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So how do you like your Verbos Scan&Pan?
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Author So how do you like your Verbos Scan&Pan?
huffnPuff
Hey'all, I'm interested in this little fella, thought I'd drop a few questions to Scan and Pan users:

First, do voices keep their position in the stereo image now that a few resistors have been changed, or is this still an issue?

I have the ATC and really like it, possibly because of its discreet nature. Saturation sounds just awesome. Does the gain stage on the P&S sound anything like it?

Finally, if I understand correctly you cannot blend a voice into the mix by using slow modulation into the center and width jacks? The changes are always abrupt? Is this true, and if so is it any different than the RxMx?

I like the size, sliders are potentially cool (unless the curves are all wrong) and the use of discreet transistors may have its benefits, but what are the drawbacks I should be aware of - if any?

Thanks!
The Illuminaire
Loved it when I had it. It does things that about only two other modules can do, but does with the least HP real estate if I recall correctly.

The only question I can really answer of yours is in regards to Center and Width jacks. The changes are not always abrupt; they are dependent on the smoothness of CV that they're being fed.

I only sold mine because I bought a KOMA Poltergeist. Otherwise I would've never parted ways with it.
The Illuminaire
(Accidental double-post)
Mirrorad
My S&P just arrived, but haven't had an opportunity to test drive it yet. My 6 month old is very curious about all the blinking lights, the stereo cacophony, and the colorful patch cables. But they don't feed her or change diapers, so it has to wait.

Will report back asap Guinness ftw!
huffnPuff
Thanks!
pugix
I like mine quite well. The input gain pots let you set a maximum level for the channel. I've not experimented very much with the overdrive, though.

The yellow/red leds are very useful in telling what's going on. There are so many controls over the level of each channel, it can be a little confusing.

I wish that Verbos had provided a block diagram and more description of how the controls interact. There are eight gain cells that have a slider and a pan pot impacting them, plus three CVs: level, pan, scan. How these combine isn't perfectly clear. Do they add or multiply? You just have to play with it and discover how it works.
huffnPuff
pugix wrote:

You just have to play with it and discover how it works.


This is typical with Verbos modules.

There's still some stuff I'd like to know before I commit to buy the module, I can not demo it locally so muff's my only source of info.

Primarily:

1. Stability of channels in the stereo image regardless of changes in level settings. This was an issue with the 1st modules, and has been somewhat improved by changing some resistors.
2. Whether Center and Width controls allow gradual fade in/ out of voices (with a slow lfo or knob tweak).
3. How gain and overdrive work/ sound compared to the ATC that I love

The rumored expander module changes diapers and puts babies to sleep, any info on price and availability?
Worwell
huffnPuff wrote:
pugix wrote:

You just have to play with it and discover how it works.


This is typical with Verbos modules.

There's still some stuff I'd like to know before I commit to buy the module, I can not demo it locally so muff's my only source of info.

Primarily:

1. Stability of channels in the stereo image regardless of changes in level settings. This was an issue with the 1st modules, and has been somewhat improved by changing some resistors.
2. Whether Center and Width controls allow gradual fade in/ out of voices (with a slow lfo or knob tweak).
3. How gain and overdrive work/ sound compared to the ATC that I love

The rumored expander module changes diapers and puts babies to sleep, any info on price and availability?


1. Not an issue on new models and older ones can be fixed.
2. I don't believe so. It operates similarly to the width and center controls on the Harmonic Oscillator.
3. Pleasant but not nearly as pronounced as the drive on the ATC.
I highly recommend this module. It's very nice.
huffnPuff
Thanks!
dmuirw
Its got a lot of headroom and the VCAs are good but its disappointing theres not a headphones cue for each channel and mute button. To common an issue with mixers. I don't get it. WMDs mixer is very well thought out which is hopefully gonna be available soon.
huffnPuff
Yes, a headphones output would've been great. Still, this module packs a lot in 14hp.
pugix
huffnPuff wrote:
Yes, a headphones output would've been great. Still, this module packs a lot in 14hp.


