Just Friends: 1 - Metropolis: 0, a word of WARNING

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Nofrenchtests
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Post by Nofrenchtests » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:41 am

ghrobbing_tristle wrote:
No one has gone on a crusade, and if anything the badmouthing has been against modules without protection.
You're right - I should have clarified. This was mainly stuff I heard in person at MiM, not anything I explicitly read here on the forum.

Whimsical Raps/Mannequins is a pretty polarizing brand, admittedly. But just as there are people who slag them off for being flowery/obtuse, there are also plenty of 'fanboys' to 'step in' on their behalf. This poster of this thread expressed hesitation (and so did I) about posting mostly because of the latter.

I'm sure this borders on nervous breakdown territory, especially with how vehement this community has been towards their ideas/products, but I really hope that WR comes to the table and we can work on solving this problem with them, rather than trying to rub their nose in it.

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ghrobbing_tristle
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Post by ghrobbing_tristle » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:08 am

Well put, Nofrenchtests -- definitely hoping for the same outcome.

peripatitis

Post by peripatitis » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:22 am

I don't think there is a polemic against them..
but i've never heard anyone say they are making bad products and such.
They just add an 'artistic language' layer into their product description-understanding that indeed does get a little bit flamed.

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Trebbers
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Post by Trebbers » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:47 am

At the moment, I'd say the most important thing for WR to get this info out to their users and new buyers. I don't fault them for the issue with JF, but going forward they need to try to prevent anybody else from getting burnt.

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The Illuminaire
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Post by The Illuminaire » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:44 am

Issues akin to this, but less lethal, are a part of the reason I've moved towards a mostly single-manufacturer system. Cuts down on GAS, headaches, and cumbersome compatibility issues.

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yghartsyrt
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Post by yghartsyrt » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:24 pm

Leverkusen wrote:
Krater wrote:I´m aware of this Maths-"issue" and the threads about it, but as far as I know, no module XY was damaged in this context.
Yes, that was my thought too - everyone has a Maths and I've never heard of something gone wrong besides function oddities. Anyway I am still a little concerned so...
yghartsyrt wrote:
You are right. I assumed the just friends was set up like a lot of functions generators. But as folks pointed out, it seems that the Run In might be normalled to the -12v rail. THAT is something entirely different.
...can someone enlighten us dummies and drain the source of uncertainty? WHAT is something entirely different?
If I understood it correctly (no guarantee – and if i'm wrong, somebody please correct. Don't want to spread fals information about WR):
  • 1. The end of cylce/end of rise on the maths is normalled to the trigger input: That is the reason, why there might be a pulse signal present at the trigger input. the amount of current will most likely not harm any module.
    2. The run input seems to have a normalization directly to the -12 V rail.In that case the current it can send is more or less whatever the power supply can provide.
Again no guarantee for being correct.

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amnesia
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Post by amnesia » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:58 pm

I just saw this info so FIRST I recommend getting direct info from WR as I am just copy pasting this info from Non Linear circuits.........just cut the trace leading to the switching tab and then solder in a 1k resistor between the tab and -12V.

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Post by autopoiesis » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:10 pm

yghartsyrt wrote: If I understood it correctly (no guarantee – and if i'm wrong, somebody please correct. Don't want to spread fals information about WR):
  • 1. The end of cylce/end of rise on the maths is normalled to the trigger input: That is the reason, why there might be a pulse signal present at the trigger input. the amount of current will most likely not harm any module.
Please refer to the discussion on Maths and Function one page back. The pulse is present on the Signal Input / Integrate Input, when it is either (a) cycling or (b) triggered via the Trigger Input. The Trigger Input does not send out this 10V pulse.

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Leverkusen
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Post by Leverkusen » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:50 pm

amnesia wrote:I just saw this info so FIRST I recommend getting direct info from WR as I am just copy pasting this info from Non Linear circuits.........just cut the trace leading to the switching tab and then solder in a 1k resistor between the tab and -12V.


Good to know that there seems to be a solution for this and since it is a relatively new module it seems to be an easy warranty fix for those who cannot do it themselves. Hopefully it is not too much of a strain for whimsical to handle and we get some lovely polysynth tunes to listen to soon with the new firmware. :tu:

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Leverkusen
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Post by Leverkusen » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:57 pm

autopoiesis wrote:
yghartsyrt wrote: If I understood it correctly (no guarantee – and if i'm wrong, somebody please correct. Don't want to spread fals information about WR):
  • 1. The end of cylce/end of rise on the maths is normalled to the trigger input: That is the reason, why there might be a pulse signal present at the trigger input. the amount of current will most likely not harm any module.
Please refer to the discussion on Maths and Function one page back. The pulse is present on the Signal Input / Integrate Input, when it is either (a) cycling or (b) triggered via the Trigger Input. The Trigger Input does not send out this 10V pulse.
Doing the Maths again, what actually kept my anxious attention was the good Doktor Strangelove mentioning that it actually is quite a bit of current in combination with Maths always starting with "CYCLE" turned on on power on. But it still seems to be a lot less dangerous, is it?
wsy wrote: Not quite the "trigger" input - it's on the "integrate in" input, and only when you have "CYCLE" turned on.
Hasn't caused a problem yet, but yeah, it kinda gives one pause and a bit of concern.

