Is Moog Model 15 worth it , why ?

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Synthoholic
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Post by Synthoholic » Mon May 22, 2017 8:18 am

coyoteous wrote:
Synthoholic wrote:
ranix wrote:Moon modules are hit or miss, I would start with a different manufacturer like Synthwerk or Synthesizers.com and splash Moon modules

I give Moon a C+.
Ouch... based on what?

I, too, have the quirky divider and dual envelope, but other modules that seem solid so far (A for me... not much for plus/minus letter grading).

It would be nice have some official statement on known problems, though.
I will reply with the details as soon as my situation is resolved. It has been a less-than-pleasant experience, but I will say that Moon excels at the modulation options offered. Stay tuned.

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Mon May 22, 2017 8:21 am

Analog Music wrote:
JohnLRice wrote::eek: Mark11Audio and Bowman, thanks so much for your exceedingly kind words! :hail: It is my normal response to high praise but I will avoid trying to point out all the ways I think I suck! :oops: Thanks again! :hug:
Yes John I'm a big fan .
Would really like to talk to you about this video ?
What would I need with the Moog Model 15 to sequence like you in this video ?
Would I need more oscillators or something more ?
And how would you compare the Grp R24 to the moon 569 ?
[video][/video]

don't know why video link not showing up
Thanks, I'm glad you like my stuff! :party: 8-)

To get videos to show up on the forum you need to remove the letter "s" from the "https://" at the beginning of the link. The "s" is for Secure links and the old forum software doesn't work with those. (I think? :hmm: )
[video][/video]

Anyways, if you want to reproduce what I did in that video with a Moog System 15 or similar I think you would need a case to go on top of the System 15 like this (see Synthesizers.com for the one pictured below or Mos-Lab makes one too):
Image

Then fill the case with what is shown in the video from Moon Modular:
a 569 Quad Sequential Voltage Source
a 569EGB Gate Output Expander Basic
a 569ESB Set Input Expander Basic

I think that would do it since I believe I was only using two independent voices each consisting of 1 VCO, 1 EG and 1 VCA (no VCFs needed) and a Moog System 15 has all of that. (All the voice modules were Synth Tech MOTM in my video)

I was transposing the sequence off screen and probably using a MIDI keyboard through a MIDI to CV interface.

And there is some reverb effect on it as well.

OK, I can't think of anything else! :tu:

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Post by tesserack » Mon May 22, 2017 11:38 am

Analog Music wrote:Thanks guys for your help .
Let me say that I'm more of a quality over quantity person .

I say this because I see several post saying , you could get so much more for the price of a Moog model 15 . But would I get the same quality and sound , would those systems last as long ?

I'm not looking for a whole wall of modular , I'm just looking for the best sound available on the planet and use it to make music .

I also like the live performance capabilities of the 15 because it looks portable .

So when Moog says hey this box cost $10,000 , what are they really saying hear ?
Are they purposefully overcharging like some have suggested hear or is It worth something more , than some of us can see ?
I ran the numbers and $2,000 for a system 15 in 1974 equates to about $10,400 in 2017.

From what you've written, I'd say go ahead and purchase the Moog.

If it were me I would follow much of the advice here and spend the $10,000 on a synthesizer.com system because that money would buy more of everything, including a sequencer. (that is if I had $10,000 to spare). Good luck

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Post by bwhittington » Mon May 22, 2017 2:52 pm

Trying to answer this more succinctly, I think a Model 15 by itself might be a little disappointing to me, versus a more well-rounded system from other builders with sequencing and maybe some bonus modulators, etc that could cost much less. But a Model 15 + Moon sequencing modules in their nifty matching P cabinet could be the best of both worlds--inspiring classic design with extended capabilities. So I'd rather spend $5k or $15k. :hihi:
Last edited by bwhittington on Mon May 22, 2017 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by coyoteous » Mon May 22, 2017 3:15 pm

Gert's having P Cabs too now, right?

As much as I agree with bwhittington, if I were going with one brand, it would be Moon… two: Moon and Synth-Werk.

