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DIY 4ms SMR
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Tech DIY  
Author DIY 4ms SMR
dalhasumai
A guy started a facebook group for PCB group buys and he's sellling 4ms SMR PCBs.
I started sourcing all the parts for a mouser/thonk basket.

GitHub : https://github.com/4ms/SMR
BOM : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KZltEM_g_yhMPhuGk-p82fb1sggsvi 72b_s4ztzFu-s/edit#gid=677579651
I'm not sure about every replacement parts :

- SLIDES (POT-LED) : i see two alternatives but in 50K :
Thonk (red LED...) https://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/music-thing-modular-sliders-for-voltages/
Mouser (not sure about colours) http://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Alpha-Taiwan/RA2045F-20R-15LC-B50K- C/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtC25l1F4XBU1sVVnjISoIHwkIuboZoxqo%3d
Anyone know about a 100k source ?

- the 5 pots (POTR0904N) seems to be thonk's trimmers https://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/ttpots/

- VR4 (VREG-DCDC) seems to be this one http://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/RECOM-Power/R-78E33-05/?qs=sGAEpiMZ ZMt6Q9lZSPl3RdIY%2frU%252b4pgMeDWDw5CejVE%3d if anyone a cheaper alternative, let it be !

- D13,D19 http://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Vishay-Semiconductors/B140-E3-5AT/? qs=tdXsjSi%2fIMaAtxzBb4%252bn2Q%3d%3d same thing here

- S0, S1 : BUTTON-TACT : http://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/ALPS/SKQGAKE010/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsgGjV A3toVBA1UHfTHbV9%252bZVm6oBay0Ts%3d
this one seems ok (i checked the dimensions)

- V-SEL : http://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity-AMP/4-103321-5/?qs= sGAEpiMZZMs%252bGHln7q6pm97UIqqiSP4A1%2f30GdYnar0%3d

- SWD http://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity-AMP/827312-4/?qs=sG AEpiMZZMs%252bGHln7q6pm%2f6BrHToExQ4qEBtmg10Mhc%3d

- POWER (SMD !) unshrouded : http://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/FCI/54202-T0804LF/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs%2 52bGHln7q6pm2nKUjHUi6l6YMrkvH7rLdI%3d
shrouded http://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Molex/71349-2036/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs%25 2bGHln7q6pm8NDWwBzqQCNbGDAWSv%252bzYw%3d

- V1 http://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Fairchild-Semiconductor/KA78L05AIMT F/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtUqDgmOWBjgALQLVuvJIIysKa1NT5Q0mM%3d

- LED-INCLIP : Dual T1 LED, Common Cathode. I'm stuck on this one, seems to come from Malekko's Eagle library. I can't see what it does on the module... Help !

- 27 jacks : Thonkiconn (thonk soon out of stock !) https://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/3-5mm-jacks/
alternative ? http://modularaddict.com/pj301m12-jacks
or see group buy on pusherman group

- Rotary encoder / button, 12mm. I'm also stuck here. same as braids ?

- MINIUSB : http://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Hirose-Connector/UX60-MB-5ST/?qs=sG AEpiMZZMulM8LPOQ%252bykzmHhzPuOAFGIpscEVPIFWo%3d looks ok

- LOCK switches : looks same as Clouds but not permanent (locked) I have 0 knowledges about DPDT, SPDT style so i won't know if it fits.

- submini SPDTT switches : same here...

Your turn now ! smile
insula
really big thanks for sharing all this information!!

applause applause applause

i was also thinking to buld one 4ms, and now looks more easy with all this deatils

It's peanut butter jelly time!
dalhasumai
Let's do this !
ki0
Could you pass me the facebook group, please?¿ i would like to order some pcbs... Rockin' Banana!

Thank you very much for the info.
dalhasumai
I was told not to share the group link
Please take a moment to check my replacement parts propositions and help me figure out the other ones !
Altitude909
dont forget lightpipes

also: http://www.ebay.com/itm/251176235368

and for the toggle switches, watch the diameter of the legs, the official parts used have tiny leads and finding switches that fit proved a chore. I went with C&K T series but those were really expensive.
d.simon
this work?
http://www.elecrow.com/3mm-led-dual-color-redgreen-common-cathode5pcs- p-377.html

probably not...through hole.

The dual LED is a clipping led for the input. (if the input signal clips)

RE: lock switches. There was a MW thread on this just recently (LP4 switches). Also my "prototype SMR" thread someone asked about it.


Lock switches are momentary : .brd shows "WHITE-MOM"
MOM = momentary (not mother)
d.simon
the LP4 "e-switch" comes up a few times on MW. There are maybe 3 sources of those types of switches (well buying, eswitch, and ?)
d.simon
yes song huei "tall trimmers"

the real crux IIRC is the 100k illuminated sliders. 20mm travel ... right?

On my prototype version I use 100k rotary pots instead (and a separate LED)
sempervirent
I'll have SMR panels in a few weeks, preorders are open until April 1:
http://grayscale.info/panels/4ms-smr/

Also, one small contribution to the parts list... Thonk has the Davies 1900h-style knobs without a pointer line, like the Rotate knob on the factory builds:
https://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/knobs-davies-1900h-clone-metal/

Altitude909
d.simon wrote:
yes song huei "tall trimmers"

the real crux IIRC is the 100k illuminated sliders. 20mm travel ... right?

On my prototype version I use 100k rotary pots instead (and a separate LED)


Dont have to be 100K, I used 50K and those worked fine
dalhasumai
Altitude909 wrote:

Dont have to be 100K, I used 50K and those worked fine

Really ? cause mouser is selling the 50k version
Altitude909
dalhasumai wrote:
Altitude909 wrote:

Dont have to be 100K, I used 50K and those worked fine

Really ? cause mouser is selling the 50k version


Yes. They are not being used as analog anything, just as digital controls. Anything 100k-10k should be ok

d.simon
sweet.

did u know you can use two SMR to do vocoding?
dalhasumai
found this http://4ms.org/?p=285
Altitude909
I didnt even use that brand. I used the Eswitch ones:

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?keywords=LP4OA1PBCTG
sempervirent
E-Switch LP4, Well Buying PS004, and Highly PB61303 are all the same switch as far as I can tell. Which one is the original and which two are the clones? Who knows...
dalhasumai
Lightpipes : http://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Dialight/515-1027F/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuu 2qEGwSNRoPRSjaU6DOcOenyCWaun5uo%3d
not sure about the dimensions
Altitude909
The official ones are these:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Bivar/PLP2-350/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuu2qE GwSNRoI7NaoVtmgDB4Ovik%2fQ6PE4%3d
cane creek
This might give you an idea of whats involved.

Conjure
Good luck. I've hand-built every Mutable project and I still don't want to touch the SMR. Not scared of the ARM or anything. Just the sheer size of the project. The tiny ICs are a little daunting.

Also, I've heard the LEDs aren't long enough on the DIY versions.
cane creek
So how do you order ? do you send the guy a message ? as the Facebook page looks a bit chaotic.
dalhasumai
The guy posts google docs when he's annoucing a new group buy and you fill it with what you need. but try sending him a message, he often have some spare boards.
d.simon
so the lightpipes are friction fit? no glue i assume.

cane creek wrote:
This might give you an idea of whats involved.



its a helpful image but doesn't show lightpipes, as stated
d.simon
Conjure wrote:
Good luck. I've hand-built every Mutable project and I still don't want to touch the SMR. Not scared of the ARM or anything. Just the sheer size of the project. The tiny ICs are a little daunting.


yeah...its amazing how much logic the led ring takes. digital design though.

just due to the amount of I/O there's a few opamps here and there.
the codec and the arm.
several power regulation sections.

that's about it besides passives.
dalhasumai
picture of the lightpipes
https://scontent-mrs1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12472824_10 156734314995083_2075508580532373143_n.jpg?oh=7de38c7c8079f5262422f2847 aed9ed2&oe=577BC396
dalhasumai
Apparently those pots should be good cheap replacement for the trimmers (also good for many mutable builds) http://fr.aliexpress.com/store/product/100Pcs-10K-103-Ohm-B-Type-Linea r-18mm-Shaft-Rotary-Potentiometer-Trimmer-Variable-Resistor/808638_326 24428063.html
Dogma
that looks like a reflow oven job...is that what most people are doing?
dalhasumai
I'm only using my iron and some flux at the moment on some mutable builds
d.simon
Dogma wrote:
that looks like a reflow oven job...is that what most people are doing?


I haven't gotten into reflow ovens yet. I'm thinking of getting a hot air station. My friend has a special dispenser for (flux?) or maybe solder. (instead of using a stencil).

with hot air station, I think you don't have to place all the parts. not so sure on ovens?

also I'm pretty sure I'm going to need hotair at some point for any rework.
d.simon
another thing I'd like to get is some soldering tweezers.
but at the same time I'm trying to avoid buying too much equipment
dalhasumai
someone shared an in-progress mouser cart :
https://www.mouser.fr/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=0a9e0 3c5ea

missing :
* jacks
* pots
* mom switches
* submini spdt
* rotary encoder
HipDestroyer
deleted.
dalhasumai
yes, thanks smile
HipDestroyer
Does anyone know what the deal is with the spdt mini switch??? The Eagle BOM says:

SLOWFAST-SW submini-3T SPDTT SPDT-SUB SPDT Switch


hmmm.....
HipDestroyer
I changed the stm to STM32F427ZGT6 in the cart
webboy
I'm damn near positive the "official" SMR toggle switches are E-switch 200 series. I don't know *exactly* which ones, but the MSP-1 (on-none-on) and MSP-3 (on-off-on) look like the right models. The red plastic bodies look identical to the SMR side photos.

If someone can confirm, or if they want to sort out the exact model from the datasheet, please do!

datasheet - https://www.e-switch.com/system/asset/product_line/data_sheet/131/200. pdf

Photo of SMR switches -



Photo of E-switch 200 series toggle switch (wrong terminations in this pic, they should be solder pins)-

dalhasumai
looks good ! smile
webboy
HipDestroyer wrote:
Does anyone know what the deal is with the spdt mini switch??? The Eagle BOM says:

SLOWFAST-SW submini-3T SPDTT SPDT-SUB SPDT Switch


hmmm.....


Those are the on|on and on|off|on switches marked on the PCB. The submini-2T (x5) and submini-3T (x1) respectively.

SPDT = Single Pole Dual Throw (Toggle)
webboy
dalhasumai wrote:
looks good ! smile


I just noticed you can even see the side clip if you look very closely in the shadow of the SMR photo. I'm sure now. wink
webboy
Jacks are thonkiconns - next.
webboy
Pots are also easy. Song Huei "Tall trimmers" at Thonk. Also from the Thonk product page:

Quote:
These are direct drop in replacements for the common Alpha 9mm vertical trimmers and metal shafted potentiometers. They are also directly compatible with many other 9mm pot footprints from Bourns, Panasonic and others, see the datasheet for footprint details.

These pots are more ergonomic due to the longer shaft and they are easier to read than the competitive offerings due to the white marker line. These pots also have a 15,000 cycle lifespan compared to the Alpha 9mm pot 10,000 cycle lifespan.


