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random*source love
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules  
Author random*source love
warnton
having their variable Q VCF and since two hours the SSG, I cannot wait, to get the next modules, which they turn from Serge into eurorack. I love the layout, which is perfect for my fingers, the filter sounds marvelous and the looks are beautiful (= inviting me to patch and wiggle) I know, its not in the small footprint departement, but this is exactly, what it makes them so fantastic for me: you can patch a lot and still have room for the knobs. within minutes with the SSG I got results, which I was not able to figure out with the sportmodulator – this tells you about my (missing) intelligence, but also about the very clever seducing layout of random*sources' SSG.
I simply adore the two modules so far!
Sacha
I also love the VCFQ ... a great filter ... very powerful!

The new SSG looks amazing!
Robonom
Top filter ! I just need one more wink
I just order the SSG and Resonant Equalizer, anybody knows where can i find a mouser bom for this new modules ?
synthysynth
Robonom wrote:
Top filter ! I just need one more wink
I just order the SSG and Resonant Equalizer, anybody knows where can i find a mouser bom for this new modules ?


Look in the DIY subforum, somebody posted a mouser cart for the res eq. I hope he comes out with the wave multiplier next, if he does it will stop me from buying an animal. These modules are of high quality and it looks like he will be releasing the entire line. I wonder if there will be any good reasons to go with 4u rather than eurorack if you just want a basic serge system?
warnton
stop buying animal:-)
wavecircle
synthysynth wrote:
Robonom wrote:
Top filter ! I just need one more wink
I just order the SSG and Resonant Equalizer, anybody knows where can i find a mouser bom for this new modules ?


Look in the DIY subforum, somebody posted a mouser cart for the res eq. I hope he comes out with the wave multiplier next, if he does it will stop me from buying an animal. These modules are of high quality and it looks like he will be releasing the entire line. I wonder if there will be any good reasons to go with 4u rather than eurorack if you just want a basic serge system?


Slightly bigger and banana patching.... I love my STS system but it will be interesting to see where this Euro Serge line goes. I still feels like I am using an instrument rather than a collection of modules with the Serge stuff. The build quality is second to none, this includes Buchla, Wiard, Fenix, Euro. It is military tough and I am quite confident it will outlive me, I never felt that way about any Euro modules with the exception of Livewire.
warnton
but that is exactly the point: though it is now converted into euro, it still feels spaced and concerning the build quality, I agree with Livewire, but there is also to mention cwejman ... and now random*source :-)
ben_hex
I'd certainly like all three modules that are released so far. They look great. Looking forward to reports on the the newest two. The filter seemed very well received.
chiavere
Hi All,

I recently grabbed a Random Source euroSerge Wave Multipliers, and am loving getting to know it - here's a sample of some "pseudo-Serge" chaotic fun with it:

https://soundcloud.com/freemovementarts/pseudo-serge-w-random-source-s erge-wave-multipliers/s-tuccF
vaxoid
Falling in instant love! Res EQ is my favorite )
https://www.instagram.com/p/BA-ojjmJ7-e/
droningspaghettimonster
goddamn diy. . .
southphillysynths
Yeah man the build quality of the pcbs and panels are simply amazing! What a joy to build.

I think I may have missed out on the res eq complete kits which I'm pretty bummed about. I will most likely just have to use the mouser BOM unfortunately.

Anyway I am absolutely going to be build my system around these looking forward to the stuff that is yet to be announced!!

by the way here is a thread that has most of the BOMS

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=153153
ludotex
I like this hint:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/random-source-serge-new-timbral-oscillat or-nto

Looking forward to hearing it! w00t
christie
Here's the eurorack Serge system I recently built. It's almost entirely R*S. I discussed it a bit over on the buchla/Serge forum, and after getting a fair bit of feedback it landed in this configuration.
I really enjoy this system, especially when using stackcables and when not relying too much on the traditional oscillators for that role.

G
teezdalien
I absolutely love the r*s serge modules. Definitely amongst my favorite modules. Really high quality kits. Here's what my system will eventually look like once the NTOs become available. Though I'm weighing up whether I should go for a second DUSG instead as I really love that module and they're already available. hmmm.....

Really looking forward to taking this case out for a performance this weekend! nanners

ignatius
wavemult is just the best thing ever imo. i love that thing to death. would like to get more r/s serge when i can. DUSG would be dope.
christie
teezdalien wrote:
Here's what my system will eventually look like once the NTOs become available.


Pretty similar, looks great. Personally, I love the double-double -- having two DSG makes it really different. It was worth missing out on the Resonant EQ, given I really wanted to stay at 84hp rows.
gryfon1
ignatius wrote:
wavemult is just the best thing ever imo. i love that thing to death. would like to get more r/s serge when i can. DUSG would be dope.

DUSG plus wave multipliers is a match made in heaven. Infinite beauty in that combo.
teezdalien
christie wrote:
teezdalien wrote:
Here's what my system will eventually look like once the NTOs become available.


Pretty similar, looks great. Personally, I love the double-double -- having two DSG makes it really different. It was worth missing out on the Resonant EQ, given I really wanted to stay at 84hp rows.


The res eq took a little while to click with me, but I'm finding more and more it's an essential piece of the patches I'm creating. Really feels alive (for lack of a better term.)
I don't think I'd swap it out for anything because there's nothing else really like it.
FatRocky
where can i watch and listen to good NTO demos?
ImNotDedYet
FatRocky wrote:
where can i watch and listen to good NTO demos?


There are plenty of sound samples on the Random*Source page for the NTO. They're on soundcloud.
vgermuse
Yes! R*S Serge love indeed. Just got a few modules and can't stop exploring them. So much sonic territory with just DUSG-WM-SSG-VCFq. The VCFq is my all time fave filter.



NCOM coming soon w00t
Entrainer
What VCAs are you folks using with these modules? Does the DUSG output +/-5V peak-to-peak?
Avjr
This is where i'm at at the moment:



QVCF should be posted to me tomorrow and the NTO will be ordered once i sell the Aion 921 VCO. Still have to study the NCOM properly to understand what it actually does... And you don't see a lot of love for the TWS but it gave a whole new life to my Dronebank. Great match.

R*S Serge is pure perfection to me. The graphics and layout, the big panels, the exploration possibilities and the sound, man the sound... Seems like it was made to suit my tastes and needs. And the build quality is way up there with the best. Just love this stuff to death.[/url]
colossus
I've pretty much re-worked my 104hp skiff (only rig currently) into an R*S rack. This is it currently. I'm building an SSG right now and I'll duel with the Wogglebug. However, if it stays, then I'll need to find a noise source for random uses.



I'd concur that these are just superb modules. Easy builds, amazing quality, amazing sound, and the workflow just fits excellently with my synthing mindset. And yes, they're a bit big, but I'm starting to find that large panels are an ergonomic luxury and worth the HP sacrifice, even in a small rig. I'd rather have less modules that I can play comfortably than more modules that are cramped.
Hr.Jansen
I have fallen for RS Serge too. Everything about them is perfect!
I have all the modules except the slope filter. I feel the Benjolin and Twinpeak is as made for living on planet Serge.

Here is a video of me trying to learn my modules. (before i got the NTO and TWS)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDhJW7p9Tf8&feature=youtu.be
luketeaford
I have the Wave Multipliers, SSG, VCFQ, and NCOM-- these are some of my favorite modules. They are excellent at drawing one away from the standard keyboard monosynth mindset. I plan on adding the NTO, VCFS, and RESEQ over the next year.

I am interested in the DUSG, but I don't know how much of an improvement it would be over Maths (which I have gotten to track pretty well in the lower range) and I love its smaller footprint and mixing abilities. Can anyone with DUSG experience think of other things I'm missing from that?

I'm using the Scan & Pan as my main VCAs with this-- has a thick warm sound when overdriven. The top channel of the Wave Mults can be a linear VCA, too. Don't overlook the "LPG" patch with Smooth side thumbs up
colossus
DUSG sounds worlds beyond Maths as a VCO. I can't comment on 1v/oct as that doesn't really concern me, but the quality of the audio range signal sounds superior. I haven't compared them on a scope so it may just be in my head. I find that its triangle sounds 'smoother.' Also, it's upper audio range is far beyond Maths. Other than that, I kinda miss the sharper exp slopes of Maths and Maths seems like it can go slower, though I haven't messed all that much with feeding neg CV into Rise/Fall. Overall, I'm happy that DUSG took the place of my Maths, largely for its audio-range uses.
lud
I could definitely use Maths and DSG in every patch. if I owned a DSG that is, no kits around now
Positive Modular Attitude
lud wrote:
I could definitely use Maths and DSG in every patch.


