Why are all FH-1 triggers outputting as flams?

Discussion and support for Expert Sleepers' Silent Way software and hardware.

Moderators: Kent, os

User avatar
fourhexagons
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:07 pm
Contact:

Why are all FH-1 triggers outputting as flams?

Post by fourhexagons » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:26 pm

Hey Os,

I started working with the triggers on my FH-1 / FHX-1 and they're all outputting flams. That is, instead of a single event, there are two events very close to one another.

The simplest way to hear this is to monitor the sound of one of the outputs (attenuated).

Here is a clip:

https://soundcloud.com/lightbath/fh-1-t ... am/s-uDwAS

Any idea what is causing this?

The steps I took to create this example:

1. Ableton Live MIDI note sent to Ch 16, which I have mapped to output 8 on FHX-1

Image

2. Trigger channels configured as per this thread

Image

3. Going MIDI out from interface into a MIDI>USB cable, into FH-1.

Attached is a .zip of my script and .hex image.

Thanks again for all the help, Os.
Attachments
flam-01.zip
(1.69 KiB) Not downloaded yet

User avatar
os
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 13688
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:55 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by os » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:43 am

What do you get if you use a Gate instead of a Trigger on those same tracks?

User avatar
fourhexagons
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:07 pm
Contact:

Post by fourhexagons » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:03 am

As always, thanks, Os.

When I switch to gates, I get a click on the note on and a click on the note off. If I lengthen the notes being output, it's obvious that the clicks are happening at the note on and note off. So that explains what's happening with the triggers, both the note on and note off is being output.

https://soundcloud.com/lightbath/fh-1-gate-flam/s-C4D8X

It's configured like this (used the gates column instead of the triggers column):

Image

Is the solution to tell the FH-1 to ignore note-offs for triggers, or is something else going on?
Attachments
flam-02.zip
(1.69 KiB) Downloaded 1 time

User avatar
os
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 13688
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:55 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by os » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:01 pm

Most likely whatever you're triggering is responding to the falling edge of the gate, for some reason.

How do you have the FH-1 jumpers configured? If the default (±10v), try 0-5V or 0-10V instead.

User avatar
fourhexagons
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:07 pm
Contact:

Post by fourhexagons » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:38 pm

The jumpers were all in factory position (down) making the outputs +/- 10V. I tried changing the jumpers both to jumper up (0-10V) and no jumper (0-5V) and I'm getting the same double-hit flam behavior on all three jumper settings regardless of whether its outputting gates or triggers.

This is both when I monitor the output directly (listening to the output as audio) and when I use the output to trigger a Function that is shaping a Veils VCA channel.

User avatar
os
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 13688
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:55 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by os » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:03 pm

Listening to the output as audio will always sound like a click at gate on & off.

There seems to be something about Maths/Function that means it loves to double trigger. This comes up all the time. Do you have an attenuator? I wonder how it would behave with an attenuated 0-5V trigger.

User avatar
fourhexagons
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:07 pm
Contact:

Post by fourhexagons » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:57 pm

Strangely enough, running a 0-5V trigger through a channel of Shades with no attenuation fixes it—and that's the knob at full (no attenuation). Same goes for the ±10V signal, works the same.

Would that mean that there's something else going on (electrically speaking) that might be able to be tweaked in the FH-1 so that it plays nicely with Maths/Function? You know, it's just not ideal to dedicate an attenuator for the job.

Thanks again, Os.
:bananaguitar:

User avatar
os
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 13688
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:55 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by os » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:30 am

How odd. Perhaps we should ask MakeNoise.

This might sound crazy but have you tried a really really long patch cable between the FH-1 and Function?

User avatar
auxren
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 570
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:05 pm
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Post by auxren » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:49 am

I have the same issue with my Function.

User avatar
fourhexagons
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:07 pm
Contact:

Post by fourhexagons » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:58 pm

Odd, indeed.

