virtuoso) purposes that makes it somehow lacking.

What I can sort of understand - but not sympathize with - is the seething, burning hate some people seem to have for minikeys. It's like people feel personally insulted by them.

I own a DX27, a 4 op synth. It is a full size keyboard with pretty decent action, midi in/out and thru and stereo outs.
Cost me all of $100 on CL.
This is why I personally don't see any use for the DX.
The other models are a little more interesting I suppose, but can an E piano or organ with minikeys garner much interest from people that can actually play with both hands and know all those, what are they called? Scales? Chords?
I'm also kind of confused about why even do a CS series synth if it is only going to be an emulation.
Perhaps what really throws a wet blanket on them for me (aside from the price!) is the 'mobile mini keyboard' thing. I could not care less about having speakers for a mobile keyboard. If they were cheaper I could see high school kids maybe latching on to these. But for the price you can get some decent stuff like a DSI Mopho, Blofeld etc.
And they arent that mini. I imagine they would not fit comfortably in a messenger bag or carry on. Just a bit too long.
soundwave106
ym2612 wrote:
What I can sort of understand - but not sympathize with - is the seething, burning hate some people seem to have for minikeys. It's like people feel personally insulted by them.


No "hate" from me per se because they are okay enough for leads and basslines and other simpler passages. But as calaveras implies, it's basically more if you want to play more "piano style".

From my perspective, the small size of the keys make playing tight chords or arpeggiations a lot harder, and make scale runs a lot more fumbly. The limited octaves on most mini key boards usually also means two handed playing just doesn't happen.

The bright side is that your hand can span way more than typical. And "piano style playing" isn't the norm in most pop these days anyway. seriously, i just don't get it

Still, I don't understand making a mini-key e-Piano or combo organ. Maybe someone can prove me wrong and play, say, Boston's "Foreplay" on a Yamaha Reface YC.
dubonaire
ym2612 wrote:
I think people make the same mistake with the DX (comparing it to a DX7 instead of Yamaha's 4-op synths) as they do with the CS (comparing it to the CS80). Maybe Yamaha is partially to blame with the naming and marketing, but it has no bearing on the utility of these instruments.

Now, I had considered the DX, but found the price tag a little too dear. But there's nothing about it for my (non-virtuoso) purposes that makes it somehow lacking.

What I can sort of understand - but not sympathize with - is the seething, burning hate some people seem to have for minikeys. It's like people feel personally insulted by them.


This the thing though, it would have cost them next to nothing to make a product with 6 or 8 operators. Anyway, I'm not as fussed about this as I appear in this thread.

I don't understand how anyone can 'hate' a musical instrument. I find that just bizarre. It's probably just hyperbole.
FrankV
ym2612 wrote:
What I can sort of understand - but not sympathize with - is the seething, burning hate some people seem to have for minikeys. It's like people feel personally insulted by them.


Well, yeah. I do actually feel [sort-of] insulted by mini-keys on something purporting to be a keyboard instrument -- if you have any long term experience with operating a keyboard, you're physically used to it, and it's sized and shaped for a particular manner of interfacing with your hands.

Once you have some sort of credible technique with playing a normal sized keyboard (which still seems to be the norm), trying to squeeze onto a mini-key setup can be really annoying.

What would guitarists do if you changed the number of frets, placed them closer together, and/or used fewer strings? Give a clarinetist a clarinet with fewer keys, or the same number of keys, but squeezed closer together and made smaller too. Check to see who's insulted, and of course, there's always going to be someone who says "oh, cool! Look there's some funky stuff you can do with this that you can't do with a full sized one of these...!"

I've got thickish fingers, and 40+ years of non-formal experience with full-sized keys. So, mini-keys are a chore to work with, particularly coming from a company that has proven with other products that they can actually release instruments with full-sized keys.

OK, so why, really, do I sound grumpy? I jedi-mind-tricked myself into expecting a normal sized interface with that 'keys made by a piano player' comment in that stupid-ass teaser video. Oh, how I disappointed myself. d'oh!

FrankV
skyshaver
I don't find the min-keys an issue and I've been playing piano for years. Also with your guitar analogy, most of my guitars have different scales and the frets are not spaced equally. A fender neck scale is different from a gibson neck scale which is different from a nylon string neck scale etc. Your fingers adapt to the scaling quite quickly. That being said regular keys to mini key is a much bigger jump but I find I can adapt fairly quickly. Also I can stretch well over an octave with one hand which has it's advantages.
MindMachine
vlk wrote:
When I break out the good hair-mousse and squeeze into my elasticated white tuxedo to give an emotionally-charged but musically-faithful performance of Foreigner's "I Want To Know What Love Is", I reach for the DX7 mkII. Period. If I tried that on a Reface, literally no-one would take me seriously.


we're not worthy
kisielk
FrankV wrote:

What would guitarists do if you changed the number of frets, placed them closer together, and/or used fewer strings? Give a clarinetist a clarinet with fewer keys, or the same number of keys, but squeezed closer together and made smaller too. Check to see who's insulted, and of course, there's always going to be someone who says "oh, cool! Look there's some funky stuff you can do with this that you can't do with a full sized one of these...!"


Well, as a guitarist I already deal with this. My electric guitar, steel string acoustic, bass, nylon string, and mandolin all have varying thicknesses of string, fret and string spacing, and number of strings. It takes some adjustment for each instrument and you need to learn some additional technique, but it's not really a big deal.

There are also many different types of clarinets and clarinet-like instruments that many clarinetists can play...
IR
FrankV wrote:
What would guitarists do if you changed the number of frets, placed them closer together, and/or used fewer strings?

Some guitarists like those and all those things have a cult following.
soundwave106
IR wrote:
Some guitarists like those and all those things have a cult following.


Some mini keys are slightly over half the size of a standard key, in both width and length.

There's nothing called "guitar" that is like that, really.

You're more or less talking about (in plucked string terms) guitar vs. ukulele. Minus the physics / sonic differences of course, but similar scaling down.

It's certainly translatable, yes. However, it's more of a leap than the usually small differences between various guitar fret sizes.

What hurts many mini key boards is less their key size and more their limited octave range. In addition, a lot of them have felt "cheap" to me as far as picking up velocity / expression. You don't always need either, of course, and for some I'm sure portability is more important.
joey
You guys are all way too serious about this shit
dubonaire
joey wrote:
You guys are all way too serious about this shit


Having a serious conversation doesn't make someone too serious about something. Reasonably intelligent people are quite capable of talking about something seriously and also being able to laugh about it too, in my experience. And it's easy, if you don't like serious conversations just don't join them.
Jason Brock
Quick question for Reface owners - when you play back something from the Looper, is it also sending those notes out externally via the MIDI din connection?

I noticed an OS update lets you quantize the looper now. It would be cool to use this as a quick and easy sequencer for other gear too. I'm starting to think I need a CS or CP to play around with, just can't decide on which one.
MrTurboparrot
dubonaire wrote:
joey wrote:
You guys are all way too serious about this shit


Having a serious conversation doesn't make someone too serious about something. Reasonably intelligent people are quite capable of talking about something seriously and also being able to laugh about it too, in my experience. And it's easy, if you don't like serious conversations just don't join them.


Guys - maybe this will help: It's an interview of the main Yamaha Reface engineer in which he confesses his true feelings of the DX, and his relationship with Yamaha management. It has been translated, but it is quite revealing! I guess he no longer works there....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0vbmFrnLFI&t=4s
Jason Brock
Jason Brock wrote:
Quick question for Reface owners - when you play back something from the Looper, is it also sending those notes out externally via the MIDI din connection?


I think I found the answer on VSE (looper does transmit MIDI):
http://www.vintagesynth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=80147&start=405
sinfunc
Jason Brock wrote:
Jason Brock wrote:
Quick question for Reface owners - when you play back something from the Looper, is it also sending those notes out externally via the MIDI din connection?


I think I found the answer on VSE (looper does transmit MIDI):
http://www.vintagesynth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=80147&start=405


i'd like to know about this too. not entirely sure it'll send phrase looper notes via MIDI. from the manual, looks to be sync start/stop only. too bad, if so...