How I solved the headphone issue.

http://pugix.com/synth/mangling-system-output-management/
GryphonP3
[quote="Worwell"]
huffnPuff wrote:



2. I don't believe so. It operates similarly to the width and center controls on the Harmonic Oscillator.


Damn! I was hoping it would be a bit smoother. I love my harmonic oscillator, but smooth transitions in blending the width are not its strong points. I really like the rxmx's blending response, so I was hoping the scan & pan would have smoother blend behavior as it is a focused mixing module rather than an additive sound generator.
huffnPuff
Smooth would have been nice. Was thinking of using a super slow LFO such as the Sloth for gradual and subtle variations in drones.
Worwell
huffnPuff wrote:
Smooth would have been nice. Was thinking of using a super slow LFO such as the Sloth for gradual and subtle variations in drones.


You can use the four included VCAs for that.
huffnPuff
Yes, I guess so.

Different workflow and results, but arguably less of an issue in comparison to the HO because a) the latter has 8 channels and b) those channels are harmonically related. I'd imagine scanning plays a bigger role in how one would use it (the HO).

Not a deal breaker. I like the tones I'm getting from the CO and ATC, so if it (S&P) has a similar sound character then I think/ hope I will really like it.
wigwig
Thinking of getting one...
Any way to tell if a given S&P is old or new?

Worwell wrote:
huffnPuff wrote:



1. Stability of channels in the stereo image regardless of changes in level settings. This was an issue with the 1st modules, and has been somewhat improved by changing some resistors...


1. Not an issue on new models and older ones can be fixed.
wigwig
huffnPuff

Did you end up getting this?
Your concern #1 is also mine.
Wondering what you think...
noisejockey
Mine has a version number on the PCB, printed very clearly, but mine simply says "version 1."

Worried at first it would be duplicative with a Harmonic Oscillator, but it totally is worth it. I love sending two-channel delays, reverb, and dry all into it separately. Soooo trippy when modulated. Heck, if you look at it as a mixing VCA bank, it's handy too, even if you don't choose to scan inputs in a given patch.
wigwig
Great. Thanks noisejockey.
I didn't know there was an explicit ID of version #.
This should help.

But maybe I ask since you seem happy with v1:
Stability of levels in stereo isn't a problem for you?

Thanks


noisejockey wrote:
Mine has a version number on the PCB, printed very clearly, but mine simply says "version 1."

Worried at first it would be duplicative with a Harmonic Oscillator, but it totally is worth it. I love sending two-channel delays, reverb, and dry all into it separately. Soooo trippy when modulated. Heck, if you look at it as a mixing VCA bank, it's handy too, even if you don't choose to scan inputs in a given patch.
huffnPuff
wigwig wrote:
huffnPuff

Did you end up getting this?
Your concern #1 is also mine.
Wondering what you think...


I was considering it for a second rack but that plan never came through. Sorry, can't help.
pyjamarama
I notice when I try and pan my Mx-4s I need to do so with a bipolar lfo (with the pan knob centered). otherwise it will always pan from center to just one direction or another. which makes using something like mannequins just friends a no no for this job.

I wonder would the scan and pan also require bipolar LFO's to pan in both directions?

I'm kind of hoping will stand corrected on the LFO thing for the Mx-4s actually.. but either way would be good to know if the scan and pan can pan hard left and right with cv from something like friends as would be a great match.
huffnPuff
With the MX-4S you can pan manually to the left and use 0-10v CV to pan right, can't you? It seems to work with my copy anyway.
pyjamarama
no that only gets me from the left to center position. at least with just friends anyway.

if I use a strong offset like maths chan2 between JF and the Mx-4s I can get it to move over to the right that way but I'd need four of those between the lfo and pan which seems like a scenic route to the objective to say the least. smile

what mod sources do you use to pan the 4s?