Note also that a BOM generated from the SMR in Eagle says "POT-9MM-SONGHUEI"
Bamboombaps
EDIT: thanks! cool
webboy
So all that is left is the encoder. Only detail the Eagle file provides is that it's "12mm." Given that there are 20 LEDs, I will assume that we need a 20PPR encoder. I'll bet the Bourns PEC11L series is the correct one. I have some PEC11Rs at home, so I will check if the footprint is the same in the PEC11L and if so, I can try to snap in into my PCB. wink Bourns PEC*11* series are 11mm, but I bet it fits. wink
HipDestroyer
Great job!!! I'll update the cart tomorrow and we should be set after scrutinizing the whole thing an extra time wink
webboy
webboy wrote:
So all that is left is the encoder. Only detail the Eagle file provides is that it's "12mm." Given that there are 20 LEDs, I will assume that we need a 20PPR encoder. I'll bet the Bourns PEC11L series is the correct one. I have some PEC11Rs at home, so I will check if the footprint is the same in the PEC11L and if so, I can try to snap in into my PCB. wink Bourns PEC*11* series are 11mm, but I bet it fits. wink


OK, so the Bourns PEC11 series will fit if you modify the board clips. They are slightly too wide for the holes. Should be easy to compare the Bourns PEC11 footprint from the datasheet to an alternative and find one that fits out of the box. (I recently went through this on another build, so I'm confident it's no big deal.) The clips could just be made to fit somehow, which shouldn't be so difficult, or simply cut off *carefully at board level* and soldered in place. I only say that because some may already have 20PPR + push Bourns encoders which they could easily make use of on an SMR.

Thonkiconns I already knew were correct, but I had one in hand so I just popped it in the PCB to be 101% sure.
webboy
Last one for tonight. The Res (Q) pot (front panel name) marked "QVAL" on the PCB says "Song Huei 9MM" in the Eagle - generated BOM I made, but in Eagle Layout view it has a D-shaped shaft, so note that while the rest of the 4 pots are naked, plastic shafts with markers (the Thonk "tall trimmer" style,) that one is a D-shaft meant to wear a knob. The pots values are another thing to sort, but that info is in the schematic - easy peasy.
Altitude909
here, I'll make it simple for you guys:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZZHWehme2FW-1Q7Ejh6tmEdEOUJmtK FYelXFs8AUCyM/edit?usp=sharing

That is what I used for my build

The only issue is the 47 uF parts are the wrong size
webboy
Altitude909 wrote:
here, I'll make it simple for you guys:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZZHWehme2FW-1Q7Ejh6tmEdEOUJmtK FYelXFs8AUCyM/edit?usp=sharing

That is what I used for my build

The only issue is the 47 uF parts are the wrong size


Thanks Detroit homie! Rockin' Banana!
dalhasumai
Altitude909
thanks a lot !
and thanks everybody, let's build smile
webboy
Altitude909 wrote:
here, I'll make it simple for you guys:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZZHWehme2FW-1Q7Ejh6tmEdEOUJmtK FYelXFs8AUCyM/edit?usp=sharing

That is what I used for my build

The only issue is the 47 uF parts are the wrong size


Very kind of you to share your BOM, and I don't expect support from you, but just wondering about the encoder. You used a 24PPR with detents. Do you like the action it gives? I assume it works fine, I just made the assumption that 20PPR would sync perfectly with the number of LEDs - I *guess* you'd never notice that unless you had a (probably pointless) pointer on the rotate knob. I also guess detents are also desirable?

Any feedback greatly appreciated. Might not seem like a big deal to some, but the action/feel aspects are important to many, I'm sure. Thanks.

BTW, have no idea how I missed the PEC*12* series for a 12mm encoder. confused
av500
webboy wrote:

You used a 24PPR with detents. Do you like the action it gives? I assume it works fine, I just made the assumption that 20PPR would sync perfectly with the number of LEDs - I *guess* you'd never notice that unless you had a (probably pointless) pointer on the rotate knob. I also guess detents are also desirable?


even if you had a pointer on the knob, when the unit boots up it has no idea how the encoder knob is oriented, so it the pointer would rarely line up correctly.

I have a module with 16 LEDs in a circle and use 24 position encoders and never had an issue with that.
webboy
av500 wrote:
webboy wrote:

You used a 24PPR with detents. Do you like the action it gives? I assume it works fine, I just made the assumption that 20PPR would sync perfectly with the number of LEDs - I *guess* you'd never notice that unless you had a (probably pointless) pointer on the rotate knob. I also guess detents are also desirable?


even if you had a pointer on the knob, when the unit boots up it has no idea how the encoder knob is oriented, so it the pointer would rarely line up correctly.

I have a module with 16 LEDs in a circle and use 24 position encoders and never had an issue with that.


What I meant was that *if* you had a pointer, I assume you'd see the pointer out of sync on the SMR in relation to the LEDs - sorta like what analog clock arms look like when you spin the set dial. It's just curiosity there - but your answer was what I really wanted. PPR doesn't necessarily have to match. I still wonder though about the SMR. Imagine if you had a 10PPR - one rotation would move the LEDs position (and affect the function) half way, right? Even without a pointer I would expect that to be noticeable.
synchromesh
Altitude909 wrote:
here, I'll make it simple for you guys:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZZHWehme2FW-1Q7Ejh6tmEdEOUJmtK FYelXFs8AUCyM/edit?usp=sharing

That is what I used for my build

The only issue is the 47 uF parts are the wrong size


Thanks for that Altitude909! I have incorporated your part numbers into my MI PCB FB DIY Reference spreadsheet.

EDIT: Added the correct 47uF part number EEE-FK1C470UR, cheers!
Altitude909
webboy wrote:
Altitude909 wrote:
here, I'll make it simple for you guys:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZZHWehme2FW-1Q7Ejh6tmEdEOUJmtK FYelXFs8AUCyM/edit?usp=sharing

That is what I used for my build

The only issue is the 47 uF parts are the wrong size


Very kind of you to share your BOM, and I don't expect support from you, but just wondering about the encoder. You used a 24PPR with detents. Do you like the action it gives? I assume it works fine, I just made the assumption that 20PPR would sync perfectly with the number of LEDs - I *guess* you'd never notice that unless you had a (probably pointless) pointer on the rotate knob. I also guess detents are also desirable?

Any feedback greatly appreciated. Might not seem like a big deal to some, but the action/feel aspects are important to many, I'm sure. Thanks.

BTW, have no idea how I missed the PEC*12* series for a 12mm encoder. confused

24 is the common type, simple as that. You are never stepping through individual steps with the encoder, you are sweeping across a range so the resolution of the encoder isn't relevant (and the leds move so there isnt any reference anyway). Encoders like this dont work on "X detents", it's only increment and decrement pins. You are thinking about an encoder where each position has an output and this isnt that.

Whoever is merging the BOM needs to fix the 47 uF to the right size (namely EEE-FK1C470UR)
webboy
Awesome! Thanks again for your input.
spotta
Altitude's BOM as a Mouser project.
http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=ce326 d4379

I haven't ordered this myself yet so consider it a Beta, its missing the 1,10,100k resistors & BAT54S as I have these in stock already but includes the correct 47u caps.
some caps and resistors have been rounded up to 10 for price breaks.
Hopefully it'll save some of you some time
thumbs up

edit - missing the 26 RGB LEDs too as I am getting elsewhere
webboy
Cheaper, lower spec SPDT toggle switches. I do believe these are the ones in the photo on 4MS's site.

E-switch 200MSP1T1B1M2QEH - on-on (on|on)

E-switch 200MSP3T1B1M2QEH - on-off-on (on|off|on)

Both backordered on Mouser of course.
webboy
webboy wrote:

Very kind of you to share your BOM, and I don't expect support from you, but just wondering about the encoder. You used a 24PPR with detents. Do you like the action it gives? I assume it works fine, I just made the assumption that 20PPR would sync perfectly with the number of LEDs - I *guess* you'd never notice that unless you had a (probably pointless) pointer on the rotate knob. I also guess detents are also desirable?

Any feedback greatly appreciated. Might not seem like a big deal to some, but the action/feel aspects are important to many, I'm sure. Thanks.

BTW, have no idea how I missed the PEC*12* series for a 12mm encoder. confused

Altitude909 wrote:

24 is the common type, simple as that. You are never stepping through individual steps with the encoder, you are sweeping across a range so the resolution of the encoder isn't relevant (and the leds move so there isnt any reference anyway). Encoders like this dont work on "X detents", it's only increment and decrement pins. You are thinking about an encoder where each position has an output and this isnt that.

Whoever is merging the BOM needs to fix the 47 uF to the right size (namely EEE-FK1C470UR)


I thought about this a bit more. You'd have to spin a 10PPR exactly twice as far as a 20PPR encoder to get the same reaction. one rotation = 10 increments or decrements vs. 20. But I was talking about 24 vs. 20, so either would have pretty much the same "feel." I sort of forgot how the LEDs can continue to spin depending on the speed you twist (if I remember that correctly) - so yeah, what you said makes perfect sense - the position of the knob is not coupled with the position of the LEDs.
livefreela
these are the smt leds i used on mine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=121778318662
dalhasumai
livefreela wrote:
these are the smt leds i used on mine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=121778318662

dead link seriously, i just don't get it
HipDestroyer
spotta wrote:
Altitude's BOM as a Mouser project.
http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=ce326 d4379

I haven't ordered this myself yet so consider it a Beta, its missing the 1,10,100k resistors & BAT54S as I have these in stock already but includes the correct 47u caps.
some caps and resistors have been rounded up to 10 for price breaks.
Hopefully it'll save some of you some time
thumbs up

edit - missing the 26 RGB LEDs too as I am getting elsewhere


Thank you! There are a couple of backorders on there but they're easily replaced with Mousers "Find similar" option
Altitude909
dalhasumai wrote:
livefreela wrote:
these are the smt leds i used on mine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=121778318662

dead link seriously, i just don't get it


They are readily available from Chinese sellers, just check the pinouts
Tombola
The hardware design is Copyright Dan Green / 4MS:
https://github.com/4ms/SMR/blob/master/hardware/smr-1.0.1-schematic.pd f
HipDestroyer
Tombola wrote:
The hardware design is Copyright Dan Green / 4MS:
https://github.com/4ms/SMR/blob/master/hardware/smr-1.0.1-schematic.pd f


Oh snap. I didn't know that. Well, I'm not bulding this then.
bennelong.bicyclist
Tombola wrote:
The hardware design is Copyright Dan Green / 4MS:
https://github.com/4ms/SMR/blob/master/hardware/smr-1.0.1-schematic.pd f


Assertion of copyright doesn't mean it isn't released under an open source licence. In fact for most open-source licenses, assertion of copyright is required to make them work, legally. Generally a bad idea to waiving copyright and put designs in the public domain - assertion of copyright and open-source licensing is much better.

That said, there isn't any reference to the license under which the PCB files are released in the 4ms GitHub repository (or did I overlook it?). The firmware is clearly licensed under an MIT open-source license. Absence of a hardware license is probably an oversight (otherwise why else make Eagle files available via GitHub?). Someone should check with Dan Green...since I plan to build one, it might as well be me.
Altitude909
Tombola wrote:
The hardware design is Copyright Dan Green / 4MS:
https://github.com/4ms/SMR/blob/master/hardware/smr-1.0.1-schematic.pd f


He uses an open source bootloader (MI) and CC BY-SA states:

" If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you must distribute your contributions under the same license as the original"

That's why all that is there at all
adam
that's the software though, mi firmware is released under the gpl i believe, not cc-by-sa

if dan designed the pcb then it's his copyright, he doesn't even need to mark it that way.
Tombola
Altitude909 wrote:


He uses an open source bootloader (MI) and CC BY-SA states:

" If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you must distribute your contributions under the same license as the original"

That's why all that is there at all


The software & hardware have separate licenses.

