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µTune - Micro Tonal midi cv converter, quantizer, editor
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Modular Synth General Discussion Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 10, 11, 12, 13  Next [all]
Author µTune - Micro Tonal midi cv converter, quantizer, editor
sizone
I think the idea is that you apply the offset to the scala file. that is, you have tuning1.scl then you make tuning2.scl consisting of every ratio in tuning 1 *1200*log2 + offest. you would still need a second utune to load the second tuning to as I don't see any way to assign different tunings to the separate cv outs.

looking over that, that also seems like a really cumbersome (and expensive) way to do something fairly simple.
tubbutec
Hi,
did not quite get what you were trying to do.

An offset per channel sounds like a good idea, I will put it on the TODO list.

It is currently not possible to load different scales for each channel, but that also will be implemented soon.

In the meantime I guess you could maybe use the tuner:

Set channel 1 to some frequency (say 100 Hz) via pitch knob on the VCO.
Set channel 2 to desired higher frequency (say 251Hz) using the vco pitch knob.

You can now send the same cv into both µTune inputs and will get the correct ratio.
timoka
tubbutec wrote:

An offset per channel sounds like a good idea, I will put it on the TODO list.

It is currently not possible to load different scales for each channel, but that also will be implemented soon.


an offset per channel would be really nice!
Phil999
hmm, that made me thinking ... for what purpose could different tunings per channel be used?

sizone wrote:
I think the idea is that you apply the offset to the scala file. that is, you have tuning1.scl then you make tuning2.scl consisting of every ratio in tuning 1 *1200*log2 + offest.

could you expand this thought? I also don't have a clue what you are hoping to achieve with this.

One possible application I can imagine could be the following: tuning1 for the main FM'd oscillator, and tuning2 that is related or derived from tuning1 for the modulating FM oscillator, in order to not only have fundamental microtonal temperament, but also specific overtones or harmonic content. That would be pretty far out if it worked. However I have my doubts.

But is it this kind of advanced stuff you guys are after? I would love to hear why you demand for different tunings and offsets per channel. The idea behind, the musical context.
tubbutec
Tony Dubshot shows his µTune and some early impressions on the Noodlefest in Rotterdam. He also shows quite a lot of different scales:

Phil999
aw, that is quite a disencouraging video.

You know, one has to spend some time with these scales. Especially if one has no deep background in music theory. Like, I dare to say, most of modular synthesiser users. Including myself.

I spent about 5 years with only few (about 3-5) microtonal 12-tone scales because I wanted to keep the traditional keyboard layout for convenience. Each scale has its own mood and character that has to be learned in a musical context (for example you cannot simply transpose a melody x semitones higher, like in 12-edo, the music can fall apart quickly when you do so). Then I experimented with 19-tone just intonation for about a year, using a Lemur template with hexagonal keyboard layout. What always kept me interested was the natural overtone series and scales from traditional music. Because with these you can't go wrong as long as you don't transpose randomly. I don't like transposition (modulation) of melodies very much anyway, it appears a bit cheap to me (yes, also J.S.Bach and much classic music).

Remember: you can run some random voltage into uTune and scan through the preset scales and remember those that sound nice (or weird of you prefer), but you'll hardly have a chance to understand and know what you're doing. If you want to use a microtonal scale and want to have control over tonality, you have to compose for that specific scale and root. Or find something per happy accident, but stick to the root note, or modulate with care.

This video only shows what the module can do in an uninspired and uneducated way. I don't do videos myself, but for the first time I feel the need to make one just to show some of the beautiful, magical side of xenharmonics. I'll try to get something simple together in the coming weeks.
tubbutec
Phil999 wrote:


Remember: you can run some random voltage into uTune and scan through the preset scales and remember those that sound nice (or weird of you prefer), but you'll hardly have a chance to understand and know what you're doing. If you want to use a microtonal scale and want to have control over tonality, you have to compose for that specific scale and root. Or find something per happy accident, but stick to the root note, or modulate with care.