I'm waiting for a ph-8 which I'm hoping will be up to the task amongst other things.
huffnPuff
Did you measure the CV? I suspect it only outputs 0-5v. I use Maths as a CV source (one of the channels is aprox -10 to +10 and the other half of that).

Moving the pan pot manually to the left generates an internal -5v CV that should be offset with a full +10v to pan full right.
huffnPuff
You need an attenuation offset module, or a bipolar LFO. The former is a great utility to have in any system.
pyjamarama
I found this on a quick search re. JF spec:

153 mA +12V
34 mA -12V
0 mA 5V
30 mm Depth
Ø 5.00 (3 Votes) Average Rating


do you use maths to modulate all four pans on your Mx-4S then?
pyjamarama
huffnPuff wrote:
You need an attenuation offset module, or a bipolar LFO. The former is a great utility to have in any system.


agreed! waiting for my ph-8 on both counts..... should be the one for this no?

am curious what you use to modulate all four pans on your 4s though.
pyjamarama
AND.. not to get too far off topic, whether the scan and pan would also require four bipolar lfo's to fully pan all four of it's channels.
huffnPuff
AFAIK Verbos do not have a bipolar LFO, so it might work otherwise. I find the MX-4S control scheme very logical though - the Eurorack specs for CV are 10v pp (be it bipolar or unipolar).
confusedmachine
Recently racked up mine, and have a few questions:

- the postcard manual states that unity gain is at 9 o'clock. This is about 2 if we were using a 1-10 scale. Things sound 'normal' at that level, then significantly overdrive at anything over that. There's a ridiculous amount of gain there if required, but it doesn't take much to overdrive it.

- A single signal sounds fine. Once you bring in and mix other signals, it tends to distort. It sounds to my ears as though two signals that are fine in isolation when mixed will overdrive and distort the mix.

Do others find it behaves like this too?
nectarios
I have a friend with whom we make techno every Friday and he added the Scan & Pan to his Verbos modules.

I think its the best sounding VCA I've ever had in my studio.
My DPO sounded so full through it, much better than the Optomix (ok its an LPG really).
The fact that its stereo out with panning made me decide its going to be my first Vebos module.

Scan & Pan plays so well with the HO, this drone came out in 10 minutes.
[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/287245640" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_use r=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]

Yes this overdrives very quickly so inputs need to be tamed. This module has HEAPS of gain and having said that, the overdrive is *brilliant*.
bernwerlin
One thing that annoys me about the S&P is the height of the Pan pots. It's super difficult to get in there with both inputs used in one of the channels and a cv source to control the vca...not to mention if you're using all 4 channels with chunky patch cables it's near impossible. So, in other words, functionally it's great. Ergonomically, it isnt. I can overlook that though!

sad banana
MindMachine
confusedmachine wrote:
Recently racked up mine, and have a few questions:

- the postcard manual states that unity gain is at 9 o'clock. This is about 2 if we were using a 1-10 scale. Things sound 'normal' at that level, then significantly overdrive at anything over that. There's a ridiculous amount of gain there if required, but it doesn't take much to overdrive it.

- A single signal sounds fine. Once you bring in and mix other signals, it tends to distort. It sounds to my ears as though two signals that are fine in isolation when mixed will overdrive and distort the mix.

Do others find it behaves like this too?


So you leave the inputs at 9 o clock (#2) just to stay clean and then you have to amplify after the S & P to get a stronger clean signal out of your system?
HowMuchYaBench
Bump on this question.

MindMachine wrote:
confusedmachine wrote:
Recently racked up mine, and have a few questions:

- the postcard manual states that unity gain is at 9 o'clock. This is about 2 if we were using a 1-10 scale. Things sound 'normal' at that level, then significantly overdrive at anything over that. There's a ridiculous amount of gain there if required, but it doesn't take much to overdrive it.

- A single signal sounds fine. Once you bring in and mix other signals, it tends to distort. It sounds to my ears as though two signals that are fine in isolation when mixed will overdrive and distort the mix.

