my Q179++ Problems or not? and yours!

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fabodyssey
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my Q179++ Problems or not? and yours!

Post by fabodyssey » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:27 pm

Hello :help:

I need your help because I find a problem on my Q179 ++
When the envelope is short with a little RELEASE, There is a unpleasant noise at the end of the sound
The noise is like an echo just at the end to its fall, a little metallic and in the treble.

My configuration is made with many different modules, maybe an incompatibility?
I tried with my sequencer GRP R24 and also the CP9 COTK Midi, same!
I have other Envelope mos-lab, Oakley and there is no residual noise with same patch

I contacted Synthesizers.com but for them it does not find any problem
Then listen and tell me if I'm crazy or if there is a problem
We hear well in headphones especially at 30 seconds from "1_with EG Q179.mp3"

If someone can do the same classic patch on his Q179 ++ to see if it's the same, it will help me too.

I put the picture of my modular with patch

https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/1 ... 79/s-dybTH
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/1-with-eg-q179/s-dybTH
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/2 ... os-lab-911
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/2-with-eg-mos-lab-911
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/3 ... akley-adsr
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/3-with-eg-oakley-adsr

Image
____________________________________________________________

New elements: (Thanks Microlab)
Listen directly to the output of the envelope with Patch of the envelope output directly to the audio mixer
We hear directly the unpleasant noise on the Q179.
The click is clearly in the high frequencies
The other envelopes do not make their parasitic noise appear

Now we would have to compare it with another Q179 ++ 8-)

Q179++: Direct recording at the output of the envelope
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/4 ... eg/s-NuPvp
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/4-q179-direct-output-eg/s-NuPvp

Mos-lab: Direct recording at the output of the envelope
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/5 ... eg/s-8OY1l
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/5-mos-lab-direct-output-eg/s-8OY1l

Oakley: Direct recording at the output of the envelope
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/6 ... eg/s-rfi46
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/6-oakley-direct-eg/s-rfi46
Last edited by fabodyssey on Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
(Beforehand sorry for my bad English)

see my modular soon finished ...
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/259422
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/361429

ualslosar
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Post by ualslosar » Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:17 pm

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but amps can be a bit noisey & clicky with a short envelopes. Could that be what you are hearing?

STG Digital Attenuators does a good job of eliminating these clicks & such.

Larry

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Dave Peck
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Post by Dave Peck » Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:36 pm

At first listen, I too thought the OP might just be referring to transient clicks due to extremely short envelope settings. But later in the recording, I can clearly hear what the OP is describing - It's a mid-high frequency metallic tone, like a ring modulator or audio side bands created by a bit-crusher effect, and it stays at the same pitch even though the audio osc is changing notes.

It could be caused by things like high frequency junk that might be generated by the envelope getting onto the DC power rails and 'infecting' the audio path (modulating the audio osc or the filter, or leaking into the audio path of the filter), or perhaps it is high frequency junk mixed in with the actual control output signal of the envelope, which would impart that signal onto whatever the envelope is modulating. It's definitely creating some sort of audio junk that should not be audible.

Maybe try different patch settings to really make it as obvious as possible, like long envelopes, with a high filter cutoff frequency but use a low-mid frequency sine or triangle wave as the filter input signal. This might maximize the amount of this high frequency junk sound getting through the filter and being clearly audible, while using a lower pitched sine or triangle audio input to the filter would avoid adding lots of high harmonics from the audio source and covering up the undesired tone.

Something like this, to make the undesired tone as obvious as possible, might help figure out what's causing it.

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fabodyssey
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Post by fabodyssey » Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:51 pm

ualslosar wrote:Perhaps I'm mistaken, but amps can be a bit noisey & clicky with a short envelopes. Could that be what you are hearing?

STG Digital Attenuators does a good job of eliminating these clicks & such.