Yamaha reface manual, p.36... wrote:
Connecting your reface to another MIDI device (such as a keyboard or tone genera-
tor module) expands its performance features and allows you to do the following.
• Play the reface from a MIDI keyboard
• Play a tone generator module by using the reface
• Synchronize the Phrase Loopers of a reface CS and reface DX
In addition, if you connect your reface to a computer, you can also make use of the
following additional recording and playing features.
• Record performances on the reface as MIDI data in a DAW application
• Play the reface using recorded data from a DAW application
• Play a software synthesizer from the reface
Jason Brock
sinfunc wrote:

i'd like to know about this too. not entirely sure it'll send phrase looper notes via MIDI. from the manual, looks to be sync start/stop only. too bad, if so...


Well I ordered a CS and it should be here Friday, so I will let you know.
Feinstrom
soundwave106 wrote:
Maybe someone can prove me wrong and play, say, Boston's "Foreplay" on a Yamaha Reface YC.

Well, from the beginning of the second minute you'd need a Reface CP as well.
I am currently in the process of planning a bigger music room, and I can see my CS as a part of a sequencer-driven oldschool synth setup, for typing in and transposing sequences and playing the occasional (phenomenal if you ask me!) pad.
The CP is going to rest on the right side of the Fusion 8HD and will be played from the Fusion's keyboard.
The YC will be fed into a Motion Sound leslie-sim and played from a 61-key MIDI keyboard, and I can use it as a great drone machine in my live setup.
I haven't yet gelled with the DX tbh. The future will show if I actually need it - have to thoroughly compare it to the Modor NF-1 with its crippled but soooo accessible FM engine.
Oh, and speaking of the Modor: It blends fantastically with the CS, creating a very big and clear sound (the CS not being velocity-sensitive is a bonus in this case!). And it's even the same colour and width...

Yes, I like those little gems!

Cheers,
Bert
Astrolabe23
Pretty sure the YouTube video of the "Yamaha designer" is totally fake. There are lots of videos of the same guy saying he is everything from a video game designer to the new CEO of Apple. My Spanish is a bit rusty but the subtitles seem to have nothing to do with what this guy is actually saying.
mckenic
Risitas is a fairly well worn meme -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDiB4rtp1qw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Risitas
Christopher Winkels
I guess these must be selling, because unlike Roland (announce the Aira modular at $400/module, a year later it's $170) Yamaha is sticking to the $500 price point here in Canada.
MrTurboparrot
mckenic wrote:
Risitas is a fairly well worn meme -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDiB4rtp1qw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Risitas


Yes - I know Mr. Green !!! It was just my 'dry' sense of humour presenting it like I didn't know what it actually was. It is worn, but still very funny video though!
mckenic
thumbs up Sorry mate! That one slipped by me lol!
Catmandeux
I'm rather satisfied with the reface form factor. There's lots of gear out there. If you don't like these four models, get something else that works to your liking and inclinations.

What I like is that...
It's as large as can be to be less than 22" with case. Meaning you can carry and stow on a plane. It fits within my carry on luggage too if I need to check bags. It's super light too, which also helps with travel.
Built in speakers and battery power also mean less stuff to plug in to get sound. Less stuff to lug around and keep track of.
And the streamlined interface on the CS is a joy to work with. The immediacy is a win. As I've noticed with other streamlined interfaces (e.g. Nord A1), I focus more on the present sound instead of layers of diversions.
Little gripes I've had, have been more or less addressed with firmware and website revisions. Only criticism I have is that it should of had built in Bluetooth midi from the beginning instead of having to use the dongle + yami BT cable. And I wish the keyboard velocity was mapped to the CS engine, namely the AEG/FEG fader.

But it's just a blast to noodle around with. The concept reminds me of those little travel guitars, but with great tone.
Jason Brock
sinfunc wrote:
i'd like to know about this too. not entirely sure it'll send phrase looper notes via MIDI. from the manual, looks to be sync start/stop only.


My CS came today and I confirmed the looper does send MIDI notes out. Nice. It also sends start/stop because it triggered my Mother-32 to start its own sequencer.
First impression after 20 minutes with the CS: instant fun, great sound for a VA, and the build quality is better than I was expecting.
IR
That's cool, but it doesn't remember the sequence if you turn off the synth, does it?

What about the MIDI channel?
Jason Brock
IR wrote:
That's cool, but it doesn't remember the sequence if you turn off the synth, does it?

What about the MIDI channel?


Sequence is lost when powering down.
It does remember some settings after reboot, like turning the speakers off/on.

MIDI Send on the CS is limited to either Channel 1 or Off. MIDI Receive can be 1-16 but it needs to be sent a sysex message to change that and I don't think it remembers that channel after reboot. From what I've read it always defaults to Omni Receive when turned on. I won't be able to test that until next week.
mousegarden
I think they should start making things bigger than the originals, just imagine a DX7 with knobs, and an 8 octave keyboard, and a massive display.
I think this trend for smaller products is unhealthy. It may stem from Japan, where they have smaller places to live, so everything tends to be small.
Also, I'm shure there is some tax dodge on electronics if you keep things within certain limits. But what we mustn't loose sight of, and what that fake video alluded to are the facts, that manufacturers are continually having to reinvent the wheel, if not they stop trading, simple as that. And sonetimes it does seem like they are saying...

"come on chaps, let's see what we can actually get away with here, as long as we market it right and give it the right PR you know we can sell more or less anything if we hang our name on the end of it"

Also, prices, how much does it actually cost to make "anything" the answer is a fraction of a minuscule amount, compared to the RRP. There are so many middlemen creaming off shit from the high retail, that the cost of say, a Reface probably works out at just a few tens of dollars, and that's being generous
sydilaxe
I picked up a Reface CP at the end of last year on the secondhand market. I love the damn thing. Sounds great...super portable...very musical. I can't say that about a ton of instruments. I am actually happy that these things are getting dismissed; I can't wait to pick up a used YC that someone hasn't connected with.
Tumulishroomaroom
sydilaxe wrote:
I picked up a Reface CP at the end of last year on the secondhand market. I love the damn thing. Sounds great...super portable...very musical. I can't say that about a ton of instruments. I am actually happy that these things are getting dismissed; I can't wait to pick up a used YC that someone hasn't connected with.


A friend of mine got one too for his birthday last year and I agree that it does sound very good. I'd like to pick one myself for my girlfriend... (So she doesn't take my OP1 hihi )
sinfunc
Jason Brock wrote:
My CS came today and I confirmed the looper does send MIDI notes out. Nice. It also sends start/stop because it triggered my Mother-32 to start its own sequencer.


that's awesome. thanks for passing the info along!
MindMachine
I've been using a YC Reface for about 6-8 months. I love it. Been running it through the Catalinbread Echorec. Instant Klaus Schulze drones (and much more of course). Even for a non-keyboardist. Great variety of sound.

I'm hoping to find a clean CS Reface to be my polyphonic. I think they sound pretty damn good.
Jason Brock
MindMachine wrote:
I'm hoping to find a clean CS Reface to be my polyphonic. I think they sound pretty damn good.


If you're in the US, I got mine for $306 brand new from Sam Ash.
They are listing them as "used" on Ebay but I suspect this is to get around the minimum advertised price restriction. Mine arrived brand new, never opened. And then they relisted the auction:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Reface-CS-Mini-Key-Keyboard-Used-/18244 1648409
MindMachine
^ Excellent tip. Checking now.
D_Bowman
I'm having a hard time finding out if the CS reface's envelope retriggers if you play legato. Can anyone enlighten me?
Jason Brock
D_Bowman wrote:
I'm having a hard time finding out if the CS reface's envelope retriggers if you play legato. Can anyone enlighten me?


Envelope does not retrigger when playing legato in Mono mode.
In Poly mode I think it does, that would make sense.
bambrose
Guys - maybe this will help: It's an interview of the main Yamaha Reface engineer in which he confesses his true feelings of the DX, and his relationship with Yamaha management. It has been translated, but it is quite revealing! I guess he no longer works there....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0vbmFrnLFI&t=4s[/quote]

That is bloody funny
stikygum
Dang, they have that clip promoting everything now. And yet it never gets old what company they put him in charge of. You could probably pair this video with any text and I'd probably still find it funny. Surprised some company hasn't done a real commercial or marketing with this guy. Seems like it'd be a win.
mckenic
Well we already had it on the 30th January (on page 16) so its due again on the 30th March I suppose...
Jason Brock
mckenic wrote:
Well we already had it on the 30th January (on page 16) so its due again on the 30th March I suppose...