This video only shows what the module can do in an uninspired and uneducated way. I don't do videos myself, but for the first time I feel the need to make one just to show some of the beautiful, magical side of xenharmonics. I'll try to get something simple together in the coming weeks.


Hi Phil,
I agree. Just playing random notes will not fully reflect the character of any scale. This is even true for 12TET and of course also for any other scale.
However please bear in mind that Tony just wanted to quickly show what µTune can do. When this video was filmed back in September, µTune had just been released and Tony was the first customer (#003). He did not really have time to prepare anything for this demonstration, even the user manual was in a very early state.
I am very thankful that he did nevertheless take some time to demo the module and showed a bit what it can do.

It would of course be absolutely amazing to see a video of you showing some scales and tunings. Very much looking forward to this!!
sizone
Phil999 wrote:
hmm, that made me thinking ... for what purpose could different tunings per channel be used?

sizone wrote:
I think the idea is that you apply the offset to the scala file. that is, you have tuning1.scl then you make tuning2.scl consisting of every ratio in tuning 1 *1200*log2 + offest.

could you expand this thought? I also don't have a clue what you are hoping to achieve with this.

One possible application I can imagine could be the following: tuning1 for the main FM'd oscillator, and tuning2 that is related or derived from tuning1 for the modulating FM oscillator, in order to not only have fundamental microtonal temperament, but also specific overtones or harmonic content. That would be pretty far out if it worked. However I have my doubts.


I was going to suggest that read the two posts prior to mine, but you figured it out for yourself.

as far as "advanced stuff", you aren't going to be able to come up with any novel applications for a feature that isn't implemented.

the obvious application for being able to have two concurrent tunings is that you're still limited to a midi note range of 128. if you're working in a tuning that has, say 43 tones it's nice to be able to split it into subsets so that you can have instruments with more than a 3 octave range.

so little has been done in terms of microtonal architecture for synthesizers that the empirical test of whether a feature is useless, neat or necessary for a tuner to have has yet to be performed.
Knights Who Say Neve
tubbutec wrote:
Hi,
did not quite get what you were trying to do.

An offset per channel sounds like a good idea, I will put it on the TODO list.

It is currently not possible to load different scales for each channel, but that also will be implemented soon.

In the meantime I guess you could maybe use the tuner:

Set channel 1 to some frequency (say 100 Hz) via pitch knob on the VCO.
Set channel 2 to desired higher frequency (say 251Hz) using the vco pitch knob.

You can now send the same cv into both µTune inputs and will get the correct ratio.


Thank you. And of course tuning the VCO's will work, but it would be easier to tune the vcos in unison and then apply a precise (digitally controlled) offset from the module, then to retune the VCOs. If a particular ratio set sounds good with a tuning, then scales could be saved with the offset applied, as sizone suggested.

Applying a different scale to a carrier and a modulator will be an interesting experiment when that ability is added.
Phil999
great infos from you all. I have a feeling 2018 will be a year of precious advancements in this area.

Subsets of larger octave divisions is an important path to go I think. For example, the subsets can be broken down to the 12-key layout we have on our keyboards, to make playing and sequencing easier.
Knights Who Say Neve
Phil999 wrote:
great infos from you all. I have a feeling 2018 will be a year of precious advancements in this area.

Subsets of larger octave divisions is an important path to go I think. For example, the subsets can be broken down to the 12-key layout we have on our keyboards, to make playing and sequencing easier.


I will gently suggest, that perhaps a standard keyboard is not the best tool for exploring alternate tunings?

Personally, I think the blank canvas approach of something like a Monome Grid would be a better fit for the microtonal space. (Granted, it's not velocity or pressure sensitive and therefore fairly unsuitable for virtuoso playing, but I'm no virtuoso).
sizone
Knights Who Say Neve wrote:


I will gently suggest, that perhaps a standard keyboard is not the best tool for exploring alternate tunings?