You can sell a laptop with a copyright protected circuit board that runs Linux, for example.

You can also release schematics or board layouts without granting permission to copy them - just as musicians release uncompressed .wav files of their tracks (CDs) without granting permission to duplicate them

In Radio Music, the hardware is CC-BY-SA licensed, as is the bits of software I and other contributors have written. But a chunk of the software is copyright to the creator of the Teensy.
bennelong.bicyclist
adam wrote:
that's the software though, mi firmware is released under the gpl i believe, not cc-by-sa


The firmware for the Mutable Instruments eurorack modules is almost all released under the MIT license, just like the 4ms SMRF code is. Firmware for some earlier MI non-modular designs (e.g. the Shruthi synth) are under the GPL, I think.

adam wrote:
if dan designed the pcb then it's his copyright, he doesn't even need to mark it that way.


True, in most countries, you don't need to assert copyright - it is yours unless you explicitly waive it. And even then, it isn't clear that you can waive it in some places. The solution is to license the design under a suitable open-source license, while retaining copyright. I suspect that is what Dan Green intended, and the absence of an explicit hardware license is just an oversight. Anyway, i have posted a question on the 4ms SMRF GitHub repository about it to clarify the situation.
dalhasumai
Thanks a lot you guys, I would feel very bad starting this topic if it was against Dan's will...
The_Crooked_Man
Regardless of law, don't you think that copying a currently manufactured product and putting it out into the ether with the express intent to have people, who are potential customers for the original product, manufacture their own without consulting the designer, is inherently wrong? Remember, 4MS makes and sells kits for a lot of their products, as well, so with this, you're potentially removing 2 different sets of customers from their pool.

This is ethics 101, guys. You don't need a bureaucracy to tell you that you're doing something which you already know is wrong, particularly in such an open community as this where most of these manufacturers are tiny outfits operating out of their houses, and are so responsive to all of us. If enough of us express a desire on Muffs for a DIY version of a 4ms product, the chances are pretty damn good that they'll release it.
Altitude909
^
Please.

If he didn't want people to build it themselves, he wouldnt have put step by step instructions on how to build the firmware and provide board and schematic eagle files. I think at this stage with so many other manufactures opening up their projects to the masses, one could safely assume this is no different. It's not like people are hacking into some computer and stealing something. Besides, the SMR is the ONLY project 4MS offers like this, all others are still closed. Open sourcing a project attracts developers which generates alternate firmwares for devices which make them ultimately more attractive for everyone with zero effort from 4MS. Worked out great for Mutable Instruments. And as to the whole "lost sales" thing: If I could not have built it myself, I wouldnt have bought it (or even looked at it actually). The money I spend on parts, boards, panel, and time adds up to probably more than a retail one. There are plenty of people out there that will build something for the sake of building it
bennelong.bicyclist
The_Crooked_Man wrote:
This is ethics 101, guys. You don't need a bureaucracy to tell you that you're doing something which you already know is wrong, particularly in such an open community as this where most of these manufacturers are tiny outfits operating out of their houses, and are so responsive to all of us. If enough of us express a desire on Muffs for a DIY version of a 4ms product, the chances are pretty damn good that they'll release it.


No, in this case the intention of the designer appears to have been to make the the entire design for the module available for re-use - otherwise, why would he have made the Eagle PCB design files part of the same repository that holds the firmware source code, which has an explicit open-source license attached to it? If the PCB files were in a different repository, then I would have my doubts, but bundling them together with the firmware files makes his intentions pretty clear, I think. The absence of an explicit license for them is probably just an oversight.

Anyway, I have sought clarification: https://github.com/4ms/SMR/issues/1

Note also that the SMR is very difficult to build by hand - by far the hardest I have contemplated. The number of DIY builders is likely to be small. It is definitely not suitable for issue as a kit.
adam
insula asked dan if he had the files and he put them up on a whim
bennelong.bicyclist
adam wrote:
insula asked dan if he had the files and he put them up on a whim


I think that we need to hear what the copyright holder himself has to say, rather than relying on inferred intentions. The source code was certainly not published on GitHub on a whim - it is carefully documented - and the hardware files are in the same repository.
cane creek
insula
cane creek wrote:


I was talking with dan at the last "modular day" at barcelona, also about the idea of build one by myself. Very kind guy, also warned me about be careful with the RGB leds... applause applause

I think is is you are able to built a module, you should do it if you have all the info available, in the other hand a different thing is trying to build DIY modules for sale.

There is a open thread about MI DIY modules, i don't find the like right now ...

thumbs up
dalhasumai
I've emailed him. I'll post his response
dalhasumai
Email from Dan (4MS) about SMR DIY :

"Hi Théo,
Thank you, yes I've gotten a few queries about the SMR hardware license, and realized I just posted the eagle files without a license, which was an oversight. My intent was to give people the information they need to build and modify their own SMR and also be a reference for people developing new projects. I haven't read all the messages and links in the MW thread, but at first glance it looks awesome what you guys are doing. In general I do want people to be able to build their own SMR by using the files I posted to make PCBs, source the parts, and figure out how to assemble it.

Im considering the CC BY-NC-SA license, but I am hesitating only because I want to make sure it doesn't prohibit such things as a group of people paying equally for a run of PCBs, or a group purchase of parts (which is what I see you guys doing!) I do want some sort of restriction on commercial use for a few reasons, one of which is that I don't want to see fully built cloned SMRs competing with the original 4ms SMRs in the marketplace.

Also, you mention that you'd like to prevent the DIY builds from being mixed up with the 4ms factory builds, which is great. I might suggest changing/adding the text on the silkscreen layer of the PCB, perhaps around where the PCB version is printed.

In any case, if you have any experience or knowledge of licensing that means DIY=OK but $$$=NO please let me know!
thanks
Dan"

smile
Altitude909
shocker meh
The_Crooked_Man
Fantastic, but I absolutely stand by the assertion that you can't just assume that someone is willing to give away their intellectual property for nothing, and acting on that assumption without confirmation is unquestionably unethical.
webboy
The_Crooked_Man wrote:
Fantastic, but I absolutely stand by the assertion that you can't just assume that someone is willing to give away their intellectual property for nothing, and acting on that assumption without confirmation is unquestionably unethical.


Wonderful, just wonderful to have your opinion so forcefully stated. Thanks for that.
webboy
Altitude909 wrote:
shocker meh


d'oh!
cane creek
The_Crooked_Man wrote:
Fantastic, but I absolutely stand by the assertion that you can't just assume that someone is willing to give away their intellectual property for nothing, and acting on that assumption without confirmation is unquestionably unethical.


The thing that was puzzling the DIY community was why was all the relevant information uploaded onto Github by 4ms if they didn't want people to build it.

anyway we have to go ahead now It's peanut butter jelly time!
Altitude909
and now for the 700 page long unsuccessful build thread..
d.simon
ok now the q is DLD ? Since its a collaborative design I'm wondering if it will be released the same way. Maybe not, as I'm not sure if the platform would be as great for FW dev. But OTOH DLD would be great for developing other types of wierd loopers.
The_Crooked_Man
webboy wrote:
Wonderful, just wonderful to have your opinion so forcefully stated. Thanks for that.


And thank you for being a condescending little shit when I was not stating my opinion, but laying down the law of literally EVERY land on the planet, and particularly here on Muffs, to try to at least give people some pause. You've been a member of this community for all of three months so you have literally ZERO frame of reference on this subject. Go back and read some threads on Blue Lantern Modules. This shit matters.
bennelong.bicyclist
Altitude909 wrote:
and now for the 700 page long unsuccessful build thread..


There are a very large number of very small 0603-sized unlabelled parts that can be put in the wrong place...
bennelong.bicyclist
The_Crooked_Man wrote:
Fantastic, but I absolutely stand by the assertion that you can't just assume that someone is willing to give away their intellectual property for nothing, and acting on that assumption without confirmation is unquestionably unethical.


Open-source licensing does not involve anyone giving away their intellectual property - they just license it in a way that permits others to use it. The original authors (in this case Dan Green/4ms) still own the content and hold the copyright to it - none of those rights are in any way given away.
av500
bennelong.bicyclist wrote:
Altitude909 wrote:
and now for the 700 page long unsuccessful build thread..


There are a very large number of very small 0603-sized unlabelled parts that can be put in the wrong place...


through-hole-SMR anybody? hihi
webboy
Altitude909 wrote:
and now for the 700 page long unsuccessful build thread..


I might make my second SMD build ever an SMR just to rub that comment on your face. :p
webboy
The_Crooked_Man wrote:
webboy wrote:
Wonderful, just wonderful to have your opinion so forcefully stated. Thanks for that.


And thank you for being a condescending little shit when I was not stating my opinion, but laying down the law of literally EVERY land on the planet, and particularly here on Muffs, to try to at least give people some pause. You've been a member of this community for all of three months so you have literally ZERO frame of reference on this subject. Go back and read some threads on Blue Lantern Modules. This shit matters.


That's exactly what I meant, keep on showing your true colors. "Laying down the law?" I want to puke right now. You don't know me, and I'm not at all insulted by your elitist "I've got more posts than you in the community" atitude. You just look like more of an ass the more you say. You have no clue how many people I've helped and in what capacity. The "community" doesn't end at the borders of this forum. You're opinion on IP and open source is yours, and I don't share it. It's not the law, stop deluding yourself. And saying I have "ZERO" frame of reference is quite an assumption. As if this doesn't come up outside of Muffwiggler. That's funny- again, stop assuming you know me.

One last thing- I'm not here to get all worked up and argue, so my apologies in general if I've annoyed anyone. I just have a difficult time being told what is right or wrong. It's a character flaw of mine that I can't just shut my mouth and let it be sometimes. I'm done. Insult away.
bennelong.bicyclist
webboy wrote:
Altitude909 wrote:
and now for the 700 page long unsuccessful build thread..


I might make my second SMD build ever an SMR just to rub that comment on your face. :p


I suspect @Altitude909 will quite correctly remind you of that if/when you ask for help (he's one of the few people to have successfully DIYed one of these things so far).
livefreela
good luck with that one... altitude and i speak from experience in saying this thing is a pain in the ass to build with zero margin for error. no better way to approach it than out of a solid grudge - especially one of the very small handful of people with experience in successfully building this thing to cry to when you inevitably fuck it up.

edit: bannelong - you beat me to the punch.

webboy wrote:
Altitude909 wrote:
and now for the 700 page long unsuccessful build thread..


I might make my second SMD build ever an SMR just to rub that comment on your face. :p
webboy
livefreela wrote:
good luck with that one... altitude and i speak from experience in saying this thing is a pain in the ass to build with zero margin for error. no better way to approach it than out of a solid grudge - especially one of the very small handful of people with experience in successfully building this thing to cry to when you inevitably fuck it up.

edit: bannelong - you beat me to the punch.

webboy wrote:
Altitude909 wrote:
and now for the 700 page long unsuccessful build thread..


I might make my second SMD build ever an SMR just to rub that comment on your face. :p


Sorry, it really was just a joke. There's a reason I have 2 PCBs. Respect!
Stab Frenzy
bennelong.bicyclist wrote:
Altitude909 wrote:
and now for the 700 page long unsuccessful build thread..