It was posted 4 different times before that, first on page 5 back in 2015.
(I was bored at work yesterday so I read this entire thread Dead Banana)
mckenic
Thanks for looking that up mate!
I knew there was a reason it irked me more in this thread than it should...
Northward
I think the Yamaha Reface CS sounds surpricingly good after all the initial abuse it got. It looks real inviting to pick up and play anywhere. That kind of noodeling you do with a guitar in front of the telly.

I'd like one to bring to rehearsal with ease. The BIG problem I have with it is the moronic decision of no memory... I wonder if this was the sound designers idea.. It's just so weird!, and incedible annoying to be dependable of a smartphone/PC for storing patches. With just a modest bank memory these would've been such a great little units.

HELLO YAMAHA DESIGNERS: the 1980's called and wondered about where the patch memory got lost!?! hihi

Let's hope Yamaha come to their senses and make a Reface 2. Please, do! Most VA minisynths I've heard sounds crap. The Reface CS and YC sounds real musical.
ranix
I think the CS is fine with no memory. The point of it is to get a good sound from scratch really fast, and for it to be more or less your special specific sound you happened to get that time. It's for wiggling with, and the wiggly bits are designed to sound good no matter what you do with them.

If anything is a moronic decision, it's Yamaha still not releasing a DX synth with knobs for the operator ADSRs
Catmandeux
All the refaces can be wirelessly connected to an idevice using the midi dongle and the Yamaha Bluetooth midi caps. Can quickly store and retrieve custom patches locally or from the cloud. If you don't have an apple idevice, then midi it to a chrome browser running webmidi.
electr0andy
I hope this is the Tenori-On update I have been waiting for so patiently. Please Yamaha!
Northward
ranix wrote:
I think the CS is fine with no memory. The point of it is to get a good sound from scratch really fast, and for it to be more or less your special specific sound you happened to get that time. It's for wiggling with, and the wiggly bits are designed to sound good no matter what you do with them


I disagree cause I think these little synths really could be much more. Great for e.g. band practice and even gigging with just the added memory option. One can tell the people behind the sound design really know their stuff. Fucking about with phones or PC for storing patches however is a massive killjoy that I HATE and I pray to the end of the iOS-jerkoff-era hihi (yup! I own an iPhone hihi ) These stooopid decicions..? it must be the bean counters.

Refaces mini-keys got massive abuse online when released. People really seem to detest them so much it's a bit entertaing to read about lol lol lol But the real crappola IMHO was the lack of memory! And, the fact that so many care should tell the manufacturers that people really love playable good sounding little synths. Yeah, -even slightly unplayable ones gets alotta love..(I'm looking at you Korg Volcas!)

NB. I wonder what Korgs wiz-kid Tats (Tatsuya Takahashi) will come up with now that he's left Korg...

Hoping for Reface II. The Common Sense Strikes Back.
ranix
I don't play out but if I did I'd just let the audience listen to me dial in the sounds. It's cool anyway, I don't need no presets

I actually like the mini keys. I have other keyboards for doing most stuff, these are really nice when I want to sit in the living room and work out a tune or use it as a midi controller on my desk
Jason Brock
While we're vocalizing our wish lists, I do hope Yamaha releases a full-sized knob-per-function VA one day. Probably won't happen, which is a shame because their VA engine sounds so good.

My thoughts on patch storage - I had the Bluetooth adapter for my CS, and it worked great to store patches on my iPhone. However, the problem with using the MIDI jack strictly for patch storage meant I had to use the USB connection for actual MIDI, and there was a lot of ground noise/computer bleed getting into the audio path of my Reface when using USB. I can't have that, so I returned the Bluetooth adapter and I'm back to using the DIN connection for MIDI. If I have the urge to store a patch I need to plug in the USB and go to the Soundmondo website. In a month of usage I've stored 5 patches. Most things are just easy enough to recreate quickly that I don't bother.
Jason Brock
Anyone with a CP might want to try this trick that supposedly gets you a normal piano sound out of it (instead of the toy piano). Try turning it off, position the "Type" knob in between any of the actual settings, then turn it on again.

From page 3 of this thread over at GS.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electroni c-music-production/1149967-yamaha-reface-cp-hidden-acoustic-piano-soun d-3.html
realeoin
Hi

Just got my Reface CP and DX in the door from Thomann

Included in each box was a PA-130B power supply

This B type supply has removable plugs (see attached image)

However, and this really pisses me off, NO PLUG ADAPTERS were included

Can't find them anywhere

I'm looking for UK type adapters for it

Anyone know where to get them?

Thanks

Iridite
In general I'd say the Reface series are a little confused, the range doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me but I've got the DX one and enjoy it for what it is
realeoin
Bumping for UK power adapter knowledge ??

These have to be available somewhere

Yamaha support basically told me to fork out €60 for for UK versions of the PA-130

DESPITE the fact that two tiny plug adapters are all that is required to fix the problem

Poor service in every sense of the word

Yamaha support have agreed that they exist

Yet Thomann where I bought the synths is saying they don't

I'm being shafted by both Thomann and Yamaha here

These should have been included with the product

I'm now stuck with two synths that I have to either pay €60 more,

or else buy after market non-proprietary hardware to actually use.

Can anyone help?

I've seen these clip on plugs with plenty of other gear

Someone must know where they can be found

Thanks
mckenic
(They *sometimes* included these in the pack for me - sometimes I had to buy them but...)

Ask Thomann to send you one of these - Sorry - wrong link
Ack thats the wrong one again - gimme a moment...

Finally - https://www.thomann.de/ie/thomann_adaptor_euro_psu_uk.htm?ref=search_r slt_thomann+euro+uk+adapter_350932_6
realeoin
mckenic wrote:
(They *sometimes* included these in the pack for me - sometimes I had to buy them but...)

Ask Thomann to send you one of these - Sorry - wrong link
Ack thats the wrong one again - gimme a moment...

Finally - https://www.thomann.de/ie/thomann_adaptor_euro_psu_uk.htm?ref=search_r slt_thomann+euro+uk+adapter_350932_6


Hi thanks

Yes they sent me two of those but the are cheap and cumbersome

What should have been included is something similar to this (see pic)

Yamaha says it exists but won't replace the adapters I have

Unless I spend €60 extra euro

And Thomann deny it exists

werock
Jason Brock wrote:
Anyone with a CP might want to try this trick that supposedly gets you a normal piano sound out of it (instead of the toy piano). Try turning it off, position the "Type" knob in between any of the actual settings, then turn it on again.

From page 3 of this thread over at GS.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electroni c-music-production/1149967-yamaha-reface-cp-hidden-acoustic-piano-soun d-3.html


That sounds like quite a decent piano sound - interesting 'bug'!
mckenic
Ah yes - I understand!

I once got a Werkstatt from Massdrop with the same type adapter - universal just pop on the 'head' you want... except is not universal if only the USA head was included! I contacted them asking and said they must have an office somewhere with all the unused heads could I please have a UK one. No go!

It is actually a fairly annoying situation - my MiniNova has the same footprint head-adapter so I can use the Werkstatt, just not the same time as the MiniNova!

realeoin wrote:
mckenic wrote:
(They *sometimes* included these in the pack for me - sometimes I had to buy them but...)

Ask Thomann to send you one of these - Sorry - wrong link
Ack thats the wrong one again - gimme a moment...

Finally - https://www.thomann.de/ie/thomann_adaptor_euro_psu_uk.htm?ref=search_r slt_thomann+euro+uk+adapter_350932_6


Hi thanks

Yes they sent me two of those but the are cheap and cumbersome

What should have been included is something similar to this (see pic)

Yamaha says it exists but won't replace the adapters I have

Unless I spend €60 extra euro

And Thomann deny it exists

Iridite
Unfortunately they tend to be different for each plug type - Moog, Waldorf and Arturia all use them too but each one is different for each brand of PSU unfortunately!

Send me an email on jason@signalsounds.com, I'll see if there's something I can do for you

cheers

Jason
realeoin
Iridite wrote:
Unfortunately they tend to be different for each plug type - Moog, Waldorf and Arturia all use them too but each one is different for each brand of PSU unfortunately!

