Minimoog Model D vs reissue

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vav
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Post by vav » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:21 am

mousegarden wrote:
vav wrote:So i got serial number #312 on August 26 of 2016. Today, i turned on the synth and it made a super weird sound when i hit some keys and fizzled out. Seems like VCO 1 died....and the warranty was only one year. So that's awesome.

I'll report back once it's diagnosed

:confused:
Vav, that's terrible, fingers crossed here :eek: Be interested to know what that's all about.
Also be interested to know how many have been returned for service?
Moog took care of the shipping back, dunno about diagnosis yet, it left to head back to Asheville today. I did ask if they'd seen any other units have this happen to and Adam did mention that he'd heard of one or two others...i think he said it was a bad transistor in one but i'm not 100% sure.
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Post by mousegarden » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:24 am

vav wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
vav wrote:So i got serial number #312 on August 26 of 2016. Today, i turned on the synth and it made a super weird sound when i hit some keys and fizzled out. Seems like VCO 1 died....and the warranty was only one year. So that's awesome.

I'll report back once it's diagnosed

:confused:
Vav, that's terrible, fingers crossed here :eek: Be interested to know what that's all about.
Also be interested to know how many have been returned for service?
Moog took care of the shipping back, dunno about diagnosis yet, it left to head back to Asheville today. I did ask if they'd seen any other units have this happen to and Adam did mention that he'd heard of one or two others...i think he said it was a bad transistor in one but i'm not 100% sure.
Transistor? Whats that!? :hihi:

Hope you get it back soon, with an explanation.

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Post by vav » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:53 pm

Heard back from Moog, it was a bad capacitor in the VCO core. They also fixed the lowest key, which has always felt a little tight, action-wise, by regluing the the pressure strip under the key...apparently it was a little bunched up down there.

They covered my shipping to and from, so i'm only out $90 bucks....which is mostly great, but this definitely colors my perception of how this synth will hold up for the rest of its life.
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Post by JayEm » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:23 pm

vav wrote:Heard back from Moog, it was a bad capacitor in the VCO core. They also fixed the lowest key, which has always felt a little tight, action-wise, by regluing the the pressure strip under the key...apparently it was a little bunched up down there.

They covered my shipping to and from, so i'm only out $90 bucks....which is mostly great, but this definitely colors my perception of how this synth will hold up for the rest of its life.
just think of this reissue as giving you the full experience of owning one of the originals :bananaguitar:
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Post by vav » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:26 pm

JayEm wrote:
vav wrote:Heard back from Moog, it was a bad capacitor in the VCO core. They also fixed the lowest key, which has always felt a little tight, action-wise, by regluing the the pressure strip under the key...apparently it was a little bunched up down there.

They covered my shipping to and from, so i'm only out $90 bucks....which is mostly great, but this definitely colors my perception of how this synth will hold up for the rest of its life.
just think of this reissue as giving you the full experience of owning one of the originals :bananaguitar:
"You too can go through the trials and tribulations of a 30 year old synth...today!" :hihi:
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Post by mousegarden » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:00 am

vav wrote:"You too can go through the trials and tribulations of a 30 year old synth...today!" :hihi:
Ha Ha! Yes, "the vintage experience" there's a whole new business opportunity there! :hihi:
I can't get used to that pitch bend wheel, I can't ever remember the original being so stiff and lumpy. Also, the amount of pitch bend is huge.
I'm still happy, but I'm hearing artefacts between oscillators, strange harmonic, beating effects, not sure if this is normal or not, basically, the whole feel of the instrument is a bit "weak" "peaky" it may be pilot error though.

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Post by mousegarden » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:44 pm

vav wrote:They also fixed the lowest key, which has always felt a little tight, action-wise, by regluing the the pressure strip under the key...apparently it was a little bunched up down there
Thats interesting, I've just noticed that my lowest key feels different from the rest, it's softer, there isn't a firm "bottoming out" like all the others, it feels like it's sinking into a mush. This is worrying, even though this thing is obviously well made, quallity control and inspection is obviously lacking, absolutely not on with a product of this pedigree.