This is what I do. Both modules are essential to my patching, and I thought one would make the other obsolete at first - but I quickly discovered that they're quite different monsters! Get both people! grin
colossus
lud wrote:
I could definitely use Maths and DSG in every patch. if I owned a DSG that is, no kits around now


Both Modular Addict and Control have them. Do they not ship abroad?
lud
Thanks for the tip-off colossus. Will wait on more stock this side of the pond, extra taxes and shipping would increase the original price significantly
lud
Has anyone enquired about a new run of DSG to Random S?
erstlaub
I'm gassing quite hard on these at the moment, they just look so beautiful. I'm a little on the fence as the slightly expensive cost of the kits doesn't quite tally against my confidence with DIY to not end up with a smoking ruined pile of garbage and knocks it out of that comfort zone.

I've got a whole 'spare' 84hp that I'm currently fantasizing about being filled with a DUSG, SSG and maybe a filter or 2.
colossus
lud wrote:
Has anyone enquired about a new run of DSG to Random S?


I ask Steve at Thonk and he said DSG sometime mid June.

erstlaub wrote:
I'm gassing quite hard on these at the moment, they just look so beautiful. I'm a little on the fence as the slightly expensive cost of the kits doesn't quite tally against my confidence with DIY to not end up with a smoking ruined pile of garbage and knocks it out of that comfort zone.

I've got a whole 'spare' 84hp that I'm currently fantasizing about being filled with a DUSG, SSG and maybe a filter or 2.


The DSG and SSG --- and Waveshaper and Multiplier --- already have the SMD done so it's really just assembly at that point. The filters need to be fully populated. They're not that challenging of builds but the pads are pretty teeny so a fine tip and a steady hand are really helpful. I'd offer to build for you but someone on your side of the pond would likely be easier to deal with.
Positive Modular Attitude
Does anybody know if it's possible to get the VCFS to self-oscillate?
listentoaheartbeat
Positive Modular Attitude wrote:
Does anybody know if it's possible to get the VCFS to self-oscillate?


Yes, you can patch phase-inverted feedback from BAND to IN for self-oscillation.
cheliosheart
The VCFS is my favorite, I'm always using it.

The kits are fun builds and aren't difficult to DIY in my opinion especially with SMD already pre-built.

Love R*S so much I've already begun planning a 4u banana system with their modules.
Positive Modular Attitude
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Positive Modular Attitude wrote:
Does anybody know if it's possible to get the VCFS to self-oscillate?


Yes, you can patch phase-inverted feedback from BAND to IN for self-oscillation.


WOW! Thanks so much for the tip! I instantly got the most consistent and hard hitting kicks I've coaxed out of my system yet! grin
Biom
FatRocky wrote:
where can i watch and listen to good NTO demos?


there are plenty of demos on youtube, have you checked them?
Apfelmann
came here to share the love!

Started a diy case with Random Source Serge Modules, currently consisting of: NTO, VCFS, DUSG, SSG, NCOM and gls should drop a TWS in the next hour

also in that case: Turing machine + Volts and Pulses and Radio music

Still to come: a second DUSG (happy to hear thonk will have them back again soon), VQVCF, maybe a second NTO
schwittersplayspop
I've built all of the R*S Euro modules (one of each) from Thonk kits.

There are definitely two classes of build difficulty with these modules. The modules are a mix of pre-soldered surface mount and through-hole work that you must do yourself.

All of them require you to build a front-panel board with jacks, pots, switches and headers to connect to a second board which houses the actual circuit.

This is where there is a bit of a difficulty split. Some of the modules are almost completely done with surface mount technology, and the boards you buy are completely pre-populated. I don't remember having to do surface mount work on any of them myself. These are the really easy R*S builds: you do the jack/pot/switch board, and headers to connect the pre-populated SMD board to it, and it's more or less done.

A few of them have boards that are heavier on through-hole components and these are ones where you have to do that soldering yourself. I did not find these complex builds but I got to them after having built a fair number of other modules.

I would say that the R*S instruction PDFs are good for a moderately experienced builder. As with all DIY, pay extremely close attention to the whole document, think every decision through, and even the through-hole ones will be fairly easy builds.

What I also found is that in places where R*S suggest different options for component quality or the odd component that's optional to install at all, that the Thonk kit had already made that decision for me, which was very helpful.
lud
Great news on the DSG restock, thanks for checking colossus!

Think I'm just going to add the DSG in Euro, then get a 4U case on the go.
At least that's the plan at the moment. Hoping to check out the NTO in real life soon, be good if they stocked assembled at London Modular etc.
I get it though smile
XAXAU
I´ve built 2x NTO, a VCM and a dual Wasp.

I recommend getting a flux pen for the (very few) SMT parts. I screwed up soldering a SMT opamp on the Wasp and had to rip it off of the board and solder in links instead and now the filter frequency moves whenever I wiggle the CV attenuators (original behaviour I think). No big deal.

Want to get 1-2 DUSG Mk2´s and a TWS+.

Thonk should have the boards and have the parts for the kits coming in right about now. I´ve talked to Ralf at R*S and Steve at Thonk!
paterursus
My music is fairly East Coast in style, but I have this persistent love of the R*S Serge stuff. So far I've built a TWS, a VCFS, and a VCFQ. I've just ordered a DUSG, and NTO and NCOM are next. I simply can't get enough of the unique timbres these modules can produce. Like others here I'll note the build quality, which is first rate.
I'll also give a shout out to R*S for keeping the Haible legacy going. Dual Wasp and Living VCOs are my first builds there, but there will be more.
1n
DUSG and Wave Multipliers (VCM) delivered today. Supplied by the amazing and helpful Dr Wiener. I've been saving up for over 10 months, and finally get to make some sounds.

Just over a year ago that I first heard a Serge system and then a Benjolin. And my sense of music changed significantly.

Only had a brief space to play on the DUSG plus Resonant Eq patched with Turing Machine. So far: tablas, pulsing beats, resonant metal strikes. Not new except to me, and I'm very happy.

I was intending to stop at 104hp...but it's not going to happen.

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/456842
FlangerMagazine
Have all the R*S Euro except the Res EQ, Slope Filter, and NTO.

Seconded on the "ergonomics" comment. A very satisfying experience utilizing these modules.
Positive Modular Attitude
Just received two NTOs from Dr Wiener, and I'm stunned! I didn't know analog oscillators could be this stable, and every sound coming from them both vanilla or experimental is insanely beautiful!
VCFQ should arrive early next week... we're not worthy
Iridite
The VCM is in stock at Signal Sounds in the UK, more Serge modules to follow in the next few weeks:

http://www.signalsounds.com/product-p/170601310964023.htm
dmod
This shit makes me want to start learning DIY! love
dmod
Positive Modular Attitude wrote:
Just received two NTOs from Dr Wiener, and I'm stunned! I didn't know analog oscillators could be this stable, and every sound coming from them both vanilla or experimental is insanely beautiful!
VCFQ should arrive early next week... we're not worthy
Did you have these built? I have wanted a Serge system forever.
ImNotDedYet
dmod wrote:
This shit makes me want to start learning DIY! love


Some of their stuff has all the SMT stuff already soldered on. Basically you just need to solder the pots, jacks, etc. Pretty simple builds. Of course, these "kits" cost more.
dmod
ImNotDedYet wrote:
dmod wrote:
This shit makes me want to start learning DIY! love


Some of their stuff has all the SMT stuff already soldered on. Basically you just need to solder the pots, jacks, etc. Pretty simple builds. Of course, these "kits" cost more.
Oh cool. If you could provide a link so I know ecactlt what to get that would be awesome! thumbs up
Positive Modular Attitude
dmod wrote:
Positive Modular Attitude wrote:
Just received two NTOs from Dr Wiener, and I'm stunned! I didn't know analog oscillators could be this stable, and every sound coming from them both vanilla or experimental is insanely beautiful!
VCFQ should arrive early next week... we're not worthy
Did you have these built? I have wanted a Serge system forever.


Yup, I emailed him and a week later they were in my rack! He's highly recommended! grin
gordy_c
I just ordered a few of these modules from Thonk for my new Eurorack system. It was a bit of an impulse buy, as I'm just starting off, eek!.

I have the TWS, VCFQ and NCOM on the way. Depending on how I go with these I hope to get the DUSG and maybe an NTO in the future.

Now to try and remember where I've put the soldering iron.
Avjr
gordy_c wrote:
I just ordered a few of these modules from Thonk for my new Eurorack system. It was a bit of an impulse buy, as I'm just starting off, eek!.

I have the TWS, VCFQ and NCOM on the way. Depending on how I go with these I hope to get the DUSG and maybe an NTO in the future.

Now to try and remember where I've put the soldering iron.


