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Using Clock Dividers/Multipliers at audio rates
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules  
Author Using Clock Dividers/Multipliers at audio rates
handsomepanther
Just got done playing around with the idea of clocking my QCD at audio rates and feeding the 4 outputs into a RXMX and was getting some pretty fun sounds, by first passing the 4 outs into a Quadra, adjusting the attack, decay i was able to alter the timbre of each "voice" so to speak..
the end result from the RXMX was sort of a cascading harmonically related 4 oscillator sound. Kind of reminiscent of a Verbos Harmonic Oscillator..

I was just curious if anyone in the wiggling cosmos knows of ways to expand on this idea... I was definitely hitting a limit where the QCD no longer tracked pitch so I thought, what about Analog Clock Dividers.. Versus Digital.. but there isn't much out there i could find..

I've only found Time Runner by pitsburgh modular, but the intervals seem set without the ability to change or modulate them..

just wanted to throw this out there to see if anyone else has experimented with this kind of idea in their setup.

Would be cool if such a thing as an Analog clock Multiplier/Divider that tracked audio rates existed, with the ability to modulate clock division&multiplication..
Filternauts
"Analog clock Multiplier/Divider"
Like without TTL...CMOS...ECT...

Sounds like a lot of transistors and capacitors and resistors... A lot.

Like

worth....
suitandtieguy
just in case anyone's curious, STG Soundlabs .DIV, .PRI, and .BIN all work with up to 10KHz inputs.
Opnotic
SSSR VC divider does a very good job at this in my experience and responds great to CV.
Here's a vid I made a while back to show its behaviour:
hyena
[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/217214882" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_use r=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]

a simple square wave into CLOCK IN of Electro Harmonix CLOCKWORKS, 4 clock divider outs mixed into doepfer a-138 exp mixer, filtered via doepfer a-101-2 in lpf mode, modulated by mutable instruments tides. echo from makenoise echophon, reverb from elektron monomachine
mbartkow
handsomepanther wrote:

Would be cool if such a thing as an Analog clock Multiplier/Divider that tracked audio rates existed, with the ability to modulate clock division&multiplication..


Digital (as in digital counter, not microprocessor-based) clock dividers are perfectly happy with audio rates. They are capable of dividing frequencies up to MHz range. Analog (but also employing some digital circuitry) frequency multipliers do exist. One popular example is a PLL loop with a divider in the feedback. Check out A-196.
handsomepanther
mbartkow wrote:


Digital (as in digital counter, not microprocessor-based) clock dividers are perfectly happy with audio rates. They are capable of dividing frequencies up to MHz range. Analog (but also employing some digital circuitry) frequency multipliers do exist. One popular example is a PLL loop with a divider in the feedback. Check out A-196.


Thanks for all the input guys and I'll definitely be lookng deeper into the a-196
Curious about how to know whether a module is digital counter based VS microprocessor..
I was looking at small modules like the animodule tik tok and the 4ms SCM
As possible options for a small configuration but I assume they're both microprocessor based..
Do you know off hand of any modules that are digital counter based that can track at audio rates?
Opnotic
I'm not sure I know what you are asking about anymore. The SSSR VC divider demod in the video above is 'microchip' based (PIC chip I believe), and I think it could be tough to find a better sub harmonic generator (if the clock your feeding it is audio rate, that's what you get in relation to the original audio signal).

The RCD/SCM can do audio rate fairly well I believe (I also have them, but I've never tried actually). I could see the Atmel chip inside them having an upper limit tho, not sure.

I've heard that the circuit abbey G8 can do it too. I'm not sure what you have on offer for sequencers, but you can feed a square wave oscillator at audio rate as the clock for a great many sequencers out there. (The metropolis is not so good at this tho). Even the Korg SQ-1 can do lower range audio I know.

I don't know if you can get much benefit by making a divide between analog and digital for behaviour at dividing clocks. Any digital 'microprocessor based' oscillator out there that has 'sync', is performing actions on the wave form that put the wave form start point in time with what is measured at the sync jack which is often another oscillator at audio rate be it analog or digital. Microprocessors can have little difficulty operating at frequencies as 'slow' as those that are audible. =p
geecen
The most basic clock dividers (as in cheap and only even divisions, with no funny business) will all most likely work at audio rates. Using CMOS chips is much easier and cheaper than microprocessors (at least in the small quantities in which Euro modules are made). See the basic Doepfer ones or Ladik ones for starters. You can also do this with logic BTW. Again, look for the basic ones and they will probably be CMOS based and perfectly happy to go up to audio rates.

Other fun thing to do at audio rates: VC switches! cool
Videographics
For the purposes of this discussion I expect people are interested in how much of the audio range is usable with a frequency divider. 200Hz is technically audio rate, but a frequency divider maxing out at 200Hz is not nearly as usable as a device that works at up to 20KHz.