Send me an email on jason@signalsounds.com, I'll see if there's something I can do for you

cheers

Jason


Wow! Thanks

I'll email you when I get to work later this morning

Had a nasty exchange with Thomann over the phone yesterday

Their best advice is still "give us €60 for new adapters or send the whole lot back for a refund"

Wouldn't even agree to meet me half way on the cost

I was really tempted to just return the lot. Let the deal with it

I really can't believe it. It would be such a simple fix for them. And I would leave the whole experience a satisfied customer.
h4ndcrafted
mckenic wrote:
Ah yes - I understand!

I once got a Werkstatt from Massdrop with the same type adapter - universal just pop on the 'head' you want... except is not universal if only the USA head was included! I contacted them asking and said they must have an office somewhere with all the unused heads could I please have a UK one. No go!

It is actually a fairly annoying situation - my MiniNova has the same footprint head-adapter so I can use the Werkstatt, just not the same time as the MiniNova!

realeoin wrote:
mckenic wrote:
(They *sometimes* included these in the pack for me - sometimes I had to buy them but...)

Ask Thomann to send you one of these - Sorry - wrong link
Ack thats the wrong one again - gimme a moment...

Finally - https://www.thomann.de/ie/thomann_adaptor_euro_psu_uk.htm?ref=search_r slt_thomann+euro+uk+adapter_350932_6


Hi thanks

Yes they sent me two of those but the are cheap and cumbersome

What should have been included is something similar to this (see pic)

Yamaha says it exists but won't replace the adapters I have

Unless I spend €60 extra euro

And Thomann deny it exists




I'm so fed up of Musicstore/DV. , Thomann doing this, in fact I read somewhere , not sure if it's true, that it is a legal requirement for a proper UK plug to be fitted in the UK. Might want to check and go down that route.
realeoin
[/quote]I'm so fed up of Musicstore/DV. , Thomann doing this, in fact I read somewhere , not sure if it's true, that it is a legal requirement for a proper UK plug to be fitted in the UK. Might want to check and go down that route.[/quote]


Technically Thomann are European because they are in Germany. But they do distribute to the UK and Ireland. And they know these are different plug type regions.

The support guy at Thomann told me "they don't ever" give UK plug types but I know they do give UK plugs because they have done so in the past. Several times.

My guess is that Thomann have both UK and Euro "versions" of Yamaha products (or any manufacturer)

When I place an order and there are no UK versions in stock, rather than ask me if a Euro version is okay they just send it anyways and throw in a cheap plug convertor.
h4ndcrafted
Well thats the thing, I think it was an Amazon review, so obviously take it with a pinch of salt, but the guy said he had been an electrician for x amount of years, and if you were selling direct to the UK you were included in this rule.

However I have no idea on the law in this case seriously, i just don't get it
realeoin
Yeah Thomann are huge and obviously they really don't give a shit either way. Nine times out of ten a transaction will go down without a hitch. But when something does go wrong, their customer service is so poor that it's better not to have bothered with Thomann in the first place.

Thanks for the tip though. But they've made their position clear. They'd rather lose a long time customer over something trivial rather than do the easy thing, help me out and win my loyalty and future spending. Absolutely bizarre.
IR
realeoin wrote:
My guess is that Thomann have both UK and Euro "versions" of Yamaha products (or any manufacturer)

When I place an order and there are no UK versions in stock, rather than ask me if a Euro version is okay they just send it anyways and throw in a cheap plug convertor.

I don't see what the big deal is, I've ordered gear from the UK without even getting an EU plug adapter and I got a standard UK adapter, although I didn't specifically ask for either a Euro adapter or a plug adapter, and it was obvious I was not in the UK from my address.

If you don't specifically ask Thomann I don't see why they would give it to you, and they probably run out of them fast as the U.K. is a big market. It's pretty cool they at least give you the plug.

If you were ordering from the US, chances are very slim they would have anything other than US adapters, and no plug adapters. They might have one or two adapters that were accidentally shipped, and probably not for the piece of gear you wanted.
mckenic
Well US companies don't specifically say they service all of Europe. Ireland/UK have the same type of plug and I think we are the only ones using that variation of 3 pin.

Its also illegal to sell electrical goods without a molded plug for the specific country you are selling to.

Add to that, put 3 or more of these (KB, Amp, fx unit) with 2 prong to 3 prong adapters on a power strip and it becomes excessively bulky, unstable and the connections are not in the slightest snug. Ive had power flicking on/off with my Sherman FB2 and Werkstatt using 'shaver' adapters - one slight bump and everything powers off. Not ideal.
Catmandeux
Is this indicative of a post Brexit future: no UK adaptors supplied with purchases from the EU?
MindMachine
Catmandeux wrote:
Is this indicative of a post Brexit future: no UK adaptors supplied with purchases from the EU?


Wow. If the EU was that organized and synchronized and vindictive we would all be Tinfoil Hat

When I order from the USA through Thomann I just make sure they know I am expecting USA power and they let me know what each unit will be supplied with for power. No issues so far.
h4ndcrafted
Catmandeux wrote:
Is this indicative of a post Brexit future: no UK adaptors supplied with purchases from the EU?


This has been going on for ever seems, least the past 7 years or so. I think with people paying more tax on euro products in the future people will get more pissed about this sort of thing, if anything, and the UK night get stricter on the rules.

I concur Thomann are generally ok, but every now and then , they can be stubborn for some reason. I don't even price check with them anymore as I know they will rarely budge, compared to somebody like Juno that are very flexible. I guess Thomann are in a position where they can call the shots ?

I haven't bought from them for ages though, the conversion for U.K. Is always quite off , I don't find them very competitive for here in the U.K. , which never used to be the case.
realeoin
IR wrote:
realeoin wrote:
My guess is that Thomann have both UK and Euro "versions" of Yamaha products (or any manufacturer)

When I place an order and there are no UK versions in stock, rather than ask me if a Euro version is okay they just send it anyways and throw in a cheap plug convertor.

I don't see what the big deal is, I've ordered gear from the UK without even getting an EU plug adapter and I got a standard UK adapter, although I didn't specifically ask for either a Euro adapter or a plug adapter, and it was obvious I was not in the UK from my address.

If you don't specifically ask Thomann I don't see why they would give it to you, and they probably run out of them fast as the U.K. is a big market. It's pretty cool they at least give you the plug.

If you were ordering from the US, chances are very slim they would have anything other than US adapters, and no plug adapters. They might have one or two adapters that were accidentally shipped, and probably not for the piece of gear you wanted.


It is a big deal. They are selling merchandise to a region without the correct power supply.

Sorry didn't mention it earlier but I did very specifically ask Thomann. When I placed the order I added a note in the "extra comments" section. In it I stated that I wanted the UK version with UK plugs. I also very specifically stated that I did not want EU plugs with cheap plug adapters thrown in for free. This is something I knew they'd try. They've done it to me before.

As far as the US is concerned, I wouldn't be ordering large pieces of gear from there in the first place. I've been stung several times with duty and excise charges. But I wouldn't expect a place as large as the US to accommodate for sales outside their own borders.

Thomann is in the EU. So is Ireland (and Britain too for a short while still). If you plan on selling products to other countries within the EU then you should be properly prepared to do so.

When I log in to Thomann, I log in at an Irish URL (.ie) and similarly if you live in the UK, you log in to a UK URL

So it's not even the fact that they would have to know what power region I was located in by looking at my address, they already know based on how I log in.

They just don't care
zolar_czakl
The Reface DX is now selling for $299 at Sweetwater. I just paid for one brand new from another shop for $287 and I couldn't be happier! I'm just hobbyist who digs synthesis and sound design, and I only want to work with hardware. This gets me into the world of FM synthesis, in hardware, at a low cost
nanners w00t
Rooftree
zolar_czakl wrote:
The Reface DX is now selling for $299 at Sweetwater. I just paid for one brand new from another shop for $287 and I couldn't be happier! I'm just hobbyist who digs synthesis and sound design, and I only want to work with hardware. This gets me into the world of FM synthesis, in hardware, at a low cost
nanners w00t


I love my Reface DX. I picked it up a few months ago for $330 or $300, can't remember which. For me, it was a no brainer at that price. Worth every penny.
DiscoDevil
I now must own the YC as well. *sigh*
drxcm
realeoin wrote:
IR wrote:
realeoin wrote:
My guess is that Thomann have both UK and Euro "versions" of Yamaha products (or any manufacturer)

When I place an order and there are no UK versions in stock, rather than ask me if a Euro version is okay they just send it anyways and throw in a cheap plug convertor.