You will def want DUSG. cool
ImNotDedYet
dmod wrote:
ImNotDedYet wrote:
dmod wrote:
This shit makes me want to start learning DIY! love


Some of their stuff has all the SMT stuff already soldered on. Basically you just need to solder the pots, jacks, etc. Pretty simple builds. Of course, these "kits" cost more.
Oh cool. If you could provide a link so I know ecactlt what to get that would be awesome! thumbs up


http://randomsource.net/serge_euro

Look for the items that 1) you would want and 2) state they have the SMT components already mounted/installed/soldered.
lud
Want a DSG kit!
timoka
why didn't i discover serge earlier... i am in love with all these modules, it is just like when i first had a cwejman module in front of me.
can't stop patching, love the sound, the functions, the concept of patch programming. perfect!

here's a semi random wonky dub, r*s modules for rhythm and sound, with cwejman help.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/uzala/ncom[/s]
drinkcorpsevomit
timoka wrote:

here's a semi random wonky dub, r*s modules for rhythm and sound, with cwejman help.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/uzala/ncom[/s]


Thats just lovely. Some really classic tones in there. Buying certain kit really does give you access to certain sounds you cannot get any other way. Like buying an 808 clone only gets you 90% of the way to the 808 'soul'. There's really no way around it.
listentoaheartbeat
timoka wrote:
[s]http://soundcloud.com/uzala/ncom[/s]


Great recording, timoka!
timoka
thanks @drinkcorpsevomit and @listentoaheartbeat,

i agree, serge modules have a distinguished sound. however unlike other brands i find it easier to shape the sound away from the "typical" territory.
Avjr
Having just ordered the VCFS i will have now all the R*S Serge modules except the N COM. Curiously i will have 10hp left on that case wich is what the N COM requires...

I have built a Serge oriented case so the N COM would be the obvious candidate to fill that space up but i still don't quite grasp what it does practically so can't tell if it will be useful for me.

Anyone care to share some insight and/or patch ideas on the N COM? What can one do with it?
vgermuse
Avjr wrote:
Having just ordered the VCFS i will have now all the R*S Serge modules except the N COM. Curiously i will have 10hp left on that case wich is what the N COM requires...

Anyone care to share some insight and/or patch ideas on the N COM? What can one do with it?


https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81473&highlight=

w00t
Avjr
vgermuse wrote:
Avjr wrote:
Having just ordered the VCFS i will have now all the R*S Serge modules except the N COM. Curiously i will have 10hp left on that case wich is what the N COM requires...

Anyone care to share some insight and/or patch ideas on the N COM? What can one do with it?


https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81473&highlight=

w00t


Aw man, how did i miss this in my Google search? Thanks a bunch! we're not worthy
Gonna give it a good read. More tips are always welcomed!

But you pleople know i'm getting it anyways... Dead Banana
vgermuse
Be sure to use the Muffs search in the Buchla, EMS, Serge thread for more information, tips and tricks.
funqpatrol
I've been fascinated recently by serge sound, and especially by that demo of the 2 NTO fming each other othe demo page. Only thing that come close to that kind of sound is the Lorre Mill double knot. Nowhere else have I heard these sounds. Now I want them all
nimmen
R*S Serge is one of main reasons i'm expanding my rack, just can't ping vcfq enough for few months now...
Avjr
NTO users, any recommendations on other vcos to pair with it? I'm thinking of replacing my Make Noise STO and i don't have the hp for another NTO, only 14hp left... waah
lightafterdark
Serge Precision VCO would be the perfect match for NTO. I really hope that Random*Source will make it available soon in euro format.
hallospceboy
I really wish the search function worked, posted two days ago asking about this exact thing... very frustrating
Looks like for Christmas I’m gonna build me some modules and make myself a random source serge case! Very excited about all of this!
And that BOM thread. It's peanut butter jelly time!
nimmen
I'm also building "sergy" cases, wonder if anyone could post their "mainly serge" racks as example, starting to lack ideas on what to add and how to balance it well (it will be 12u x 84 "portable" case). Or at least could tell me what other complimentary modules(non serge) they find very nice to have.
At the moment have:
2x reseq
2x vcfq
1x nto
1x ncom
1x dusg
1x ssg
other non serge modules, like vca's, mixers, fx, etc...
Hr.Jansen
I feel the Hordjik Benjolin and TwinPeak filter, Doepfer matrix mixer and MN Erbe-verb fits my serge well. Spring reverb goes without saying i guess, but in lack of wad, i feel i can do lots of weird delays with my rainmaker. Just filter out the modern hi-fi highs and lows... smile
rob909101
I have the 4u: nto, wave mult/reseq, dssg, dusg, dual adsr, vcfq mixer
But no time to use it waah [/img]
neonmercury1
rob909101 wrote:
I have the 4u: nto, wave mult/reseq, dssg, dusg, dual adsr, vcfq mixer
But no time to use it waah [/img]


you can send it to me and ill put it to good use Miley Cyrus
neonmercury1
nimmen wrote:
I'm also building "sergy" cases, wonder if anyone could post their "mainly serge" racks as example, starting to lack ideas on what to add and how to balance it well (it will be 12u x 84 "portable" case). Or at least could tell me what other complimentary modules(non serge) they find very nice to have.
At the moment have:


this is my 7u "sergey" setup
i find i lack some gated envelopes and would always use more vcas and mixers. also waiting for the 1u sequencer coming hopefully this year. i usually dont have the dsp in there but i have it in there to use with W/ and my DX7II which is a strange addition to the sergey style. I have thought also about swapping the mmg and rubicon for NTO and VCFQ but i feel like i like it better this way and will save that for when i go BANANAS... Rockin' Banana! sometimes i also think of swapping the tides for just friends and mmg for sisters (which are in the other case) but have yet to try. I feel like i will lose the black hole and add a pico dsp or wmd dplr, pico logic, and two pipslopes.

ANYWAY I dig it. full serge it is not but i coax some wild stuff out of here! I mainly use for making darker ambient work, samples, and sound design to feed my digitakt and op1.

i have another 9u case that i usually keep as a separate instrument for techno along with digitakt.
FatRocky
is anyone here finding interesting or keeping the 4ms RCD, SCM and PEG together with the R*S euro Serge modules? or would you be able to get those functions by using the euro Serge modules themselves?

just trying to get funds to buy more R*S by selling my 4ms but thinking they will pair great
gnome666
FatRocky wrote:
is anyone here finding interesting or keeping the 4ms RCD, SCM and PEG together with the R*S euro Serge modules? or would you be able to get those functions by using the euro Serge modules themselves?

just trying to get funds to buy more R*S by selling my 4ms but thinking they will pair great


Funny you should post this cuz just last night I slipped my unused RCD into my all euroserge case after watching a bunch of 4U serge videos with people using the pulse divider module. Although you can use the DUSG or Ncom to accomplish a similar thing, the R*S euro modules take up a fair amount of space, and I always felt that I would be underutilizing the DUSG by tying it up for pulse division duties. IMHO the RCD is essentially like the 4U pulse divider module in a small HP cost 3U size.
murch33
NTO user here, and I have the Wave Multiplier on the way. My case is slowly becoming more Serge-y. I'm keeping an eye out for the Resonant EQ as well.

I've already got several filters that I really like, so I'm kind of going out of my way to avoid listening to too many demos of the R*S filters. help
thetaflux
Diving headfirst into the random source serge lineup this summer. So far i've built the VCFS and VCFQ, and have the parts for several NTOs, DUSGs, VCFQs, RESEQs, TWS and SSG and the Ring Mod on the way as part of a small run i'm doing. when all is said and done i hope to keep a RESEQ, DUSG x2, VCM and a SSG.



here are some potential layouts for performance cases i've been kicking around that heavily feature serge modules. Both are designed to be accompanied by a TKB in a skiff case for melodic sequencing duties. the first is a 12u 84hp performance case, with each row in the upper half being a 'voice'. the matrix mixer allows me to dynamically switch the routing of oscillators and filters without patching, and theres a pretty intricate generative clocking section in there featuring the Arc Artificial Neural Network(an amazing module btw).

the second is a fun idea to pair a MN B&G Shared System with a rough equivalent in R*S modules. this system would be in two MN CV bus cases.





here's a fun acid jam i did with the VCFS https://soundcloud.com/thetaflux/three-naught-three
gnome666
A messy patched pic of my euroserge setup. Modules:
R*S: DUSG, SSG, NTO, NCOM, VCFS, VCFQ, TWM, TWS, RINGMOD, RESEQ
ARC: Noise, AudioMixer
Other: 4MS RCD, Pam's New Workout, Tangle Quartet, 2HP verb and quantizer


Biom
Ring mod demos are HIGHLY appreciated! Guinness ftw!
stickmann
Hey Biom, I uploaded a snippet and put it up on the Serge Ring post.

Cool system gnome666. It looks pretty similar to mine! How do you like the ResEQ? I have been seriously considering swapping out 10hp in my current setup to make room for the 4MS RCD and a logic module to replicate the Edelweiss setup. But then I think I should just go bananas.

Thetaflux, I'd highly recommend the 3 DUSG setup over a mix of R*S and Make Noise. I can speak from experience that the two manufacturers use different voltage standards so you can't fully open LxD, QMMG, or filter using the R*S modules. Make noise is either +8v for gates and expect 10v for modulation so it doesn't work out all that well. Serge uses 5v max. You could find a way to amplify the signal but I just figured it made more sense to get more Serge. hihi
stickmann
Here is my system:



Obscured by light is the VCM.
FatRocky
how can i get clock multiplication with Random Source Euro Serge modules?
gummyboy
Is NTO more expensive in UK?
blinosynth
If only the dusg was smaller cry
pugix
Has anyone combined Random*Source modules with Elby-Serge modules? Elby-Serge has quite a few more Serge modules than Random*Source has come out with yet. Also, can anyone compare the R*S DUSG with the Elby-Serge VCS? Or the Resonant EQs?
Biom
pugix wrote:
Elby-Serge has quite a few more Serge modules than Random*Source has come out with yet.