Do others find it behaves like this too?


So you leave the inputs at 9 o clock (#2) just to stay clean and then you have to amplify after the S & P to get a stronger clean signal out of your system?
moegl
I am having some trouble with the VCAs. are the sliders not supposed to act like attenuators when CV is in the VCAs??? as you can see on this video the sliders are not very responsive, and even with the sliders set to 0 the VCA is still reacting. and when I try to wiggle the sliders you can only hear the reaction on the falling and rising part of the LFO.

Leverkusen
moegl wrote:
I am having some trouble with the VCAs. are the sliders not supposed to act like attenuators when CV is in the VCAs??? as you can see on this video the sliders are not very responsive, and even with the sliders set to 0 the VCA is still reacting. and when I try to wiggle the sliders you can only hear the reaction on the falling and rising part of the LFO.



The sliders seem to respond well on your movements in the video and I don't think they are meant to attenuate the incoming CV - looks as if both are added. At least that's what I would expect them to do. What CV are you feeding in? Bipolar or unipolar?
Triglav
moegl wrote:
I am having some trouble with the VCAs. are the sliders not supposed to act like attenuators when CV is in the VCAs??? as you can see on this video the sliders are not very responsive, and even with the sliders set to 0 the VCA is still reacting. and when I try to wiggle the sliders you can only hear the reaction on the falling and rising part of the LFO.


I think the sliders only act as an offset, not an attenuator for CV.
It would be great to know what's the expected range of the CV/pan inputs though.
moegl
Leverkusen wrote:
The sliders seem to respond well on your movements in the video and I don't think they are meant to attenuate the incoming CV - looks as if both are added. At least that's what I would expect them to do. What CV are you feeding in? Bipolar or unipolar?


Triglav wrote:
I think the sliders only act as an offset, not an attenuator for CV.


Thank you for your quick responses! smile

I just figured the sliders would act like the sliders of the mixer on the Music Easel. where they control the amount of CV to the VCA.

I don't understand the priority of offset over attenuation here? in a mixer with a vca, I would expect attenuation to be the best thing for mixing purposes.

I made a workaround in this video to illustrate how I expected it to behave. just panned input4 to the left and sent it to imput3, and slider no3 is now how I would have wanted the vca to behave.

Triglav
moegl wrote:
Leverkusen wrote:
The sliders seem to respond well on your movements in the video and I don't think they are meant to attenuate the incoming CV - looks as if both are added. At least that's what I would expect them to do. What CV are you feeding in? Bipolar or unipolar?


Triglav wrote:
I think the sliders only act as an offset, not an attenuator for CV.


Thank you for your quick responses! smile

I just figured the sliders would act like the sliders of the mixer on the Music Easel. where they control the amount of CV to the VCA.

I don't understand the priority of offset over attenuation here? in a mixer with a vca, I would expect attenuation to be the best thing for mixing purposes.

I made a workaround in this video to illustrate how I expected it to behave. just panned input4 to the left and sent it to imput3, and slider no3 is now how I would have wanted the vca to behave.


The Easel has a separate offset and CV slider for each LPG channel.
I think because the Scan & Pan is primarily a mixer and not a VCA, there is some value in this approach. You first set a volume for each channel and then modulate relative to that.
The Buchla 207 which this is vaguely based on doesn't even have CV over level. http://buchlatech.blogspot.com/2008/11/mixers-mixers-mixers.html
pugix
The sliders are offsets, summed into the CV for the channel. Each stereo channel has multiple sources of CV:

Slider (initial level)
Pan pot (initial location)
Level CV
Panning CV
Scanning CV

All of these sum together to impact the left and right outputs for that channel. The two LEDs indicate the level going out for left and right.

Be careful where the Scan pots are set! Both Width and Center should be fully to the left (anti-clockwise), when you're not scanning. Otherwise it will impart another offset.
xanderseren
confusedmachine wrote:

- A single signal sounds fine. Once you bring in and mix other signals, it tends to distort. It sounds to my ears as though two signals that are fine in isolation when mixed will overdrive and distort the mix.

