New modes for the E352 Cloud Terrarium

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

Moderators: luketeaford, Joe., lisa, Kent

Post Reply
JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:31 am

I'm no expert but I think this is a good white paper by Dan Lavry. He is focused on audio sampling and not synthesis but for what it is worth:

The Optimal Sample Rate For Quality Audio
http://www.lavryengineering.com/pdfs/la ... _audio.pdf

"Although 60 KHz would be closer to the ideal; given the existing standards, 88.2 KHz and 96 KHz are closest
to the optimal sample rate. At 96 KHz sampling rate the theoretical bandwidth is 48 KHz. In designing a real
world converter operating at 96 KHz, one ends up with a bandwidth of approximately 40 KHz."

Brian Odey 1
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 11:29 am
Location: UK

Post by Brian Odey 1 » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:00 am

JohnLRice wrote:I'm no expert but I think this is a good white paper by Dan Lavry. He is focused on audio sampling and not synthesis but for what it is worth:

The Optimal Sample Rate For Quality Audio
http://www.lavryengineering.com/pdfs/la ... _audio.pdf

"Although 60 KHz would be closer to the ideal; given the existing standards, 88.2 KHz and 96 KHz are closest
to the optimal sample rate. At 96 KHz sampling rate the theoretical bandwidth is 48 KHz. In designing a real
world converter operating at 96 KHz, one ends up with a bandwidth of approximately 40 KHz."
Totally agree with this if you are <20 years old and can pick out 20kHz and its aliases from one sound source with a vast bottom end (this would be doubtful). But what Paul is saying is that features may not be added, because he may not be able to reach 96kHz rates. So in the pursuit of one theoretical spec, features might not be added? On the flip side, the implications are that sample rates of 44kHz are no longer good or not as good - which would be far from the truth - the difference is not worth the cost adder in this application, particularly for those >30 Years old.

User avatar
Joe.
Wired for sound
Posts: 4994
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:58 pm

Post by Joe. » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:09 am

Brian Odey 1 wrote:30 Years old.
I'm older than 30. my only real question at this point is... do you even have a modular synth?

User avatar
dubonaire
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 6793
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:45 pm

Post by dubonaire » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:31 am

Brian Odey 1 wrote:I have trawled through all your patents, and whilst they are sort of granted or maintained, they are not entirely relevant; only one really relates to analog audio work. Even that is not that groundbreaking, and quite old. Coin operated machines? I 'spose they make a sound.
I'm wondering how many successful modules you've designed and produced. I have several excellent highly functional and high quality synth tech modules in my rack. The interesting thing about Paul's modules is that although he is an engineer and not a musician as such, his modules are extremely musical. (No one demonstrates this better than John L Rice.) I think his user base is relatively comfortable he knows what he is doing.

User avatar
z3r01
The Mighty Souls
Posts: 2028
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:28 am
Location: Singapore

Post by z3r01 » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:03 am

dubonaire wrote:
Brian Odey 1 wrote:I have trawled through all your patents, and whilst they are sort of granted or maintained, they are not entirely relevant; only one really relates to analog audio work. Even that is not that groundbreaking, and quite old. Coin operated machines? I 'spose they make a sound.
I'm wondering how many successful modules you've designed and produced. I have several excellent highly functional and high quality synth tech modules in my rack. The interesting thing about Paul's modules is that although he is an engineer and not a musician as such, his modules are extremely musical. (No one demonstrates this better than John L Rice.) I think his user base is relatively comfortable he knows what he is doing.
I would just like to add, not as a rebuttal to Brian Odey, but more a matter-of-fact, that Mr Robert Rich is a close collaborator of Synth Tech/Mr Schreiber, which probably explains the 'musical' aspect of ST modules.

That, coupled with Mr Brombaugh's coding skills, is pretty much the closest thing to a holy trinity* (of the synthesizer kind) in my opinion.

*Quaternity if you include JLR's demo-ing chops. :cloud:

Dogma
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 4137
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:46 pm

Post by Dogma » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:15 am

why is everyone giving this guy so much air?? these threads go like that ive noticed - someone says something ridiculous and repeats it ad nauseum and everyone else just defends something that doesnt require defending instead of just ignoring it. ..
I was going to link the Dan Lavry papers but then I thought "not like he'll read them"


Hey Paul - please keep the demos coming - all the modes please! :)

** Oh Bill - your getting the human hearing range confused with digital processing techniques. That simple.

User avatar
x2mirko
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 641
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:09 pm
Location: Aachen, Germany

Post by x2mirko » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:34 am

Dogma wrote:why is everyone giving this guy so much air??
Exactly. He's obviously trolling and it's not even subtle. The preferred solution would be to ban him, as it's quite apparent that this account only exists to troll on this topic. But if that fails, just ignore him. Arguing with trolls is nearly as silly as the trolling itself.

