phasing ala Steve

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propertyof
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phasing ala Steve

Post by propertyof » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:31 pm

i'm big fan of Steve Reich and been listening to his early records again recently.
makes me wonder, i want to recreate something like his phase patterns minimalism. i'm sure it's possible in eurorack, but not sure which modules & what kind of modules needed for the process.
i found out a couple of module could do an instant Reich like the Orthogonal Devices ER-101. but i still have vague ideas how to translate it & recreate it in usual system. i'm really curious.
so basically you'll need a sequencer? or two? do we need a specific sequencer?
clock it slightly different?
which combination of module that would be perfect here?
need your enlightenment here please..

thank you.

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Post by poppinger » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:22 am

propertyof wrote:so basically you'll need a sequencer? or two? do we need a specific sequencer?
clock it slightly different?
which combination of module that would be perfect here?
need your enlightenment here please..

thank you.
One way to do it would be have two sequencers, two voices (osc/vca/vcf etc) and two clock sources like a square wave LFO with sync.

Set both sequencers to the same notes. Connect your two voices to the two sequencers. Set your clock LFOs to nearly the same frequency but one very slightly lower than the other. To start the piece you would send a reset trigger to both sequencers and the sync on both LFOs.

The result would be the two sequencers playing the same notes, but slowly slipping out of time with respect to each other. The closer in frequency the clocking LFOs are to each other, the longer it will take for the two sequences to slip out of time.

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Post by propertyof » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:50 am

that's it! thank you for your kind explanation to this unworthy newb. :hail:
poppinger wrote: ...and two clock sources like a square wave LFO with sync.
which clock modules that have sync function?
can i do it with both channel 1 & 4 of Maths?

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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:25 am

There is an ADDAC clock module which is designed with the idea of phasing in mind. You should look it up.
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Post by anarchy4bits » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:07 am

i did some nice phasing experiments with mutable instruments edges internal sequencers. i clocked it with two dixies.

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Post by grimley » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:12 am

Teletype. See third post from bottom here:

viewtopic.php?t=139302&postdays=0&posto ... &start=125

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Post by propertyof » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:15 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:There is an ADDAC clock module which is designed with the idea of phasing in mind. You should look it up.
you mean the ADDAC403? yeah, but i think they have not release it yet (will they?).
been more than a year i guess since they announced it, but still no clue about it, except only in their website.

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Post by propertyof » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:26 am

grimley wrote:Teletype. See third post from bottom here:

viewtopic.php?t=139302&postdays=0&posto ... &start=125
interesting. will do more research on teletype.

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Post by poppinger » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:40 am

propertyof wrote:which clock modules that have sync function?
can i do it with both channel 1 & 4 of Maths?
I don't have Maths but you could probably do it with one. Cycling mode, EOC outs to sequencer clock inputs. Sync trigger into whatever restarts the Maths cycle. Tough part would probably be setting the attack/decay/lin-exp knobs to similiar enough settings. Doepfer A-147 would also do it. Eowave Zone BF would be a cheap dual LFO with reset inputs as well.

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Post by timoka » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:06 am

with the er-101 you can do that:

http://soundcloud.com/uzala/fm-phase

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Post by propertyof » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:07 am

i'll try it later. thanks.

actually how many dual, triple or quad sequencer available out there?
i like the ER 101 but seems it's less intuitive, not really suit for live improvisation, compared to something like Rene.

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Post by brandonlogic » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:24 am

any two clock sources/lfos and any two sequencers is all you need.
i did this with the pams workout as one clock source and disting's lfo as another. separated them by about 1bpm. q bit octone and turing machine are the sequencers.

[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/257873631" params="color=ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false" width="100%" height="166" iframe="true" /]

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Post by sempervirent » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:23 am

To make a shameless plug, the new alternate firmare for Algorhythm will do 8x 8-step channels of trigger sequencing (or 4x16, or 2x32) with arbitrary sequence lengths for each pattern.