It's fairly potent- around 10 volts, and seems to have quite a bit of current sourcing (i.e. it's not just through a 100K resistor,
knocking down the current to a 0.01 mA or so. It's more than enough to override what a Rene can put out on it's clock outputs.

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intellijel
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Post by intellijel » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:09 pm

I concur that the only safe option is to plug cables into the RUN input first (to break the normal) and then connect to your source. It will be quite safe this way.

Obviously it is concerning that the -12V jolt is damaging some of the Metropolis outputs and we are waiting to receive few damaged modules so we can further diagnose why.

From what I gather the Just Friends modules can't be easily modified since the normalling is happening via the jack pin and an inner layer of the 4-layer pcb. You could possibly desolder the jack, cut/bend the normal pin and insulate it from the terminal it would have soldered into and then add a resistor.

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Post by jimmie » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:04 pm

Nofrenchtests wrote:There are plenty of other threads about the Maths problem.
I read the thread and actually, the conclusion was there had been no report of damaging a module by the Maths according to Make noise (one exceptional case tho). Like Tony says we can accidentally patch an output to output on occasion. This makes me think that unprotected modules are minority here indeed? Or the case of Just Friends is actually not the same? I mean can Maths break Metropolis then?

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Post by funqpatrol » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:51 pm

intellijel wrote: Obviously it is concerning that the -12V jolt is damaging some of the Metropolis outputs and we are waiting to receive few damaged modules so we can further diagnose why
.

Thanks guys, mine is on its way, hope you can figure this out!

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nearly ghost
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Post by nearly ghost » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:03 am

intellijel wrote:From what I gather the Just Friends modules can't be easily modified since the normalling is happening via the jack pin and an inner layer of the 4-layer pcb. You could possibly desolder the jack, cut/bend the normal pin and insulate it from the terminal it would have soldered into and then add a resistor.
Damn.. So it seems pretty unlikely a firmware fix is possible then. There no way i could do this mod, i've never soldered a thing in my life.

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Leverkusen
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Post by Leverkusen » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:25 am

On the other side, and maybe I overread something, does this only but cumulative affect the Metropolis?

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Post by melodydad » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:31 am

Leverkusen wrote: On the other side, and maybe I overread something, does this only but cumulative affect the Metropolis?
Doesn't look like it from this:
onthelees wrote: OK, so I think this is how my QCD and Grids got fried, since they were both patched into the Run input of my Just Friends but I didn't make the connection until now.
I consider myself fortunate as I have yet to figure out what the Run input does - I plugged a cable into it with nothing attached (as suggested in the manual) and I couldn't ascertain what effect this was having - or what it supposed to achieve, so never bothered with this input since (and this module offers so much anyway that I am still exploring).
. . . we better let him in . . . . . he's got a Theremin . . . (HMHB: 'Look Dad No Tunes')

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Post by ghrobbing_tristle » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:32 am

Leverkusen - My Verbos Random Sampling was affected as well. So far I think it's just that and Metropolis?

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Post by exper » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:29 am

ghrobbing_tristle wrote:Leverkusen - My Verbos Random Sampling was affected as well. So far I think it's just that and Metropolis?
couple more mentioned above:

Grids

QCD
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ghrobbing_tristle
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Post by ghrobbing_tristle » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:54 am

I consider myself fortunate as I have yet to figure out what the Run input does - I plugged a cable into it with nothing attached (as suggested in the manual) and I couldn't ascertain what effect this was having - or what it supposed to achieve, so never bothered with this input since (and this module offers so much anyway that I am still exploring).
When you're ready (and confident), The RUN jack and its modes are capable of truly wonderful stuff. Keep in mind that the RUN jack doesn't need external modulation in order to enter a mode -- most of them exhibit interesting behavior at 0V (i.e. with just a jack plugged in). See the main Just Friends thread mdoudoroff's terrific video series on this subject.