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:01 am

Thanks much for the kind words, dubonaire and z3r01!
:sb: 8-)

paults
mice nuts
Posts: 4472
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:46 am

Post by paults » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:16 am

1) I depend on many beta testers to give the beta units a good thrashing (like inject white noise into all the CV inputs and see what happens). You should never proof-read your own term papers, and I want 3rd parties to look at each module to detect issues.

Robert Rich is my 'first line' beta tester, someone with acute hearing, a great sonic studio with superb speakers/amps/acoustics so he can hear even the smallest audio 'quirks'. He also approaches the module a lot differently than others, very 'West Coast' approach, trying multiple feedback loops. He's already added 6 new features/modes after having the unit 5 days. Lastly, since he has extensive touring use with modular, he suggested several UI changes specific for live performance. All users will benefit.

The next 2 beta testers have won Emmys for sound production. :sb:

2) I don't mind some trolling, I do it myself on occasion. I think in this specific case, the person does not understand DSP, does not understand 'real world' audio versus 'theory' and has never built a mass-produced product. So, knowing that, the comments are water off a duck's back as Granny used to say.

These same arguments were used since the day Sony introduced the CD player. And are still repeated today. Some are 'technical', some are like arguing over what is the best beer. :guinness:

DSP can be "non-obvious" to laymen.

Brian Odey 1
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 11:29 am
Location: UK

Post by Brian Odey 1 » Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:54 pm

paults wrote:1) I depend on many beta testers to give the beta units a good thrashing (like inject white noise into all the CV inputs and see what happens). You should never proof-read your own term papers, and I want 3rd parties to look at each module to detect issues.

Robert Rich is my 'first line' beta tester, someone with acute hearing, a great sonic studio with superb speakers/amps/acoustics so he can hear even the smallest audio 'quirks'. He also approaches the module a lot differently than others, very 'West Coast' approach, trying multiple feedback loops. He's already added 6 new features/modes after having the unit 5 days. Lastly, since he has extensive touring use with modular, he suggested several UI changes specific for live performance. All users will benefit.

The next 2 beta testers have won Emmys for sound production. :sb:

2) I don't mind some trolling, I do it myself on occasion. I think in this specific case, the person does not understand DSP, does not understand 'real world' audio versus 'theory' and has never built a mass-produced product. So, knowing that, the comments are water off a duck's back as Granny used to say.

These same arguments were used since the day Sony introduced the CD player. And are still repeated today. Some are 'technical', some are like arguing over what is the best beer. :guinness:

DSP can be "non-obvious" to laymen.
So Paul, can you tell the difference between 44kHz and 96kHz in any form, application or reason? If you can, then I'll test you - it's gloves off.

User avatar
ignatius
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 15489
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:03 pm
Location: oregon
Contact:

Post by ignatius » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:07 pm

is there an emoji that expresses i was thinking about "getting out the popcorn but this trolling is so uninteresting/lacking in entertainment that i can't be bothered to get the popcorn"???

Image


so, on topic... tell me more about those modes

User avatar
VZvision
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:10 am

Post by VZvision » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:22 pm

is there an emoji that expresses i was thinking about "getting out the popcorn but this trolling is so uninteresting/lacking in entertainment that i can't be bothered to get the popcorn"???
Stage 1: :popcorn: ?

Stage 2: :soapbox: :bop: :rage: :soapbox: :bop: :rage:

Stage 3: :roll:

And a special one for Brian Odey on how you make me feel....:russian:

User avatar
Pighood
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2041
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:48 pm

Post by Pighood » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:25 pm

I DEMAND ALL BURRORACK MODJEWELS PASS THE PUPPY SENSORY STIMUGATION TEST :eek:
*phnert*

User avatar
mbartkow
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 723
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:31 am
Location: Moonbase Alpha

Post by mbartkow » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:47 pm

Brian Odey 1

Do you know what happens when you apply frequency modulation to a non-sinusoidal (but strictly band limited) signal with a modulator that is also non-sinusoidal (but also strictly band limited)? It explodes. Even at a moderate modulation depth it becomes infinite and slowly decaying. Are you saying there is no audible difference between heavily aliased signal whose spectrum is wrapped just above 20kHz and a signal with 100% more room in the frequency domain for the aliased terms?

