DIY 4ms SMR

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webboy
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Post by webboy » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:39 am

Altitude909 wrote:here, I'll make it simple for you guys:



That is what I used for my build

The only issue is the 47 uF parts are the wrong size
Very kind of you to share your BOM, and I don't expect support from you, but just wondering about the encoder. You used a 24PPR with detents. Do you like the action it gives? I assume it works fine, I just made the assumption that 20PPR would sync perfectly with the number of LEDs - I *guess* you'd never notice that unless you had a (probably pointless) pointer on the rotate knob. I also guess detents are also desirable?

Any feedback greatly appreciated. Might not seem like a big deal to some, but the action/feel aspects are important to many, I'm sure. Thanks.

BTW, have no idea how I missed the PEC*12* series for a 12mm encoder. :/

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Post by av500 » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:53 am

webboy wrote: You used a 24PPR with detents. Do you like the action it gives? I assume it works fine, I just made the assumption that 20PPR would sync perfectly with the number of LEDs - I *guess* you'd never notice that unless you had a (probably pointless) pointer on the rotate knob. I also guess detents are also desirable?
even if you had a pointer on the knob, when the unit boots up it has no idea how the encoder knob is oriented, so it the pointer would rarely line up correctly.

I have a module with 16 LEDs in a circle and use 24 position encoders and never had an issue with that.

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Post by webboy » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:54 am

av500 wrote:
webboy wrote: You used a 24PPR with detents. Do you like the action it gives? I assume it works fine, I just made the assumption that 20PPR would sync perfectly with the number of LEDs - I *guess* you'd never notice that unless you had a (probably pointless) pointer on the rotate knob. I also guess detents are also desirable?
even if you had a pointer on the knob, when the unit boots up it has no idea how the encoder knob is oriented, so it the pointer would rarely line up correctly.

I have a module with 16 LEDs in a circle and use 24 position encoders and never had an issue with that.
What I meant was that *if* you had a pointer, I assume you'd see the pointer out of sync on the SMR in relation to the LEDs - sorta like what analog clock arms look like when you spin the set dial. It's just curiosity there - but your answer was what I really wanted. PPR doesn't necessarily have to match. I still wonder though about the SMR. Imagine if you had a 10PPR - one rotation would move the LEDs position (and affect the function) half way, right? Even without a pointer I would expect that to be noticeable.

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Post by synchromesh » Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:10 am

Altitude909 wrote:here, I'll make it simple for you guys:



That is what I used for my build

The only issue is the 47 uF parts are the wrong size
Thanks for that Altitude909! I have incorporated your part numbers into my MI PCB FB DIY Reference spreadsheet.

EDIT: Added the correct 47uF part number EEE-FK1C470UR, cheers!
Last edited by synchromesh on Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Altitude909
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Post by Altitude909 » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:00 am

webboy wrote:
Altitude909 wrote:here, I'll make it simple for you guys:



That is what I used for my build

The only issue is the 47 uF parts are the wrong size
Very kind of you to share your BOM, and I don't expect support from you, but just wondering about the encoder. You used a 24PPR with detents. Do you like the action it gives? I assume it works fine, I just made the assumption that 20PPR would sync perfectly with the number of LEDs - I *guess* you'd never notice that unless you had a (probably pointless) pointer on the rotate knob. I also guess detents are also desirable?

Any feedback greatly appreciated. Might not seem like a big deal to some, but the action/feel aspects are important to many, I'm sure. Thanks.

BTW, have no idea how I missed the PEC*12* series for a 12mm encoder. :/
24 is the common type, simple as that. You are never stepping through individual steps with the encoder, you are sweeping across a range so the resolution of the encoder isn't relevant (and the leds move so there isnt any reference anyway). Encoders like this dont work on "X detents", it's only increment and decrement pins. You are thinking about an encoder where each position has an output and this isnt that.

Whoever is merging the BOM needs to fix the 47 uF to the right size (namely EEE-FK1C470UR)

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Post by webboy » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:18 am

Awesome! Thanks again for your input.

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spotta
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Post by spotta » Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:19 am

Altitude's BOM as a Mouser project.
http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/Pr ... ce326d4379

I haven't ordered this myself yet so consider it a Beta, its missing the 1,10,100k resistors & BAT54S as I have these in stock already but includes the correct 47u caps.
some caps and resistors have been rounded up to 10 for price breaks.
Hopefully it'll save some of you some time
:tu:

edit - missing the 26 RGB LEDs too as I am getting elsewhere

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Post by webboy » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:13 pm

Cheaper, lower spec SPDT toggle switches. I do believe these are the ones in the photo on 4MS's site.