Some modules will never come out, because of the unobtainable parts. The rest is already covered by RS effectively, with lots of new and cool features. The good news is you can build your instrument with CGS and STS panels that work with RS flawlessly all together. Some of them are rare and cost a fortune, but they worth it, much more than a $10k Arp 2600 on ebay or a case of euro.

As far as DUSG's concerned, R*S DUSG is the best dusg (have a look at their XL version as well). Same goes for NTO.

Resonant EQ is a bit more intricate topic. There were some variations, though without some or the other sounding duller or worse, just different. You may get into details in the dedicated thread: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2813033&highlight=#2 813033

@stickmann: that Ring patch was very-well made! Very informative indeed. Thank you!
pugix
Biom wrote:
pugix wrote:
Elby-Serge has quite a few more Serge modules than Random*Source has come out with yet.


Some modules will never come out, because of the unobtainable parts. The rest is already covered by RS effectively, with lots of new and cool features. The good news is you can build your instrument with CGS and STS panels that work with RS flawlessly all together. Some of them are rare and cost a fortune, but they worth it, much more than a $10k Arp 2600 on ebay or a case of euro.

As far as DUSG's concerned, R*S DUSG is the best dusg (have a look at their XL version as well).


I have not seen a Random*Source offering of the 1973 EG, the Extended ADSR, the Negative Slew, or the Positive Slew, or a Noise Source. I've built all of these except the Extended ADSR. The Negative Slew is one of my favorite Serge modules.

http://pugix.com/synth/cgs-serge-negative-slew/
http://pugix.com/synth/cgs-serge-positive-slew-ssg-and-noise/
http://pugix.com/synth/serge-1973-envelope-generator-and-triple-switch  /

All of these are indicated as currently available for Elby-Serge on Modular Grid.

Biom wrote:
Same goes for NTO.


Is anyone else offering the NTO?

Biom wrote:
Resonant EQ is a bit more intricate topic. There were some variations, though without some or the other sounding duller or worse, just different. You may get into details in the dedicated thread: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2813033&highlight=#2 813033


Thanks for that topic link. I need to pay more attention to the Serge threads. I've built quite a few of Ken Stone's CGS Serge. At the moment I'm doing some research for a friend who wants to get a large Serge rack in Euro format.

http://pugix.com/synth/cgs-serge-ssg/
http://pugix.com/synth/cgs-serge-dual-universal-slope-generator/
http://pugix.com/synth/serge-ring-mod-phaser-and-resonant-equalizer/
http://pugix.com/synth/serge-vcfq-and-serge-wave-shapers/
http://pugix.com/synth/cgs-serge-positive-slew-ssg-and-noise/
pugix
I just ordered a Random*Source Serge Dual Universal Slope Generator mk2 full kit from Thonk. I have a CGS DUSG (with banana jacks) and two CGS VCS (in MOTM with 1/4 inch jacks). It will be fun to compare these. And now I'll have a DUSG in Eurorack!
Biom
pugix wrote:

I have not seen a Random*Source offering of the 1973 EG, the Extended ADSR, the Negative Slew, or the Positive Slew, or a Noise Source. I've built all of these except the Extended ADSR. The Negative Slew is one of my favorite Serge modules.

Is anyone else offering the NTO?
/


Random*Source has dual Extended ADSR (not the most exciting module to me) and, of course, the Noise Source, coupled with SSG.

NTO and Precision vco's were done by STS and CGS too.

As for the euro format, you're right, the RS selection of modules is very Animal at the moment. I think it's because lots of stuff can be replicated with euro modules, which sometimes could become a mess.
Euro-serge has its benefits for sure, until you realise you could never have Klangzeit, for instance.

Congrats with the DUSG! You'll need attenuators to use it with other euro.
pugix
Biom wrote:
pugix wrote:

I have not seen a Random*Source offering of the 1973 EG, the Extended ADSR, the Negative Slew, or the Positive Slew, or a Noise Source. I've built all of these except the Extended ADSR. The Negative Slew is one of my favorite Serge modules.

Is anyone else offering the NTO?
/


Random*Source has dual Extended ADSR (not the most exciting module to me) and, of course, the Noise Source, coupled with SSG.

NTO and Precision vco's were done by STS and CGS too.

As for the euro format, you're right, the RS selection of modules is very Animal at the moment. I think it's because lots of stuff can be replicated with euro modules, which sometimes could become a mess.
Euro-serge has its benefits for sure, until you realise you could never have Klangzeit, for instance.

Congrats with the DUSG! You'll need attenuators to use it with other euro.


Thanks!

Do you have any links for the STS or CGS NTOs in any panel format? I haven't been able to find them. Not on Modular Grid either.

I've been looking for places to buy R*S kits, full or partial. Besides Thonk, I see some on Modular Addict. Anywhere else?
tnktni
There are a few R*S kits available from Control, though most of them are sold out:
https://www.ctrl-mod.com/collections/diy/DIY-Kit
tnktni
Additional Q: I am wondering if any users can give insight on the functional/tonal differences between the Variable Slope filter (VCFS) and the Variable Resonance filter (VCFQ)? Judging by pics and demos, it seems like:

- VCFQ has a dedicated ping input and has that unique resonance tone
- VCFS has a crossfade control between 2 inputs

Thanks.
pugix
tnktni wrote:
There are a few R*S kits available from Control, though most of them are sold out:
https://www.ctrl-mod.com/collections/diy/DIY-Kit


Thanks. I forgot to check some of my usual vendors, thinking they had only fully assembled modules. Seems that Perfect Circuit has a few kits, too.

https://www.perfectcircuitaudio.com/eurorack-modular-synths/random-sou rce.html?tabIndex=brand
tnktni
FWIW I've also seen some folks on Buy/Sell forum here and on ModularGrid selling kits they didn't end up building as well.
Biom
pugix wrote:

Do you have any links for the STS or CGS NTOs in any panel format? I haven't been able to find them. Not on Modular Grid either.

I've been looking for places to buy R*S kits, full or partial. Besides Thonk, I see some on Modular Addict. Anywhere else?


Modgrid has a whole "Serge" section.

The kits are available through randomsource.net directly as well.

4U subforum is your best place to start, I think
cloudleft
Are all 5 of the R*S NTO's wave outputs simultaneously available? If so, is there any noticeable change in gain behavior when patching out multiple waves?

Thanks!
pelang
tnktni wrote:
Additional Q: I am wondering if any users can give insight on the functional/tonal differences between the Variable Slope filter (VCFS) and the Variable Resonance filter (VCFQ)? Judging by pics and demos, it seems like:

- VCFQ has a dedicated ping input and has that unique resonance tone
- VCFS has a crossfade control between 2 inputs

Thanks.


VCFQ feels like driving a Ferrari (i admit i never did that : ) Quite sensitive with lots of power
VCFS is easier going. But the sound is great too
pelang
cloudleft wrote:
Are all 5 of the R*S NTO's wave outputs simultaneously available? If so, is there any noticeable change in gain behavior when patching out multiple waves?

Thanks!


Yes, all simultaneous. Gain stays the same to my ears.
cloudleft
Amazing, thank you!
tnktni
Q: Wondering if the Make Noise MMG is inspired by/comparable to the VCFQ? It looks like they both have multi inputs and a ping/strike input.

Also, how are folks dealing with the input level mismatch between Eurorack level modules and Serge level inputs? I am finding this to be sort of a deal breaker, as adding more preamps/attenuators seems to interface as a bit of a pain. Or are the mismatch not that big of a deal for you, and just go straight in?
pugix
tnktni wrote:
Q: Wondering if the Make Noise MMG is inspired by/comparable to the VCFQ? It looks like they both have multi inputs and a ping/strike input.

Also, how are folks dealing with the input level mismatch between Eurorack level modules and Serge level inputs? I am finding this to be sort of a deal breaker, as adding more preamps/attenuators seems to interface as a bit of a pain. Or are the mismatch not that big of a deal for you, and just go straight in?


There's no mismatch at all. +/-5V is pretty standard. Serge control voltages are also generally +/-5V, because the Serge philosophy is that signal and control distinctions are up to the user, rather than the designer.
tnktni
pugix wrote:
There's no mismatch at all. +/-5V is pretty standard. Serge control voltages are also generally +/-5V, because the Serge philosophy is that signal and control distinctions are up to the user, rather than the designer.