User avatar
Pighood
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2041
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:48 pm

Post by Pighood » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:53 pm

In addition, such frequencies curl granite tiles and void their warranties.
*phnert*

User avatar
Funky40
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 5812
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:08 pm
Location: on a big voyage

Post by Funky40 » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:02 pm

i thought euro is all about noise, and now you guys want to develope it off ? ....and then add it back :hmm:
;)


The VCDO/FMVDO is still one of my favorite VCOs ever.
a early modular work from emeb.
very curious to see where things go now.........
For sale:........it won´t sell, so i stopp bother you ;)

paults
mice nuts
Posts: 4472
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:46 am

Post by paults » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:21 pm

Brian:

you are still "locked on" to thinking we are playing back non-modulated files, like a CD player.

In DSP, the "sample rate" has many OTHER implications for, as mbartkow accurately pointed out, non-sinusoidal signals being FM'd by other, non-sinusoidal signals. Like in a VCO, which is what we are building.

This is not about the same old tired CD/DAT/Mini-disc/MP3/FLACC/etc crap. This is about non-STATIC signals, being MODULATED. And the alias signals created.

BTW: we are running the DSP at 168MHz and are getting 96KHz sample rates at ~ 60% CPU loading. Thanks for asking.

paults
mice nuts
Posts: 4472
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:46 am

Post by paults » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:25 pm

Do you know what happens when you apply frequency modulation to a non-sinusoidal (but strictly band limited) signal with a modulator that is also non-sinusoidal (but also strictly band limited)? It explodes. Even at a moderate modulation depth it becomes infinite and slowly decaying. Are you saying there is no audible difference between heavily aliased signal whose spectrum is wrapped just above 20kHz and a signal with 100% more room in the frequency domain for the aliased terms?

No, he doesn't. He's trying to argue like it's 1994 about "digital" versus "analog".

paults
mice nuts
Posts: 4472
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:46 am

Post by paults » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:26 pm

Fun Fact: the new electron drum machine uses 24-bit, 192KHz sampling. Wonder why?

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:44 pm

paults wrote:Fun Fact: the new electron drum machine uses 24-bit, 192KHz sampling. Wonder why?
Marketing?

paults
mice nuts
Posts: 4472
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:46 am

Post by paults » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:48 pm

Nope.

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:50 pm

paults wrote:Nope.
:hihi:

User avatar
TemplarK
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1160
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:31 pm
Location: Outer Space

Post by TemplarK » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:02 pm

paults wrote:Fun Fact: the new electron drum machine uses 24-bit, 192KHz sampling. Wonder why?
So they can sell you their usb hub that transfers data faster?

User avatar
Shwaj
Common Wiggler
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:55 pm
Location: California

Post by Shwaj » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:17 am

Big new twist in the "Brian Odey 1" saga!

Rumor has it that "Brian" is actually a sock puppet controlled by paults... but to what end? Nobody is really sure of anything at this point, but one prominent theory is that "Brian" plays the role of a punching bag for paults to pummel with his dominant knowledge of audio math and DSP hacking.

The obvious goal of this charade is to inspire false confidence in the quality of his modules, allowing him to unload his junk for 10x what it would fetch, were the true facts known.

Looks like we're really headed down the rabbit hole on this one, folks...

Amirite? :nana:

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:46 am

Shwaj wrote:Big new twist in the "Brian Odey 1" saga!

Rumor has it that "Brian" is actually a sock puppet controlled by paults... but to what end? Nobody is really sure of anything at this point, but one prominent theory is that "Brian" plays the role of a punching bag for paults to pummel with his dominant knowledge of audio math and DSP hacking.

The obvious goal of this charade is to inspire false confidence in the quality of his modules, allowing him to unload his junk for 10x what it would fetch, were the true facts known.

Looks like we're really headed down the rabbit hole on this one, folks...

Amirite? :nana:

Many governments, universities, and enemies of Austin Powers have poured "millions" . . . I mean "BILLIONS" of research dollars into trying to understand the inner workings of Paul T Schreiber but all have failed so far because the laboratory mice always die before they are able to obtain a high enough concentration of Dr. Pepper in their blood streams. :hihi:

Post Reply

Return to “Eurorack Modules”