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STS Serge Dual ADSR - Anything Special?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Buchla, EMS & Serge  
Author STS Serge Dual ADSR - Anything Special?
Gringo Starr
As we all know STS Serge modules are not cheap. With cheaper Serge options out there it's getting tougher to make decisions. However I do have 100% faith in build quality and customer service from STS. So this leads me to my question. And please keep this threads focus on ADSR's.

What are your opinions of the STS Serge envelopes? Are they super snappy? Any characteristics that separate them from other ADSR's you've used?


Edit: have any of you used the Random Source ADSR's yet?
3001
I like mine! at first I thought it was kind of lame, traditional shit in serge, but I find uses for it, it adds a really cool sweeps I don't seem to be able to get elsewhere within the serge. I have to say waht sucks is it's not like other sts where you can audiorate everything, or at least I can't seem to, at audio rate it just blehs out.. Shall I maketh some patcheth for you?
wavecircle
I remember being underwhelmed by them on my first serge system, they just aren't very "serge" if that makes sense. They seemed to lack the multi functionality we all love about serge designs. I think I am going to go modcan for traditional modules to pair with the serge. Bruce's stuff has some great tricks.
3001
wavecircle wrote:
I remember being underwhelmed by them on my first serge system, they just aren't very "serge" if that makes sense. They seemed to lack the multi functionality we all love about serge designs. I think I am going to go modcan for traditional modules to pair with the serge. Bruce's stuff has some great tricks.


I tried this, but the form of the modcan a made ergonomics quite difficult! if you go this way, make sure to get a bunch of long cables, and color code!! Modcan A is weird, like 5u with bananas. I don't know if 5u needs bananas sometimes...
Navs
3001 wrote:
I have to say waht sucks is it's not like other sts where you can audiorate everything, or at least I can't seem to, at audio rate it just blehs out.


Is that the design or just because it's an ADSR? I'm not familiar with the circuit, but most traditional ADSRs don't offer any particular tricks at audio rate because they are gated rather than triggered.
Gringo Starr
I have some Modcan ADSR's. I was hoping to get rid of them as I would prefer to keep things in one single system.
3001
Navs wrote:
3001 wrote:
I have to say waht sucks is it's not like other sts where you can audiorate everything, or at least I can't seem to, at audio rate it just blehs out.


Is that the design or just because it's an ADSR? I'm not familiar with the circuit, but most traditional ADSRs don't offer any particular tricks at audio rate because they are gated rather than triggered.


most things in serge you can feedback into themselves and create more things. almost everything in fact. audiorate sequencers, audiorate everything. I would love if the envelopes would loop, that would be fantastic. a slope generator has multiple envelopes would be sweet...
ear ear
Navs wrote:
3001 wrote:
I have to say waht sucks is it's not like other sts where you can audiorate everything, or at least I can't seem to, at audio rate it just blehs out.


Is that the design or just because it's an ADSR? I'm not familiar with the circuit, but most traditional ADSRs don't offer any particular tricks at audio rate because they are gated rather than triggered.


The Serge ADSR can be gated or triggered. See here. It's got a delay CV and overall envelope length CV. As ADSRs go, this one is pretty cool, no?
phisynth
you can also make them loop and use them as a *kind of* oscillator (at shorter settings) by patching a comparator between the output and the gate in
djangosfire
phisynth wrote:
you can also make them loop and use them as a *kind of* oscillator (at shorter settings) by patching a comparator between the output and the gate in


Whoa! Great idea applause Love tips like this..... I'll go test right now.... SlayerBadger!
regenbot
Gringo Starr wrote:


Edit: have any of you used the Random Source ADSR's yet?


Yes, I built one some time ago. I find them to be really useful. I'm quite new to the serge thing and only have experience with random source and cgs offerings, so can't really compare. thumbs up

Here's a little patch i made using those and Random source VCFQ. One envelope is opening the vca, other modulating the vcfq. It's peanut butter jelly time!

[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/212239245" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_use r=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]
confusional
regenbot wrote:

Here's a little patch i made using those and Random source VCFQ. One envelope is opening the vca, other modulating the vcfq. It's peanut butter jelly time!

[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/212239245" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_use r=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]


Hey, thanks for sharing this. I really dig it. nanners
regenbot
Glad you liked it. Might be worth noting that i built mine with 10 V/oct cv response.

confusional wrote:


Hey, thanks for sharing this. I really dig it. nanners
richard
...which is surely a better idea than the Serge/STS stock 5v, which seems more designed for 1volt per octave system consistency (which makes zero sense to me for timing modulations) than actual function
ear ear
richard wrote:
...which is surely a better idea than the Serge/STS stock 5v, which seems more designed for 1volt per octave system consistency (which makes zero sense to me for timing modulations) than actual function


Not being much into envelopes (yet?), this rather goes over my head:

What does 1V/Oct mean in the context of VCing the stage lengths of an ADSR? I'm assuming it means that the length of the envelope will match the length of the waveform of the audio signal it is applied to -- but that's more a consideration with the VC All input, is it not?