I don't see what the big deal is, I've ordered gear from the UK without even getting an EU plug adapter and I got a standard UK adapter, although I didn't specifically ask for either a Euro adapter or a plug adapter, and it was obvious I was not in the UK from my address.

If you don't specifically ask Thomann I don't see why they would give it to you, and they probably run out of them fast as the U.K. is a big market. It's pretty cool they at least give you the plug.

If you were ordering from the US, chances are very slim they would have anything other than US adapters, and no plug adapters. They might have one or two adapters that were accidentally shipped, and probably not for the piece of gear you wanted.


It is a big deal

They just don't care


Yup. Their customer service sucks hard when things go wrong. I've been mucked around by them on my last two orders and will never use them again as a result.

However they have offered you a refund so why not just send it back and order one locally?

I got my Reface CP from them over a year ago with the wrong plug too. I just use an adapter. Wish I could find the correct part for it though. If anyone has an AU plug they wanna swap let me know!
numan7
MY ASS IS BLEEDING i just have to say that the reface cp and yc are some of the most soulful sounding instruments ever made, in my opinion. they have rekindled my perverse love for the yamaha corporation's musical instrument division, in some ways at least... the wurlitzer and cp models, in particular, just shine with yamaha perfectionism (as does every single setting on the yc) - so beautiful and amazing! we're not worthy

Play Him Off, Keyboard Cat. and i have adapted to the mini-keys... i adjust my piano-playing technique towards what i remember from playing woodwind instruments (years and years ago - but still mostly intact) - so that you can glissando like mad and play demi-semi
-quaver two-octave arrpeggios without needing to shift your wrists very much. pure chromatic runs can be a bit challenging to get right, compared to full-size keys, but can be accomodated for with a bit of extra finger loft upon key releases i find.


cheers
drxcm
Completely agree with the above post. The CP is such a wonderful instrument to play- very intuitive and everything is a sweet spot.

I just picked up a Mellotron M4000D mini and having similar vibes.

Wish there was a guitar pedal or effects box just like the Reface CP effects section - ahame there isn’t an external input as it’s voicing is just perfect for my needs
bmot
sophiajoseph wrote:
Hello

I am professional assignment writer in Cheap Assignment Help in Australia


And what sort of assignments do you specialize in - illiterate studies perhaps?

Regarding the Reface, I tried out all 4 when they were released, I loved them all but didn’t buy any. Sounds almost as dumb as sophiajoseph‘s „advert“ above, but it was the price that stopped me, because I was most interested in the YC. I hunted around a bit and bought a mint YC45D (the „Cadillac“ of organs, so they say) for quite a lot cheaper than a Reface. But guess where that’s sitting now? It’s been ordered to the attic, it’s too goddamn big and heavy! Now I see the sense in these tiny keys, restarting this thread is making me think about them again. However I’d be more interested in the DX or CS these days, and the price has come right down so that reason has evaporated. Once again, I’m tempted!
sutekina bipu-on
sophiajoseph Report the bots!!!!! angry

I tried all the refaces when they came out and am actually kind of surprised i still dont have one, i should get the CP or YC.

They had a minilogue right next to the refaces and always had it in my mind i wanted the refaces more though they did less.

I think now that it's back in my mind, i really should pick up a YC instead of fawning over ancient Roland organs when they show up on reverb or ebay.

edit: oh yeah, theyre a little $$$, not the end of the world but theyd sell more if they were less than a boutique i guess?
sackley
I've finally started buckling down and learning some keys (just simple classical songs for now). Using a CP midi'd by a Keystation 61 run through a cheap guitar practice amp (like a poor mans EP zombie ). Gets the job done, and it's nice not having to think about much maintenance. Sounds good to me, and is inspiring enough to continue plugging along.
Scories
drxcm wrote:
Completely agree with the above post. The CP is such a wonderful instrument to play- very intuitive and everything is a sweet spot.

I just picked up a Mellotron M4000D mini and having similar vibes.

Wish there was a guitar pedal or effects box just like the Reface CP effects section - ahame there isn’t an external input as it’s voicing is just perfect for my needs


This post makes me realize how nice it would be if Yamaha could implement an update on the CP, with an hidden Mellotron soundbank : strings, flute, choir, vibraphone...
rauch
Scories wrote:
drxcm wrote:
Completely agree with the above post. The CP is such a wonderful instrument to play- very intuitive and everything is a sweet spot.

I just picked up a Mellotron M4000D mini and having similar vibes.

Wish there was a guitar pedal or effects box just like the Reface CP effects section - ahame there isn’t an external input as it’s voicing is just perfect for my needs


This post makes me realize how nice it would be if Yamaha could implement an update on the CP, with an hidden Mellotron soundbank : strings, flute, choir, vibraphone...


a reface mt would be awesome but it would take a LOT of ram to provide all the great instruments made for the mellotron. an sd card slot to load samples would be nice.
rauch
i really like the cp and i'm looking into the yc now. any reasons i shouldn't get one? is something like a nord any better for authentic 60/70s sounds?
Blairio
rauch wrote:
i really like the cp and i'm looking into the yc now. any reasons i shouldn't get one? is something like a nord any better for authentic 60/70s sounds?


Completely different price points and instruments. Short answer is yes, but a Nord Electro is several times the price of a Reface YC, For that though you get acoustic & electric pianos, clavinets, organs (console and tone wheel), and an amazing sample library of orchestral and other sounds. You also get a full size keyboard.

Mind you if you are considering buying a couple of Reface's - say the piano one and the organ one - I think you are into the price territory of an earlier second hand Nord Electro 61 note.

I wouldn't go earlier than an Electro 3 though. I have a 3 and a 5, both are great. The 3 misses the fancy display and keyboard split & layering capability of the later Electro's, but the sound is there,
JimY
I think Yamaha chickened out a bit with the YC.
It's been a pretty boring time for organ simulators, with the same old Hammond/Vox/Farfisa choices and the Hammond always taking the headline position. More often than not, touted for it's Jazz organ chops. I don't know about anyone else here, but Jazz organ sends me from the room screaming!

So I was disappointed that it was really only the YC voicing that was included in an interface built around supporting the usual Hammond simulation. Some of Yamaha's had some cool extra tricks - like the pitch ribbon. That ribbon runs across behind the keys and was setup so if you touch the ribbon behind A4, it sounds A4 but of course, let you do glides between any of pitches.
Maybe you've heard the studio recording of Steely Dan's "Do it again"? The pitch swooping organ solo is a YC organ that happened to be in the studio. They didn't play that solo live because they didn't tour with it.
Why hasn't the Reface YC got that?

One welcome thing is the use of rocker switch tabs instead of momentary buttons. That was one of the nice things on the old transistor organs - all those big coloured switches looked cool and it was obvious what they did and you didn't need to check displays to see how they are set - and no need, ever, to RTFM.
rauch
Blairio wrote:
For that though you get acoustic & electric pianos, clavinets, organs (console and tone wheel), and an amazing sample library of orchestral and other sounds. You also get a full size keyboard.

Mind you if you are considering buying a couple of Reface's - say the piano one and the organ one - I think you are into the price territory of an earlier second hand Nord Electro 61 note.


you're right. probably a better idea to sell the cp and get a nord instead. also less cables.

i just like those yc rocker switches so much smile
Scories
rauch wrote:
Scories wrote:
drxcm wrote:
Completely agree with the above post. The CP is such a wonderful instrument to play- very intuitive and everything is a sweet spot.

I just picked up a Mellotron M4000D mini and having similar vibes.

Wish there was a guitar pedal or effects box just like the Reface CP effects section - ahame there isn’t an external input as it’s voicing is just perfect for my needs


This post makes me realize how nice it would be if Yamaha could implement an update on the CP, with an hidden Mellotron soundbank : strings, flute, choir, vibraphone...


a reface mt would be awesome but it would take a LOT of ram to provide all the great instruments made for the mellotron. an sd card slot to load samples would be nice.


I would not ask for a fully extended instrument collection. Just the five or six basic sounds would be sweet already.
Northward
I’ve been thinking about getting the CS from pretty much day one. It’s nice sounds,size and immediate switch on and play is appealing. So what’s holding me back? I first though it was pricey with all these silly decisions they did with memory annoyingly in the cloud only. No arp, sequencer and other weak spots like that useless looper. It just seems kinda half baked.t But as I want a portable keyboard it’s tempting vs a soundless Keystep.