A 6 ft cable made no difference, but I was able to alleviate it by plugging in and out of one of the channels of an Intellijel OR (which is used less often than my atten/offset modules).

I had thought that maybe it had something to do with the pulse width of the trigger, that perhaps Function/Maths works best with very short triggers and that what the FH-1 produces might be too long.

Os, what is the ms measurement of the trigger pulse the FH-1 uses? I can use that info (and any other pertinent info you might have) to reach out to Devin at Make Noise to see if we can figure it out.

And auxren, thanks for chiming in. The more heads, the merrier.

User avatar
os
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 13688
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:55 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by os » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:12 pm

The behaviour with gates indicates that there would be a problem at any trigger length - the Function is clearly triggering on a negative edge in some situations.

Unless of course that's its documented function? I don't know, I've never used one.

User avatar
fourhexagons
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:07 pm
Contact:

Post by fourhexagons » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:22 pm

I figured it out. Function retriggers when the voltage drops to -5V. It requires a 0-5V signal to work properly.

I had the FHX-1 at default jumper settings and when I had previously tested the jumpers on the FH's, I had only been listening to them (not realizing that listening to the output as audio will always sound like a click at gate on & off). In other words, because I didn't know it would make a difference, I hadn't even tested the 0-5V jumper setting with Function.

So my personal solution is to remove the jumpers from any FH-1/FHX-1 channels that are dedicated to triggers/gates. That's easy for me since I'm using FH-1/FHX-1 in a fixed way. I'm not using the default approach to having the outputs change as different information comes in. I'm essentially hard-wiring each output to a particular MIDI channel and note/cc.

For what it's worth, before solving the puzzle I had compared gates/triggers from various sources being fed into Function. I understand that if I owned a multimeter, I could just measure these modules.

• Gates from FH-1 (with ±10V jumper) – retrigger on negative edge
• Gates from FH-1 (with 0-10V jumper) – literally just sounds like a click
• Gates from FH-1 (with 0-5V jumper) – no retrigger
• Gates from Yarns – no retrigger
• Gates from Disting mk3 (Bank 1-c, Preset 3-b Clockable Gate) – no retrigger
• Square LFO from Batumi – no retrigger
• R-Pulse out of Ultra Random Analog – no retrigger
• Trigger from Tempi – no retrigger
• Square or exponential attack of LFO from Just Friends – no retrigger*

*If the attack is too slow, it won't trigger at all. That is, when adjusting the CURVE parameter on Just Friends in cycle mode.

Presumably, all the other modules are in the 0-5V (or possibly 0-8V range).

Os, thanks for your patience in keeping this thread going long enough for the solution to emerge.

:guinness:

User avatar
os
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 13688
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:55 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by os » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:40 am

:party:

User avatar
fourhexagons
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:07 pm
Contact:

Post by fourhexagons » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:12 pm

I guess I partied too soon. :doh:

Today the 0-5V output is causing the flams. I swear it was not doing that last night. I'm going to give this one time and see what remains consistent before reporting back. I'm not in a rush on this one since I can still just fix it by running through the OR before into Function.

User avatar
macs4music
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:35 am
Location: London

Post by macs4music » Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:02 pm

I'm having the same issue, running from the FH-1 into either Maths or Function. I ran the FH-1 gate out into my O'tool and rather than 0-5v it produces a slight negative voltage when the key is released. As with the solution above, if you run this via an attenuator with offset it stops. The question I have is how do you adjust the FH-1 output voltage for gates so that it is exactly 0 volts at key off?

Neil
Started with an Atari 1040STe, at least the timing was good....

User avatar
os
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 13688
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:55 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by os » Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:33 pm

There's no adjustment for that currently - I'll note that as a to-do.

You could try a different output on the FH-1 - there could be slight differences.

User avatar
macs4music
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:35 am
Location: London

Post by macs4music » Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:42 pm

I tried running from both channel 9 and 10 and both sets of gate outs have the same issue. Also for what it's worth, when I use channel pressure, releasing slightly then stops the gate output. Not sure if this is related?