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Post by vav » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:07 am

mousegarden wrote:
vav wrote:"You too can go through the trials and tribulations of a 30 year old synth...today!" :hihi:
Ha Ha! Yes, "the vintage experience" there's a whole new business opportunity there! :hihi:
I can't get used to that pitch bend wheel, I can't ever remember the original being so stiff and lumpy. Also, the amount of pitch bend is huge.
I'm still happy, but I'm hearing artefacts between oscillators, strange harmonic, beating effects, not sure if this is normal or not, basically, the whole feel of the instrument is a bit "weak" "peaky" it may be pilot error though.
dunno, next to this vco dying this synth is exactly what i've been searching for. It's so powerful and i can't seem to make it sound shitty. Every patch is amazing. no weirdness, no odd tuning/calibration, just set and play. it's awesome. but..
mousegarden wrote:
vav wrote:They also fixed the lowest key, which has always felt a little tight, action-wise, by regluing the the pressure strip under the key...apparently it was a little bunched up down there
Thats interesting, I've just noticed that my lowest key feels different from the rest, it's softer, there isn't a firm "bottoming out" like all the others, it feels like it's sinking into a mush. This is worrying, even though this thing is obviously well made, quallity control and inspection is obviously lacking, absolutely not on with a product of this pedigree.
..yeah. that squish, or resistance, is what i was feeling too. So i guess that's a common problem with the pressure strip.

Honestly i'm kinda bummed with Moog over this. I mean it's a dead capacitor in a synth less than a year and half old, i really don't think i should have to pay a cent....it was dodgy part. And yeah, shit happens, but part of the allure here is that i really own my first minimoog, with hearts in my eyes like a kid on christmas morning.

To have them go "Oh yeah, dead cap, $90 please." just kinda...i dunno, it made the magic disappear a little for me. It's not just another synth in my studio, but a little bit of that moog mystique is gone for me.

Maybe i'll get it back when the synth comes home and plug it back in, who knows. I mean it's just $90.

:despair: :deadbanana:
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Post by mousegarden » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:38 am

vav wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
vav wrote:"You too can go through the trials and tribulations of a 30 year old synth...today!" :hihi:
Ha Ha! Yes, "the vintage experience" there's a whole new business opportunity there! :hihi:
I can't get used to that pitch bend wheel, I can't ever remember the original being so stiff and lumpy. Also, the amount of pitch bend is huge.
I'm still happy, but I'm hearing artefacts between oscillators, strange harmonic, beating effects, not sure if this is normal or not, basically, the whole feel of the instrument is a bit "weak" "peaky" it may be pilot error though.
dunno, next to this vco dying this synth is exactly what i've been searching for. It's so powerful and i can't seem to make it sound shitty. Every patch is amazing. no weirdness, no odd tuning/calibration, just set and play. it's awesome. but..
mousegarden wrote:
vav wrote:They also fixed the lowest key, which has always felt a little tight, action-wise, by regluing the the pressure strip under the key...apparently it was a little bunched up down there
Thats interesting, I've just noticed that my lowest key feels different from the rest, it's softer, there isn't a firm "bottoming out" like all the others, it feels like it's sinking into a mush. This is worrying, even though this thing is obviously well made, quallity control and inspection is obviously lacking, absolutely not on with a product of this pedigree.
..yeah. that squish, or resistance, is what i was feeling too. So i guess that's a common problem with the pressure strip.

Honestly i'm kinda bummed with Moog over this. I mean it's a dead capacitor in a synth less than a year and half old, i really don't think i should have to pay a cent....it was dodgy part. And yeah, shit happens, but part of the allure here is that i really own my first minimoog, with hearts in my eyes like a kid on christmas morning.

To have them go "Oh yeah, dead cap, $90 please." just kinda...i dunno, it made the magic disappear a little for me. It's not just another synth in my studio, but a little bit of that moog mystique is gone for me.

Maybe i'll get it back when the synth comes home and plug it back in, who knows. I mean it's just $90.