Why is a 10 V/Oct range on these CV inputs better than 5V? Most CVs in the Serge world are 5V, no? Where are you going to get your 10V CVs from? For the stage CV inputs you just want them to be sensitive enough to the 0-5V range to give you the range of stage lengths you require, surely?

hmmm.....
regenbot
I wrote rather confusingly, sorry. It means that if you apply 5V you get 10 octave change instead of 5 octave. So it uses 0-5V range.

here's a quote from the random source site.

Quote:
A master 1V/OCT inout allows to control all slope times for effects such as decreasing the entire envelope time as the pitch of an associated oscillator increases - a phenomenon is typical of many acoustic instruments.


ear ear wrote:
richard wrote:
...which is surely a better idea than the Serge/STS stock 5v, which seems more designed for 1volt per octave system consistency (which makes zero sense to me for timing modulations) than actual function


Not being much into envelopes (yet?), this rather goes over my head:

What does 1V/Oct mean in the context of VCing the stage lengths of an ADSR? I'm assuming it means that the length of the envelope will match the length of the waveform of the audio signal it is applied to -- but that's more a consideration with the VC All input, is it not?

Why is a 10 V/Oct range on these CV inputs better than 5V? Most CVs in the Serge world are 5V, no? Where are you going to get your 10V CVs from? For the stage CV inputs you just want them to be sensitive enough to the 0-5V range to give you the range of stage lengths you require, surely?

hmmm.....
Isaiah
I believe the idea behind the Serge ADSR's VC All, or 1V/Oct input is that it helps to better synthesise acoustic sounds.
Think of a guitar, higher notes tend to decay quickly, while lower notes take a bit longer to decay.
I might be wrong but I think the Roland Jupiter 6 also had this functionality.

Seems that some versions of the ADSR (STS?) are set up to respond inversely, such that applying a greater CV increases the EG's stage lengths.
ear ear
regenbot wrote:
I wrote rather confusingly, sorry. It means that if you apply 5V you get 10 octave change instead of 5 octave. So it uses 0-5V range.


Ah, awesome! thumbs up

Isiah wrote:
Seems that some versions of the ADSR (STS?) are set up to respond inversely, such that applying a greater CV increases the EG's stage lengths.


That's a bit odd -- if you apply a CV to both the pitch of an oscillator and the length of an envelope you would want larger voltages to increase the pitch of the oscillator and shorten the envelope time proportionately, surely?
Isaiah
Okay, looking at the schematic for the CGS116, it looks like the Delay, Decay and Release stage times decrease with increasing CV applied.
However, it looks like the Attack stage time increases as the applied CV does.
I might be wrong...

I think this is what I must have read before in the past and what I was referring to in my last post.
Sorry for the confusion.

http://cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs116_env.html

Perhaps adding a switch to select between the current response (CV input at N) and an inverse response (CV input via 110K resistor wired to T2's Base) would be a useful mod.
You could set the Attack just above minimum to soften the sound and apply a CV to achieve a faster attack time for accents or dynamics (?) of sorts.
Would that be useful?
diophantine
Sorry to bump this old thread, but any more insight into this, particularly with the R*S ones? I'd skipped the Dual Extended ADSR since I wasn't sure how useful I'd find one, let alone two. With the new Dual Slope/Extended ADSR module I have the option to get only one.

I'll confess that I've been slow to make friends with most of my ADSRs (both modular & otherwise), and I do have some with full VC control (Hordijk, Blacet, and Oakley). I tend to prefer simpler envelope shapes, and I will typically use my VC envelopes in looping modes. I have seen the other threads on the Serge Extd ADSR, so I'm aware of alternate uses (like waveshaping via the sustain input).

So it comes down to: do I want an ADSR + 2 slope generators, or 2 ADSRs? (My Serge is currently at 13 4x4 modules and will end up being 24.)
Obviously only I can truly answer this question, but I'm just curious how useful/interesting it is to double up on ADSRs, and if anyone has found the Serge flavor ADSRs to be a lot more interesting/approachable than other ADSRs.
js213
I found this video a while ago and found it pretty interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgS_SKbJLyI
the bad producer
They are very interesting and useful in a variety of 'non-envelope' ways, esp the CGS one which one can modify to have End of Decay and End of Attack outputs, thereby making it useful for VC timing of different events etc. Can't speak for *RS* ones as have no experience.
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