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noob voltage scaling question
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Video Synthesis  
Author noob voltage scaling question

lionelfischer

is there a recommended rectifier module that works well in a video system akin to 'maths' or something? i was thinking that i should have some voltage scaler modules, but for bipolar signals, or perhaps just any signal, a particular rectifier/attenuator module might be great in a video system and i'm just a noob and don't know? theres a bunch that all look great, but maybe one is more suited for video stuff than the others, or maybe i'm overthinking, still getting started with all this stuff..


monads

For LZX, take a look at the "Cadet V Scaler" module.


lionelfischer

monads wrote:
For LZX, take a look at the "Cadet V Scaler" module.


ordered a 1 to 5 just now.

still want to get a couple offset/rectifier things that would work well in a video system, or am i thinking about this the wrong way? lack of responses here makes me think i'm incorrect in going about this.

does the 4ms SISM pass video decent enough?


monads

lionelfischer wrote:
ordered a 1 to 5 just now.


As a start I would've guessed you'd order the 5v to 1v to interface the voltage range of your audio modules with the LZX 1v standards? Audio modules will work without a 'scaler' per say but ranges beyond the 1v are ignored for LZX. That's why you'd want the scaler. The 1v to 5v is for taking LZX signals and bringing them to interface with your audio modules/ranges.


lionelfischer

monads wrote:
lionelfischer wrote:
ordered a 1 to 5 just now.


As a start I would've guessed you'd order the 5v to 1v to interface the voltage range of your audio modules with the LZX 1v standards? Audio modules will work without a 'scaler' per say but ranges beyond the 1v are ignored for LZX. That's why you'd want the scaler. The 1v to 5v is for taking LZX signals and bringing them to interface with your audio modules/ranges.


im not using a TV though, im going into my scope and mixing the vid signals with my audio oscs etc, so i figured 1 to 5 would get all my stuff matching. is this logic of mine correct? i only have cadet sync, ramps, and video input module. the rest is non LZX audio modules


nerdware

Can the Scaler handle video-rate signals? I didn't think it did, but I may be mistaken.


monads

Well, I can't offer solutions if your'e using a scope only because that's not what I do hihi

I use a CRT Monitor/TV to view signal processing. The only scope I have at my fingertips is a O'Tool+. I use the LZX scaler (5v to 1v) to bring audio modules into the LZX format range. To add to the confusion, you don't need a scaler if you're interfacing audio modules with a Ming Mecca or Dave Jones MVIP.


monads

nerdware wrote:
Can the Scaler handle video-rate signals? I didn't think it did, but I may be mistaken.


Does it matter if going from 1v to 5v??? Now I'm confused by this....


nerdware

It depends on what kind of signal you're sending and where you're sending it to. E.g. a Luma signal to the Z input on an oscilloscope for displaying video will require a video bandwidth amp. OTOH, I've had fun results sending such signals thru an audio module like the RYO AmpMix, using it like a video FSU module. However, I mostly use the AmpMix for attenuating 5V signals before going into a video module. E.g. the outputs from my 2 Sloth modules. I should really get a passive attenuator module for that job, but I like mixing other stuff in too. I use a SISM for the tougher jobs.

So many options. love


lionelfischer

nerdware wrote:
Can the Scaler handle video-rate signals? I didn't think it did, but I may be mistaken.


its made by LZX and designed to help interface video and audio signals so... pretty sure it does!


nerdware

I don't mean you can't feed video signals into it. Of course you can, but can you get video signals out of it? Does it have enough bandwidth to pass video signals without excessive distortion? I don't know. I can only look at the datasheet for the LM6172, which is the op-amp used in the Cadet Processor module, and note that the bandwidth for this chip is rather higher than the TL072, which is used in the Scaler.

[EDIT] The datasheets I linked to are for the SMT versions. My understanding is that the Cadet series use the thru-hole versions. So I'm assuming the bandwidth specs are the same, but I could be wrong. d'oh!

Nevermind. This is simple to test.


lionelfischer

so is the scaler cool for passing luma signal or not?


nerdware

If you're passing it to an audio or control module, I expect it'll work just fine. You'll lose part of the signal anyway. Sending video thru non-video modules is a great way to FSU. However, if you want to, say, filter a video signal and get something video-like back, then you'll need a video-rate filter. LZX has such a module but it's currently out of production.

These two videos may help make my point better.






lionelfischer

i understand that, but the earlier chatter here about components used made it seem like the scaler doesnt pass the entire luma signal through, which seems odd to me as i thought that was the purpose of the module.


nerdware

It won't pass the higher frequencies. So it'll function a bit like a lowpass filter. You may find that useful, I don't know. However, if you're passing the video signal from the Scaler to a module like the Borg, you'll get similar bandwidth-limiting effects anyway. So I guess it won't matter. That's why I posted the Johnny Woods Borg video. He was actually using a Doepfer A-119 module to boost the signal! Also note his comment about the high signal from the Borg being too hot for the VBM, and needing to attenuating it to avoid "whiting out".