So I’ve been hoping for a mark II.. actually on both units mentioned above. But, no sign of neither. Yamaha gives me the impression of a huge oil tanker needing ages to make a little turn. What do you think.. have they left the Reface line?

I’m pretty confident Arturia will update the Keystep. But God knows when with all those never ending software fixes and upgrades. A lot of functionality in a small package, but also a lot of flaws it seems.

NI just released a nice keyboard in this segment, but without midi: absolutely instant No-Go. (the ignorance..)

Does anyone use their Reface both songwriting and noodling on it’s own and producing -with other synths and soft synths in the DAW?
I wonder if this runs smoothly.
j bowman
rauch wrote:
i really like the cp and i'm looking into the yc now. any reasons i shouldn't get one? is something like a nord any better for authentic 60/70s sounds?


Reface YC is one of my favorite instruments. I have them all except the DX, and the YC is best IMO, although I do like the CS and CP also.

Sure it has a few minor deficiencies, but as an ex-organist, seeing an instrument that has much of the feel and functionality of a "proper" organ but which is light enough to lift up and carry around between my thumb and forefinger is mind-blowing awesome to me and outweighs pretty much every other consideration. It generally sits by my couch loaded with rechargeable AAs and headphone jack, but I play it in the garden, on the kitchen table, take it on holiday with me, camping, to the beach etc. etc. Finally I understand how guitarists feel about their instruments!

Comparing it specifically to the CP (which also has excellent sounds) I think the speakers in the YC work a bit better - my CP has an annoying buzz for even moderately loud sounds in the mid-range. It seems to be a commonan problem for that particular model.

Also, although they all presumably have the same keybed, the YC to me feels better to play. There's not much in it, but possibly the casing is just a bit more stable. The latency seems really low, especially on the percussion sounds, really snappy and responsive, just seems a bit quicker than the other two can get.

Possibly the Nord or other instruments will get you more realistic organ sounds. The drawbars are set up for Hammond, so I think some of the registrations you can play on the Reface are not possible on an old Farfisa or Vox.

Enough gushing. The bad points: The rockers are nice, but I've had to send two YCs back to Yamaha with broken rockers in a two year period, and I don't think I'm hitting them hard! The reverb and distortion are excellent, the rotary is good but could be better (more customisable for a start), but the vibrato/chorus seems a bit of an afterthought - there's barely any difference between the two settings, which is a wasted opportunity. Despite that, if this one breaks I'll buy another in a heartbeat, it sounds beautiful, looks beautiful, feels beautiful.
MindMachine
Scories wrote:
drxcm wrote:
Completely agree with the above post. The CP is such a wonderful instrument to play- very intuitive and everything is a sweet spot.

I just picked up a Mellotron M4000D mini and having similar vibes.

Wish there was a guitar pedal or effects box just like the Reface CP effects section - ahame there isn’t an external input as it’s voicing is just perfect for my needs


This post makes me realize how nice it would be if Yamaha could implement an update on the CP, with an hidden Mellotron soundbank : strings, flute, choir, vibraphone...


I play my YC Reface and CP Reface through an EH Mel9 pedal and it is sweet.

Northward wrote:
No arp, sequencer and other weak spots like that useless looper. It just seems kinda half baked.t But as I want a portable keyboard it’s tempting vs a soundless Keystep.


The looper is far from useless. Also, it has keys. play them instead of relying on the non-existent sequencer and arpeggiator.

j bowman wrote:

Reface YC is one of my favorite instruments. I have them all except the DX, and the YC is best IMO, although I do like the CS and CP also.



I have these same three. I am not much of a keybord player at all, but the YC gets me into early Klaus Schulze sound, the CP is pretty organic for a tiny digital keyboard and the CS is my only 'polyphonic' since I am mostly into modular synths and loopers.

I think these instruments are a great value and offer great sounds with decent effects. I use them with graphic eq's, Zvex Lo Fi, EH Mel9, EH Analogizer (and a few other pedals on occasion) pedals and they fit in small spaces. I have them on these office desk shelves that alloy other gear to be placed under them and a pedal next to them on the shelf:

https://www.target.com/p/rolodex-153-wire-mesh-off-surface-shelf-26-x- 7-x-7-black/-/A-16903545?ref=tgt_adv_XS000000&AFID=google_pla_df&fndsr c=tgtao&CPNG=PLA_Storage%2BOrganization%2BShopping&adgroup=SC_Storage% 2BOrganization&LID=700000001170770pgs&network=g&device=c&location=9031 632&ds_rl=1246978&ds_rl=1247068&ds_rl=1246978&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzbG5z7 mD4gIVIB6tBh0YqQFwEAQYASABEgKQMPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Scories
MindMachine wrote:
I play my YC Reface and CP Reface through an EH Mel9 pedal and it is sweet.


I thought this pedal was mostly interesting for guitar players. Seems like a sweet option. Though I would have prefered vibraphone over saxophone. smile
About Reface, I'm still hesitating between a DX and a CP...
MindMachine
Scories wrote:
MindMachine wrote:
I play my YC Reface and CP Reface through an EH Mel9 pedal and it is sweet.


I thought this pedal was mostly interesting for guitar players. Seems like a sweet option. Though I would have prefered vibraphone over saxophone. smile
About Reface, I'm still hesitating between a DX and a CP...



Yeah the sax voice is an odd one. Not so saxy. The Mel9 has a limited range, but that actually works well with the Reface keyboards. They go used for $150. That is a great deal. All of the string and voice presets are money to me. The wind and brass are okay.
Scories
MindMachine wrote:
Scories wrote:
MindMachine wrote:
I play my YC Reface and CP Reface through an EH Mel9 pedal and it is sweet.


I thought this pedal was mostly interesting for guitar players. Seems like a sweet option. Though I would have prefered vibraphone over saxophone. smile
About Reface, I'm still hesitating between a DX and a CP...



Yeah the sax voice is an odd one. Not so saxy. The Mel9 has a limited range, but that actually works well with the Reface keyboards. They go used for $150. That is a great deal. All of the string and voice presets are money to me. The wind and brass are okay.


Thanks ! thumbs up
...but what about that lovely flute sound?

Back to the Reface models; I think they might be the best options around for midi controllers with small keys and polyphonic synth engines... I haven't found anything else yet.
Rex Coil 7
.... all metal construction .....














Scories
Got myself a DX. I'm quite surprised how warm and mellow this thing sounds. And when it gets noisy, there's still something nearly acoustic going on (but not on the harsh side). Overall, it's a nice flexible synth that makes a nice crossover between analog and digital.
thevegasnerve
Scories wrote:
Got myself a DX. I'm quite surprised how warm and mellow this thing sounds. And when it gets noisy, there's still something nearly acoustic going on (but not on the harsh side). Overall, it's a nice flexible synth that makes a nice crossover between analog and digital.


Have a DX coming shortly, am excited to explore some FM synthesis in an easy to use form factor. Also picked up an EHX Micro Pog to possibly pair with it. Glad the prices finally came down on the Refaces..
1986Bowler
I thought about the DX- tried it in the store- I think I found a few presets that made me happy- just not enough to pull the trigger on it.

The CS intrigues me, and it could be fun for now, but when there's Deckard's dream, and even Behringer's BS80 (phrasing, anyone?) and even Arturia's take on it, then I wonder if it's worth the price even if it is very reasonable compared to other options.
thevegasnerve
1986Bowler wrote:
I thought about the DX- tried it in the store- I think I found a few presets that made me happy- just not enough to pull the trigger on it.

The CS intrigues me, and it could be fun for now, but when there's Deckard's dream, and even Behringer's BS80 (phrasing, anyone?) and even Arturia's take on it, then I wonder if it's worth the price even if it is very reasonable compared to other options.


I think that's a valid point and I guess it really comes down to what you need to write/perform music. I have a suspicion that the form factor of the Refaces is really going to appeal to me. Sort of like a really awesome guitar pedal, but not necessarily as deep as most synths.. But again, the price needs to be reasonable (under $300) for me to get serious given other options.. I was going to get the CS first, but unknowingly ordered the DX by accident. Now I am glad I did as I actually think the DX will offer something I don't really have at the moment.
thevegasnerve
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
.... all metal construction .....












I may consider this down the road if the iPad apps don't work for me.. Just looks like such a cool little setup for the DX.
12eightyfive
1986Bowler wrote:
I thought about the DX- tried it in the store- I think I found a few presets that made me happy- just not enough to pull the trigger on it.