Thanks for the response. I thought the R*S modules expected lower voltage levels and also output lower levels as well? Based on what is mentioned in this Learning Modular video:
https://youtu.be/_NfLt89sHuA
woodster
I certainly find it helpful to attenuate some Euro VCO's going directly into the TWS+, It works ok without attenuation, but it really does shine with some.
As far as wider integration of things like the DUSG, and SSG goes, it's as Pugix says.
tnktni
woodster wrote:
I certainly find it helpful to attenuate some Euro VCO's going directly into the TWS+, It works ok without attenuation, but it really does shine with some.
As far as wider integration of things like the DUSG, and SSG goes, it's as Pugix says.


Ah ok, thanks for the clarification!
stickmann
I plugged in my R*S Euro modules into an oscilloscope and I am only seeing a peak-to-peak voltage of 5v for the NTO, DUSG, and SSG. For the NTO it is bipolar +/- 2.5v and the DUSG / SSG are unipolar, approximately 0 to +5v. Certainly this is a problem for standard +/- 5v Eurorack where many modules will be expecting a 10v peak-to-peak signal. I have noticed it is hit or miss in fully opening Eurorack VCAs with the R*S Serge modules, especially if you want any saturation of the signal. Filter modulation could also be an issue being unable to sweep fully.

I believe the solution to this problem is to buy more R*S EuroSerge or go 4U.
BTG
Anyone know where to get fully assembled systems?
tnktni
stickmann wrote:
I plugged in my R*S Euro modules into an oscilloscope and I am only seeing a peak-to-peak voltage of 5v for the NTO, DUSG, and SSG. For the NTO it is bipolar +/- 2.5v and the DUSG / SSG are unipolar, approximately 0 to +5v. Certainly this is a problem for standard +/- 5v Eurorack where many modules will be expecting a 10v peak-to-peak signal. I have noticed it is hit or miss in fully opening Eurorack VCAs with the R*S Serge modules, especially if you want any saturation of the signal. Filter modulation could also be an issue being unable to sweep fully.

I believe the solution to this problem is to buy more R*S EuroSerge or go 4U.


Thanks for checking this. It appears that video I posted above mentioned similar issues and thus attenuated signal in and amplified signals out. Seems like these modules are intended more as a system-of-its-own more than playing friendly with other Euro modules...
stickmann
I believe the idea was to match the R*S 4U signal levels so that the two formats could interface. I would also think it is a lot of work to convert all of your designs to accommodate the hotter signals in Euro. Unfortunately there are no standards in Euro so this is what we have to deal with.
gummyboy
I think I saw somewhere but I can't find anymore...

Does color around the jacks mean anything on modules?
I think I read that black treats +/-, white does only +, red does cv signal....as I remember. But I am totally not sure.

Big Thanks!!!!!
paterursus
BTG wrote:
Anyone know where to get fully assembled systems?

Systems or modules? Fully assembled modules are available direct from RandomSource as well as from Perfect Circuit in the US - possibly others. Don't know about systems.
stickmann
gummyboy wrote:
I think I saw somewhere but I can't find anymore...

Does color around the jacks mean anything on modules?
I think I read that black treats +/-, white does only +, red does cv signal....as I remember. But I am totally not sure.

Big Thanks!!!!!


You're right on Black (bipolar +/-) and White (unipolar + only) but the Red indicates a Trigger / Square out.
gummyboy
stickmann wrote:

but the Red indicates a Trigger / Square out.

That includes CV out too right? like SEQ8 XL?

What happens if I feed bipolar signal into white colored input like VCM middle section "IN 2"? Does it clip?

Another one fro VCM.
Does "IN 2" on the bottom have similar function as "IN 2" in the middle section as just combining 2 signals?

Big Thanks!!!!!
Waz
Deleted
blackjam
The VCFQ IS amazing, I may be out of euro for a while, but when I get back in, that and the NTO will be at the top of the list
stickmann
gummyboy wrote:
stickmann wrote:

but the Red indicates a Trigger / Square out.

That includes CV out too right? like SEQ8 XL?

What happens if I feed bipolar signal into white colored input like VCM middle section "IN 2"? Does it clip?

Another one fro VCM.
Does "IN 2" on the bottom have similar function as "IN 2" in the middle section as just combining 2 signals?

Big Thanks!!!!!


I'm only seeing trigger signals labeled with red on the Seq8XL. The CV A, B, and A-B are white, as expected. Which CV outs are you referring to?

I try not to let colors discourage me from experimenting. The Seq8XL suggests trying out different trigger waveforms for clocking, for example. There are a few VCM reviews that go over the different inputs and how to achieve interesting feedback. I have seen voltage go higher than +5v on the VCM outputs so might have to consider that but Serge modules have gain control and most Euro can handle signals +/-10v. I only have problems with nasty clipping going into the VCFQ, but that has gain input and the AGC inputs to deal with that. I find the gentle saturation available on most modules (VCM, RingMod, StereoMix) pleasant.
thetaflux
tnktni wrote:
pugix wrote:
There's no mismatch at all. +/-5V is pretty standard. Serge control voltages are also generally +/-5V, because the Serge philosophy is that signal and control distinctions are up tthe user, rather than the designer.


Thanks for the response. I thought the R*S modules expected lower voltage levels and also output lower levels as well? Based on what is mentioned in this Learning Modular video:
https://youtu.be/_NfLt89sHuA


The R*S serge modules all expect +-5V, but many modules in the euro realm go from 0-10v or 0-8v depending on the whims of the mfg. so if you put the raw output of a DPO into the VCFQ the filter will clip and distort. thankfully some modules have built in attenuators on their inputs/gain controls, but having one or two extra attenuators for the few inputs that don't have their own will be useful. by no means is it a dealbreaker though
gummyboy
stickmann wrote:

I'm only seeing trigger signals labeled with red on the Seq8XL. The CV A, B, and A-B are white, as expected. Which CV outs are you referring to?

My bad..... you are right.

stickmann wrote:

I try not to let colors discourage me from experimenting. The Seq8XL suggests trying out different trigger waveforms for clocking, for example. There are a few VCM reviews that go over the different inputs and how to achieve interesting feedback. I have seen voltage go higher than +5v on the VCM outputs so might have to consider that but Serge modules have gain control and most Euro can handle signals +/-10v. I only have problems with nasty clipping going into the VCFQ, but that has gain input and the AGC inputs to deal with that. I find the gentle saturation available on most modules (VCM, RingMod, StereoMix) pleasant.

I see. I will look into it. Thanks!!
InnnerSight
I miss my Verbos random, that thing was so musical.
pugix
thetaflux wrote:
tnktni wrote:
pugix wrote:
There's no mismatch at all. +/-5V is pretty standard. Serge control voltages are also generally +/-5V, because the Serge philosophy is that signal and control distinctions are up tthe user, rather than the designer.


Thanks for the response. I thought the R*S modules expected lower voltage levels and also output lower levels as well? Based on what is mentioned in this Learning Modular video:
https://youtu.be/_NfLt89sHuA


The R*S serge modules all expect +-5V, but many modules in the euro realm go from 0-10v or 0-8v depending on the whims of the mfg. so if you put the raw output of a DPO into the VCFQ the filter will clip and distort. thankfully some modules have built in attenuators on their inputs/gain controls, but having one or two extra attenuators for the few inputs that don't have their own will be useful. by no means is it a dealbreaker though


Doesn't your VCFQ have an input attenuator? It's labelled Gain. There's also an AGC input. My CGS VCFQs have an attenuator on the input.
shanebroderick
Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with the "Equal Power Stereo Mixer"?

I used to have an STS Animal... loved the functionality of this module and sound of the VCA's.

I noticed that this module is one of the only ones in their Serge line to not be Serge Licensed or even say Serge on the module itself and wondered why.
FatRocky
i-m just getting into the euro Serge from Random Source , i already started selling stuff to get more...

one question to older users:

Is it real that once you get into the RS euro Serge seriously then next step is jumping into the 4u wagon? eek! hmmm.....
stickmann
Shanebrodrick, there is a thread in the Eurorack section about the Stereo Mixer. It still looks like the only feedback is my own.

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=191896&start=0&postd ays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

FatRocky, I have a near complete R*S EuroSerge system and am constantly thinking about going 4U but haven't done it yet. I think there are pros and cons to going 4U. Probably the biggest pro for 4U is the Bananas but there is a lack of mixing and utilities available in the current R*S Serge, in my opinion. Eurorack gives you a few miscellaneous extra input attenuators on some modules, which is nice. I'd highly recommend stackcables if you stay in Euro. If you already have some Euro it can mix in well as long as you consider voltage levels. I had a Multistage originally mixed in with my Euroserge but the voltage level mismatch was annoying. Serge feels more like a static instrument to me which can conflict with the Euro world where cool new modules come out every quarter. If you can resist the urge to buy and sell new modules then ultimately I don't think taking a loss to go 4U is worth it. That is what I keep telling myself, anyway.
FatRocky
Is there any thread about dealing with random source euro serge and euro voltage differences?
Biom
I doubt it. Euro voltage differences? - Impossible.
Once people realise they are collecting modules with weird voltage I/O they will most definitely want to go mono-brand to avoid confusion and mess. And mono-brand system is the opposite of what euro is about.
There were some old threads about Make Noise though.