There are a very large number of very small 0603-sized unlabelled parts that can be put in the wrong place...

My PCB arrived today and I have to admit I'm intimidated.
av500
Stab Frenzy wrote:
bennelong.bicyclist wrote:
Altitude909 wrote:
and now for the 700 page long unsuccessful build thread..


There are a very large number of very small 0603-sized unlabelled parts that can be put in the wrong place...

My PCB arrived today and I have to admit I'm intimidated.


pics?
Altitude909
webboy wrote:
..
I might make my second SMD build ever an SMR just to rub that comment on your face. :p
Sorry, it really was just a joke. There's a reason I have 2 PCBs. Respect!


heh. No worries, that's the spirit though!
n167tx
i Am 90% of the first layer.
Its a big ASS project, really fun though. But still Flashing the STM is what worries me the most.
Do i have to populate all the hardware before flashing ?

av500
n167tx wrote:
i Am 90% of the first layer.
Its a big ASS project, really fun though. But still Flashing the STM is what worries me the most.
Do i have to populate all the hardware before flashing ?


you don't, all you need is to power the CPU and make sure it comes out of reset and boots into the proper mode. and of course a working JTAG/SWD connection. see the Euclid PCB, I solder only the STM32, the BOOT0 pulldown and a bypass cap, then I flash the firmware using a needle pin jig...
n167tx
Its true. i remember.
smile
Altitude909
n167tx wrote:
i Am 90% of the first layer.
Its a big ASS project, really fun though. But still Flashing the STM is what worries me the most.
Do i have to populate all the hardware before flashing ?


like av500 said, just the uC and related power stuff. Keep in mind that this is SWD only so if you are using a STlink, you need to make an adapter for the 16pin JTAG header.

For the environment, just follow Dan's instructions on Git, I didnt have any issues getting it going on windows 10
webboy
Stab Frenzy wrote:
bennelong.bicyclist wrote:
Altitude909 wrote:
and now for the 700 page long unsuccessful build thread..


There are a very large number of very small 0603-sized unlabelled parts that can be put in the wrong place...

My PCB arrived today and I have to admit I'm intimidated.


It's like a heavily populated continent.
spotta
This will takeover from the Klee as the new DIY rites of passage!



we'll need an Onion emoticon lol
AlanP
Whoever laid that board out in the first place is bloody amazing at the art.
n167tx
[/quote]
like av500 said, just the uC and related power stuff. Keep in mind that this is SWD only so if you are using a STlink, you need to make an adapter for the 16pin JTAG header.

For the environment, just follow Dan's instructions on Git, I didnt have any issues getting it going on windows 10[/quote]

Yes, i guess it will be fine with Stlink Utility on Windows. I already installed Windows on mac. That was the hardest part.
livefreela
if i recall correctly, i compiled & flashed mine via the ever handy mutable vm - may save some OS X users a bootcamp install...
moogasm
The PLP5-2-350 datasheet shows the flange diameter as 5mm. Looking at a picture of the front panel the diameter looks closer to 3mm. What am I missing? Maybe it is the VCC LFB035CTP?
Altitude909
moogasm wrote:
The PLP5-2-350 datasheet shows the flange diameter as 5mm. Looking at a picture of the front panel the diameter looks closer to 3mm. What am I missing? Maybe it is the VCC LFB035CTP?


Crap. Linked the wrong ones, they need to be PLP2

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Bivar/PLP2-350/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuu2qE GwSNRoI7NaoVtmgDB4Ovik%2fQ6PE4%3d
d.simon
AlanP wrote:
Whoever laid that board out in the first place is bloody amazing at the art.


I've studied it quite a bit. mostly instrumentation logic for MCU interfaces, but a lot of it (as evidenced by the front panel)

there's several power sections (incl. one (IC10) dedicated to the LED's, one (IC7) dedicated to the codec ), and a recom DC-DC converter

the analog side of the codec section has a separate agnd with one single tie point to the digital ground.(two pads near IC7 in upper right)


There's a lot dedicated to the led ring and channel leds -
26 rdb CA leds,
3*26=78 1k resistors
5 PCA9685 16-channel pwm controllers
power section (lower left incl. IC10)

for layout, the PCA9685's are spread around the outside perimiter of the led ring (led ring on the back side, ics on the front side)
the 1k current limiting resistors are generally placed close to the PCA9685's

one thing I'd like to do is convert that section to addressable leds

I made 2 daughterboards based on that section - instead of lay out around the perimeter, I stacked the components on another board.


av500
d.simon wrote:

one thing I'd like to do is convert that section to addressable leds


the first thing I did after git clone was to open the schematics in Eagle and delete all the PCA9685 and the resistors around them smile
n167tx
Its a start smile

I flashed it succesfully with STLinkV2, following Dans instructions on Github, but everytime i unplug it, i have this lights and have to flash it again.

Soon i will start the 7000 page Unsuccesful build thread.

[/img]
Altitude909
everyone figure out the onion thing?
mush
On | On . Describes the kind of switch. Could be on | off | on...
webboy
Altitude909 wrote:
everyone figure out the onion thing?


waah - Cause this is what happens Larry! When you try to build an SMR!
HipDestroyer
Any updates from the pioneer builders? How's it going?
bennelong.bicyclist
dalhasumai wrote:
Email from Dan (4MS) about SMR DIY :

"Hi Théo,
Thank you, yes I've gotten a few queries about the SMR hardware license, and realized I just posted the eagle files without a license, which was an oversight. My intent was to give people the information they need to build and modify their own SMR and also be a reference for people developing new projects. I haven't read all the messages and links in the MW thread, but at first glance it looks awesome what you guys are doing. In general I do want people to be able to build their own SMR by using the files I posted to make PCBs, source the parts, and figure out how to assemble it.

Im considering the CC BY-NC-SA license, but I am hesitating only because I want to make sure it doesn't prohibit such things as a group of people paying equally for a run of PCBs, or a group purchase of parts (which is what I see you guys doing!) I do want some sort of restriction on commercial use for a few reasons, one of which is that I don't want to see fully built cloned SMRs competing with the original 4ms SMRs in the marketplace.

Also, you mention that you'd like to prevent the DIY builds from being mixed up with the 4ms factory builds, which is great. I might suggest changing/adding the text on the silkscreen layer of the PCB, perhaps around where the PCB version is printed.

In any case, if you have any experience or knowledge of licensing that means DIY=OK but $$$=NO please let me know!
thanks
Dan"

smile


I notice that someone who goes by the name of "PCB Pusherman" on Facebook (see https://www.facebook.com/groups/1677419455833872/ ) and "BARE BONES" here on MW (see https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2111537#2111537 ) is offering a "group-buy" of 4ms SMRF PCBs - see [redacted] and scroll right to see the 4ms column).

Such an arrangement is not permitted under the CC BY-NC-SA license under which Dan Green has made the SMRF PCB files available. The NC (NonCommercial) clause of that license states:

Quote:
"NonCommercial means not primarily intended for or directed towards commercial advantage or monetary compensation."


Therefore, if any money is changing hands, even if it is only to cover costs, and even if no profit is being made by anyone, such use is not allowed under the terms of the CC BY-NC-SA license. You can order PCBs for your own personal use, you can give them away for free, but as soon as you provide PCBs to others in exchange for a payment, it is commercial use under the terms of this license and is not permitted by it.

It is worth pointing out that this also applies to selling built modules to others, not just PCBs, because the built module incorporates the PCB. Thus, building 4ms SMR modules on commission or otherwise for sale to others is not permitted by the license. You can build them for your own use, but you can't sell them (not even "second hand"). You can, however, give them away.
mush
Dan has been giving his blessing to the group buy. This is also mentioned in the quote from Dan in your very own message... Stop being world police on behalf of others, please...
bennelong.bicyclist
mush wrote:
Dan has been giving his blessing to the group buy. Stop being world police on behalf of others, please...


Where has this blessing been given?

In any case, I'm not policing anyone's use of the 4ms PCB files, I am just pointing out what the CC BY-NC-SA license says and the implications of that wording. It is up to the copyright holder (Dan Green) to police whether the PCB files are being used in accordance with the CC BY-NS-SA licence under which they were released..
mush
[quote="bennelong.bicyclist"]
dalhasumai wrote:
Email from Dan (4MS) about SMR DIY :
...
Im considering the CC BY-NC-SA license, but I am hesitating only because I want to make sure it doesn't prohibit such things as a group of people paying equally for a run of PCBs, or a group purchase of parts (which is what I see you guys doing!) I do want some sort of restriction on commercial use for a few reasons, one of which is that I don't want to see fully built cloned SMRs competing with the original 4ms SMRs in the marketplace.
ot even "second hand"). You can, however, give them away.


As well as personal messages to a handful of the group buyers.
bennelong.bicyclist
[quote="mush"]
bennelong.bicyclist wrote:
dalhasumai wrote:
Email from Dan (4MS) about SMR DIY :
...
Im considering the CC BY-NC-SA license, but I am hesitating only because I want to make sure it doesn't prohibit such things as a group of people paying equally for a run of PCBs, or a group purchase of parts (which is what I see you guys doing!) I do want some sort of restriction on commercial use for a few reasons, one of which is that I don't want to see fully built cloned SMRs competing with the original 4ms SMRs in the marketplace.
ot even "second hand"). You can, however, give them away.


As well as personal messages to a handful of the group buyers.


OK, I'm just pointing out that such group buys are not compliant with the wording of the CC BY-NC-SA license. If Dan Green has provided written approval of such group-buys, then you can choose to construe that as a relaxation of the CC BY-NC-SA provisions if you wish.

But my original point stands: group-buys in which money changes hands are not compliant with CC BY-NC-SA licensing - I have edited my post above to make that clear.
Crashlander42
bennelong.bicyclist wrote:
But my original point stands: group-buys in which money changes hands are not compliant with CC BY-NC-SA licensing - I have edited my post above to make that clear.


Where are these group buys where money DOESN'T change hands? Am I missing out on free PCBs somewhere?!

If you looked at the prices you'll see this isn't exactly a for-profit group buy. I fail to see how this is considered commercial. This is people pooling money to do a run of PCBs.

This group buy was the REASON Dan was contacted, and he's given it his blessing. Just as Oliver has said he doesn't care about group buys of his PCBs as long as they're not passed off as commercial versions.
bennelong.bicyclist
Crashlander42 wrote:
bennelong.bicyclist wrote:
But my original point stands: group-buys in which money changes hands are not compliant with CC BY-NC-SA licensing - I have edited my post above to make that clear.


Where are these group buys where money DOESN'T change hands? Am I missing out on free PCBs somewhere?!

If you looked at the prices you'll see this isn't exactly a for-profit group buy. I fail to see how this is considered commercial. This is people pooling money to do a run of PCBs.

This group buy was the REASON Dan was contacted, and he's given it his blessing. Just as Oliver has said he doesn't care about group buys of his PCBs as long as they're not passed off as commercial versions.


That's fine, and I am not the slightest bit worried by group-buys of 4ms or MI PCBs - that's Dan Green's and Oliver Gillet's business, nothing to do with me. Nor am I concerned in any way by people doing DIY builds of the 4ms SMRF, or Mutable designs, or any other open-source design - if that was not intended, then the designs would not have been open-sourced in the first place. And besides, I've done plenty of such builds myself.