Personally, I think the blank canvas approach of something like a Monome Grid would be a better fit for the microtonal space. (Granted, it's not velocity or pressure sensitive and therefore fairly unsuitable for virtuoso playing, but I'm no virtuoso).


I would second that. Touchosc or Lemur on an ipad is also a pretty good way to go, but then you lose out on any kind of tactile feel in addition to velocity and a.t..

https://ridlabs.wordpress.com/2016/07/03/tablet-remappable-midi-keyboa rd-interface/?iframe=true&theme_preview=true

if there were just a little more flexibility in how the linnsturment could be set up, it would be pretty fantastic.

there's also something to be said for picking a tuning then hacking up a keyboard to make it match as elaine walker does for bohlen-pierce.
Knights Who Say Neve
As a bass player what I'd really like is a CV/Gate pickup that is accurate with fretless and lacks noticeable lag, but AFAIK there is no such animal.
kindredlost
Knights Who Say Neve wrote:
I will gently suggest, that perhaps a standard keyboard is not the best tool for exploring alternate tunings?

Personally, I think the blank canvas approach of something like a Monome Grid would be a better fit for the microtonal space. (Granted, it's not velocity or pressure sensitive and therefore fairly unsuitable for virtuoso playing, but I'm no virtuoso).


Totally agree except I'd STRONGLY encourage it. Even then, I still haven't done so myself. I think it's due to only working in alternate tunings periodically. Not something I do all the time.

It's a PITA to map out 33 note scales on the typical keyboard but I don't own any other kind for whatever unknown reason/excuse. I've been at this for a decade or so but still haven't become serious enough to invest in one. Pretty lame. zombie

I guess if you constrain your efforts to something with 12 notes then things are halfway workable, but probably less compelling or interesting and tend to be more musically/socially accessible. As an example...

tubbutec
kindredlost wrote:




Very impressive, thank you for posting this !
strangeowl
Any updated details about the expander release? :*

Just ordered the unit at schneider's btw. Looking forward to it, but I do really want the 4ch operation smile
kindredlost
I am having too much fun with this module.

A couple more to share. The first is a pentatonic Javanese scale and the second is a 9tET study. The first is a single live take and the second is multi-tracked.

Thanks again for the wonderful module Tobi!



[s]https://soundcloud.com/david-ryle/clockspring[/s]
11ish
nice pieces, thanks for posting! thumbs up
kindredlost
11ish wrote:
nice pieces, thanks for posting! thumbs up


My pleasure. I'm having a blast with the module. Opens new realms that were harder to get to otherwise. Looking forward to the expander. For me the key is the use of polyphony.
Knights Who Say Neve
In scale edit, would it be possible to set the pitch of a note by reading the voltage at a cv input?

I make ad-hoc scales by ear on a Meng Qi Voltage Memory. If I could plug the output of that into the utune and have it read the voltages, the ad-hoc scales could be saved for later use.
tubbutec
Knights Who Say Neve wrote:
In scale edit, would it be possible to set the pitch of a note by reading the voltage at a cv input?

I make ad-hoc scales by ear on a Meng Qi Voltage Memory. If I could plug the output of that into the utune and have it read the voltages, the ad-hoc scales could be saved for later use.


Hi,
we will add a function that lets you select the note to edit based on the cv input.
The feature you are describing is not possible hoever, because the CV in resolution is not high enough.
tonymasiello
Hi David,

There pieces are really good. I enjoyed listening to both. You have quite an impressive rig! At the very end of the video, you showed your monitor running what looked like some type of microtonal editing software. Could you share what that software is?

Thanks!

kindredlost wrote:
A couple more to share. The first is a pentatonic Javanese scale and the second is a 9tET study. The first is a single live take and the second is multi-tracked.
Knights Who Say Neve
tubbutec wrote:
Knights Who Say Neve wrote:
In scale edit, would it be possible to set the pitch of a note by reading the voltage at a cv input?

I make ad-hoc scales by ear on a Meng Qi Voltage Memory. If I could plug the output of that into the utune and have it read the voltages, the ad-hoc scales could be saved for later use.