Me, I have S.C, COTK, Moon, STG, Yusynth, SSL, K1/Oakley, FSFX, Mos-Lab, Analog Craftsman and Happy Nerding in MU (about 80 single-widths)… plus another 35U (expanding to 70) in original MOTM and some MOTM format.

So, the exercise is academic for me.
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Post by bwhittington » Mon May 22, 2017 3:23 pm

coyoteous wrote:As much as I agree with bwhittington, if I were going with one brand, it would be Moon… two: Moon and Synth-Werk.
Yeah, personally I'd prefer Moon voices to Moog, but I get the appeal.

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Post by ranix » Mon May 22, 2017 4:21 pm

JohnLRice wrote: Then fill the case with what is shown in the video from Moon Modular:
a 569 Quad Sequential Voltage Source
a 569EGB Gate Output Expander Basic
a 569ESB Set Input Expander Basic
FWIW, none of the Moon modules suggested by JLR are ones I've had problems with. The Moon 569 is very nice and I do want one, but I can't decide between it and the GRP R24

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Post by Synthoholic » Mon May 22, 2017 8:39 pm

coyoteous wrote:if I were going with one brand, it would be Moon… two: Moon and Synth-Werk.

I recently decided to sell my dotcom voice and replace it with some other manufacturers. I got Moon, Synth-Werk, Analog Craftsman. Add this to Moslab, Dotcom, and STG-- so far, STG, Moslab, and Synth-Werk are the finest quality modules I have owned. Plus there is the added benefit of getting to forge a relationship directly with the manufacturers.

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Post by josaka » Tue May 23, 2017 1:13 am

quite a few chiming in on what they have and which they prefer.. which is great..! :)

but no one has said why they prefer one thing over another..?
do people buy moon because it sounds more modern? is it moar louder ?
don't like .com because ..not black enough? prefer synthwerk over mos-lab because>smoother paint?
...be good to have sonic/build/function reasons too :)

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Post by Leverkusen » Tue May 23, 2017 2:31 am

josaka wrote:quite a few chiming in on what they have and which they prefer.. which is great..! :)

but no one has said why they prefer one thing over another..?
do people buy moon because it sounds more modern? is it moar louder ?
don't like .com because ..not black enough? prefer synthwerk over mos-lab because>smoother paint?
...be good to have sonic/build/function reasons too :)
Hm, sometimes it's as stupid as this.

When I started I thought about a dotcom system but then went for COTK then. One of the reasons for this was that I did not want to have an internet domain name on every single module. It might be a bit picky. :despair:

Now I only purchase new stuff when it's possible to DIY. It's fun to build and saves me from spending too much money. Thinking what my system might look like today when I had spent the money I lost through buying and selling stuff into DIY hurts a bit. But that's learning I guess...

At the moment most stuff I build is Oakley. Tony is based in Europe so I don't have to sit around at the customs office and the modules are very well designed functionwise and sound great. Also the documentation is marvelous!

CGS does look interesting too, many small and unusual designs. Also the Haible designs random*source is providing are very tempting, esp. Living VCOs and Krautrock Phaser...

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Post by josaka » Tue May 23, 2017 5:13 am

yea.. "club of the knobs" ...a much better thing to have on your modules !! :) :)

I too think its a cop out to have a web address on the modules..
what ever happened to cool elite clever logo designs..?
I think rodger (who has done quite well tbf :) ) would be better off with some cool design and logo.. having said that he may not have as caught as many fresh fish that way.. trade off I guess.. maybe some elite line..?

Hexinverter.net is the same..

Customs and fees sure do become a big part.. but its not why I would go for one over another mostly.