Neil
Started with an Atari 1040STe, at least the timing was good....

morrison23usa
Common Wiggler
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 8:50 pm
Location: LA

Post by morrison23usa » Sun May 21, 2017 5:36 am

Thought I'd add since I just discovered this issue ... in my case it's an FH-1 into the gate IN on the MakeNoise 0-Coast.

Same behavior as noted previously - I get a double attack on the 0-Coast. If I observe the gate out on a scope (Mordax Data) it looks like the gate out on the FH-1 is putting out -4V at rest. Activating the gate seems to send +6V.

So - I guess as noted previously ... it seems the MakeNoise stuff reacts to falling edge ... but seems like only if it goes negative? I used a QuNexus as a test controller ... when running straight CV from the QuNexus the 0-Coast is fine ... if I put the QuNexus (or any other controller) through the FH-1 I see the problem appear.

I'm able to work around it by running the gate through an offset, adding 4V. With the offset inserted before the MakeNoise stuff it works perfectly.

User avatar
os
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 13688
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:55 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by os » Sun May 21, 2017 10:15 am

It seems that these MakeNoise units have a general problem in the design of their gate inputs.

Have you tried changing the FH-1 jumper so the output is 0-5V?

morrison23usa
Common Wiggler
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 8:50 pm
Location: LA

Post by morrison23usa » Tue May 23, 2017 10:00 pm

os wrote:Have you tried changing the FH-1 jumper so the output is 0-5V?
BRILLIANT! I didn't put two and two together ... yes ... that seems to have done the trick.

I removed the jumper from channel 2 and left it on channel 1. With Ableton Push2 connected to the USB port I got 1V/octave out of channel 1 and positive only gates on channel 2.

I'm still seeing the occasional odd trigger on note OFF ... which is weird to me ... but probably on the MakeNoise side of things as you've noted.

User avatar
beatworms
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:41 am

Post by beatworms » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:30 pm

Hey guys, just discovered this thread as i have the same issue with my maths. Did anyone discover a way to manipulate the FH1 to work properly with maths? changing the jumpers doesn't fix the problem but yes the attenuator is a good work around.

User avatar
macs4music
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:35 am
Location: London

Post by macs4music » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:31 am

As far as I can tell, what is needed is for the FH1 to put out 0 volts at rest. I did ask if this was possible a while back but it might have been forgotten.

Neil
Started with an Atari 1040STe, at least the timing was good....

User avatar
beatworms
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:41 am

Post by beatworms » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:51 am

Yes I see that it was on the "to do list". Lets hope that it's close to the top!

goldie
1-Post Wiggler
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:38 pm

Post by goldie » Wed May 09, 2018 5:00 pm

This is definitely an issue I've experienced when triggering Make Noise modules from ES hardware.

I've spoken with Make Noise technical regarding the issue and they suggested buffering gate signals, which works as some have discovered. E.g. patching a gate through the 0-Coast's maths section, or a buffered mult. It's not an ideal solution, but relatively painless.

When generating gate signals from Silent Way Voice Controller (through hardware such as the ES-3), the issue can be solved by reducing the "Gate On" value to at least 0.6 (default is 1).

User avatar
ipnoteca
cane morto
Posts: 572
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:01 am
Location: tokyo

Post by ipnoteca » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:25 am

goldie wrote:When generating gate signals from Silent Way Voice Controller (through hardware such as the ES-3), the issue can be solved by reducing the "Gate On" value to at least 0.6 (default is 1).
isn't there a way to reduce the gate on value of the FH-1 witout the use of the silent way software???
i've blown a fuse...

previously robocoder

YOUTUBE http://www.youtube.com/user/ipnoteca
INSTAGRAM http://www.instagram.com/ipnoteca/

Post Reply

Return to “Expert Sleepers”