I am just pointing out that group-buys in which money changes hands (and yes, that's all group-buys, by definition), regardless of whether it is done at-cost, for-profit, or for-loss, are not a permitted use under the terms of the CC BY-NC-SA license.
av500
bennelong.bicyclist wrote:

OK, I'm just pointing out that such group buys are not compliant with the wording of the CC BY-NC-SA license.


CC BY-NC-SA states: "A commercial use is one primarily intended for commercial advantage or monetary compensation."

the FAQ states: "This is intended to capture the intention of the NC-using community without placing detailed restrictions that are either too broad or too narrow" and further: "The inclusion of “primarily” in the definition recognizes that no activity is completely disconnected from commercial activity; it is only the primary purpose of the reuse that needs to be considered."

(bold emphasis mine)

so BY-NC-SA prohibiting a group buy is not a given to me.
bennelong.bicyclist
av500 wrote:
bennelong.bicyclist wrote:

OK, I'm just pointing out that such group buys are not compliant with the wording of the CC BY-NC-SA license.


CC BY-NC-SA states: "A commercial use is one primarily intended for commercial advantage or monetary compensation."

the FAQ states: "This is intended to capture the intention of the NC-using community without placing detailed restrictions that are either too broad or too narrow" and further: "The inclusion of “primarily” in the definition recognizes that no activity is completely disconnected from commercial activity; it is only the primary purpose of the reuse that needs to be considered."

(bold emphasis mine)

so BY-NC-SA prohibiting a group buy is not a given to me.


Surely the primary use (or re-use) of the PCB design files in such a group-buy is the exchange of a physical PCB in return for money to cover the costs of that PCB (+/- some profit or loss on the transaction)? If the PCBs were just given out, and a donation was requested, then arguably the monetary compensation in exchange for the PCBs would be secondary. But selling them, even at cost, seems to be primarily a commercial use as described by the CC license.

I think you are confusing the use of the physical PCB by the recipient with the use of the PCB design files by the person selling them through a group-buy. The former is fine under the CC BY-NC-SA license.

It is moot in the case of the 4ms SMRF given that Dan Green appears to have assented to group-buys of PCBs for it. My point was regarding a technicality of CC BY-NC-SA licensing, that's all.
cane creek
bennelong.bicyclist wrote:
is offering a "group-buy" of 4ms SMRF PCBs - see


Why are you linking a document which is part of a private close group on a public forum which contains peoples private information ?
bennelong.bicyclist
cane creek wrote:
bennelong.bicyclist wrote:
is offering a "group-buy" of 4ms SMRF PCBs - see


Why are you linking a document which is part of a private close group on a public forum which contains peoples private information ?


It is a publicly accessible document! Anyone with the URL can access it. I was sent the URL. There is nothing to indicate that it is a private document - there's even a blue SHARE button in the top right corner.

However, I agree, the wisdom of putting private data in a publicly-accessible document like that is questionable. Given that some of the people who have added their personal details to it may not be aware just how open the document is, I'll edit out the link from my post above.
synchromesh
cane creek wrote:
bennelong.bicyclist wrote:
is offering a "group-buy" of 4ms SMRF PCBs - see


Why are you linking a document which is part of a private close group on a public forum which contains peoples private information ?


I don't think linking to a Facebook page, closed group or not, counts as leaking anyone's private information. If it's on Facebook, it can't be that private to start with. And if it is that private, you won't see it via a public link, right?

EDIT: Oh, he was linking to the spreadsheet. Yeah, that's not really that private either.

bennelong.bicyclist is perfectly entitled to bring up his concerns so that we can all advance our understanding as a community.
cane creek
@synchromesh @bennelong.bicyclist, My Facebook page is publicly accessible however id be deeply disturbed if you posted my family photographs on this forum.

I'm pretty sure people put information on that sheet because it was in a part of the web only people in the know would be visiting, if they were aware people were going to post it on Muffwiggler i doubt they would of left their details on that document.
sendepause
cane creek wrote:
@synchromesh @bennelong.bicyclist, My Facebook page is publicly accessible however id be deeply disturbed if you posted my family photographs on this forum.

I'm pretty sure people put information on that sheet because it was in a part of the web only people in the know would be visiting, if they were aware people were going to post it on Muffwiggler i doubt they would of left their details on that document.


This is the main reason why bennelong.bicyclists action disturbs me the most. He stepped over a few "internet / social" boundaries. People accepted him in to a private group on facebook, starts waving the finger that everything is wrong. Then trows deliberately all the addresses of members on the internet by putting the link to the spreadsheet on Muff's. If privacy is so much a concern of you, dear sir, why in gods name have you done this?

I have a lot of respect for his work as a programmer (and in that his work for the community), and his concerns about copyright etc is fair. But i think these actions are a step to far... Sorry for my 2 cents
koerby
sendepause wrote:
cane creek wrote:
@synchromesh @bennelong.bicyclist, My Facebook page is publicly accessible however id be deeply disturbed if you posted my family photographs on this forum.

I'm pretty sure people put information on that sheet because it was in a part of the web only people in the know would be visiting, if they were aware people were going to post it on Muffwiggler i doubt they would of left their details on that document.


This is the main reason why bennelong.bicyclists action disturbs me the most. He stepped over a few "internet / social" boundaries. People accepted him in to a private group on facebook, starts waving the finger that everything is wrong. Then trows deliberately all the addresses of members on the internet by putting the link to the spreadsheet on Muff's. If privacy is so much a concern of you, dear sir, why in gods name have you done this?

I have a lot of respect for his work as a programmer (and in that his work for the community), and his concerns about copyright etc is fair. But i think these actions are a step to far... Sorry for my 2 cents


I totally agree.
bennelong.bicyclist
sendepause wrote:
cane creek wrote:
@synchromesh @bennelong.bicyclist, My Facebook page is publicly accessible however id be deeply disturbed if you posted my family photographs on this forum.

I'm pretty sure people put information on that sheet because it was in a part of the web only people in the know would be visiting, if they were aware people were going to post it on Muffwiggler i doubt they would of left their details on that document.


This is the main reason why bennelong.bicyclists action disturbs me the most. He stepped over a few "internet / social" boundaries. People accepted him in to a private group on facebook, starts waving the finger that everything is wrong. Then trows deliberately all the addresses of members on the internet by putting the link to the spreadsheet on Muff's. If privacy is so much a concern of you, dear sir, why in gods name have you done this?

I have a lot of respect for his work as a programmer (and in that his work for the community), and his concerns about copyright etc is fair. But i think these actions are a step to far... Sorry for my 2 cents


I removed the link to the spreadsheet assign as soon I realised there were full residential addresses in it - they aren't visible unless you scroll to the extreme right, and I honestly didn't see them when I first looked at the document. However, the URL for the spreadsheet was sent to me by email BEFORE I asked to join the Facebook group, and I was unaware that it was in any way "private" - until the fact that it contained personal details was pointed out to me. I don't apologise for bringing the fact that this is not a very good way to manage private data to the attention of the Facebook group concerned. Nor do I apologise for suggesting in that Facebook group that it is good practice to ask copyright holders whether they mind the sale by a third party of large numbers of PCBs for their design, especially when the copyright holder has licensed the design under a license which does not permit commercial use (regardless of whether it is for-profit or not).
cane creek
bennelong.bicyclist your an intelligent guy, I know what you were doing.
synchromesh
In the interests of full disclosure, I (John Pallister) am a member of the Facebook PCB group buy group (409 members and counting) and early on I put together a Google Docs spreadsheet that collected information and links about the Mutable Instruments modules, primarily as a resource for myself and others in the group who would be buying MI PCBs. The link to this spreadsheet is in my .sig below.

This spreadsheet also contains links back to the Facebook group and to the various group buy spreadsheets that have come up since March; again, this is provided to help the group members. My point is that to regard this information as necessarily particularly private when people have entered it themselves onto what are clearly publicly-accessible web pages is naïve at best. If people would be "deeply disturbed" to see content they've posted reappear elsewhere then the only safe approach is not to post it at all.

bennelong.bicyclist's posting of a link to the group buy spreadsheet here is no more malicious than my having a link to a link to it in my .sig. And if people don't like him asserting the rights of the creators of the IP in question (especially since he is one of them himself) and trying to verify that everyone involved understands and is trying to respect those rights, I think that says more about us than it does about him.
webboy
(deleted) See below
bennelong.bicyclist
webboy wrote:
However, the bottom line for me is that there are nice ways of going about informing people, and then there's acting like a self-appointed open source cop with an attitude. He is good at sounding polite, and factual, but it's clearly thinly veiled self-righteous contemptuousness. I somehow had this image in my head of this cool guy building orange modules and sharing awesome code. Now I just see an awesome coder, period. Kind of disappointing. I will still thank you for your work and generosity Timmy, that you deserve.


I am sorry to have disappointed you. And BTW I am not an awesome coder, as my work colleagues constantly remind me every time they look at my code - and that's not false modesty.

I suppose I have been disappointed too, by the repeated hostility each and every time I have raised what I thought were reasonable questions or expressed what I thought were supportable opinions and positions on how open-sourced material can and should be used (can and should being separate issues, both important) - and not just in this thread.

Anyway, all this has given me, and others with whom I collaborate on open-source synth stuff, some serious pause for thought.
webboy
FWIW I suddenly realized what my issue is with you Timmy. It's simple - I'm pretty pissed off about you- 1) posting peoples names and linking to our FB group / spreadsheet etc. here, and 2) joining our FB group just to investigate what's going on and leaving a day or two later, presumably because you got whatever it is you wanted. To me that's just not very considerate behaviour. You could have easily said everything you wanted to say without getting that specific.

The first post, I deleted, but since you quoted it, I have to live with it being out there. That's fine. Regardless, I do need to apologize. I should have kept my opinions to myself and just said what I really wanted to say in the first place.

Make no mistake, I'm not backpedalling because of anything you said, I just realized that I was actually attacking you, and that made me think twice. So again I apologize for lashing out and not just speaking my mind.
webboy
And by the way Timmy, don't you think there might be a reason for all the hostility? I don't know what you're pausing to think about, but there's something. I did not mean that as an attack or to be nasty either. I'm just saying - as usually is the case, this is a two-way street.
Dogma
Yes he rides a mighty high horse does BB.......a simple "im sorry- i made an error" would be the obvious, reasonable reply but instead we get a parade of excuses, none of which are exactly relevant here
.....
n167tx
Now its working 100%
This thing makes everything sounds beautiful.
Thanks for the support. Love you all

[/img]
cane creek
n167tx wrote:
Now its working 100%
This thing makes everything sounds beautiful.
Thanks for the support. Love you all

[/img]


Superb, like i said on Facebook you've climbed the mountain and i bet the view is beautiful.
koerby
n167tx wrote:
Now its working 100%
This thing makes everything sounds beautiful.
Thanks for the support. Love you all


Btw, what was the reason for the low sound issue?
av500
n167tx wrote:
Now its working 100%
This thing makes everything sounds beautiful.
Thanks for the support. Love you all

[/img]


LED rings ftw! applause
n167tx
koerby wrote:

Btw, what was the reason for the low sound issue?