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Post by Leverkusen » Tue May 23, 2017 6:59 am

josaka wrote:yea.. "club of the knobs" ...a much better thing to have on your modules !! :) :)
Yea, somehow I saw that coming... :hihi:
Maybe it's less of an issue if your not native english speaking. Normally I do not notice either that english songs mostly have the same stupid lyrics as german songs. Even the cool ones. :woah:
josaka wrote:I too think its a cop out to have a web address on the modules..
what ever happened to cool elite clever logo designs..?
I think rodger (who has done quite well tbf :) ) would be better off with some cool design and logo.. having said that he may not have as caught as many fresh fish that way.. trade off I guess.. maybe some elite line..?
I don't know - it's not that I can't use google to find a synth website when I know the maker. Maybe wasn't that easy back in the days when he began. To be honest I still cannot memorise if it's synthesizer.com or synthesizers.com.
josaka wrote: Hexinverter.net is the same..
Somehow sounds slightly cooler, but really, I would not go for a cruise on a boat that is called MyShip either. It's embarrassing somehow.
josaka wrote: Customs and fees sure do become a big part.. but its not why I would go for one over another mostly.
Perhaps not if it is really important - it's more that there are many interesting options and there is nothing that speaks against Oakley for example - great modules, everything in stock most of the times, so why undertake the hassle. Cause on the other hand, regarding DIY, I find the synthcube site terrible to navigate and when I find something it's mostly out of stock. So it's not realistic to combine multiple orders to save some shipping costs and customs time. And the one time I requested a complete price for a dotcom module It was doubled by taxes and the rediculeous shipping costs. I liked ordering at Modular Addict though - fast, cheap shipping and everything in stock I was looking for.

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Post by Mark11Audio » Tue May 23, 2017 10:55 am

josaka wrote:@Mark11Audio.. hey mark was wondering why you are selling off your mos lab and going moon..
the sound? build ? design?
..just curious as I am buying some mos lab as we speak..

I have many different makers in my set up hordijk/oakley/corsynth/mos-lab/.com/krisp1/Stroh/Fritz etc.. why the chopped mos lab.? .:)
This was a long thought out personal decision for me...

I had too many different product lines with different voltages in my big system and things were just not playing nice together... separately, they sounded fantastic... but together, it just wasn't happening... I could have spent the next several month's emailing back n forth to Sebastien and Gert trying to get my levels sorted out, but I was already 2 years in this build and still not finished!

It was at that frustration level of :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: , I needed to either make several systems ALL stand alone, or cut something out and start over so I could make some actual music... Mos-Lab lost, and Moon won... the new design is cleaner, ALL one voltage, my outputs are consistent across the entire system, no more guess work, no more DIY adjustments of electronics... and by the middle of June, this "should" be done and finished all modules in place and music taking place.

All of the cabinets are now back home... finished and awaiting modules and PSU's and wiring to be finalized by me... but all the power stuff is here and previously done from the old system...

current state of things: :tu: 1/3 done and powered !!!

120U

Image

and for comparison, the old system before the "chop."

200U

Image

oh, and one last issue... I couldn't lift that big center double wide cabinet myself anymore, AND it wouldn't fit in my car... had to rent a truck... now, the smaller system ALL fits in my car... and I can move it entirely by myself... :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay:

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Post by bwhittington » Tue May 23, 2017 11:11 am

josaka wrote:quite a few chiming in on what they have and which they prefer.. which is great..! :)

but no one has said why they prefer one thing over another..?
do people buy moon because it sounds more modern?
Fair point.

I gave Moon a vote because the VCO set includes a broad set of features that the Moog does not, and its dual format seemed a little bit in keeping with the Moog driver concept the OP must like. I also prefer the sound to some of the other oscillators I've used. A little brighter, much better sine than the Dotcom Q106, easy design for crossmod patches, etc. If the OP is voting for one brand, the 511C (10v eg, vc), 569 (4 sequencers in one), 563 (super playable trig seq, divider), 564 (unique switch w/ divider), and 592 (perfect utility interface, covers a lot of mixing/amplification/inversion/distribution ground) are all favorites of mine and the forthcoming dual 517 filter shows a lot of promise from its videos. No idea about the other Moon EG or the VCA's. Their dual formats don't really suit my interests.

