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random*source love
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next [all]
Author random*source love
FatRocky
Is there any thread about dealing with random source euro serge and euro voltage differences?
Biom
I doubt it. Euro voltage differences? - Impossible.
Once people realise they are collecting modules with weird voltage I/O they will most definitely want to go mono-brand to avoid confusion and mess. And mono-brand system is the opposite of what euro is about.
There were some old threads about Make Noise though.

Once you are patching serge with serge you are absolutely fine. You won't be destroying your serge modules with euro either. Sometimes unexpected voltages lead to unexpected results, but serge is a greatly balanced instrument, which is full of surprises just on its own
Navs
I think you just have to know what you're dealing with in terms of levels. If the manufacturer isn't clear about the levels, check them with a voltmeter or oscilloscope.

I don't think owning a single-brand system is any guarantee against the unexpected, especially, as you say Biom, with Serge. Isn't the classic Serge 'gotcha' blowing up your speakers the first time you nudge the Animal's VCA gain above 3? hihi
dooj88
what better place to check than here.. why is the "Variable Q VCF" a noteworthy name? in fact i'd be hard pressed to find a euro filter doesn't have control over the resonance. genuinely curious. i am aware of the notoriety of this filer, i just can't hear anything jumping out at me about it.
thetaflux
dooj88 wrote:
what better place to check than here.. why is the "Variable Q VCF" a noteworthy name? in fact i'd be hard pressed to find a euro filter doesn't have control over the resonance. genuinely curious. i am aware of the notoriety of this filer, i just can't hear anything jumping out at me about it.


it does have VC over resonance. thats that the VC Q input is for. q = resonance. as for the sound, it's one of those things that you really need to hear in person to truly understand the hype.
stickmann
For the name itself, it really isn’t noteworthy. When Serge initially developed his filters there was the VCFQ (variable Q) and VCFS (variable slope). The original VCFS didn’t have resonance control at all. Hence the Variable Q as the differentiating characteristic of that filter.

Serge isn’t very creative with their module names but I like that they generally describe the behavior of the circuit and nothing else. Very utilitarian.
dooj88
stickmann wrote:
For the name itself, it really isn’t noteworthy. When Serge initially developed his filters there was the VCFQ (variable Q) and VCFS (variable slope). The original VCFS didn’t have resonance control at all. Hence the Variable Q as the differentiating characteristic of that filter.

Serge isn’t very creative with their module names but I like that they generally describe the behavior of the circuit and nothing else. Very utilitarian.


ah gotcha, makes total sense. little different from today where names need to be extreme to generate hype.. like Drumfuck or A Plague of Demons (sorry andrew!! your circuits are brilliant! couldn't come up with anything else off the top of my head!)
Biom
Navs wrote:
Isn't the classic Serge 'gotcha' blowing up your speakers the first time you nudge the Animal's VCA gain above 3? hihi


Still blowing mine from time to time with the ResEQ) That is exactly what I was trying to tell - Serge is full of surprises, but it's voltages are not. Jacks are coloured with a reason and help a lot.

Regarding the euro voltage confusion, you don't feel great, when you realise the gate does not fully open the lpg) Personally, being a euro enthusiast, I faced this problem a lot (especially with vco's and filters), along with the feeling that each module is just doing it's own thing and doesn't contribute to an instrument.
I'm not sure, but I think you'll have a problem mixing euro signals with the SSG, for instance.
Checking levels with a voltmeter is way too much for a musician, trying to play an instrument, imho.
12eightyfive
The voltage differences are why I decided to start my Euro Serge explorations with the res filter and the wave multipliers rather than be stranded with too-weak gates from the SSG or dusg. The res filter sounds amazing, the wave multipliers are terrific too! But yeah, going to go with a sport modulator instead of the SSG And keeping my Maths instead of the DUSG.
FatRocky
Is there a way to modify the RS Euro Serge so voltages could be more friendly with standard euro? or will it kill the Serge sound? d'oh!
stickmann
FatRocky wrote:
Is there a way to modify the RS Euro Serge so voltages could be more friendly with standard euro? or will it kill the Serge sound? d'oh!


Not that I can see. There are workarounds but the boards use surface mount so it wouldn't be easy to switch out the components. You can amplify signals going out of the R*S Serge and attenuate signals coming in. I don't think it is as much about the Serge sound as it is about being able to fully modulate non-Serge modules, specifically VCAs and filters.