Larry
No, it is not the click at the beginning of attack that gets me but after
I retain the idea of the STG thanks!
(Beforehand sorry for my bad English)

see my modular soon finished ...
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/259422
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/361429

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fabodyssey
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Post by fabodyssey » Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:53 pm

Dave Peck wrote:At first listen, I too thought the OP might just be referring to transient clicks due to extremely short envelope settings. But later in the recording, I can clearly hear what the OP is describing - It's a mid-high frequency metallic tone, like a ring modulator or audio side bands created by a bit-crusher effect, and it stays at the same pitch even though the audio osc is changing notes.

It could be caused by things like high frequency junk that might be generated by the envelope getting onto the DC power rails and 'infecting' the audio path (modulating the audio osc or the filter, or leaking into the audio path of the filter), or perhaps it is high frequency junk mixed in with the actual control output signal of the envelope, which would impart that signal onto whatever the envelope is modulating. It's definitely creating some sort of audio junk that should not be audible.

Maybe try different patch settings to really make it as obvious as possible, like long envelopes, with a high filter cutoff frequency but use a low-mid frequency sine or triangle wave as the filter input signal. This might maximize the amount of this high frequency junk sound getting through the filter and being clearly audible, while using a lower pitched sine or triangle audio input to the filter would avoid adding lots of high harmonics from the audio source and covering up the undesired tone.

Something like this, to make the undesired tone as obvious as possible, might help figure out what's causing it.
I will try to follow your advice thank you
And it reassures me to see that I am not crazy
There is a noise that Synthesizers.com does not hear :hmm:
(Beforehand sorry for my bad English)

see my modular soon finished ...
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/259422
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/361429

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:08 pm

I don't have any of those ADSRs. If I did though I'd compare what their outputs are doing by watching them on an oscilloscope to maybe understad what is happening? 8-)

The Q179 has lots of options. Make sure you don't have one of the fancier modes engaged and that you are emulating the other ADSRs as closely as possible.

Synthesizers.com Q179
Attack: 0 to 100 seconds
Decay: 0 to 10 seconds
Sustain: 0 to 5v
Release: 0 to 100 seconds
Envelope Curves: Linear, Exponential, Logarithmic, Peaky, Bumpy.

Mos-Lab 911
Attack: 2ms to 10sec
Decay: 2ms to 10sec
Sustain: 0 to 5.5V
Release: 2ms to 10sec
Envelope Curve: ???

Oakley ADSR
Attack: 0.75 to 60 seconds
Decay: 1.8mS to 75 seconds
Sustain: 0 to 5v
Release: 1.8mS to 75 seconds
Envelope Curve: Exponential

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fabodyssey
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Post by fabodyssey » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:45 am

JohnLRice wrote:I don't have any of those ADSRs. If I did though I'd compare what their outputs are doing by watching them on an oscilloscope to maybe understad what is happening? 8-)

The Q179 has lots of options. Make sure you don't have one of the fancier modes engaged and that you are emulating the other ADSRs as closely as possible.

Synthesizers.com Q179
Attack: 0 to 100 seconds
Decay: 0 to 10 seconds
Sustain: 0 to 5v
Release: 0 to 100 seconds
Envelope Curves: Linear, Exponential, Logarithmic, Peaky, Bumpy.

Mos-Lab 911
Attack: 2ms to 10sec
Decay: 2ms to 10sec
Sustain: 0 to 5.5V
Release: 2ms to 10sec
Envelope Curve: ???

Oakley ADSR
Attack: 0.75 to 60 seconds
Decay: 1.8mS to 75 seconds
Sustain: 0 to 5v
Release: 1.8mS to 75 seconds
Envelope Curve: Exponential
Have you heard my problem?

Synthezisers.com analyzed with oscilloscope and found nothing abnormal
He made me test my power supply which works well
I've tested Curve control in the 3 positions, there is noise.

The only interesting thing:
Q179 output+ -> direct in filter and audio output filter -> direct in VCA Without CV (Therefore always open)
There is no noise, well! But damage this is restricted as use.

Otherwise I tried the classic patch with 2 envelopes:
-EG Q179 to Filter and EG mos-lab to VCA: There is almost no noise
-EG mos-lab to Filter and Q179 to VCA: There is the noise

I conclude that in my configuration, I can not make a classic patch: Q179 which controls VCF and VCA at the same time. Not practical damage.