:despair: :deadbanana:
I'm not concerned about that bottom key, I'm not shipping it back just because of that. Although I am going to call the dealer to make him aware of it. As long as anything else doesn't go wrong, that's the main thing. Are they using genuine old stock components in some areas? That could exaplin the quick failure rate. Seems a bit silly though.
Yes, mine is OK, you're right, I sat down last night with it and a few potentially finished tracks came out, it is almost impossible to make it sound bad, and even if it does sound bad it's in a good way! :hihi:

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Post by Synthbuilder » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:27 am

mousegarden wrote:I can't get used to that pitch bend wheel, I can't ever remember the original being so stiff and lumpy. Also, the amount of pitch bend is huge.
I can't say I was ever a fan of the original. I have modified some units over the years to give a much wider dead band in the middle and less range. Although for one chap, I increased the range and got rid of the mechanical notch in the middle. Horses for courses I guess.
I'm still happy, but I'm hearing artefacts between oscillators, strange harmonic, beating effects, not sure if this is normal or not, basically, the whole feel of the instrument is a bit "weak" "peaky" it may be pilot error though.
It could be that you're driving the filter a little hard. Sorry, if this is obvious, but if any of the oscillator levels are over 75% they tend to produce some obvious growling. This is a good thing sometimes of course.

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Post by Synthbuilder » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:32 am

mousegarden wrote:Thats interesting, I've just noticed that my lowest key feels different from the rest, it's softer, there isn't a firm "bottoming out" like all the others, it feels like it's sinking into a mush.
I think that is the pressure strip as Vav says. There's a bit of foam strip stuck onto the resistor sensor that is part of the aftertouch. It comes loose and once, on a DSI MEK, I saw it rucked up forming a slightly higher area. It can be pulled off and stuck down properly but it's not generally a job for the customer.

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Post by mousegarden » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:01 am

Synthbuilder wrote:
mousegarden wrote:Thats interesting, I've just noticed that my lowest key feels different from the rest, it's softer, there isn't a firm "bottoming out" like all the others, it feels like it's sinking into a mush.
I think that is the pressure strip as Vav says. There's a bit of foam strip stuck onto the resistor sensor that is part of the aftertouch. It comes loose and once, on a DSI MEK, I saw it rucked up forming a slightly higher area. It can be pulled off and stuck down properly but it's not generally a job for the customer.
The dealer has offered to take it back and get it sorted, I don't know what to do, it's a minor thing, and I don't want to be without the synth. But I suppose I should get it fixed, not sure?

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Post by umma gumma » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:56 pm

I would wait a while, the warranty is for a year? make sure everything else is stable and if it bothers you talk to them about it

my lowest key feels a bit different than the others, but it's not really an issue for me

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Post by mmp » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:00 pm

Moog offers a three year warranty extension for addition money.

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Post by Blairio » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:36 am

mmp wrote:Moog offers a three year warranty extension for addition money.
Interesting. So a hand made product, employing hand-picked components, assembled in (probably) ideal working conditions by a (one imagines) skilled workforce cannot be reasonably expected (on the balance of probabilities) to go for more than a year without developing issues.

These instruments will lead charmed, cosseted lives, for the most part not leaving the studio or home they were introduced into. The idea that the purchaser should have to pay out more for peace of mind beyond year one is absurd - a 'piss-take' in British parlance. It speaks volumes for Moog's quality control processes. In fact the issues with the keybed on their own should sound loud alarm bells in Asheville. These things should carry a 2 year warranty at least. I say 'things' advisedly, because at the and of the day they are just mono synths, albeit being punted for king's ransom.

Yes they sound good, but so do many other 3 VCO mono's with that model of filter and a mixer stage you can overdrive. The Roland SE-02 shows that you can get great sound and build quality for a (small) fraction of the series D price - with total recall and a sequencer thrown in.

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Post by mousegarden » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:34 am

Blairio wrote:
mmp wrote:Moog offers a three year warranty extension for addition money.
Interesting. So a hand made product, employing hand-picked components, assembled in (probably) ideal working conditions by a (one imagines) skilled workforce cannot be reasonably expected (on the balance of probabilities) to go for more than a year without developing issues.