I mentioned Oakley for its similar density in cool design flexibility in modules like the Multimix and Quad VCA/VC Mixer. Both can be patched in different ways, adding a lot of functionality and top-quality components to the smaller system the OP favors. Similarly, the Sample Slew and EG/VCA packs a ton of otherwise missing functionality into a small space. And similarly the VRG . . . I've named way too many modules to fit into a P Cabinet, but I think a small Moon/Oakley system could be amazing.

There are a lot of great filter choices across brands, depending on what you are after, but I've certainly never been disappointed by an Oakley filter either. I used to really want a Moog 904 set, but nostalgia was the main reason.

I also like the Dotcom Q106, though, despite its disappointing sine wave. If density were not a question, I would be perfectly thrilled with just them. Lots of great modulation options, which to me are more important than a specific tone. But the OP seems to want to spent some money, so I'll skip singing Dotcom's praises.

A lot of these things are apples/oranges comparisons, of course, but the main reason I personally wouldn't pick just a Model 15 and nothing else mainly lies in the modules I haven't mentioned at all yet. Quirky little CGS and Yusynth gems, SSL TTLFO's, STG Switch, etc. I've heard a lot of great work people do with small systems like the Model 15, but all those extra little modules are in play when I've built up the kind of unique patch that can't be approximated with software, a Minimoog, or whatever.

My favorite modules don't specifically matter, of course. I only mention some of them in the context of a thread about whether a Model 15 is worth it, because a lot of those specific modules do a lot more than their Moog counterparts for considerably less money, as nice as the Moog system might be. And also because josaka kind of asked, of course. :hihi:

To reiterate my earlier statement, I like the Model 15 and think it could be great fun in conjunction with a larger system. Just wouldn't be my favorite pick on its own.

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Post by Squattamolie » Tue May 23, 2017 4:13 pm

Is a Model 15 "worth it"? As a commodity, no. As a product, well, now the gates are open.

The commodity is the basic item (a gallon of milk, a hamburger, a modular synth). The product is the experience the buyer has, using the commodity. It's why some people always buy a Chevy, or a Gibson, etc. This is "Business 101" (Charles Revson, founder of the Revlon makeup conglomerate said "in the factory I manufacture cosmetics, on the showroom floor, I sell hope"). This is the exact same concept that Ray Krok used to turn McDonalds into one of the most successful companies in history - he realized that he was not selling hamburgers, he was selling the experience you get at a McDonalds - which is why there's a McD's everywhere you look, and they're all the same.

As a commodity (a modular synth at roughly that size, with roughly that module compliment), I have trouble imagining anyone thinking it is truly worth $10k. But as a product....well.......if the buyer feels something different (is inspired differently, or creates differently), then that is another matter. I do not "pooh pooh" this, I've learned to respect other folk's experiences and preferences, even if they are a lot different than mine.

A long time ago, I had a chance to hang out with Eric Johnson (a famous guitarist) as the "product guy" for Lexicon, and listen to him play in his studio, answer questions, program sounds, etc. This guy is famous for being unbelievably picky about his tone, to the point where he does things like change the wires for the connector for the 9V battery in his wah-wah pedal. I honestly thought that was ridiculous. It wasn't until I sat there listening to him play that I realized that whether or not there was an actual, measurable, verifiable difference in the sound, it didn't matter at all. As long as he thought there was a difference and it caused him to feel differently (play better), it was literally irrelevant whether there was a "real" difference or not, because the end result was the same.

I look at the Moog reissues the same way. The product they are selling is not a modular synth, it is a vintage Moog modular "experience" - and if someone feels differently, is inspired, and creates different from having it, then I think it is absolutely worth it.

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Post by josaka » Tue May 23, 2017 4:34 pm

Mark11Audio wrote:
This was a long thought out personal decision for me...
yep.. big expensive job !
Mark11Audio wrote:It was at that frustration level of :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
a lot of banging !!
Mark11Audio wrote:, I needed to either make several systems ALL stand alone, or cut something out and start over so I could make some actual music... Mos-Lab lost, and Moon won... the new design is cleaner, ALL one voltage, my outputs are consistent across the entire system, no more guess work, no more DIY adjustments of electronics... and by the middle of June, this "should" be done and finished all modules in place and music taking place.