Once you are patching serge with serge you are absolutely fine. You won't be destroying your serge modules with euro either. Sometimes unexpected voltages lead to unexpected results, but serge is a greatly balanced instrument, which is full of surprises just on its own
Navs
I think you just have to know what you're dealing with in terms of levels. If the manufacturer isn't clear about the levels, check them with a voltmeter or oscilloscope.

I don't think owning a single-brand system is any guarantee against the unexpected, especially, as you say Biom, with Serge. Isn't the classic Serge 'gotcha' blowing up your speakers the first time you nudge the Animal's VCA gain above 3? hihi
dooj88
what better place to check than here.. why is the "Variable Q VCF" a noteworthy name? in fact i'd be hard pressed to find a euro filter doesn't have control over the resonance. genuinely curious. i am aware of the notoriety of this filer, i just can't hear anything jumping out at me about it.
thetaflux
dooj88 wrote:
what better place to check than here.. why is the "Variable Q VCF" a noteworthy name? in fact i'd be hard pressed to find a euro filter doesn't have control over the resonance. genuinely curious. i am aware of the notoriety of this filer, i just can't hear anything jumping out at me about it.


it does have VC over resonance. thats that the VC Q input is for. q = resonance. as for the sound, it's one of those things that you really need to hear in person to truly understand the hype.
stickmann
For the name itself, it really isn’t noteworthy. When Serge initially developed his filters there was the VCFQ (variable Q) and VCFS (variable slope). The original VCFS didn’t have resonance control at all. Hence the Variable Q as the differentiating characteristic of that filter.

Serge isn’t very creative with their module names but I like that they generally describe the behavior of the circuit and nothing else. Very utilitarian.
dooj88
stickmann wrote:
For the name itself, it really isn’t noteworthy. When Serge initially developed his filters there was the VCFQ (variable Q) and VCFS (variable slope). The original VCFS didn’t have resonance control at all. Hence the Variable Q as the differentiating characteristic of that filter.

Serge isn’t very creative with their module names but I like that they generally describe the behavior of the circuit and nothing else. Very utilitarian.


ah gotcha, makes total sense. little different from today where names need to be extreme to generate hype.. like Drumfuck or A Plague of Demons (sorry andrew!! your circuits are brilliant! couldn't come up with anything else off the top of my head!)
Biom
Navs wrote:
Isn't the classic Serge 'gotcha' blowing up your speakers the first time you nudge the Animal's VCA gain above 3? hihi


Still blowing mine from time to time with the ResEQ) That is exactly what I was trying to tell - Serge is full of surprises, but it's voltages are not. Jacks are coloured with a reason and help a lot.

Regarding the euro voltage confusion, you don't feel great, when you realise the gate does not fully open the lpg) Personally, being a euro enthusiast, I faced this problem a lot (especially with vco's and filters), along with the feeling that each module is just doing it's own thing and doesn't contribute to an instrument.
I'm not sure, but I think you'll have a problem mixing euro signals with the SSG, for instance.
Checking levels with a voltmeter is way too much for a musician, trying to play an instrument, imho.
12eightyfive
The voltage differences are why I decided to start my Euro Serge explorations with the res filter and the wave multipliers rather than be stranded with too-weak gates from the SSG or dusg. The res filter sounds amazing, the wave multipliers are terrific too! But yeah, going to go with a sport modulator instead of the SSG And keeping my Maths instead of the DUSG.
FatRocky
Is there a way to modify the RS Euro Serge so voltages could be more friendly with standard euro? or will it kill the Serge sound? d'oh!
stickmann
FatRocky wrote:
Is there a way to modify the RS Euro Serge so voltages could be more friendly with standard euro? or will it kill the Serge sound? d'oh!


Not that I can see. There are workarounds but the boards use surface mount so it wouldn't be easy to switch out the components. You can amplify signals going out of the R*S Serge and attenuate signals coming in. I don't think it is as much about the Serge sound as it is about being able to fully modulate non-Serge modules, specifically VCAs and filters.

Just to be clear, there is no Euro 'standard'. That is the real problem. I feel strongly that this is a serious problem with the format and that it would be beneficial, in the long term, for the big hitters in Euro to promote a standard. It is such a mess though because the manufacturers that have to alter their designs would get screwed financially.
Biom
FatRocky wrote:
Is there a way to modify the RS Euro Serge so voltages could be more friendly with standard euro? or will it kill the Serge sound? d'oh!

It would be much easier to answer your question, if you define, what sound are you after. What is missing for you in the serge universe you are planning to acquire with euro?
If we are talking just effects and processing - no need to worry about voltages.
If you want THAT (see the double meaning) serge sound, you'd need serge modules, which is obvious.
The Grump
FatRocky wrote:
Is there a way to modify the RS Euro Serge so voltages could be more friendly with standard euro? or will it kill the Serge sound? d'oh!


Disting Mk4?
Navs
I agree with the point about not wanting to be a scientist when making music, but I think that in the case of modular synths, knowing your voltages falls within the category of knowing your instrument.

So, for example, where a guitarist will change strings (or whatever it is they do) I look and listen for modules that work well together or try to understand what they do well and not so well, e.g. which envelope works best with which VCA.

Even within the Serge world, I think you do have to know your voltages, e.g. there is a difference hitting the VCFQ with unipolar as opposed to bipolar signals; the input sensitivity does matter. Or? hmmm.....
FatRocky
i want to know the voltages i don´t want to fuck up my modules eek! because they are expensive
FatRocky
The Grump wrote:
FatRocky wrote:
Is there a way to modify the RS Euro Serge so voltages could be more friendly with standard euro? or will it kill the Serge sound? d'oh!


Disting Mk4?


yes but how do i know the cv tolerance of my RS modules cv inputs?
Biom
Navs wrote:
which envelope works best with which VCA.


Regarding the fact there are 6453 euro modules registered on grid (and more to come), you may end up spending your whole life choosing the best env. Once you do, I really doubt the inspiration will be there for making some music.

As for the mono systems/instruments, learning your voltages is a natural and easy process, it is even written in the manual and, most definitely, opens a whole world for experimentation.

Absolutely agree with you on Serge. It's patching philosophy and interface is everything one may desire. Even when going nuts patching it, you clearly see/understand what is going where and what signal types are used as modulators.

I think, a guitarist is not the best example here. Learning your instrument is important and worth spending your life on, but if you are a solo independent composer/producer, you have to learn lots of stuff from acoustics to recording and beyond. You can't cover everything, so compromises are a necessity.
Self-limitation is a good helper here, since we are not good at decisions. I really believe an Animal or 2-3 M-class panels are more than enough to be creative with patching things. You will learn the basics really fast and still will be learning and discovering things over the years. Endless process and spares lots of time on developing recording techniques, collaborations or studying the history of art or music.
250U of euro? Well, that always made me laugh and is nothing, but a consumerism to me.
Biom
FatRocky wrote:
i want to know the voltages i don´t want to fuck up my modules eek! because they are expensive


What do you mean by "fucking them up"? As being said earlier, you won't do any damage to them, if that is your concern.
Good luck knowing your euro voltages though. As for the serge, it's clearly written in the manual. Takes a couple of hours reading, re-reading and you are there.
paterursus
FatRocky wrote:
i want to know the voltages i don´t want to fuck up my modules eek! because they are expensive

Most modules have input tolerances that are high enough to handle anything another module might give them. A bigger problem is that you might not get a full range of modulation from module to module. VCAs help with this, but you are still right to want to know the voltage levels. I started a thread some time ago (link here) trying to pin down the I/O voltage levels of different modules. If you look at the PDF there you'll see the scope of the problem. There's a complete lack of consistency, sometimes even within a single module (Doepfer Quad LFO, for example). Contrary to what has been said in this thread, it is not a straightforward matter to find out these levels. They're not always published, and in a couple of cases I had to contact the maker directly to get the answers. Unfortunately I never got to R*S, and time constraints meant I had to give up the project. I can understand your frustration and your desire to get answers on this. You might try reaching out to R*S directly and get the levels. If you get an answer, PM me if you don't mind, and I'll update my list.
Villarceau
I only have the euro DSG from Random Source and never thought about voltage levels much, just modulated the hell out of it and never had issues except sometimes it drops out of self-cycle when I use it as an osc and admittedly feed it some weird stuff in all inputs and I need to attenuate a little and just reflick the self-cycle switch. I think this whole voltage discussion is not really relevant in this thread, but then again what do I know? I use doepfer VCAs and they seem to respond very well. There is a bi-polar output that I use strategically when needed but mostly only when I use it as an osc, but that is superstition, never had an issue just using the unipolar output either if I forgot. It is the counterpoint to my control forge and satellite combo, and a formidable stepbrother to my oldschool Catalyst Audio buchla osc clone often in crazy cross-modulation patches. The DUSG is legendary for good reason, I am very happy to have it in my mostly digital system. It does not come with utilities like maths does but I am pretty convinced it has a larger range and precision than maths on the functon generator side of things, but then again I never had maths, not seeing how I could be missing anything though, rather the contrary.
MindMachine
dooj88 wrote:
what better place to check than here.. why is the "Variable Q VCF" a noteworthy name? in fact i'd be hard pressed to find a euro filter doesn't have control over the resonance. genuinely curious. i am aware of the notoriety of this filer, i just can't hear anything jumping out at me about it.