Hi,
we will add a function that lets you select the note to edit based on the cv input.
The feature you are describing is not possible hoever, because the CV in resolution is not high enough.


Fair enough, and thank you for the quick and unambiguous reply. Would it be possible to toggle the display in scale edit to show the output voltage instead of cents? Then at least I could measure a voltage externally and then enter it into the scale manually. The voltage could be in hex format if there isn't enough room for decimal.
tubbutec
Knights Who Say Neve wrote:
tubbutec wrote:
Knights Who Say Neve wrote:
In scale edit, would it be possible to set the pitch of a note by reading the voltage at a cv input?

I make ad-hoc scales by ear on a Meng Qi Voltage Memory. If I could plug the output of that into the utune and have it read the voltages, the ad-hoc scales could be saved for later use.


Hi,
we will add a function that lets you select the note to edit based on the cv input.
The feature you are describing is not possible hoever, because the CV in resolution is not high enough.


Fair enough, and thank you for the quick and unambiguous reply. Would it be possible to toggle the display in scale edit to show the output voltage instead of cents? Then at least I could measure a voltage externally and then enter it into the scale manually. The voltage could be in hex format if there isn't enough room for decimal.


I don't quite like the idea of displaying voltage in the scale editor, because the two units are not exactly interchangeable:
Usually (1V/Oct) you can calculate voltage from cents via this simple formula:

Voltage = Cents / 1200
or
Cents = Voltage*1200

This is not quite true for the cents displayed in the editor, because:
- Repeating intervals (octave) may be added
- VCO calibration changing the voltage
- transpose
- pitch bend

You can use the above formula if you don't apply any of these of course.

I would like to suggest another approach to your workflow however: Don't create the scales by ear on the Meng Qi Voltage Memory, but rather use the scale editor. Any changes made there will be instantly passed to the output. So you can edit note by note just by listening and will have your scale ready to be saved at the end.
Knights Who Say Neve
tubbutec wrote:
Knights Who Say Neve wrote:
tubbutec wrote:
Knights Who Say Neve wrote:
In scale edit, would it be possible to set the pitch of a note by reading the voltage at a cv input?

I make ad-hoc scales by ear on a Meng Qi Voltage Memory. If I could plug the output of that into the utune and have it read the voltages, the ad-hoc scales could be saved for later use.


Hi,
we will add a function that lets you select the note to edit based on the cv input.
The feature you are describing is not possible hoever, because the CV in resolution is not high enough.


Fair enough, and thank you for the quick and unambiguous reply. Would it be possible to toggle the display in scale edit to show the output voltage instead of cents? Then at least I could measure a voltage externally and then enter it into the scale manually. The voltage could be in hex format if there isn't enough room for decimal.


I don't quite like the idea of displaying voltage in the scale editor, because the two units are not exactly interchangeable:
Usually (1V/Oct) you can calculate voltage from cents via this simple formula:

Voltage = Cents / 1200
or
Cents = Voltage*1200

This is not quite true for the cents displayed in the editor, because:
- Repeating intervals (octave) may be added
- VCO calibration changing the voltage
- transpose
- pitch bend

You can use the above formula if you don't apply any of these of course.

I would like to suggest another approach to your workflow however: Don't create the scales by ear on the Meng Qi Voltage Memory, but rather use the scale editor. Any changes made there will be instantly passed to the output. So you can edit note by note just by listening and will have your scale ready to be saved at the end.


The Meng Qi doesn't have a quantized 12TET output though. The voltage outputs are unquantized. So I can make a scale in the utune, but I won't know where to adjust the knobs to on the Meng Qi to be able to trigger the right intervals. Although I suppose I could adjust the Meng Qi knobs and keep re-triggering until I find the scale steps i want....but I won't know what steps in the utune that I'm triggering, which makes it difficult to edit. The feature add you mentioned earlier of selecting a step to edit via the CV input would help a great deal with this.
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