Just to be clear, there is no Euro 'standard'. That is the real problem. I feel strongly that this is a serious problem with the format and that it would be beneficial, in the long term, for the big hitters in Euro to promote a standard. It is such a mess though because the manufacturers that have to alter their designs would get screwed financially.
Biom
FatRocky wrote:
Is there a way to modify the RS Euro Serge so voltages could be more friendly with standard euro? or will it kill the Serge sound? d'oh!

It would be much easier to answer your question, if you define, what sound are you after. What is missing for you in the serge universe you are planning to acquire with euro?
If we are talking just effects and processing - no need to worry about voltages.
If you want THAT (see the double meaning) serge sound, you'd need serge modules, which is obvious.
The Grump
FatRocky wrote:
Is there a way to modify the RS Euro Serge so voltages could be more friendly with standard euro? or will it kill the Serge sound? d'oh!


Disting Mk4?
Navs
I agree with the point about not wanting to be a scientist when making music, but I think that in the case of modular synths, knowing your voltages falls within the category of knowing your instrument.

So, for example, where a guitarist will change strings (or whatever it is they do) I look and listen for modules that work well together or try to understand what they do well and not so well, e.g. which envelope works best with which VCA.

Even within the Serge world, I think you do have to know your voltages, e.g. there is a difference hitting the VCFQ with unipolar as opposed to bipolar signals; the input sensitivity does matter. Or? hmmm.....
FatRocky
i want to know the voltages i don´t want to fuck up my modules eek! because they are expensive
FatRocky
The Grump wrote:
FatRocky wrote:
Is there a way to modify the RS Euro Serge so voltages could be more friendly with standard euro? or will it kill the Serge sound? d'oh!


Disting Mk4?


yes but how do i know the cv tolerance of my RS modules cv inputs?
Biom
Navs wrote:
which envelope works best with which VCA.


Regarding the fact there are 6453 euro modules registered on grid (and more to come), you may end up spending your whole life choosing the best env. Once you do, I really doubt the inspiration will be there for making some music.

As for the mono systems/instruments, learning your voltages is a natural and easy process, it is even written in the manual and, most definitely, opens a whole world for experimentation.

Absolutely agree with you on Serge. It's patching philosophy and interface is everything one may desire. Even when going nuts patching it, you clearly see/understand what is going where and what signal types are used as modulators.

I think, a guitarist is not the best example here. Learning your instrument is important and worth spending your life on, but if you are a solo independent composer/producer, you have to learn lots of stuff from acoustics to recording and beyond. You can't cover everything, so compromises are a necessity.
Self-limitation is a good helper here, since we are not good at decisions. I really believe an Animal or 2-3 M-class panels are more than enough to be creative with patching things. You will learn the basics really fast and still will be learning and discovering things over the years. Endless process and spares lots of time on developing recording techniques, collaborations or studying the history of art or music.
250U of euro? Well, that always made me laugh and is nothing, but a consumerism to me.
Biom
FatRocky wrote:
i want to know the voltages i don´t want to fuck up my modules eek! because they are expensive


What do you mean by "fucking them up"? As being said earlier, you won't do any damage to them, if that is your concern.
Good luck knowing your euro voltages though. As for the serge, it's clearly written in the manual. Takes a couple of hours reading, re-reading and you are there.
paterursus
FatRocky wrote:
i want to know the voltages i don´t want to fuck up my modules eek! because they are expensive