Nothing really.
I just had to solder the rest of the jacks.
Just the Firmware was the annoying thing.
Thanks again marcus.

av500 wrote:

Btw, what was the reason for the low sound issue?


we need more LED rings
smile
ehafh
av500 wrote:
n167tx wrote:
Now its working 100%
This thing makes everything sounds beautiful.
Thanks for the support. Love you all

[/img]


LED rings ftw! applause


this is awesome, very inspiring.
i'm buying some from the pcb group buy and i'm determined to make at least 1 functional.
i've got a lot of training to do but i'm down for the adventure.

thumbs up
nicdro
there are a couple of questions left for me:
- which lightpipe size is correct? 5mm?
- what are these pads called "AGND, AGND-OPT, DGND, PG2, PG3, PG5, PG6"
so to speak what do i do with them?
thanks for all your posts! we're not worthy

Edit: And are the Kingbright LEDs the same as the Hebeil? There is a 13$ difference...
koerby
Quote:

- what are these pads called "AGND, AGND-OPT, DGND, PG2, PG3, PG5, PG6"


I assume these pads are for the In-Circuit test during the end of line in the production.
On final Pcb nothig is populated.
d.simon
agnd and dgnd are where analog and digial ground are connected.
analog ground is used on the analog side of the codec, and possibly some of the I/O buffering on that side
nicdro
d.simon wrote:
agnd and dgnd are where analog and digial ground are connected.
analog ground is used on the analog side of the codec, and possibly some of the I/O buffering on that side

so nothing to place here as koerby mentioned?
webboy
nicdro wrote:
there are a couple of questions left for me:
- which lightpipe size is correct? 5mm?
- what are these pads called "AGND, AGND-OPT, DGND, PG2, PG3, PG5, PG6"
so to speak what do i do with them?
thanks for all your posts! we're not worthy

Edit: And are the Kingbright LEDs the same as the Hebeil? There is a 13$ difference...


Altitude909 linked to the correct pipes - after he linked to the wrong ones. So look for the post in this thread where he says "crap I linked to the wrong ones...." The correct ones are there, I think they are 3mm, but it's up there. wink
d.simon
nicdro wrote:
d.simon wrote:
agnd and dgnd are where analog and digial ground are connected.
analog ground is used on the analog side of the codec, and possibly some of the I/O buffering on that side

so nothing to place here as koerby mentioned?


yes nothing to place. Have a look the 4ms page for SMR. They have a very good shot of the back of the board (showing blank pads on the PG and agnd/dgnd). If you notice, they don't place the boot switch or usb port either. Up to you on those.
webboy
nicdro wrote:
d.simon wrote:
agnd and dgnd are where analog and digial ground are connected.
analog ground is used on the analog side of the codec, and possibly some of the I/O buffering on that side

so nothing to place here as koerby mentioned?


You could also do "show agnd" etc. in Eagle and have a look at the signal path to see what's connected to it. (too lazy to turn off al the layers, sorry for the busy image.)

[/img]
d.simon
I like that long trace on agnd...has to be there to get to the output section on the "left" side of the board. The input and codec are on the right...
(either that...or not exactly sure why agnd was used on those particular left side connections., but the stereo outs have to follow a similar path from the codec to the panel jacks.)

I think agnd-opt is the pad in the lower right of that pic (just kind of sitting there).

The agnd/dgnd connection is in the upper right of that pic (above IC7) - theres a trace between the two agnd/dgnd pads. That's the only tie in AFAIK between the analog ground and the "proper" digital ground.

On the physical picture, you'll notice agnd/dgnd also in between the back side of one of the slider pots solder points.

Of course, the PGX pads are on the right side of the MCU.
Altitude909
webboy wrote:
nicdro wrote:
there are a couple of questions left for me:
- which lightpipe size is correct? 5mm?
- what are these pads called "AGND, AGND-OPT, DGND, PG2, PG3, PG5, PG6"
so to speak what do i do with them?
thanks for all your posts! we're not worthy

Edit: And are the Kingbright LEDs the same as the Hebeil? There is a 13$ difference...


Altitude909 linked to the correct pipes - after he linked to the wrong ones. So look for the post in this thread where he says "crap I linked to the wrong ones...." The correct ones are there, I think they are 3mm, but it's up there. wink


I fixed my original post to the right ones. 3mm is what you want
nicdro
Thanks to all of you guys!
Preparing the BOM based on Altitude909.

Still curious if the kingbright leds will work...
d.simon
nicdro wrote:
Thanks to all of you guys!
Preparing the BOM based on Altitude909.

Still curious if the kingbright leds will work...


Knightbright leds should work. They use the "HEBEI" package (pin 1 is red, pin 2 is anode, etc) . there are at least two mfg's with different pinouts for common annode leds - Cree mfg use a different pinout and would not be too great for the SMR.

nicdro
d.simon wrote:
nicdro wrote:
Thanks to all of you guys!
Preparing the BOM based on Altitude909.

Still curious if the kingbright leds will work...


Knightbright leds should work. They use the "HEBEI" package (pin 1 is red, pin 2 is anode, etc) . there are at least two mfg's with different pinouts for common annode leds - Cree mfg use a different pinout and would not be too great for the SMR.


Thanks!
So these would do the job right?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/290848637808
Altitude909
^
Pretty sure those are the ones I used
NV
nicdro wrote:
d.simon wrote:
nicdro wrote:
Thanks to all of you guys!
Preparing the BOM based on Altitude909.

Still curious if the kingbright leds will work...


Knightbright leds should work. They use the "HEBEI" package (pin 1 is red, pin 2 is anode, etc) . there are at least two mfg's with different pinouts for common annode leds - Cree mfg use a different pinout and would not be too great for the SMR.


Thanks!
So these would do the job right?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/290848637808


Those shouldn't work as is - while pin 2 is the anode for those, the pinout footprint does not match the SMR footprint. The common anode routing on the SMR board would instead land on the red cathode for those.

However if you're deep enough into DIY to attempt this project you could also just manually swap the traces on the Eagle file to match whichever LED footprint you choose. While the PLCC4 pinout is not universal, the sizing is and there is a good deal of empty estate around the SMR LEDs to route the traces differently if needed.
nicdro
NV wrote:
nicdro wrote:
d.simon wrote:
nicdro wrote:
Thanks to all of you guys!
Preparing the BOM based on Altitude909.

Still curious if the kingbright leds will work...


Knightbright leds should work. They use the "HEBEI" package (pin 1 is red, pin 2 is anode, etc) . there are at least two mfg's with different pinouts for common annode leds - Cree mfg use a different pinout and would not be too great for the SMR.


Thanks!
So these would do the job right?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/290848637808


Those shouldn't work as is - while pin 2 is the anode for those, the pinout footprint does not match the SMR footprint. The common anode routing on the SMR board would instead land on the red cathode for those.

However if you're deep enough into DIY to attempt this project you could also just manually swap the traces on the Eagle file to match whichever LED footprint you choose. While the PLCC4 pinout is not universal, the sizing is and there is a good deal of empty estate around the SMR LEDs to route the traces differently if needed.

ok now i get it. thanks!
d.simon
Let me double check the .brd again. Trying to figure out the right pinout on these RGB leds is like an optical illusion. At least in my case, I know the Cree footprint is not good. (it can work, but requires a lot of buss wire). On the good side : increase your ECO skills!

If people are having success with the ebay ones then great. So far I've seen at least 3 pinouts for that plcc4 package (Cree, Knightbright, and the Ebay ones)

I think in theory there's 4!/2 different pinouts for a rectangular, 4-pin device.
So that would be 4*3*2*1 / 2 = 12 different permutations. I divide by 2 because of rotation.
av500
just put a wall of jumpers around the LEDs, then you can adapt to any LED pinout...

been there, done that:

nicdro


the hebei should be right as you mentioned, b.simon
as far as i can tell..
very confusing as there is always another orientation hmmm.....
d.simon
nicdro - you flipped the image correct? Because the 4ms .brd has the LED's on the back side. Just FYI.

its funny though if you look at the ebay "device photo", it looks like the common node is at a different location then their schematic. According to the schematic, the common node is catty-corrner to the cathode mark. But the physical photo shows it on the same "long side" as the cathode mark. Also, it doesn't look very rectangular in the photo. Are these actually square?

also, FYI I researched the actual mfg "Hebei" and their data sheet is a little different from the Knightbright one (anode looks like its in the right spot, but some colors are swapped. I think G<->B)
nicdro
i think i figured it out!





according to this 1 is RED.
nicdro
d.simon wrote:
nicdro - you flipped the image correct? Because the 4ms .brd has the LED's on the back side. Just FYI.


yes i did!

According to the schematics of the SMR (i did not flipped the board):



So...the kingbright do have the B and G switched in comparison to the SMR.
d.simon
Yep...that's what I got...but here's with the image flipped for reference.



so clockwise from the upper left pin : R + B G

I also checked the source code to verify that's in fact how 4ms is using those outputs of the pwm controllers.

What I figured for anyone sourcing LED parts: if you don't care about color, there's about a 50% chance you'll get the anode in the right spot. assuming either:
a. you randomly pick a mfg'r without studying the datasheets
b. you take a gamble on ebay

Besides the anode, there's the color. If any color(s) is in the wrong spot, you either live with it, or modify the driver in the code. It didn't seem to be that big of a deal to do, but it is a hassle.

I also learned both Cree and Kingbright sell different packages with the anode in either spot, so it is possible to go "right" or "wrong" with either of those mfgr's.

also : I just bought about 100 of those led's on ebay for about $8 USD.
compared to some sites selling like kingbrights 2 for $30 or some huge amount.
nicdro
d.simon wrote:
Yep...that's what I got...but here's with the image flipped for reference.



so clockwise from the upper left pin : R + B G

I also checked the source code to verify that's in fact how 4ms is using those outputs of the pwm controllers.

What I figured for anyone sourcing LED parts: if you don't care about color, there's about a 50% chance you'll get the anode in the right spot. assuming either:
a. you randomly pick a mfg'r without studying the datasheets
b. you take a gamble on ebay

Besides the anode, there's the color. If any color(s) is in the wrong spot, you either live with it, or modify the driver in the code. It didn't seem to be that big of a deal to do, but it is a hassle.

I also learned both Cree and Kingbright sell different packages with the anode in either spot, so it is possible to go "right" or "wrong" with either of those mfgr's.

also : I just bought about 100 of those led's on ebay for about $8 USD.
compared to some sites selling like kingbrights 2 for $30 or some huge amount.