These instruments will lead charmed, cosseted lives, for the most part not leaving the studio or home they were introduced into. The idea that the purchaser should have to pay out more for peace of mind beyond year one is absurd - a 'piss-take' in British parlance. It speaks volumes for Moog's quality control processes. In fact the issues with the keybed on their own should sound loud alarm bells in Asheville. These things should carry a 2 year warranty at least. I say 'things' advisedly, because at the and of the day they are just mono synths, albeit being punted for king's ransom.

Yes they sound good, but so do many other 3 VCO mono's with that model of filter and a mixer stage you can overdrive. The Roland SE-02 shows that you can get great sound and build quality for a (small) fraction of the series D price - with total recall and a sequencer thrown in.
I've got 3 years warranty with DV247, it comes automatically with no extra charge. They offered to give me a full refund, but they can't exchange it as they have no more left!
I wanted the Moog for what it is, but I'm beginning to think I'd have been better off hanging out for an original, it may have had zero problems, in the long run. I've got a supposedly more reliable version. Apart from the bottom key, a couple of the rocker switches are catching on the front of the case making them feel scratchy. All in all this is just not on for a product like this allegedly made with "great care and attention"
I bought it without the price being an issue, that's not what it's all about, and I will be gigging with it should the need arise, after all, it is an instrument to be used as it was originally intended to be, it's not a museum piece.

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Post by mmp » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:10 am

I think it is a bit unfair to suggest that because an extended warranty is available that the instruments are somehow less reliable or suspect. The fact is that for any given manufacturer there will be issues with some units. I really have seen no evidence that the new Minimoogs are shoddily made instruments. I own one and it seems very solidly made to me. I have no issue with you not liking Moog as a company, but this line of argument seems a bit of a stretch for a new line of Moog bashing.
Blairio wrote:
mmp wrote:Moog offers a three year warranty extension for addition money.
Interesting. So a hand made product, employing hand-picked components, assembled in (probably) ideal working conditions by a (one imagines) skilled workforce cannot be reasonably expected (on the balance of probabilities) to go for more than a year without developing issues.

These instruments will lead charmed, cosseted lives, for the most part not leaving the studio or home they were introduced into. The idea that the purchaser should have to pay out more for peace of mind beyond year one is absurd - a 'piss-take' in British parlance. It speaks volumes for Moog's quality control processes. In fact the issues with the keybed on their own should sound loud alarm bells in Asheville. These things should carry a 2 year warranty at least. I say 'things' advisedly, because at the and of the day they are just mono synths, albeit being punted for king's ransom.

Yes they sound good, but so do many other 3 VCO mono's with that model of filter and a mixer stage you can overdrive. The Roland SE-02 shows that you can get great sound and build quality for a (small) fraction of the series D price - with total recall and a sequencer thrown in.

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Post by revtor » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:55 am

A year should reasonably cover anything that Moog could control. Individual transistors or things like that going bad after a year come down to the manufacture of those actual parts. Although I agree, the keyboards should’ve been checked out perhaps a little better from the start, and $90 is steep for a warranty repair, a transistor going bad on a couple of units is just the way it is I imagine, and no way about it -shipping a mini is a pita.

Let’s not pretend either that the thousands of minis that went out in the 70s and 80s we’re all perfect. There were more bad parts decades ago. Maybe a longer or more stressful burn in procedure could have been implemented?

Manufactures of almost every product offer an extended warranty that’s business and manufacturing 101. Take it or leave it, a good option for some!

Any tech worth his salt should be able to troubleshoot and repair a mini and the parts are all fairly common so play that thing and love it for decades... Don’t let a 4 cent part sour the amazingness that the
Minimoog brings every time you turn it on!

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(37 year old Minimoog here, needs a lot more than one transistor. Still produces blissful pure electronic sound)

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Post by Blairio » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:07 pm

mmp wrote:I think it is a bit unfair to suggest that because an extended warranty is available that the instruments are somehow less reliable or suspect. The fact is that for any given manufacturer there will be issues with some units. I really have seen no evidence that the new Minimoogs are shoddily made instruments. I own one and it seems very solidly made to me. I have no issue with you not liking Moog as a company, but this line of argument seems a bit of a stretch for a new line of Moog bashing.
Blairio wrote:
mmp wrote:Moog offers a three year warranty extension for addition money.
Interesting. So a hand made product, employing hand-picked components, assembled in (probably) ideal working conditions by a (one imagines) skilled workforce cannot be reasonably expected (on the balance of probabilities) to go for more than a year without developing issues.