With this topic, I would like to know if it is a problem just on my module and at the same time prove to Synthezisers.com that I do not dream this unpleasant noise.
(Beforehand sorry for my bad English)

see my modular soon finished ...
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/259422
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/361429

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TimeRaveler
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Post by TimeRaveler » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:42 am

Which VCA are you using?

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fabodyssey
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Post by fabodyssey » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:16 pm

TimeRaveler wrote:Which VCA are you using?
I use mos-lab 902 and Oakley Dual CVA
(Beforehand sorry for my bad English)

see my modular soon finished ...
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/259422
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/361429

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vav
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Post by vav » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:48 pm

I certainly hear it :hmm:
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Post by Mirolab » Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:33 pm

Sounds like some high frequency hash possibly leaking from the Q179++ output. Ideally, you would look at this on an oscilloscope, and you would see it quickly. But assuming you do not have a scope, maybe you could just 'listen' to the envelope output. Patch the envelope output directly to your audio mixer... beware the HIGH LEVELS...start low. But you should only hear a click at most with each trigger, and see your woofers move in and out. If you hear any other noise at all, that's not good. That noise would also be part of the signal controlling your VCA. Also listen to one of your 'good' ADSRs to compare.

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Post by EPTC » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:31 pm

Since you mention using the R24, I don't know if this is the same for the COTK, but have you tried shortening the gate width on the sequencer?

Just to try something: The GRP can send out a huge variety of different signals, depending on the width of the pulse width dial. Maybe try tightening the portamento all the way down, the same as the pulse width, to nearly nothing, to make a really snappy gate for the envelope. It might be the sequencers that are bleeding past the envelope input.

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fabodyssey
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Post by fabodyssey » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:46 pm

Mirolab wrote:Sounds like some high frequency hash possibly leaking from the Q179++ output. Ideally, you would look at this on an oscilloscope, and you would see it quickly. But assuming you do not have a scope, maybe you could just 'listen' to the envelope output. Patch the envelope output directly to your audio mixer... beware the HIGH LEVELS...start low. But you should only hear a click at most with each trigger, and see your woofers move in and out. If you hear any other noise at all, that's not good. That noise would also be part of the signal controlling your VCA. Also listen to one of your 'good' ADSRs to compare.
I just made your test
Congratulations, very good idea, it is the test that had to be done, is exactly that
we hear directly the unpleasant noise on the Q179.
The Q179 is therefore the source of the noise.
The other envelopes do not make their parasitic noise appear
The click is clearly in the high frequencies

Q179++: Direct recording at the output of the envelope
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/4 ... eg/s-NuPvp
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/4-q179-direct-output-eg/s-NuPvp


Mos-lab: Direct recording at the output of the envelope
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/5 ... eg/s-8OY1l
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/5-mos-lab-direct-output-eg/s-8OY1l


Oakley: Direct recording at the output of the envelope
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/6 ... eg/s-rfi46
https://soundcloud.com/user-139594803/6-oakley-direct-eg/s-rfi46
(Beforehand sorry for my bad English)

see my modular soon finished ...
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/259422
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/361429

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Post by EPTC » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:50 pm

Following the rule of tech tests, have you also tried a simple intermittence test for your connections?

Move the Q179 to the location of a working module and use the other working module's power cable.

I'd do the same with patch cables.

I'd also try moving the module to another location, like away from that VCA.

You know, it's often the Steven Martin rule - "Maybe it's the needle".

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fabodyssey
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Post by fabodyssey » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:14 pm

EPTC wrote:Following the rule of tech tests, have you also tried a simple intermittence test for your connections?

Move the Q179 to the location of a working module and use the other working module's power cable.

I'd do the same with patch cables.

I'd also try moving the module to another location, like away from that VCA.