Unfortunately i couldn't figure out how to switch blue and green codewise in the driver... so i'll go for trial and error i guess...
even the musical scales wont be as the manual reads hmmm.....
nicdro
Quote:
void LEDDriver_set_LED_ring(uint16_t ring[20][3], uint16_t env_out[6][3]){
uint8_t i,driverAddr;

for (driverAddr=0;driverAddr<4;driverAddr++){
LEDDriver_startxfer(driverAddr);
LEDDriver_senddata(PCA9685_LED0);

for (i=driverAddr*5;i<(5+(driverAddr*5));i++){
LEDDriver_senddata(0); //on-time = 0
LEDDriver_senddata(0);
LEDDriver_senddata(ring[i][0] & 0xFF); //off-time = brightness
LEDDriver_senddata((ring[i][0] >> 8) & 0xFF);

LEDDriver_senddata(0); //on-time = 0
LEDDriver_senddata(0);
LEDDriver_senddata(ring[i][1] & 0xFF); //off-time = brightness
LEDDriver_senddata((ring[i][1] >> 8) & 0xFF);

LEDDriver_senddata(0); //on-time = 0
LEDDriver_senddata(0);
LEDDriver_senddata(ring[i][2] & 0xFF); //off-time = brightness
LEDDriver_senddata((ring[i][2] >> 8) & 0xFF);

}

//Channel 6 ENVOUT LED: Blue
if (driverAddr==2){
LEDDriver_senddata(0);
LEDDriver_senddata(0);
LEDDriver_senddata(env_out[5][2] & 0xFF);
LEDDriver_senddata((env_out[5][2] >> 8) & 0xFF);
}

//Channel 6 ENVOUT LED: Green
if (driverAddr==3){
LEDDriver_senddata(0);
LEDDriver_senddata(0);
LEDDriver_senddata(env_out[5][1] & 0xFF);
LEDDriver_senddata((env_out[5][1] >> 8) & 0xFF);
}

LEDDriver_endxfer();
}

driverAddr=4;
LEDDriver_startxfer(driverAddr);
LEDDriver_senddata(PCA9685_LED0);

for (i=0;i<5;i++){
LEDDriver_senddata(0); //on-time = 0
LEDDriver_senddata(0);
LEDDriver_senddata(env_out[i][0] & 0xFF); //off-time = brightness
LEDDriver_senddata((env_out[i][0] >> 8) & 0xFF);

LEDDriver_senddata(0); //on-time = 0
LEDDriver_senddata(0);
LEDDriver_senddata(env_out[i][1] & 0xFF); //off-time = brightness
LEDDriver_senddata((env_out[i][1] >> 8) & 0xFF);

LEDDriver_senddata(0); //on-time = 0
LEDDriver_senddata(0);
LEDDriver_senddata(env_out[i][2] & 0xFF); //off-time = brightness
LEDDriver_senddata((env_out[i][2] >> 8) & 0xFF);

}

//Channel 6 ENVOUT LED: Red
LEDDriver_senddata(0); //on-time = 0
LEDDriver_senddata(0);
LEDDriver_senddata(env_out[5][0] & 0xFF); //off-time = brightness
LEDDriver_senddata((env_out[5][0] >> 8) & 0xFF);

LEDDriver_endxfer();

}


this is the passage i guess in pca9685_driver.c

0 is RED
1 is GREEN
2 is BLUE

right?

ENV_OUT Channel 6 is connected to another chip for each color according to the schematics.
nicdro
Does flashing work with a FDTI Friend or do I need the STM32F4 Discovery board?
Thanks!
Altitude909
nicdro wrote:
Does flashing work with a FDTI Friend or do I need the STM32F4 Discovery board?
Thanks!

SWD only, there is no serial header
d.simon
nicdro wrote:

this is the passage i guess in pca9685_driver.c

0 is RED
1 is GREEN
2 is BLUE

right?

ENV_OUT Channel 6 is connected to another chip for each color according to the schematics.


yes that looks correct. Do you need to change the code because you have the kingbrights? It could be the ones from ebay are okay.

the second dimension for each reference to "ring" and "env_out" can be swapped - instead of hard-coding it, you could add defines in that file to make it easier to swap (or just for fun).

The are two structures : ring and env_out. "ring" is for the 20 led's in the ring and env_out are for the "envelope out" for the six channels.

As you see, the 16 channels of each pca9685 are divided amongst the ring and env_out. The ring is divided into 4 sets of 5 (for i2c addrs 0-3). The env_out for ch 1-5 are on the pca9685 with address 4. env_out for ch 6 is split on i2c addrs 2,3,and 4. Its also possible on the .brd to verify those addrs if desired.
nicdro
d.simon wrote:
nicdro wrote:

this is the passage i guess in pca9685_driver.c

0 is RED
1 is GREEN
2 is BLUE

right?

ENV_OUT Channel 6 is connected to another chip for each color according to the schematics.


yes that looks correct. Do you need to change the code because you have the kingbrights? It could be the ones from ebay are okay.

the second dimension for each reference to "ring" and "env_out" can be swapped - instead of hard-coding it, you could add defines in that file to make it easier to swap (or just for fun).

The are two structures : ring and env_out. "ring" is for the 20 led's in the ring and env_out are for the "envelope out" for the six channels.

As you see, the 16 channels of each pca9685 are divided amongst the ring and env_out. The ring is divided into 4 sets of 5 (for i2c addrs 0-3). The env_out for ch 1-5 are on the pca9685 with address 4. env_out for ch 6 is split on i2c addrs 2,3,and 4. Its also possible on the .brd to verify those addrs if desired.

i thought those on ebay do not have the right place of the anode thogh - referring to their schematics!?

adding defines would exceed my coding knowledge (its actually near to zero) - haha. My main goal is to provide the files adjusted to the common leds (such as kingbright and the hebei led) for wigglers who dont know where to change it in the sourcecode.
can anyone try switching the numbers and see if it works?
d.simon
nicdro wrote:

i thought those on ebay do not have the right place of the anode thogh - referring to their schematics!?


I'm not so sure those ebay schematics are correct. plus it sounds like altitude909 used those ones. If you check that seller, they have other auctions for those led's and it appears they changed the schematic at some point. That same seller even has an auction with two different schematics for the same product. I don't think there's any guarantee they'll work. But they might...just "buyer beware".
koerby
Waiting for the lightpipes

n167tx
looks beautiful Markus
ArguZ
Hi guys,

do we have a proper Mouser project/cart for this one now ?
I am itching to build one myself smile
livefreela
congrats koerby - that magpie panel looks really nice all built up!
synchromesh
I have created a Mouser BOM project (and an Octopart BOM project) for the SMR 1.0.1, based largely on Altitude909's Mouser part numbers. I have the Kingbright RGB LEDs and the 3mm lightpipes. It doesn't have the 1x3 & 1x4 headers, the sockets, or the USB socket; if someone gives me Mouser part numbers for those I'll add them (via my spreadsheet).

Any comments, criticisms, confirmations and/or corrections gratefully received.
insula
synchromesh wrote:
I have created a Mouser BOM project (and an Octopart BOM project) for the SMR 1.0.1, based largely on Altitude909's Mouser part numbers. I have the Kingbright RGB LEDs and the 3mm lightpipes. It doesn't have the 1x3 & 1x4 headers, the sockets, or the USB socket; if someone gives me Mouser part numbers for those I'll add them (via my spreadsheet).

Any comments, criticisms, confirmations and/or corrections gratefully received.


we're not worthy we're not worthy
koerby
livefreela wrote:
congrats koerby - that magpie panel looks really nice all built up!

n167tx wrote:
looks beautiful Markus


thank you guys, the Magpie-Panel is gorgeous and worth every cent
n167tx
I forgot to post this here.
Panel looks really cool, im really happy with the results.
Here is also a folder with the files. If anyone wants to lasercut it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6cv906bphnj64lk/SMR.zip?dl=0



av500
n167tx wrote:
I forgot to post this here.
Panel looks really cool, im really happy with the results.
Here is also a folder with the files. If anyone wants to lasercut it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6cv906bphnj64lk/SMR.zip?dl=0



LED circles left and right It's peanut butter jelly time!
nicdro
I have the same issue as n167tx. Firmware flashed but erased on next boot. Cant use his combo.hex he sent me to correct this error cause im using discovery board on mac. any ideas? thanks!
nicdro
figured it out... thanks to koerby. you should compile and upload the bootloader as well d'oh!
i finished it but i get very little sound out of it. the whole module is super quiet when self-osc or with any input given. the leds for the env outs are super low light as well... where should i find the problem?
ishkabbible
I have not seen this addressed here yet. There is an error in the schematics on github - the values for R124 and R126 have been swapped. THe symptoms are:
1) 0.5V / octave response on the ODD frequency input, and
2) 0 - 5V on the ROTATE input only rotates half way.
The correct values are:
R124: 49K (49.9K)
R126: 200K

Acquadar
You are heroes...
auxren
n167tx wrote:
Its a start smile

I flashed it succesfully with STLinkV2, following Dans instructions on Github, but everytime i unplug it, i have this lights and have to flash it again.

Soon i will start the 7000 page Unsuccesful build thread.

[/img]


Did you ever figure it out? I have the same issue with having to reflash it after powering it back up.
av500
auxren wrote:

Did you ever figure it out? I have the same issue with having to reflash it after powering it back up.


taking a wild guess, maybe the CPU does not come out of reset properly and the flasher resets it. can you find the NRST line of the CPU and short it to GND shortly to give it a clean reset?
auxren
av500 wrote:
auxren wrote:

Did you ever figure it out? I have the same issue with having to reflash it after powering it back up.


taking a wild guess, maybe the CPU does not come out of reset properly and the flasher resets it. can you find the NRST line of the CPU and short it to GND shortly to give it a clean reset?


Interesting thought. I'll give it a go tonight. Thanks!
auxren
av500 wrote:
auxren wrote:

Did you ever figure it out? I have the same issue with having to reflash it after powering it back up.


taking a wild guess, maybe the CPU does not come out of reset properly and the flasher resets it. can you find the NRST line of the CPU and short it to GND shortly to give it a clean reset?


NRST is high unless I press the button. When I press the button, nothing happens.
The BOOT0 line is always high even though when the button isn't pressed, there is a 10k pulling it low.
auxren
I think my IPA cleaning bath screwed around with the BOOT0 button; it had 600 ohms across it unpressed. Removed it and now it's remembering the firmware.

Now to figure out why the encoder button isn't doing anything and why there isn't any audio coming out.
bemerritt
Anyone have a spare pcb?
Jcsveth
Is there a published compiled firmware for this board? I am having a hard time getting the environment to work under Windows. I am lost embarrassingly early in the process - specifically here (from the GitHub Windows notes):

Make sure git is installed on your system. (OSX: type "brew install git" into the Terminal)
Create a work directory, and enter it.
Clone this project (SMR), stmlib, and the stm-audio-bootloader projects:
git clone https://github.com/4ms/SMR.git
git clone https://github.com/4ms/stmlib.git
git clone https://github.com/4ms/stm-audio-bootloader.git


I know it took a long time for the Mutable files to get shared as peopled considered the compiling of the firmware was a 'right of passage' but I hope this is not the case here.
mattfearsatan
Hey there,

Wondering if anyone with particular experience with STMs might be able to help with an issue I’m having flashing my SMR?

First off, when I switch on my SMR I get the LED ring lighting up all white, and I’ve checked that the STM is getting the right power, and all looks honky dory.

Next, I’m using an ST Link 2 and the ST Link Utility under Windows - I’ve made sure the utility and firmware is up to date.

In terms of what’s going wrong - once I’ve connected to the chip, whenever I try to program it I get an error saying ‘Internal Command Error’, and then the connection is lost. I can reconnect to the chip immediately, but again when I try to program it, I get the same error.

I can only connect to the STM using the ‘Hot Plug’ mode - the ‘Connect under reset’ and ‘Normal’ modes don’t seem to like me. And when I enable live update in the main window the Core State recognises when I hit the reset button, and then it goes into ‘Halted’ - so communications must be working to a certain extent.

I’m using a combo .hex file which others have used without issue, but I don’t think the specific softawre I’m trying to program is the issue, as even when I try the ‘Erase Chip’ option I get exactly the same error.