E-switch 200MSP1T1B1M2QEH - on-on (on|on)

E-switch 200MSP3T1B1M2QEH - on-off-on (on|off|on)

Both backordered on Mouser of course.

webboy
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Post by webboy » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:26 pm

webboy wrote: Very kind of you to share your BOM, and I don't expect support from you, but just wondering about the encoder. You used a 24PPR with detents. Do you like the action it gives? I assume it works fine, I just made the assumption that 20PPR would sync perfectly with the number of LEDs - I *guess* you'd never notice that unless you had a (probably pointless) pointer on the rotate knob. I also guess detents are also desirable?

Any feedback greatly appreciated. Might not seem like a big deal to some, but the action/feel aspects are important to many, I'm sure. Thanks.

BTW, have no idea how I missed the PEC*12* series for a 12mm encoder. :/
Altitude909 wrote: 24 is the common type, simple as that. You are never stepping through individual steps with the encoder, you are sweeping across a range so the resolution of the encoder isn't relevant (and the leds move so there isnt any reference anyway). Encoders like this dont work on "X detents", it's only increment and decrement pins. You are thinking about an encoder where each position has an output and this isnt that.

Whoever is merging the BOM needs to fix the 47 uF to the right size (namely EEE-FK1C470UR)
I thought about this a bit more. You'd have to spin a 10PPR exactly twice as far as a 20PPR encoder to get the same reaction. one rotation = 10 increments or decrements vs. 20. But I was talking about 24 vs. 20, so either would have pretty much the same "feel." I sort of forgot how the LEDs can continue to spin depending on the speed you twist (if I remember that correctly) - so yeah, what you said makes perfect sense - the position of the knob is not coupled with the position of the LEDs.

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livefreela
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Post by livefreela » Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:31 pm

these are the smt leds i used on mine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 1778318662

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Post by dalhasumai » Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:10 am

livefreela wrote:these are the smt leds i used on mine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 1778318662
dead link :despair:

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Post by HipDestroyer » Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:42 am

spotta wrote:Altitude's BOM as a Mouser project.
http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/Pr ... ce326d4379

I haven't ordered this myself yet so consider it a Beta, its missing the 1,10,100k resistors & BAT54S as I have these in stock already but includes the correct 47u caps.
some caps and resistors have been rounded up to 10 for price breaks.
Hopefully it'll save some of you some time
:tu:

edit - missing the 26 RGB LEDs too as I am getting elsewhere
Thank you! There are a couple of backorders on there but they're easily replaced with Mousers "Find similar" option

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Altitude909
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Post by Altitude909 » Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:05 am

dalhasumai wrote:
livefreela wrote:these are the smt leds i used on mine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 1778318662
dead link :despair:
They are readily available from Chinese sellers, just check the pinouts

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Post by Tombola » Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:48 pm

The hardware design is Copyright Dan Green / 4MS:
https://github.com/4ms/SMR/blob/master/ ... ematic.pdf

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Post by HipDestroyer » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:45 pm

Tombola wrote:The hardware design is Copyright Dan Green / 4MS:
https://github.com/4ms/SMR/blob/master/ ... ematic.pdf
Oh snap. I didn't know that. Well, I'm not bulding this then.

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Post by bennelong.bicyclist » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:51 pm

Tombola wrote:The hardware design is Copyright Dan Green / 4MS:
https://github.com/4ms/SMR/blob/master/ ... ematic.pdf
Assertion of copyright doesn't mean it isn't released under an open source licence. In fact for most open-source licenses, assertion of copyright is required to make them work, legally. Generally a bad idea to waiving copyright and put designs in the public domain - assertion of copyright and open-source licensing is much better.

That said, there isn't any reference to the license under which the PCB files are released in the 4ms GitHub repository (or did I overlook it?). The firmware is clearly licensed under an MIT open-source license. Absence of a hardware license is probably an oversight (otherwise why else make Eagle files available via GitHub?). Someone should check with Dan Green...since I plan to build one, it might as well be me.

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Altitude909
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Post by Altitude909 » Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:00 pm

Tombola wrote:The hardware design is Copyright Dan Green / 4MS:
https://github.com/4ms/SMR/blob/master/ ... ematic.pdf
He uses an open source bootloader (MI) and CC BY-SA states:

" If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you must distribute your contributions under the same license as the original"

That's why all that is there at all
Last edited by Altitude909 on Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by adam » Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:07 pm

that's the software though, mi firmware is released under the gpl i believe, not cc-by-sa

if dan designed the pcb then it's his copyright, he doesn't even need to mark it that way.