Do others find it behaves like this too?


I'm experiencing this as well. I get significant distortion when feeding signals into all 4 channels even with the gain knobs set just slightly above 0. Also, it's tough to find the center point on the pan knobs and their range seems to be limited to 10 and 2 -- beyond that I just get the full signal in the left or right channel. I'm finding it a bit hard to tame, but I can't tell whether or not this is by design.
Worwell
xanderseren wrote:
confusedmachine wrote:

- A single signal sounds fine. Once you bring in and mix other signals, it tends to distort. It sounds to my ears as though two signals that are fine in isolation when mixed will overdrive and distort the mix.

Do others find it behaves like this too?


I'm experiencing this as well. I get significant distortion when feeding signals into all 4 channels even with the gain knobs set just slightly above 0. Also, it's tough to find the center point on the pan knobs and their range seems to be limited to 10 and 2 -- beyond that I just get the full signal in the left or right channel. I'm finding it a bit hard to tame, but I can't tell whether or not this is by design.


What do you mean by 0? Unity gain is at 9 o'clock.
xanderseren
Worwell wrote:
xanderseren wrote:
confusedmachine wrote:

- A single signal sounds fine. Once you bring in and mix other signals, it tends to distort. It sounds to my ears as though two signals that are fine in isolation when mixed will overdrive and distort the mix.

Do others find it behaves like this too?


I'm experiencing this as well. I get significant distortion when feeding signals into all 4 channels even with the gain knobs set just slightly above 0. Also, it's tough to find the center point on the pan knobs and their range seems to be limited to 10 and 2 -- beyond that I just get the full signal in the left or right channel. I'm finding it a bit hard to tame, but I can't tell whether or not this is by design.


What do you mean by 0? Unity gain is at 9 o'clock.


Oops, by 0 I meant 7 o'clock. I'm realizing it may be a matter of setting the sliders at about 50% and the gain between 8/9 o'clock. I'm getting a pretty clean signal this way and then just boosting the signal externally.
bodydouble
Just picked one of these up and experiencing the same distortion as talked about above.

What is the design rationale for it overdriving after 9 o'clock on the gain knobs? 7 to 9 o'clock gives you almost no ability to balance the levels before applying overdrive, VCA, pan etc : - /
luketeaford
bodydouble wrote:
What is the design rationale for it overdriving after 9 o'clock on the gain knobs? 7 to 9 o'clock gives you almost no ability to balance the levels before applying overdrive, VCA, pan etc : - /


I believe it IS the overdrive and it is before the vca (slider/cv) and pan.

This allows you to boost weaker signals up to modular level, but it's not really designed for mixing relative levels of the channels.

If you have one envelope you want to apply to varying degrees to each channel, you could do that by attenuating the gain channels or by using only L or R side and figuring out the panning/width or the most obvious approach would be attenuating the envelope externally.
tthogs
If you wanna have some real fun with the scan n pan, try putting some audio rate cv into the pan input, preferably with the same vco into that same channel. You get super wide stereo effects and it sounds really cool. If you then have a stereo filter afterwards that's new synthesis sounds right there.
narrowfella
[quote="Worwell"]
huffnPuff wrote:
pugix wrote:

1. Stability of channels in the stereo image regardless of changes in level settings. This was an issue with the 1st modules, and has been somewhat improved by changing some resistors.


1. Not an issue on new models and older ones can be fixed.


Hi everyone! How would one fix a Scan & Pan that does not maintain the stereo position whilst changing the level sliders/ cv-ing the level? I recently purchased one that malfunctions this way and whilst according to Paul from disappointing Verbos customer service that is normal behaviour, I am now looking for a repair option.

If anyone has fixed theirs and can share some tips I would highly appreciate. Thank you! we're not worthy
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