I’ve not been able to find much help on this error (that I understand!) through Google. I saw that someone in the DIY Noobs Facebook group had the same error as me, and using a different PC seemed to make it work. Unfortunately I don’t have that luxury! (And I can’t think how that would change things - although if it helps diagnose the issue, I’m using a MacBook Pro under Boot Camp, so I wonder if there’s any funnies given that they have USB 3.0 ports rather than USB 2.0…? But I’ve flashed plenty of Mutables without these hitches.)

Anyone got any bright ideas?
GaloBa
Hello,

I installed all the SMR hardware.

But I'm having the same troubles as mattfearsatan:

In terms of what’s going wrong - once I’ve connected to the chip, whenever I try to program it I get an error saying ‘Internal Command Error’, and then the connection is lost. I can reconnect to the chip immediately, but again when I try to program it, I get the same error.

I can only connect to the STM using the ‘Hot Plug’ mode - the ‘Connect under reset’ and ‘Normal’ modes don’t seem to like me. And when I enable live update in the main window the Core State recognises when I hit the reset button, and then it goes into ‘Halted’ - so communications must be working to a certain extent.

I’m using a combo .hex file which others have used without issue, but I don’t think the specific softawre I’m trying to program is the issue, as even when I try the ‘Erase Chip’ option I get exactly the same error.


hmmm..... very frustrating
av500
and the power supply checks out ok?
GaloBa
Yes av500, the energy consumption is OK.

We are inside the ST, due to the STLink recognizes the STM32F4, but we can only access via Hot Pug Mode.

There are three things:
- All the PCB is mounted (I think that this would not affect).
- All the connections of the ST, which affect the programming are OK. But re-checking the micro, I found out that many pins were not already soldered. I corrected this issue, and tomorrow I will try again to program.
- And, what about the SW1?.

Cheers!!
GaloBa
DONE!!!
AlanP
What was the issue?
GaloBa
the issue was the stlink to 4-pin(SWD) plugging.
3.3 V to Vcc.
SWDCLK to Pin 9 (TCLK).
GND to Pin 6 (GND).
SWDIO to Pin 7 (TMS)

Unfortunatily, now I have another issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrMg6glKSwc

As u can see at the video, the flashing process is apparently OK. But unplugging STLink and Power (12V), and repowering the module, it seems like the program flies away.... hmmm..... hmmm..... hmmm..... hmmm.....
GaloBa
IT is alive It's peanut butter jelly time! It's peanut butter jelly time! It's peanut butter jelly time! It's peanut butter jelly time! It's peanut butter jelly time!
https://www.facebook.com/galoternura69/videos/1175298325914678/
mattfearsatan
GaloBa wrote:
the issue was the stlink to 4-pin(SWD) plugging.
3.3 V to Vcc.
SWDCLK to Pin 9 (TCLK).
GND to Pin 6 (GND).
SWDIO to Pin 7 (TMS)


Thank you so much! I don't know what weird pin connections I was using previously, but this one is right. Yay, now I have a working SMR (apart from the LED on the sixth slider doesn't come on, but I can live with that/figure out what I've messed up)
Delabelle
Hello everybody, can somebody tell me which sliders i need now for the smr. On the github BOM there are 50K sliders and on the BOM here there is mentionned 100K sliders? And what do you know, I ordered parts like on Github.
danielanez
WOW, just read the whole thread. Thanks everyone for all your information and comments, and even the disagreements on licencing where very informative!

Wanted to hear back from successful builders about two issues in the thread:
1. the Knightbright LED: are they the right ones, or have they inverted corners?

2. Swapping of values of r124 and r126? Can anyone besides ishkabbible confirm?

Crossing my fingers not to screw up this one. It would be a 200$ fail!!!!
Stobbert
Is there a chance to download the combo.hex file somewhere? thx
gwpt
Hi, I know this thread is old but hoping someone can help

I've partially finished building my SMR (nothing top side yet) and wanted to give programming it a bash.

I've create the combo.hex file and I've made an SWD adapter cable for my ST-LINK v2

When I try and connect to the device (circuit powered and voltages seem ok) I get the following error in the STM32 ST-LINK Utilty app:

>> ST-Link/V2 device detected
>> Target voltage detected: 3.205748
>> Error getting target IDCODE: if SWD, check SWD connection
>> Error (4) while initializing ST-Link in SWD mode

Any tips or pointers would be appreciated.

Should I be holder down the S1 (Boot0) when I apply the power?
Do I need to do any other button presses (reset?) after power up?
Should I connect the +12v/-12v power or is it powered from the programmer?
Should the SWD frequency be 4mhz?
Should the programmer mode be 'normal / software system reset'?

Thanks
zorglub76
@gwpt, you only need to connect the module to eurorack PSU, connect SWD to ST-Link and flash the bin (or hex - I have no idea what's the difference) file. No buttons needed.

Or at least I think so. I flashed the firmware that way, I can see the lights, rotate them using encoder, spread them using the pot, slow them down using the morph pot. I can light the ENV leds using "freq nudge" pots.

My problem is that ENV leds stay off, and I can't hear any sound (no white noise when I make that most basic patch). I think that output is ok, but something that makes those ENV leds off, also prevents any sound escaping the chip.

Any ideas, anyone?
sillyhatsclub
question for any of y'all kind enough to lend a hand:

i just picked up a DIY SMR built by someone else and when i try to update the firmware to v5, the process appears to work but then once i go to use the SMR, the rotate knob becomes almost totally unresponsive as do the morph/spread. I bumped it back down to v4 and everything seems to be working fine again, but i'm wondering if anyone knows why v5 might be having an issue and if there are any steps i can take to try and solve this?
danielanez
I started my SMR today, soldering only the power section. Tomorrow I'll check my voltages and continue with CPU. I see the last 3 questions in this forum have gone mostly unanswered, and that posts stopped happening regularly in 2017... Hopefully, if I ever need any of you, you'll happen to be checking out this thread for old times sake...
veets
danielanez wrote:
I started my SMR today, soldering only the power section. Tomorrow I'll check my voltages and continue with CPU. I see the last 3 questions in this forum have gone mostly unanswered, and that posts stopped happening regularly in 2017... Hopefully, if I ever need any of you, you'll happen to be checking out this thread for old times sake...


I'm glad you posted this. I didn't even know there was such a project, though now I see there are occasional SMR assembly workshops sponsored by 4MS. Did you have any trouble sourcing parts?
danielanez
veets wrote:
Did you have any trouble sourcing parts?


Up to now, no. But I'm building it little by little and ordering little by little. I'm building two at the same time. So for the moment, I bought only the components for the Power and the CPU sections, which are 17. I did the power section of one two days ago and I have to spend some time checking the voltages before I do the other one.

Right now, I'm reading through this thread and wondering where the Kingbright LED issue ended. Are they the good ones? Or do they have the colours inverted? Or the anode? Anyhow, I won't worry about that for the moment. Anyhow, I'm going to try mine to have the right colours. I took out the BOM from the content of this thread. In the BOM I took, there was no Mouser number for the USB port, but I looked the reference given in the BOM, and found that Mouser had it. It's:

200-MUSB05FBSMATR

But up to now, everything seems a Mouser thing, excepting the Thonk jacks and the headers.
veets
Best of luck to you. Please keep us updated on your progress.
jonbutler88
Sorry to necro this thread (again), but could anyone give any more details about the debugging process for a factory SMR unit using the ST-Link v2 programmer? I'm using the pinout mentioned further up this thread:

3.3 V to Vcc.
SWDCLK to Pin 9 (TCLK).
GND to Pin 6 (GND).
SWDIO to Pin 7 (TMS)

I'm using pin 19 for the Vcc as it's marked as 3.3v, and using this I can power up the SMR board from the ST-Linkv2 with no problem, but I can't get either the St-Link utility or Keil to recognise the board or break and halt the CPU. I have a few specific questions:

* Do you have to power the module from the eurorack PSU to program and debug the STM32 chip on the SMR? If so, do you also connect the 3.3v Vcc and GND pins during this process?
* Does anyone have the set of correct configurations for the ST-Link utility to talk to the chip? E.g. Modes, speeds, Normal / Hotplug / Connect under reset?
jonbutler88
Answering my own question - the pinout I was using was almost correct, except I should have been using Pin 1 or 2 for Vcc instead of Pin 19. This won't actually power the SMR from the programmer, but it will detect power (and the programmer needs this signal to work). As a result, the module also needs to be powered on from the standard eurorack power supply.

After connecting things up correctly, the programmer recognised the chip with no problem in the standard configurations in both ST-Link Utility and Keil.
jgoney
I have a couple questions for those of you have have built this or have a retail one. Just trying to clarify whether mine is working correctly, or if I need to revisit my build for debugging:

1. I used this encoder, and when I rotate it, it double triggers, i.e., it skips two notes instead of just one. I don't guess this is normal, so does anyone have any idea why this might happen?

2. Channels 1, 3, and 5 are a bit sharp with nothing patched and the nudge pot at minimum. I've seen other posts about this. Could it just be poor tolerance of the nudge pot creating a voltage offset at the ADC? Is there any way to calibrate this to compensate for this?

3. The output of this (with nothing patched in the inputs) and even with Q at maximum seems low (~2Vpp) compared to other Eurorack modules. Is this normal or is it possible I have a problem with the build somewhere?

Thanks!
duno
Does anyone have a front panel layout by any chance?
j450nn014n
duno wrote:
Does anyone have a front panel layout by any chance?


There's a Facebook group SMR group buy. The person running that may have info on panel layout.
Altitude909
attached.
duno
Altitude909 wrote:
attached.


Thanks!
rthorntn
Hi All,

To the people who have built this, did you go in a particular order of components and what type of soldering tip did you use?

I have soldered the CPU, DAC, LED drivers and Opamps under a stereo microscope with a hoof tip.

I ordered the SMT power module by mistake and so I'm waiting for the PTH.

What soldering order worked for you all, diodes, caps then resistors?

I'm tempted to solder an area at a time (diodes, caps, resistors), sort of soldering in a circle around the IC's, so that I can leave some space for the tip, thoughts?

Has anyone just done say all 114 of the 1K resistors one after the other and then moved on to all of another value?

Any other tips?

It's going to be a very slow build.

Thanks.

Richard

PS: I have smr_rear27.jpg as my desktop background, using some of that Sun Tzu wisdom.
d.simon
rthorntn wrote:


Any other tips?



I've heard during debug with continuity check...some people fry the MCU with a voltmeter - something like the continuity check from the multimeter output too high a voltage...like 3.3v vs 5v?

rthorntn wrote:

PS: I have smr_rear27.jpg as my desktop background, using some of that Sun Tzu wisdom.


Yeah ... I like that 4ms has those back shots of their modules. some sort of engineering/gear porn for a certain segment of the population.
rthorntn
Thanks d.simon.

It seems the "google" consensus is a cheap DMM would do that, if you have a good DMM with low voltage and current for continuity checks then its more likely to be ESD, no?

Update - I checked and my 121GW continuity mode is 2.5V open and 0.57mA shorted. Modern IC's should have basic clamping diode protection on I/O ports the web says that's good up to at least 2kV and 5mA.
danielanez
Hello rthorntn,

I'm also building one myself at this time. I finished soldering Power and CPU sections, and I'm waiting for a friend's help to upload the firmware. I'm building two at the same time, one for him, one for me.
markelm
Just finished mine! Thanks to everyone, reading this thread was very useful!

Does anybody know if the module needs any kind of calibration?
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