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Post by whimsical » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:23 pm

Apologies for not getting to this sooner. Please see our response below.

http://www.whimsicalraps.com/pages/run- ... of-warning

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Post by tebs213 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:31 pm

whimsical wrote:Apologies for not getting to this sooner. Please see our response below.

http://www.whimsicalraps.com/pages/run- ... of-warning
That's an extremely reasonable and thoughtful response.

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Post by funqpatrol » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:49 pm

tebs213 wrote:
whimsical wrote:Apologies for not getting to this sooner. Please see our response below.

http://www.whimsicalraps.com/pages/run- ... of-warning
That's an extremely reasonable and thoughtful response.

Yes thank you, it sucks being the guinea pig though.

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Timmy
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Post by Timmy » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:28 pm

Hmmm, after reading the Whimsical response to this issue, if there is in fact no current-limiting resistor between the -12V power rail and the normalling connection on the RUN jack, then it is pretty clearly a design mistake in JF and a more straightforward mea culpa from Whimsical might have been better, rather than blaming a lack of standards.

To re-quote what Olivier Gillet said about this issue in another thread:
pichenettes wrote:I think the designer(s) of the JF wanted to normalize the "Run" input to -12V so that it was set to a known, easily detectable voltage when nothing is patched in the jack (detecting unpatched jacks is tricky indeed).

The issue of doing it by connecting the "switch" of the jack straight to -12V is that there is a temporary short to -12V during the insertion of the jack, which can cause the module on the other end to send an excess of current, and exceed the current drive capability of an op-amp or GPIO. A more sensible choice would have been to insert a small resistor (2 or 3k is low enough) between the -12V rail and the "switch", so that, in the event of a short during insertion, only (12 - -12) / 2k = 10mA of current is at most sourced or sinked on either sides. In normal operation, this would cause only a small voltage drop (100/102 x -12 = -11.7V).

I made a similar mistake early in the genesis of Tides, though I found it before the module went in production.
Most module manufacturers will design the outputs of their modules to be safe against shorts to ground, but expecting them to make all their outputs safe against connection directly to one of the power rails, which seems to be the case with JF, is a bit much and a very unsafe assumption.

Here's part of the Tides schematic for an input which has normalling to one of the power rails. Notice the 2.49k resistor (R60) between the power rail and the normalling connection on the jack socket. That's what seems to have been omitted from JF, although we can't be certain because no schematics are available for it.

Image[/img]
Last edited by Timmy on Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dogma » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:44 pm

Timmy wrote:Hmmm, if there is no current-limiting resistor between the -12V power rail and the normalling connection on the RUN jack, then it is pretty clearly a design mistake in JF and a more straightforward mea culpa might have been better, rather than blaming the lack of standards.

To re-quote what Olivier Gillet said about this issue in another thread:
pichenettes wrote:I think the designer(s) of the JF wanted to normalize the "Run" input to -12V so that it was set to a known, easily detectable voltage when nothing is patched in the jack (detecting unpatched jacks is tricky indeed).

The issue of doing it by connecting the "switch" of the jack straight to -12V is that there is a temporary short to -12V during the insertion of the jack, which can cause the module on the other end to send an excess of current, and exceed the current drive capability of an op-amp or GPIO. A more sensible choice would have been to insert a small resistor (2 or 3k is low enough) between the -12V rail and the "switch", so that, in the event of a short during insertion, only (12 - -12) / 2k = 10mA of current is at most sourced or sinked on either sides. In normal operation, this would cause only a small voltage drop (100/102 x -12 = -11.7V).

I made a similar mistake early in the genesis of Tides, though I found it before the module went in production.
Most module manufacturers will design the outputs of their modules to be safe against shorts to ground, but expecting them to make all their outputs safe against connection directly to one of the power rails, which seems to be the case with JF, is a bit much and a very unsafe assumption.

Here's part of the Tides schematic for an input which has normalling to one of the power rails. Notice the 2.49k resistor (R60) between the power rail and the normalling connection on the jack socket. That's what seems to have been omitted from JF, although we can't be certain because no schematics are available for it.

Image[/img][/quote
Edit - ok so you have read it. kudos for whimsical being totally upfront and giving background, a fix of sorts.
There are modules such as the and outs that do this and some others to - no standards...
The workaround is a dummy cable - not really massive deal, although I'm sure it was to those affected so I don't mean to piss in anyone's pocket
Last edited by Dogma on Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by funqpatrol » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:06 pm

Dogma wrote: The workaround is a dummy cable - not really massive deal, although I'm sure it was to those affected so I don't mean to piss in anyone's pocket
It`s a réal bummer that a "A circuit-board modification is not possible." though, It's uncomfortable knowing that you have a time bomb in your rig and this workaround is certainly no guaranty against frying several hundred dollars (yes I confirm this is a big deal ).
Last edited by funqpatrol on Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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