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Post by Tombola » Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:34 pm

Altitude909 wrote:
He uses an open source bootloader (MI) and CC BY-SA states:

" If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you must distribute your contributions under the same license as the original"

That's why all that is there at all
The software & hardware have separate licenses.

You can sell a laptop with a copyright protected circuit board that runs Linux, for example.

You can also release schematics or board layouts without granting permission to copy them - just as musicians release uncompressed .wav files of their tracks (CDs) without granting permission to duplicate them

In Radio Music, the hardware is CC-BY-SA licensed, as is the bits of software I and other contributors have written. But a chunk of the software is copyright to the creator of the Teensy.
Last edited by Tombola on Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bennelong.bicyclist » Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:36 pm

adam wrote:that's the software though, mi firmware is released under the gpl i believe, not cc-by-sa
The firmware for the Mutable Instruments eurorack modules is almost all released under the MIT license, just like the 4ms SMRF code is. Firmware for some earlier MI non-modular designs (e.g. the Shruthi synth) are under the GPL, I think.
adam wrote:if dan designed the pcb then it's his copyright, he doesn't even need to mark it that way.
True, in most countries, you don't need to assert copyright - it is yours unless you explicitly waive it. And even then, it isn't clear that you can waive it in some places. The solution is to license the design under a suitable open-source license, while retaining copyright. I suspect that is what Dan Green intended, and the absence of an explicit hardware license is just an oversight. Anyway, i have posted a question on the 4ms SMRF GitHub repository about it to clarify the situation.

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dalhasumai
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Post by dalhasumai » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:17 am

Thanks a lot you guys, I would feel very bad starting this topic if it was against Dan's will...

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Post by The_Crooked_Man » Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:55 pm

Regardless of law, don't you think that copying a currently manufactured product and putting it out into the ether with the express intent to have people, who are potential customers for the original product, manufacture their own without consulting the designer, is inherently wrong? Remember, 4MS makes and sells kits for a lot of their products, as well, so with this, you're potentially removing 2 different sets of customers from their pool.

This is ethics 101, guys. You don't need a bureaucracy to tell you that you're doing something which you already know is wrong, particularly in such an open community as this where most of these manufacturers are tiny outfits operating out of their houses, and are so responsive to all of us. If enough of us express a desire on Muffs for a DIY version of a 4ms product, the chances are pretty damn good that they'll release it.

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Post by Altitude909 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:38 pm

^
Please.

If he didn't want people to build it themselves, he wouldnt have put step by step instructions on how to build the firmware and provide board and schematic eagle files. I think at this stage with so many other manufactures opening up their projects to the masses, one could safely assume this is no different. It's not like people are hacking into some computer and stealing something. Besides, the SMR is the ONLY project 4MS offers like this, all others are still closed. Open sourcing a project attracts developers which generates alternate firmwares for devices which make them ultimately more attractive for everyone with zero effort from 4MS. Worked out great for Mutable Instruments. And as to the whole "lost sales" thing: If I could not have built it myself, I wouldnt have bought it (or even looked at it actually). The money I spend on parts, boards, panel, and time adds up to probably more than a retail one. There are plenty of people out there that will build something for the sake of building it

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Post by bennelong.bicyclist » Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:23 pm

The_Crooked_Man wrote:This is ethics 101, guys. You don't need a bureaucracy to tell you that you're doing something which you already know is wrong, particularly in such an open community as this where most of these manufacturers are tiny outfits operating out of their houses, and are so responsive to all of us. If enough of us express a desire on Muffs for a DIY version of a 4ms product, the chances are pretty damn good that they'll release it.
No, in this case the intention of the designer appears to have been to make the the entire design for the module available for re-use - otherwise, why would he have made the Eagle PCB design files part of the same repository that holds the firmware source code, which has an explicit open-source license attached to it? If the PCB files were in a different repository, then I would have my doubts, but bundling them together with the firmware files makes his intentions pretty clear, I think. The absence of an explicit license for them is probably just an oversight.

Anyway, I have sought clarification: https://github.com/4ms/SMR/issues/1

Note also that the SMR is very difficult to build by hand - by far the hardest I have contemplated. The number of DIY builders is likely to be small. It is definitely not suitable for issue as a kit.

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Post by adam » Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:29 pm

insula asked dan if he had the files and he put them up on a whim

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