Serge designed this in the early-mid 1970's when maybe one or no other VCF's had Variable VC Q. I think an Emu VCF may have a couple of years after Serge. Did ARP 2500? Point being, it was very unique at the time and could be very musical. That is why so many modern VCF's now have it. While I enjoy the Serge VCF's I don't find them to be 'next tier' above my other favorites. I do enjoy how they are full featured and somewhat unique with some ins and outs. The Trigger In on the VCQ is really cool. Ive never used the Variable Slope VCF but would love to try it out.
FatRocky
Biom wrote:
FatRocky wrote:
i want to know the voltages i don´t want to fuck up my modules eek! because they are expensive


What do you mean by "fucking them up"? As being said earlier, you won't do any damage to them, if that is your concern.
Good luck knowing your euro voltages though. As for the serge, it's clearly written in the manual. Takes a couple of hours reading, re-reading and you are there.


Manual?
Villarceau
FatRocky wrote:
Biom wrote:
FatRocky wrote:
i want to know the voltages i don´t want to fuck up my modules eek! because they are expensive


What do you mean by "fucking them up"? As being said earlier, you won't do any damage to them, if that is your concern.
Good luck knowing your euro voltages though. As for the serge, it's clearly written in the manual. Takes a couple of hours reading, re-reading and you are there.


Manual?


There is no manual indeed, as far as I know. But I have also neve heard about any module fucking up another module. Has that ever ever happened? Really? Because my avid reading of Muffs might not have been enough then
FatRocky
Biom wrote:
FatRocky wrote:
i want to know the voltages i don´t want to fuck up my modules eek! because they are expensive


What do you mean by "fucking them up"? As being said earlier, you won't do any damage to them, if that is your concern.
Good luck knowing your euro voltages though. As for the serge, it's clearly written in the manual. Takes a couple of hours reading, re-reading and you are there.


Haven’t you heard about damage by overloading the inputs?
Doesn’t it happen to eurorack modules?

I wouldn’t be exposing my ignorance if there was a manual believe me!
Navs
You won't damage them but you might not get the result you expect - that is what I was saying.

This is another instance of needing to know about voltages: on the most basic level, the Euro and Serge systems run off +/-12V power supplies. That is a span of 24V. On a working system, you can not exceed those boundaries.

e.g. if you patch four unipolar 10V signals into a Euro mixer, you will not get 40V at the output. The output will be clipped at something under 12V (depending on the circuitry/design).

To pull this thread back on topic, my point about Random Source not adjusting the tolerances for, for example, the VCFQ, means that people might not be getting the experience they were expecting. That's because they might be feeding the filter with a (totally typical/ standard) 10V pp Euro audio signal, when the filter actually wants half that level.

I think this has repercussions, both musical and in terms of reputation for the module or even brand, especially for a so-called 'legendary' and sought-after filter like the VCFQ: after years of reading about it, it's finally available to a broader market, people buy it, over-load it, and say 'meh, what was all the fuss about?' wink
paterursus
For the most part, modules will simply clip an overvoltage or ignore a negative input where only positive is expected. Navs' point is the one I was trying to make above - the bigger issue is that you might not get the modulation range you expect. You might have an input that expects 0V to +10V, and you are feeding it a 0V to +5V source. Or the other way around, and your input clips or saturates easily. Damage isn't the sort of thing I'd generally worry about.
Sleipnir
Just to bring it back around to the love:

Added a 2nd DUSG, because awesome. Once I finish building my Klee, (the space with the Mobius filler), I dare say this system will be “done” (famous last words).

As far as voltages, I haven’t had any issues besides needing to tone down raw VCO power when going into the TWM - and helpfully that module has the top section to do just that.
The DUSG fully opens (at least enough for me) the Malekko VCA, the bubblesound QVCA, and the Intellijel VCA. If I need to overload them, I flip to Exp response.
Also, I can count on one finger the times I’ve put any modulation 100%, because it sounds like shit. This is why we have attenuators & mixers. meh
FatRocky
it would be awesome if we can get the info about voltage levels and tolerances for all Random Source euro Serge line of modules. I understand some believe Serge is all about not expecting but a bit of knowledge on voltage levels could make things a bit better IMHO


Thanks all for the info thumbs up
pugix
I finished building a DUSG.

http://pugix.com/synth/randomsource-serge-dusg/

Does anybody know what that S/E header might be for?
paterursus
pugix wrote:
I finished building a DUSG.

http://pugix.com/synth/randomsource-serge-dusg/

Does anybody know what that S/E header might be for?

That's interesting. I have a 2016 DUSG I just got around to building a couple of weeks ago. It doesn't have those header pins, so they must have added them for 2017.
Biom
Navs wrote:
my point about Random Source not adjusting the tolerances for, for example, the VCFQ, means that people might not be getting the experience they were expecting.


Most importantly RS is the most "original" or "official" serge today. Their aim was not to satisfy euro market with another amazing filter, but to make this beautiful instrument (not fancy modules) more affordable and updated with newer technology. I doubt people would go euro-serge if the sound is different from the 4u equivalent.

Euro format has lots of good points and, most importantly, every cat and dog has a case of euro nowadays. So what you can do is to fill your amazing existing Elite case with RS and throw in a couple of distinguished euro designs (e.g. PEG, Turing Machine). Regarding the fact that you own already a good euro case and some modules to fund the RS euro-animal it looks really tempting to dive into serge world. That's the only point in a euro-serge to me. Otherwise, 4u can't be beaten.
cloudleft
User of the SEQ8 XL... is there any kind of "priority" between the different modes of address?

Like let's say you've got some PWM going into Up/Down, plus some self patched Stage Selection coming from certain Stage Gate Outputs, AND you're slamming those manual stage select buttons. What happens?

If the buttons have top priority, can you hold a button and thereby 'freeze' the sequence, bypassing the other modes of address?
Avjr
cloudleft wrote:
If the buttons have top priority, can you hold a button and thereby 'freeze' the sequence, bypassing the other modes of address?


I have the 4U equivalent, the Sequencer/Programmer and if i press and hold a button the sequence freezes on that note until you let go of the push button.
the bad producer
Biom wrote:
...Most importantly RS is the most "original" or "official" serge today....


This is not true, there is also Elby with the official (and arguably more original) EuroSerge line... They are also a lot more affordable...

Serge signal levels tend to be 0-5V, +/- 2.5V, that sort of thing, higher and they tend to clip (the audio that is). One can trim the DUSG to higher output level at the expense of a lower maximum frequency.
cloudleft
Avjr wrote:

I have the 4U equivalent, the Sequencer/Programmer and if i press and hold a button the sequence freezes on that note until you let go of the push button.


Cool, seems like it's a pretty expressive instrument, then!
suthnear
I love love love the VCFS
cloudleft
I picked up the SEQ8 (euro version) and I'm super happy with it. It's large enough and the buttons are spaced widely enough that it really can work like a keyboard with room for two hands to move.

Deceptively simple, quite deep actually, and the routing options are great. It's also very WYSIWYG which I like.
bodydouble
Troubleshooting question: I moved my modules to a new studio-style case with 4 Synthrotek boards, and everything seems to be working perfectly except my poor VCFQ.

It's definitely plugged in the right direction, so I don't think burnout happened because of that.

There are short moments where sound comes through, but then it fades away. I bought it used DIYed, and had been working fine for about a month beforehand, so just wondering if anyone had experienced something like this, and see if it might be an easy fix.
TreB
Wanna check out the wave multipliers & triple waveshapers
TreB
Anybody any thoughts or experience how the wave multipliers and triple waveshapers compare to the TipTop Audio fold processor?
Not feature-wise but plain folding sound/character ...
TreB
Gotta get that RES EQ too
breadman
http://randomsource.net/

How about Serge himself being named CIO? To me Ralf and co are running the game right now. So exciting!
shanebroderick
Very Exciting that Serge himself has joined the Random Source team.
FatRocky
cool
cloudleft
I had this idea to use the TWS in 2-operator circular FM patches to shape the waves before feeding them back into one another's FM inputs. I've enjoyed using the DUSG for a kind of lo-fi integration/LPF vibe in this context, but wonder about the TWS. I don't have a TWS or a way to try this out, so I'm wondering if anyone else has tried something similar?
FatRocky
R*S love love
luketeaford
FatRocky wrote:
R*S love love


Beautiful -- I thought you were going 4U Serge?
FatRocky
luketeaford wrote:
FatRocky wrote:
R*S love love


Beautiful -- I thought you were going 4U Serge?