The CS intrigues me, and it could be fun for now, but when there's Deckard's dream, and even Behringer's BS80 (phrasing, anyone?) and even Arturia's take on it, then I wonder if it's worth the price even if it is very reasonable compared to other options.


Re: the DX, the presets are pretty plain (aside from the obnoxious car alarm ones) I am writing over almost all of them. The electric piano ones are a good starting point for more velocity-sensitive patches. I find a lot of satisfaction in initializing patches and building up from there.

Re: CS my main hesitation has been the lack of ability to save a preset. A cool design and I have a few friends that swear by its portability and flexibility, and I'm sure a clever user out there has figured out a quick way to use soundmondo and/or the iPhone app for quick changes but that adds too much fiddling and complexity for me. How long is Yamaha actually going to maintain soundmondo anyway?
thevegasnerve
12eightyfive wrote:
1986Bowler wrote:
I thought about the DX- tried it in the store- I think I found a few presets that made me happy- just not enough to pull the trigger on it.

The CS intrigues me, and it could be fun for now, but when there's Deckard's dream, and even Behringer's BS80 (phrasing, anyone?) and even Arturia's take on it, then I wonder if it's worth the price even if it is very reasonable compared to other options.


Re: the DX, the presets are pretty plain (aside from the obnoxious car alarm ones) I am writing over almost all of them. The electric piano ones are a good starting point for more velocity-sensitive patches. I find a lot of satisfaction in initializing patches and building up from there.

Re: CS my main hesitation has been the lack of ability to save a preset. A cool design and I have a few friends that swear by its portability and flexibility, and I'm sure a clever user out there has figured out a quick way to use soundmondo and/or the iPhone app for quick changes but that adds too much fiddling and complexity for me. How long is Yamaha actually going to maintain soundmondo anyway?


yeah, I plan to overwrite most of the presets on the DX, have listened to some online and they are certainly not useful to me.... maybe even see what others have created, might be better starting off points.. I like it as a possible pad machine. i have doubts about soundmondo too. 32 presets is not a lot for that type of synth.. monosynth maybe.
gruebleengourd
12eightyfive wrote:

Re: CS my main hesitation has been the lack of ability to save a preset.


FYI You can save presets on the CS using regular sysex dumps. No need for soundmondo. I use midi ox.

The CS is kinda a neat little digital subtractive for quick fun -- but the DX is far better overall IMO. CC control over FM parameters and feedback for every operator :-)
Blairio
thevegasnerve wrote:
12eightyfive wrote:
1986Bowler wrote:
I thought about the DX- tried it in the store- I think I found a few presets that made me happy- just not enough to pull the trigger on it.

The CS intrigues me, and it could be fun for now, but when there's Deckard's dream, and even Behringer's BS80 (phrasing, anyone?) and even Arturia's take on it, then I wonder if it's worth the price even if it is very reasonable compared to other options.


Re: the DX, the presets are pretty plain (aside from the obnoxious car alarm ones) I am writing over almost all of them. The electric piano ones are a good starting point for more velocity-sensitive patches. I find a lot of satisfaction in initializing patches and building up from there.

Re: CS my main hesitation has been the lack of ability to save a preset. A cool design and I have a few friends that swear by its portability and flexibility, and I'm sure a clever user out there has figured out a quick way to use soundmondo and/or the iPhone app for quick changes but that adds too much fiddling and complexity for me. How long is Yamaha actually going to maintain soundmondo anyway?


yeah, I plan to overwrite most of the presets on the DX, have listened to some online and they are certainly not useful to me.... maybe even see what others have created, might be better starting off points.. I like it as a possible pad machine. i have doubts about soundmondo too. 32 presets is not a lot for that type of synth.. monosynth maybe.


With the DX Legacy project:

http://refacedx.martintarenskeen.nl

... and SoundMondo, you have access to 100's of 4 operator patches which have been made compatible with the Reface DX. There are a lot to work through, but it is worth spending the time. The Reface DX is capable of great leads, bass's, pads, textures, acoustic instrument simulations, percussion, crazy soundscape stuff ......

I have owned and used DX7's and DX5's. Listening back to recordings of them my Reface DX sounds cleaner than both - though it lacks the sonic complexity of the 6 operator architecture. It has already been suggested but it bears repeating: If Yamaha were to revisit the DX7 using the Reface DX's sound engine and interface (but with 6 operators instead of 4), they would have a killer FM synth on their hands.
scanningthemirror
I definitely want to get the YC so I can use it with VCV Rack and some pedals. The CP sounds great too.

If anyone has done any cool recordings of the YC combined with some pedals or modules I'd definitely love to hear them thumbs up
starthief
I feel like the CS is simple enough it doesn't need presets.

It's main downside to me is the really steppy controls. Trying to tune the filter resonance just right, or even more so, the ringmod mode, would have benefited a lot from more precision.

Also I kinda wish the FM mode didn't add white noise with the ratio slider, but maybe the very top end of the index slider.

Still, it's kind of a cozy and fun keyboard and pretty great for a few useful classic sounds (and a few more unusual ones).
thevegasnerve
Blairio wrote:
thevegasnerve wrote:
12eightyfive wrote:
1986Bowler wrote:
I thought about the DX- tried it in the store- I think I found a few presets that made me happy- just not enough to pull the trigger on it.

The CS intrigues me, and it could be fun for now, but when there's Deckard's dream, and even Behringer's BS80 (phrasing, anyone?) and even Arturia's take on it, then I wonder if it's worth the price even if it is very reasonable compared to other options.


Re: the DX, the presets are pretty plain (aside from the obnoxious car alarm ones) I am writing over almost all of them. The electric piano ones are a good starting point for more velocity-sensitive patches. I find a lot of satisfaction in initializing patches and building up from there.

Re: CS my main hesitation has been the lack of ability to save a preset. A cool design and I have a few friends that swear by its portability and flexibility, and I'm sure a clever user out there has figured out a quick way to use soundmondo and/or the iPhone app for quick changes but that adds too much fiddling and complexity for me. How long is Yamaha actually going to maintain soundmondo anyway?


yeah, I plan to overwrite most of the presets on the DX, have listened to some online and they are certainly not useful to me.... maybe even see what others have created, might be better starting off points.. I like it as a possible pad machine. i have doubts about soundmondo too. 32 presets is not a lot for that type of synth.. monosynth maybe.


With the DX Legacy project:

http://refacedx.martintarenskeen.nl

... and SoundMondo, you have access to 100's of 4 operator patches which have been made compatible with the Reface DX. There are a lot to work through, but it is worth spending the time. The Reface DX is capable of great leads, bass's, pads, textures, acoustic instrument simulations, percussion, crazy soundscape stuff ......

I have owned and used DX7's and DX5's. Listening back to recordings of them my Reface DX sounds cleaner than both - though it lacks the sonic complexity of the 6 operator architecture. It has already been suggested but it bears repeating: If Yamaha were to revisit the DX7 using the Reface DX's sound engine and interface (but with 6 operators instead of 4), they would have a killer FM synth on their hands.


Thanks for sharing the DX Legacy info, very cool. Of course I just realized my DX isn’t shipping til July now.. Must be selling well..
starthief
Has anyone else found the Reface CS (or others possibly) has a pretty high noise floor? And does that improve by powering it with batteries rather than an AC adapter?

I had noticed it in recordings before, but now that I have paired it with an Elektron Analog Drive the noise is really prominent, especially with higher gain settings. (It does sound a lot beefier with the AD though!)

Trying to decide if I should invest in some more rechargeable batteries or a noise gate pedal.
steffengrondahl
starthief wrote:
Has anyone else found the Reface CS (or others possibly) has a pretty high noise floor? And does that improve by powering it with batteries rather than an AC adapter?


I had a CS a few years ago (or was it last year hmmm..... ). AFAIR it wasn't particular noisy, however I turned the speakers off, so this might have helped. Didn't use batteries and doubt it will improve noise.
Jason Brock
starthief wrote:
Has anyone else found the Reface CS (or others possibly) has a pretty high noise floor?


Do you have the USB connector plugged in to something? If so, try unplugging it from the CS and see if the noise goes away. If that is the cause, you can buy a USB isolator like this to connect to the computer end of things. Works for me on all my USB synths.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XXPO4UG/
starthief
steffengrondahl wrote:
AFAIR it wasn't particular noisy, however I turned the speakers off, so this might have helped.