These instruments will lead charmed, cosseted lives, for the most part not leaving the studio or home they were introduced into. The idea that the purchaser should have to pay out more for peace of mind beyond year one is absurd - a 'piss-take' in British parlance. It speaks volumes for Moog's quality control processes. In fact the issues with the keybed on their own should sound loud alarm bells in Asheville. These things should carry a 2 year warranty at least. I say 'things' advisedly, because at the and of the day they are just mono synths, albeit being punted for king's ransom.

Yes they sound good, but so do many other 3 VCO mono's with that model of filter and a mixer stage you can overdrive. The Roland SE-02 shows that you can get great sound and build quality for a (small) fraction of the series D price - with total recall and a sequencer thrown in.
Actually I'm not particularly Moog bashing. I have had a few over the years (all 2nd hand) starting with a lates series D I bought in '87 for £400 - not £3400. I like moogs well enough. What I am driving at is that consumers are entitled to expect a higher standard of quality and quality control from a 'premium' product commanding a premium price tag - be it a synth or a car or a cat-flap. A manufacturer's heightened confidence in their product should be expressed through the warranty they offer. I think a year's warranty is very conservative for a top dollar product *from any maker* - that's all. The MTBF (mean time before failure) of any component employed should exceed by orders of magnitude the use the synth (or car or catflap) is going to get in a year.

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Post by mousegarden » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:07 am

I'm taking my Mini back to to the dealer, two more keys have gone spongy, the pitch wheel is more than annoying, it's unusable for that function in my opinion. I can't remember my original Mini being "that" stiff.
I'm a bit apprehensive about sending it back though, it's knocked my confidence as I'm worried something else may go wrong, but what am I going to replace it with? I need a good mono-synth with a nice rich sound, alternatives? The Korg Odyssey FS, it will have Korg build quality and reliability, but the sound isn't a Mini Moog. The only other two things I can think of that may fit the bill are the Matrix Brute, or, on a different tack, the new Prophet Rev2.
I know this key thing can be fixed, but for the money I payed it doesn't feel right anymore, if it was a Behringer for very little money you make considerations, but not with this new Moog. An original may have a few little things wrong, but it's to be expected, all in all I am dissapointed, I'd rather just get something else.

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Post by revtor » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:08 am

Vermona 14 maybe? Not a mini that’s for sure, but is definitely a great monosynth. Dominion? That’s another beast of a mono.

How about a vintage mini?

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Post by Blairio » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:32 am

Try a Roland SE-02, partnered with a decent controller keyboard like a Roland A500 Pro (and no, I am not a Roland Rep). Together they will come to roughly £750.

Blair edit - check the SE-02's specification and architecture. It is very close to the series D, as you would expect from Studio Electronics' involvement.

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Post by thispoison » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:36 am

Don't do it Mouse.

I'd guess things probably went wrong with a few of the original Minimoogs soon after delivery, when they were still the price of a good new car?

We should expect that now if original designs have been adhered to?

Looking at maybe buying a 1948 AJS Model 18c soon myself. Ground up restoration by a great man using a lot of rare and expensive NOS parts - don't expect it will prove too reliable in years to come, but hey, I don't want a modern reliable commuter - it's not really the point?
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Post by misterbunty » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:01 pm

I've been following this thread with an interested caution.

My Minimoog is a beautiful piece of engineering, but I've been a bit put-off by the stiff pitch wheel, as a few others have been. Folks have been saying that this was standard for minis of this vintage, but I'm not entirely charmed by that. Still, I'm willing to live with it.

What does worry me is that my lowest key is also very spongy. I wasn't thinking this was a big deal until I saw a few others, here, with the issue.

Are folks returning it? I got mine on a payment plan from Zzounds. Would dread having to ship it.

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Post by umma gumma » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:47 pm

someone on the Moog forum posted a fix for the stiff pitch wheel: I think there is a nut you can replace with a thinner one, which is what makes contact at the center point & affects the "catch" resistance

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