You know, it's often the Steven Martin rule - "Maybe it's the needle".
I had thought to test the "pulse width" of the GRP
and I tried to try to eloing the Q179 thank you
(Beforehand sorry for my bad English)

see my modular soon finished ...
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/259422
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/361429

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Post by Mirolab » Sun May 07, 2017 9:06 pm

I can't believe nobody else has chimed in on the issue with the new Q179 Envelope++. Like many, I jumped in on the 2 module pre-sale deal, thinking this might replace one of my standard ADSRs. But as got to trying it out, I too noticed a grainy fuzziness in the sound of it. Pulling out my trusty very-old O'scope... yay... it still works!.... I saw the problem immediately. We know this unit is all digital, but it's running at 1kHz, which in my opinion is simply too low a frequency. The waveforms you see in the pics have a period of 50msec, thus 20Hz. Each little stair step is 1 msec, and imprints square-wave harmonics at 1 kHz and up, onto whatever is being modulated. I've found it to be unsatisfactory for modulating VCAs or VCFs.

I have returned one of the Q179's for a refund, but I also kept one. This is still a really useful module... You can use the envelope to modulate rates of other things with no ill effect. And mostly I love the gate/trigger delay feature, and the 4 step mini-sequencer feature. It's still very cool, and you should think about one, but don't think it will replace your other envelopes.

And WOW that LED is WAY too bright!! I've had to put a piece of tape over it. It's a retina burner.

This is the Q179 in loop mode running at 20Hz:
Image

This is the SSL 1230 VC-ADSR (also digital) in loop mode running at 20Hz:
Image

This is the Q179 with Log curve selected:
Image

This is the SSL 1230 with Log curve selected:
Image

I really hate to criticize anything Roger does, and I love that he's increasing the feature density of new modules, but in this case, I think the clock rate is about 20 times too low.... I cranked the SSL loop way up, and I could just barely tell that it's running at about 20kHz. And even then, it shows smoothing on top of that, rather than hard stair steps. I own both the 1230 and 1235 ADSRs, and really like them.

....... Mirolab.

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Post by ranix » Mon May 08, 2017 4:19 pm

I have also noticed this issue with the Q179. I was expecting it though, and didn't discard any of my other envelope generators in favor of it. It's a useful addition to my setup, but it is not a replacement for a Q109

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Post by Dave Peck » Mon May 08, 2017 5:40 pm

Yikes, why on earth is it clocking internally at such a low frequency? This certainly explains the audio artifacts we can hear in the OP/s clips, and these artifacts would make an EG pretty useless for me.

It should be running MUCH faster, like 10kHz or higher, with just enough slew/filtering on the D/A to get rid of the much less significant 10kHz stepping, to assure that instantaneous attacks and extremely fast decays are not affected by the filtering because the cutoff is at a very high frequency.

If a clock is running way down at 1kHz, you then have to make a big design compromise between filtering out the audio artifacts caused by the stepping, or retaining the ability to have extremely fast envelopes but letting the artifacts remain, but you can't do BOTH when the clock rate is that low. This is disappointing.

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Post by coyoteous » Mon May 08, 2017 7:17 pm

Yikes and disappointing, indeed... I like to have multiple reasons to buy or not buy a particular module... one big strike in the not column for this one, while the SSL VCEG gets a check in the other one.
Shark, jumped.

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Post by megaohm » Mon May 08, 2017 10:05 pm

Excellent investigative skills, Mirolab!
Certainly illustrates the OP's problem and explains it great, too.
Mirolab wrote:I can't believe nobody else has chimed in on the issue with the new Q179 Envelope++. Like many, I jumped in on the 2 module pre-sale deal, thinking this might replace one of my standard ADSRs. But as got to trying it out, I too noticed a grainy fuzziness in the sound of it. Pulling out my trusty very-old O'scope... yay... it still works!.... I saw the problem immediately. We know this unit is all digital, but it's running at 1kHz, which in my opinion is simply too low a frequency. The waveforms you see in the pics have a period of 50msec, thus 20Hz. Each little stair step is 1 msec, and imprints square-wave harmonics at 1 kHz and up, onto whatever is being modulated. I've found it to be unsatisfactory for modulating VCAs or VCFs.