I strongly recoomend watching both videos with this in mind. The video filter module can produce much more subtle effects. A non-video module like the Borg will be full on video FSU. The Scaler used on its own will be somewhere between these two extremes. How much that'll matter will depend on what you expect to get. E.g. you can send the clock signals from the VC to, say, the sync input on a VCO. The Scaler will help with that, as it'll handle the clock signals just fine. The fastest of those clocks is only in the kilohertz range, well below megahertz.



[EDIT] Above is another great Johnny Woods video. In this one, some way in, he shows how you can sync audio oscillators to your video synth. I'm not sure if he boosted the clock signals - I'll need to watch it again, carefully, to remind myself how he did that - but the Scaler could be used for that very effectively.

[EDIT2] Oh yes, he used a Unity mixer to boost the signals. I've also used a Unity for boosting, but not for syncing a VCO. (The Intellijel Or module is also fun for mixing video BTW, altho you get some signal loss because its a passive module.)


lionelfischer

thanks so much for these posts..

am i overthinking this or thinking about it the wrong way?

my original idea was that since i'm only using a scope and not a TV, and i'm (at this point anyway..) strictly doing simple rutt etra using a pair of mixers and thats it. my scope doesnt have scaling controls, so i need to amplify the signal to euro levels to get it to fill the entire screen (tektronix 608). this is why i thought using a scaler to make the video luma 5V would be a good idea, so when i mix the luma into the ramp signals its at the same voltage range as the ramps which i'm amplifying with a Levit8 module. i'm also amplifying the video luma signal with the levit8 module too, but my understanding was that the levit8 couldnt pass the entire video luma signal and i'd get better images/results if i was using something that scaled the voltage in a cleaner way.

im currently using a intellijel planar, a manhattan .mix, a doepfer bipolar mixer, and the levit8, all sort of look different, the intellijel planar seems to have the cleanest results, but maybe all of them are not that clear compared to a proper video mixer module. i have one brownshoesonly mixer module in the mail.

so thats my specific situation right now. is the real solution for me to get a different scope that can be fed 1V signals and fill the entire scope screen without having to amplify it in the modular? shoudl i be doing that instead of using a voltage scaler? i'm just looking for what would give me the cleanest results using the gear i currently have. but also, moving forward, should i change my approach? i think i'll get another scope in the future cuz the 608 although beautiful has a very slow fade time, it would be nice to have a quicker fade time for less trails. i'm just wondering what my signal levels should be like if i'm ending up on a scope and not a TV, and mainly doing rutt etra stuff.

am i overthinking this, and losing a chunk of the luma signal is totally fine and quite common when doing rutt etra stuff, or is there a whole world i'm missing out on by using this workflow?


nerdware

I recommend getting a Passage module and using that to amp the Luma (as I described in another thread, here).

[EDIT] d'oh! d'oh! d'oh! d'oh! d'oh!


lionelfischer

wow and i read that whole thing when you first posted it.

i cant find any information on the pathways module? is it a discontinued LZX product?

the way you described using it seemed like kind of a waste of what that module allows you to do with it though right? is there really no other simple clean solution for getting Z up to 5V-8V etc..?


nerdware

Oops, that should be Passage. d'oh! d'oh! d'oh!


lionelfischer

nerdware wrote:
Oops, that should be Passage. d'oh! d'oh! d'oh!


ahhh.

do you think i'm going about this the wrong way though? should i just be using a scope that can be fed 1V signals and scale them to fit the screen using the scopes controls? or is this a normal thing i'm slowly figuring out that everyone already does with their systems? or do most people have several passage modules etc and just do whatever they want, scaling at any point in the chain, because they have the right scope and the right modules and plenty of them to go around etc?

i just cant tell if i'm lacking some key pieces of gear and so i'm scrambling to make it work, or if this is a legit problem that doesnt have an elegant solution or something yet. is there a "right" way to be doing this? or should i just pick up a few passages and then be totally set to do whatever i need to do in any possible order without it being the "wrong" way ?


nerdware

I don't know of any scopes that use 1V for the Z mod. There may be some but I wouldn't waste any time or money looking for one. There used to be a page for future scope output module called something like 'Driver' on the old LZX site. So its possible that module, or something like it, might appear in the not-too-distant future. If so, it would be worth waiting for. You could ask Lars about it, anyway.


lionelfischer

nerdware wrote:
I don't know of any scopes that use 1V for the Z mod. There may be some but I wouldn't waste any time or money looking for one. There used to be a page for future scope output module called something like 'Driver' on the old LZX site. So its possible that module, or something like it, might appear in the not-too-distant future. If so, it would be worth waiting for. You could ask Lars about it, anyway.


oh shit i forgot, my other scopes with scaling controls just have it for x and y, no z controls at all. so i guess the move is for me to pick up a passage or two huh? seems like a great idea anway, as those passage moduels are so useful. thanks for helping me wrap my head around this. i still feel like i'm blind and walking around feeling the walls, not sure if my whole approach is the correct way to think about it, but i'm getting there

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