I turned off the built-in speaker first thing, along with some other settings.

Jason Brock wrote:
Do you have the USB connector plugged in to something?


Yeah, I'm using it for MIDI. That's a good possibility, I'll look into that. thumbs up
starthief
Unplugging USB makes a massive difference in noise level. Thanks for the tip thumbs up
MindMachine
gruebleengourd wrote:
12eightyfive wrote:

Re: CS my main hesitation has been the lack of ability to save a preset.


FYI You can save presets on the CS using regular sysex dumps. No need for soundmondo. I use midi ox.

The CS is kinda a neat little digital subtractive for quick fun -- but the DX is far better overall IMO. CC control over FM parameters and feedback for every operator :-)


For the price buy two or three used and there are your presets. hihi It is an insanely versatile unit. What makes me a little impatient is the short throw of the sliders. With slider patience there is a metric tonne of sound. I get a really good analog string emulation and it also can do leads and effects, not just pads and leads. I 70% of the time use it with an effect pedal or two to add more variation.
Blairio
starthief wrote:
Unplugging USB makes a massive difference in noise level. Thanks for the tip thumbs up


USB sucks for midi. I have had so many noise issues with USB-midi, that I gave up on it . If a device needs USB power, I'll connect it to a clean dedicated USB power source.

Otherwise, I just use USB for firmware updates, backups and the like for my 7 digital architecture synths.

Dedicated lean USB power sources are not expensive. Some decent mobile phone chargers will do the trick, but some dedicated mobile phone chargers are horribly noisy.
Blairio
MindMachine wrote:
gruebleengourd wrote:
12eightyfive wrote:

Re: CS my main hesitation has been the lack of ability to save a preset.


FYI You can save presets on the CS using regular sysex dumps. No need for soundmondo. I use midi ox.

The CS is kinda a neat little digital subtractive for quick fun -- but the DX is far better overall IMO. CC control over FM parameters and feedback for every operator :-)


For the price buy two or three used and there are your presets. hihi It is an insanely versatile unit. What makes me a little impatient is the short throw of the sliders. With slider patience there is a metric tonne of sound. I get a really good analog string emulation and it also can do leads and effects, not just pads and leads. I 70% of the time use it with an effect pedal or two to add more variation.


If you have a controller keyboard with full length faders, could you map the reface CS's fader driven parameters onto those?
MindMachine
Blairio wrote:
MindMachine wrote:
gruebleengourd wrote:
12eightyfive wrote:

Re: CS my main hesitation has been the lack of ability to save a preset.


FYI You can save presets on the CS using regular sysex dumps. No need for soundmondo. I use midi ox.

The CS is kinda a neat little digital subtractive for quick fun -- but the DX is far better overall IMO. CC control over FM parameters and feedback for every operator :-)


For the price buy two or three used and there are your presets. hihi It is an insanely versatile unit. What makes me a little impatient is the short throw of the sliders. With slider patience there is a metric tonne of sound. I get a really good analog string emulation and it also can do leads and effects, not just pads and leads. I 70% of the time use it with an effect pedal or two to add more variation.


If you have a controller keyboard with full length faders, could you map the reface CS's fader driven parameters onto those?


Excellent solution, but no only CV keys at this time. I'll try more patience. I have three Refaces and love them to death.

ps - recommend these stationery racks for them. Fits one Reface and two pedals with space underneath for more gizmos:



https://www.target.com/p/rolodex-153-wire-mesh-off-surface-shelf-26-x- 7-x-7-black/-/A-16903545?ref=tgt_adv_XS000000&AFID=google_pla_df&fndsr c=tgtao&CPNG=PLA_Storage%2BOrganization%2BShopping&adgroup=SC_Storage% 2BOrganization&LID=700000001170770pgs&network=g&device=c&location=9031 632&ds_rl=1246978&ds_rl=1247068&ds_rl=1246978&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI26i05a GQ4wIVif5kCh0nSAhWEAQYASABEgJgufD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
francoprussian
Has anyone who owns a Reface DX had an occasion where they turned it on as usual and then the screen says factory reset and you lose all your patches and system settings? Cos that's what happened to me tonight.

Maybe not so keen on this thing now if it keeps losing its mind randomly...
Blairio
francoprussian wrote:
Has anyone who owns a Reface DX had an occasion where they turned it on as usual and then the screen says factory reset and you lose all your patches and system settings? Cos that's what happened to me tonight.

Maybe not so keen on this thing now if it keeps losing its mind randomly...


I have had my Reface DX for 6 months now, and it has behaved perfectly,

I have even upgraded to the latest firmware (v1.30) without problems.

This sounds like an issue with your unit. Yamaha are usually pretty good at supporting their customers, so I am sure you'll get it sorted,
Sounds From The Shed
I think I'd like to try one of these out, I played about with ine a Synthfest last year but only for a short time, but for the price it might be worth giving one a go.
thevegasnerve
Really enjoying my Reface DX. Sounds great and the looper is really cool. Most amazing part is that the mini-keys are not bothering me as I am using it for basses and leads mostly. The keys do have a nice feel to them.
Blairio
thevegasnerve wrote:
Really enjoying my Reface DX. Sounds great and the looper is really cool. Most amazing part is that the mini-keys are not bothering me as I am using it for basses and leads mostly. The keys do have a nice feel to them.


Likewise. It is a quality piece of kit and a bargain for what they are going for at the moment. If Yamaha ever decided to put out a new DX7 based on a 6 operator version of this with a full size keyboard and an enhanced user interface (a few more dedicated controls), I would be so tempted.
sleepmute
Also loving my DX here. The only thing I wish it could do was assign the LFO or an envelope to the feedback. As it is, I have to change it by hand, which can be finicky.

If I could figure out a way to connect my NanoKontrol to the DX, that might solve my problem, but the NanoKontrol only has USB out.
francoprussian
sleepmute wrote:
If I could figure out a way to connect my NanoKontrol to the DX, that might solve my problem, but the NanoKontrol only has USB out.


http://kentonuk.com/product/midi-usb-host-mkii/

https://www.thomann.de/gb/miditech_usb_midi_host.htm

Plenty of people making little boxes to do just that. Surprising MIDI Solutions aren't in on the game yet.

Can also be done with an Arduino and a couple of shields or totally DIY if you're into that lark.
sleepmute
I’ve seen those before, but I wasn’t sure how you actually assign your controller to do specific things. I wanna be able to use the NanoKontrol primarily for feedback. I’ll look into it!
francoprussian
The reface DX has CC numbers for the parameters. Set the nanokontrol to output those CCs on its dials and sliders via the software editor. Plug it in, and off you go.
Man-In-A-Suitcase
j bowman wrote:
The reverb and distortion are excellent, the rotary is good but could be better (more customisable for a start), but the vibrato/chorus seems a bit of an afterthought - there's barely any difference between the two settings, which is a wasted opportunity. Despite that, if this one breaks I'll buy another in a heartbeat, it sounds beautiful, looks beautiful, feels beautiful.

I would have loved a repeater function that the old Farfisa Compact Duo's or VIP's had as a feature on the YC. Combining the Tremelo and the Repeater can make for some great organ effects. I do believe the YC45D had a similar effect.
j bowman
Man-In-A-Suitcase wrote:
j bowman wrote:
The reverb and distortion are excellent, the rotary is good but could be better (more customisable for a start), but the vibrato/chorus seems a bit of an afterthought - there's barely any difference between the two settings, which is a wasted opportunity. Despite that, if this one breaks I'll buy another in a heartbeat, it sounds beautiful, looks beautiful, feels beautiful.

I would have loved a repeater function that the old Farfisa Compact Duo's or VIP's had as a feature on the YC. Combining the Tremelo and the Repeater can make for some great organ effects. I do believe the YC45D had a similar effect.


That would be awesome as well! I think a mk 2 of the Reface YC could be really great - I love this thing as it is, but a few tweaks would put it in another league.

Mind you, I'd love Yamaha to bring out an updated YC - shame the combo organs haven't really benefited from the analogue revival...
thevegasnerve
francoprussian wrote:
The reface DX has CC numbers for the parameters. Set the nanokontrol to output those CCs on its dials and sliders via the software editor. Plug it in, and off you go.


I have a nanokontrol sitting around also, thanks for tips on possibly using as an extra controller..
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