I have returned one of the Q179's for a refund, but I also kept one. This is still a really useful module... You can use the envelope to modulate rates of other things with no ill effect. And mostly I love the gate/trigger delay feature, and the 4 step mini-sequencer feature. It's still very cool, and you should think about one, but don't think it will replace your other envelopes.

And WOW that LED is WAY too bright!! I've had to put a piece of tape over it. It's a retina burner.

This is the Q179 in loop mode running at 20Hz:
Image

This is the SSL 1230 VC-ADSR (also digital) in loop mode running at 20Hz:
Image

This is the Q179 with Log curve selected:
Image

This is the SSL 1230 with Log curve selected:
Image

I really hate to criticize anything Roger does, and I love that he's increasing the feature density of new modules, but in this case, I think the clock rate is about 20 times too low.... I cranked the SSL loop way up, and I could just barely tell that it's running at about 20kHz. And even then, it shows smoothing on top of that, rather than hard stair steps. I own both the 1230 and 1235 ADSRs, and really like them.

....... Mirolab.
www.MegaOhmAudio.com

Will work for pistachios

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Post by fabodyssey » Wed May 10, 2017 7:15 am

Mirolab wrote:I can't believe nobody else has chimed in on the issue with the new Q179 Envelope++. Like many, I jumped in on the 2 module pre-sale deal, thinking this might replace one of my standard ADSRs. But as got to trying it out, I too noticed a grainy fuzziness in the sound of it. Pulling out my trusty very-old O'scope... yay... it still works!.... I saw the problem immediately. We know this unit is all digital, but it's running at 1kHz, which in my opinion is simply too low a frequency. The waveforms you see in the pics have a period of 50msec, thus 20Hz. Each little stair step is 1 msec, and imprints square-wave harmonics at 1 kHz and up, onto whatever is being modulated. I've found it to be unsatisfactory for modulating VCAs or VCFs.

I have returned one of the Q179's for a refund, but I also kept one. This is still a really useful module... You can use the envelope to modulate rates of other things with no ill effect. And mostly I love the gate/trigger delay feature, and the 4 step mini-sequencer feature. It's still very cool, and you should think about one, but don't think it will replace your other envelopes.

And WOW that LED is WAY too bright!! I've had to put a piece of tape over it. It's a retina burner.
....... Mirolab.
Thank you Mirolab :yay:
for your answer, very well explained.
I hope that synthesizer.com will make a correction in the future.
(Beforehand sorry for my bad English)

see my modular soon finished ...
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/259422
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/361429

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Post by fabodyssey » Wed May 10, 2017 8:30 am

Mirolab wrote:I really hate to criticize anything Roger does, and I love that he's increasing the feature density of new modules
I also approve the work of Roger
and the Q179 is very good for example sounds with a few attacks on the filter (very fast for brass)
I can not do it as well with my other envelope.
Just regret for the audio artifacts :roll:
(Beforehand sorry for my bad English)

see my modular soon finished ...
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/259422
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/view/361429

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Post by SynthBaron » Wed May 10, 2017 10:23 pm

Reality is that the entire system is designed around both a specific price point and the minimalist design style of the engineer.

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Post by Rex Coil 7 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:44 am

SynthBaron wrote:Reality is that the entire system is designed around both a specific price point and the minimalist design style of the engineer.
So ... "cheap and unfeatured"? Not so certain I agree.

Member *SynthBaron
's statement could be taken a few different ways.

Many times when someone says that a product has been "engineered down to cost" it's a clever way of saying the product is "cheaply made" .. in other words it's a cleverly crafted insult.

I am open to having my attitude reconfigured regarding member *SynthBaron's comment.

:despair:

So after over seventeen years of producing (pretty much) home run hits, Roger ~slipped~ a bit on this one. Compared to all of his successful designs, that's a milligram's worth of "awe shit" within a ton of "attaboy!"

8-)

EDIT: My own "awe shit" here ... I didn't realize these last few posts were made in May of last year. Meh, my statement still stands, however. :despair:
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Post by ranix » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:31 am

it was almost awesome and instead it sucks

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