STG reports 10KHz. Can anyone else please report on the usable upper limits for input frequencies on various frequency dividers? Apparently some do, but most I’ve found can’t work above bass frequencies. Thx in advance.
luketeaford
The NCOM can divide super cleanly up to as high as my oscillators will go.
Addam
No firsthand experience but the LZX Castle series of modules are designed for use at video rates so even upper frequency audio would be no problem. I believe the Counter would be the basic clock divider equivalent. Downside if you don't diy is that you may need to have someone build one up for you.

LZX Castle series
stoiker
Opnotic wrote:
The RCD/SCM can do audio rate fairly well I believe (I also have them, but I've never tried actually). I could see the Atmel chip inside them having an upper limit tho, not sure.


Yeah, I've seen it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilo52K8Oje8 starting at 16:50. One of the reasons I want to build a RCD.
Videographics
From a quick test it looks like Disting’s Clockable LFO algorithm [B-6] will work at any frequency in the audio range, however, above 300Hz or so you start to get all sorts of artifacts that sound like sidebands and aliasing. The artifacts actually sound super cool! But you might be disappointed if you’re looking for something that serves up a simple multiple or division of an input in the mid to high frequency range.
knifey
The Frap Tools Falistri (which I just got in the mail today) has a built-in clock divider that definitely works at audio rate as a sub oscillator.
Videographics
knifey wrote:
The Frap Tools Falistri (which I just got in the mail today) has a built-in clock divider that definitely works at audio rate as a sub oscillator.

Audio rate as in 300Hz or 6KHz?
simonefabbri
Videographics wrote:
knifey wrote:
The Frap Tools Falistri (which I just got in the mail today) has a built-in clock divider that definitely works at audio rate as a sub oscillator.

Audio rate as in 300Hz or 6KHz?

More than 40KHz
Videographics
simonefabbri wrote:

More than 40KHz

40KHz?! My dog thanks you hyper
coolshirtdotjpg
I'm very suprised no one has mentioned the doepfer A-160/161 or the 152, both can do the business you are looking for, for next to nothing.
Videographics
coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
I'm very suprised no one has mentioned the doepfer A-160/161 or the 152, both can do the business you are looking for, for next to nothing.

So, again, the question... these Doepfer modules work at 300Hz? 6KHz? 40KHz?
coolshirtdotjpg
Videographics wrote:
coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
I'm very suprised no one has mentioned the doepfer A-160/161 or the 152, both can do the business you are looking for, for next to nothing.

So, again, the question... these Doepfer modules work at 300Hz? 6KHz? 40KHz?


And, again, the answer, the doepfer modules will do the business.

At least 10khz, in my experience. They just use CMOS chips, no microcontrollers or ADCs.
Videographics
coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
At least 10khz, in my experience. They just use CMOS chips, no microcontrollers or ADCs.

Good to know. There are so many different approaches to creating this functionality, it’s important to ask before purchasing a divider you plan to use in the upper audio range.

I had a bad surprise when I learned too late that the upper range on Bastl’s Little Nerd was too low to provide sub-octaves on melodies in the normal audio range.

(BTW, how’s the modular scene Santa Cruz?)
coolshirtdotjpg
Videographics wrote:
coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
At least 10khz, in my experience. They just use CMOS chips, no microcontrollers or ADCs.

Good to know. There are so many different approaches to creating this functionality, it’s important to ask before purchasing a divider you plan to use in the upper audio range.

I had a bad surprise when I learned too late that the upper range on Bastl’s Little Nerd was too low to provide sub-octaves on melodies in the normal audio range.

(BTW, how’s the modular scene Santa Cruz?)


Not nearly as much action as when I was living in Oakland, but I have more or less brought the music department at the university into it. Last year David Dunn and I acquired 6 or 7 cases of euro for an undergrad performance group. I'm working with a few of the DMA students there on euro projects.

It has the history, with EMU founded there (they still have the EMU modular system), people from Cycling 74 live, and UA is also located in SC, so it has historically been a fairly interesting place for electronic music development, if not performance (although I have friends who are working to change that).

As far as I could tell, the doepfer stuff was flawless for creating sub-oscillators. I eventually sold them, as I didn't find myself using them for that consistently.
Videographics
Cool.

For anyone interested, I sometimes use my Befaco Rampage as a divider at audio rates. Related to that, this should be of interest to someone following this thread: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=169465&sid=2808870b7 0211ca8e8710ddf30d31382
coolshirtdotjpg
The ADC portion of XOAC Drezno could be thought of as a non-linear clock divider as well.
Videographics
Or, you could always use an old fashioned clock divider...

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