Most modules have input tolerances that are high enough to handle anything another module might give them. A bigger problem is that you might not get a full range of modulation from module to module. VCAs help with this, but you are still right to want to know the voltage levels. I started a thread some time ago (link here) trying to pin down the I/O voltage levels of different modules. If you look at the PDF there you'll see the scope of the problem. There's a complete lack of consistency, sometimes even within a single module (Doepfer Quad LFO, for example). Contrary to what has been said in this thread, it is not a straightforward matter to find out these levels. They're not always published, and in a couple of cases I had to contact the maker directly to get the answers. Unfortunately I never got to R*S, and time constraints meant I had to give up the project. I can understand your frustration and your desire to get answers on this. You might try reaching out to R*S directly and get the levels. If you get an answer, PM me if you don't mind, and I'll update my list.
Villarceau
I only have the euro DSG from Random Source and never thought about voltage levels much, just modulated the hell out of it and never had issues except sometimes it drops out of self-cycle when I use it as an osc and admittedly feed it some weird stuff in all inputs and I need to attenuate a little and just reflick the self-cycle switch. I think this whole voltage discussion is not really relevant in this thread, but then again what do I know? I use doepfer VCAs and they seem to respond very well. There is a bi-polar output that I use strategically when needed but mostly only when I use it as an osc, but that is superstition, never had an issue just using the unipolar output either if I forgot. It is the counterpoint to my control forge and satellite combo, and a formidable stepbrother to my oldschool Catalyst Audio buchla osc clone often in crazy cross-modulation patches. The DUSG is legendary for good reason, I am very happy to have it in my mostly digital system. It does not come with utilities like maths does but I am pretty convinced it has a larger range and precision than maths on the functon generator side of things, but then again I never had maths, not seeing how I could be missing anything though, rather the contrary.
MindMachine
dooj88 wrote:
what better place to check than here.. why is the "Variable Q VCF" a noteworthy name? in fact i'd be hard pressed to find a euro filter doesn't have control over the resonance. genuinely curious. i am aware of the notoriety of this filer, i just can't hear anything jumping out at me about it.


Serge designed this in the early-mid 1970's when maybe one or no other VCF's had Variable VC Q. I think an Emu VCF may have a couple of years after Serge. Did ARP 2500? Point being, it was very unique at the time and could be very musical. That is why so many modern VCF's now have it. While I enjoy the Serge VCF's I don't find them to be 'next tier' above my other favorites. I do enjoy how they are full featured and somewhat unique with some ins and outs. The Trigger In on the VCQ is really cool. Ive never used the Variable Slope VCF but would love to try it out.
FatRocky
Biom wrote:
FatRocky wrote:
i want to know the voltages i don´t want to fuck up my modules eek! because they are expensive


What do you mean by "fucking them up"? As being said earlier, you won't do any damage to them, if that is your concern.
Good luck knowing your euro voltages though. As for the serge, it's clearly written in the manual. Takes a couple of hours reading, re-reading and you are there.


Manual?
Villarceau
FatRocky wrote:
Biom wrote:
FatRocky wrote:
i want to know the voltages i don´t want to fuck up my modules eek! because they are expensive


What do you mean by "fucking them up"? As being said earlier, you won't do any damage to them, if that is your concern.
Good luck knowing your euro voltages though. As for the serge, it's clearly written in the manual. Takes a couple of hours reading, re-reading and you are there.


Manual?


There is no manual indeed, as far as I know. But I have also neve heard about any module fucking up another module. Has that ever ever happened? Really? Because my avid reading of Muffs might not have been enough then
FatRocky
Biom wrote:
FatRocky wrote:
i want to know the voltages i don´t want to fuck up my modules eek! because they are expensive


What do you mean by "fucking them up"? As being said earlier, you won't do any damage to them, if that is your concern.
Good luck knowing your euro voltages though. As for the serge, it's clearly written in the manual. Takes a couple of hours reading, re-reading and you are there.


Haven’t you heard about damage by overloading the inputs?
Doesn’t it happen to eurorack modules?

I wouldn’t be exposing my ignorance if there was a manual believe me!
Navs
You won't damage them but you might not get the result you expect - that is what I was saying.

This is another instance of needing to know about voltages: on the most basic level, the Euro and Serge systems run off +/-12V power supplies. That is a span of 24V. On a working system, you can not exceed those boundaries.

e.g. if you patch four unipolar 10V signals into a Euro mixer, you will not get 40V at the output. The output will be clipped at something under 12V (depending on the circuitry/design).

To pull this thread back on topic, my point about Random Source not adjusting the tolerances for, for example, the VCFQ, means that people might not be getting the experience they were expecting. That's because they might be feeding the filter with a (totally typical/ standard) 10V pp Euro audio signal, when the filter actually wants half that level.

I think this has repercussions, both musical and in terms of reputation for the module or even brand, especially for a so-called 'legendary' and sought-after filter like the VCFQ: after years of reading about it, it's finally available to a broader market, people buy it, over-load it, and say 'meh, what was all the fuss about?' wink
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