Doing polyrhythms ala Reich was one of the main motivations for the update (hence the name "Polyrhythm" for this version of the code) and I'm looking forward to doing some demos that show this type of usage.

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Post by propertyof » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:35 am

thanks for sharing the soundcloud links guys, these are inspiring.

sempervirent
looks interesting! yes please, please do it, looking forward to see it. i'm in the middle of deciding to grab a sequencer which still has performative elements, but if possible having that kind of function is such a bonus for sure.

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Post by GuyaGuy » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:36 am

[video][/video]

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Post by propertyof » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:46 am

GuyaGuy
yeah as i mentioned before at the first post, i saw that. that's why i asked about the method & asking for alternatives.

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Post by rozzbud » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:37 am

kilpatrick carbon

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Post by nebula 80 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:16 am

It should be quite easy to do it with ornament & crime in CopierMaschine, MetaQ or Sequins modes.

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Post by jarcorbo » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:58 am

Just Friends can do this times 6 :deadbanana:

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Post by BillyB909 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:40 pm

I've just tried this with Maths and got pretty close.

Using a multed gate trigger both cycles at once (actually I use the gate from the LP1 Lightplane and keep it on); set fall time on both channels at zero (this makes EOR and EOC the same), set rise at 12 o'clock for both, the log/exponential knob as similar as possible, then adjust a setting that makes one envelop slightly longer than the other.

Then you get two sets of gates that start at the same time but slow drift apart.

What was mentioned earlier in this thread is true, it's not easy to get the right settings so they drift apart (and then back together) at a Reich like speed.

There's talk of changing the sequence lengths above as a solution. I might be wrong, but I think the phased effect is due to slightly different tempos as opposed to different sequence lengths but the same tempo.

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Post by akrylik » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:05 am

BillyB909 wrote:(snip)

There's talk of changing the sequence lengths above as a solution. I might be wrong, but I think the phased effect is due to slightly different tempos as opposed to different sequence lengths but the same tempo.
The difference is negligible if your sequence length can be controlled with a fine enough granularity. For example, in the ER-101 piano phase video, both sequences are played at the same tempo but one of the sequences is shorter by one clock pulse. Specifically, one sequence is (12 notes)*(32 ppqn) = 384 clock pulses long and the other is 383 clock pulses long.

I believe that a human performance also tends to use the "shorten one or two notes" approach rather than trying to have two tempos.

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Post by propertyof » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:37 am

akrylik wrote:
BillyB909 wrote:(snip)

There's talk of changing the sequence lengths above as a solution. I might be wrong, but I think the phased effect is due to slightly different tempos as opposed to different sequence lengths but the same tempo.
The difference is negligible if your sequence length can be controlled with a fine enough granularity. For example, in the ER-101 piano phase video, both sequences are played at the same tempo but one of the sequences is shorter by one clock pulse. Specifically, one sequence is (12 notes)*(32 ppqn) = 384 clock pulses long and the other is 383 clock pulses long.

I believe that a human performance also tends to use the "shorten one or two notes" approach rather than trying to have two tempos.
well according to...
wikipedia wrote:"Phasing is a compositional technique in which the same part (a repetitive phrase) is played on two musical instruments, in steady but not identical tempi. Thus, the two instruments gradually shift out of unison, creating first a slight echo as one instrument plays a little behind the other, then a doubling with each note heard twice, then a complex ringing effect, and eventually coming back through doubling and echo into unison."
so, i think by shorten the notes, it automatically will create a slightly different tempo.

.
oh looks interesting! i'm in the middle of searching for a clock module. stuck between RCD or the new Pam, but this will be in my option list too now.

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Post by BillyB909 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:03 pm

Fair enough, wasn't aware you could adjust sequence length by clock pulse on ER101. I was already trying hard not to buy one...

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Post by Dstone » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:24 pm

Could the trigger riot do this?

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