Yes , it´s a good bye baby picture. I´m taking it to a friend´s studio tomorrow- waah
luketeaford
Nice! I'm sure your friend will have a great time with it!
shanebroderick
I'm hoping to put in an order to Patch Point for the Equal Power Stereo Mixer for later this week.... I havent seen much feedback on the module but really miss the sound of my STS VCA's.
kylverstone
I got a CGS Quad Slope in a trade deal a few months ago and was amazed at what you could do with it, so it got me looking at Serge for the first time. After deciding that I didn't really want to go 4u right now, I ended up at the random*source website. Big mistake, and the start of my urge to Serge!

After selling off a bunch of unused modules, I now have this mostly RS setup, and I'm absolutely loving it (although still learning it's capabilities)!

gummyboy
Hi .
My NTO outputs different vpp depending on waveforms.
Sine outputs -2.5V ~ + 2.5V but all others output 0 ~ 5V.

Is this something wrong? Or do I need calibration? I bought pre-built one.
Rudloe
kylverstone wrote:
I got a CGS Quad Slope in a trade deal a few months ago and was amazed at what you could do with it, so it got me looking at Serge for the first time. After deciding that I didn't really want to go 4u right now, I ended up at the random*source website. Big mistake, and the start of my urge to Serge!

After selling off a bunch of unused modules, I now have this mostly RS setup, and I'm absolutely loving it (although still learning it's capabilities)!




Very nice!
Rudloe
stickmann wrote:
Here is my system:



Obscured by light is the VCM.


How do you like the Sequencer?
Rudloe
Here's my lot.
Demi Jon
I've integrated a VCFQ, VCM, TWS+ and ResEQ into my mixed Euro system and loving them. I play noisy stuff where experiment and chance are welcomed, so not overly concerned with mismatched voltages for the most part.

However, if I move in DUSG territory for instance, and want to fully open a standard VCA, will a scaler like the Happy Nerding 3xMIA work? Will scaling take the 0-5v (if that's what the DUSG uses) and convert it to 0-10v, or will scaling it just move it to 5-10v?

To be clear, is 'scaling' in a module like the new MISO, the 3xMIA, etc., amplification of the signal or is it just adding an offset?
wavecircle
gummyboy wrote:
Hi .
My NTO outputs different vpp depending on waveforms.
Sine outputs -2.5V ~ + 2.5V but all others output 0 ~ 5V.

Is this something wrong? Or do I need calibration? I bought pre-built one.


Typically on a Serge system the black outputs are bipolar -2.5v ~ +2.5v, blue outs will be unipolar 0~5V.
Rudloe
Here's the pic
gummyboy
wavecircle wrote:

Typically on a Serge system the black outputs are bipolar -2.5v ~ +2.5v, blue outs will be unipolar 0~5V.


I see... Thank you.

Do you mean white one? Mine is eurorack version and doesn't have blue one.
What about red output which is pulse output?
ludotex
I believe white is unipolar and red is trigger/gate/pulse
Tumulishroomaroom
Instantly fell in love with the Res EQ and now I have a VQVCF on my way too ! Can you hear it ?


Ping...
Pin
gggg...
phineas
I did it the other way round: fell in love with the Qvcf quite some time ago but got the ResEQ only recently. It's such a great module; a glorious drone-machine.

I'm sure you'll love the Qvcf. It sounds absolutely fantastic when pinged.
Ossicle
So are all euro R*S modules same voltage as standard Serge, i.e. lower than most euro modules?

Say I want to use the DUSG as the heart of a small system of mostly non R*S modules. Do I need at least one dedicated attenuator and amplifier (gain) for each side of the DUSG to match the lower voltages?

Which would mean an awful lot of extra HP compared to something like Maths (which I didn't like that much).

I love my recently acquired wave multipliers but the voltage mismatch does not really seem practical in a small system of mostly non R*S modules.
Triglav
The DUSG can be calibrated to a higher output voltage. I have mine set at 0-8V without a problem.
Ossicle
Triglav wrote:
The DUSG can be calibrated to a higher output voltage. I have mine set at 0-8V without a problem.


Thanks, that's good to know. So if you calibrate it to a wider range, I suppose it lowers the resolution of the Rise / Fall pots a bit, right?

How about the input, does it clip at 10V?
Tumulishroomaroom
phineas wrote:
I did it the other way round: fell in love with the Qvcf quite some time ago but got the ResEQ only recently. It's such a great module; a glorious drone-machine.

I'm sure you'll love the Qvcf. It sounds absolutely fantastic when pinged.

Res EQ is absolutely fantastic. I love riding the edge of feedback when feeding it Morphagene loops; it gives so much life to short drone loops !

And I had some time to play with the VQVCF and indeed it's ping heaven. It's really nice to have the dedicated trig and v/oct input. Such a pleasant sound. I have yet to really put it through its pace as a filter though.

I've been bitten by the R*S bug and have now ordered a Wave Multiplier smile
phineas
Yeah, I absolutely love the VCFQ love .

Still have to explore its use as a CV processor:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=75377&highlight=

I'm sure you'll like the wave multiplier as well. The middle section is fantastic and it has a very nice VCA, too.
Plus it's waveshaping will be a great combination if you want to try the VCFQ as a "normal" filter more.
Tumulishroomaroom
Random*Source family :

Rudloe


Awaiting the Active-Pro/Noise/Cv-Pro
stickmann
Rudloe wrote:


Awaiting the Active-Pro/Noise/Cv-Pro


This is amazing. I love the rainbow knobs.

Do you find yourself yearning for another DUSG?
Rudloe
Not really, I have 2 NTO's in there and use two Cwejman CTG's as envelopes. So the DUSG is generally on VCO or FM duties. Im very happy to have this system, I love it!


stickmann wrote:
Rudloe wrote:


Awaiting the Active-Pro/Noise/Cv-Pro


This is amazing. I love the rainbow knobs.

Do you find yourself yearning for another DUSG?
Peouse
Hi there,
I bought the PCB and PANEL for the DUAL WASP Filter almost a month ago now, and haven't received anything. I tried to contact Ralf with whom I was in contact regarding delivery address but since then, nothing, 3 emails and no answer.
My account has been debited tough...

Do you know if something happened? Anyone having some trouble communicating with them?

Thx a lot!
nomanslad
I cannot wait to build a ResonantEQ, the feedback mode sounds so dense and gorgeous. Does anyone have any nice drones to share ?
Peouse
Peouse wrote:
Hi there,
I bought the PCB and PANEL for the DUAL WASP Filter almost a month ago now, and haven't received anything. I tried to contact Ralf with whom I was in contact regarding delivery address but since then, nothing, 3 emails and no answer.
My account has been debited tough...

Do you know if something happened? Anyone having some trouble communicating with them?

Thx a lot!


Ok I received everything, just for anyone new here, be patient and don't expect answers I guess they are really busy smile
Rudloe
Superbooth time.All these companies are busy with that.

I got an Active Pro few weeks ago and it came within a week.

They're usually pretty responsive Boba Fett
Rudloe
If anyone is at Superbooth, try and find out what's coming next in Euro... i'd love to know cool cool cool
RowanH
Just bought a bigger case which has left me with an intellijel 4u 104hp case going spare. Already have the NTO and the 1u, would like to use this as its owns system for the most part, maybe with some external sequencing. Those with more serge experience, is this viable as a self contained synth? Anything you would change?

stickmann
RowanH wrote:
Just bought a bigger case which has left me with an intellijel 4u 104hp case going spare. Already have the NTO and the 1u, would like to use this as its owns system for the most part, maybe with some external sequencing. Those with more serge experience, is this viable as a self contained synth? Anything you would change?


This would be an amazing self contained synth. Do it, I love my R*S EuroSerge system so much which is your plan plus another DUSG, SEQ8XL, and the Mixer / CV Pro module.
cptnal
I had similar ideas myself, and if I was doing it for real my system would look much like yours.

What I discovered though is that "Serge" is more an approach than a set of modules. I have much of the functionality already - it's just that the design of the Serge modules channels your thinking in a different way. So I've been reading about the modules and how they're patched and trying to apply that to my own patching.

But hey, if you've got the wherewithal and you want to do it... do it! This is fun!
phineas
Thats an excellent setup and you'll have lots of fun with it.
You could think about swapping the NTO for a ResEQ but that's a matter of personal taste I would say.
Any way it will be great!
RowanH
Thanks everyone. My route into modular synthesis was inspired back in 2005 by KFW's multiples album, which included a handful of Serge based pieces, so it's always had a certain romance. I like to divide the euro up into workable chunks rather than seeing it as one system and it was the idea of taking some of my serge inspired modules and doing this when I thought, actually, a small Euro serge makes sense and is less intimidating than it used to be (both in diy and synthesis sense).
stickmann
For those that have used the Euro Triple Waveshaper+, are the input pots used to attenuate incoming signals or does it control the amount of waveshaping applied?
luketeaford
stickmann wrote:
For those that have used the Euro Triple Waveshaper+, are the input pots used to attenuate incoming signals or does it control the amount of waveshaping applied?


I'll check tomorrow to confirm, but I am almost certain they are attenuators.

EDIT: they are attenuators. VC 1 seems to turn up the input to the TWS and VC 2 seems to turn it down.
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