All of the cabinets are now back home... finished and awaiting modules and PSU's and wiring to be finalized by me... but all the power stuff is here and previously done from the old system...

oh, and one last issue... I couldn't lift that big center double wide cabinet myself anymore, AND it wouldn't fit in my car... had to rent a truck... now, the smaller system ALL fits in my car... and I can move it entirely by myself... :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay:
so its not a sonic thing really..?
I was playing with the kobal(two more coming !)
its very nice .. musical and somehow more cutting with very rich tones straight off the bat.. which is nice.. its shame there is no octave switch..

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Post by coyoteous » Tue May 23, 2017 4:58 pm

Good discussion… of course, the main "why/why not?" about the 15 reissue is the price compared to what you can get from other MU vendors for the same amount.

I still think it's really good for the 5U community that Moog Music made, and is continuing to make, the variations that they are.

I did a breakdown that I can't seem to find of rough per module prices of the reissues based on original Moog price lists as the module vs. system basis.

It varied, but I think the reissue modules came in at about three to six times what you could get from modern MU makers.

So, do you want to pay that much more for them in a fixed configuration?

I don't currently, but more power to you if you do.
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Post by Ranxerox » Tue May 23, 2017 5:21 pm

bwhittington wrote:I also like the Dotcom Q106, though, despite its disappointing sine wave.
Ha, it's true - the sinewave is a little disappointing, but overall I slightly almost prefer the Q106 to my Oakley VCO, for some reason I can't quite put my finger on. The calibrated range switch, maybe? But compared to either, the Krisp1 TZ-VCO is my current favourite in terms of sound and features - it's a beast.

In general though I'm a huge fan of the Krisp1/Oakley stuff, over the years it has gradually usurped all others to become the dominant make in my system (then again I live in the UK which makes that an easier choice). It's easily on a par with Moon and COTK, and in fact like some others I have had mixed experiences with both of those. Not to dwell on that, but I have quite a hodge-podge system and don't feel like I am missing out at all by not having an 'authentic' Moog clone.

In my opinion however, a properly authentic Moog-type portable cab for voicing (901 ABBB, 904, filter set, 911/914 filterbank), coupled with a separate MU cab stuffed full of modern sequencing modules (Klee, M564, dotcom quantizers, COTK/Moon/SSL gate sequencers etc.) would be a mighty awesome system.

But then there's Hordijk...
Last edited by Ranxerox on Tue May 23, 2017 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by EMwhite » Tue May 23, 2017 5:41 pm

coyoteous wrote: It varied, but I think the reissue modules came in at about three to six times what you could get from modern MU makers.
My calculation comes in at ~2x the cost of MOS-LAB but I'm sure you can buy something 1/6th cost or 1/100th the cost somewhere that resembles a monostable multi-vibrator with some bells and whistles that makes buzzing sounds and add a single pole 6db filter for about $10 in parts. That's cool also and you can make music on it that may even sound better than a $35K synth in the hands of a hobbyist. For that matter, just get a laptop with some software and make a hit record, or do something in between. It's all good.

So where did I get 2x from? This takes into account the following:

- an inductor based FFB will set you back $1,200 USD
- a proper portable style tolex covered cabinet w/ removable cover, steel rails, wiring, power supply, etc. will set you back $1,000 USD.
- based on the modules which includes a 'mixer' and a reversible attenuator/mult as built into the bottom CP, the difference is near dead-on 2x the cost of the MOS-LAB modules of the same design (barring the FFB of course). Sebastien makes all of the other modules including the 921. Of course if you are in France, it will cost you less for the MOS-LAB but possibly more of the Model 15 so ymmv.

This coming from an owner of Moog Model 15 and a fair sized MOS-LAB including the new 960.

For what it's worth, the MOS-LAB 921abbb shines in areas that the Moog originals cannot (hard sync and 5vpp output so much more suitable for LFO duty in addition to being able to be 'cut' from the main sync signal;aka can run autonomously). The Moog shines in it's dead on original PCB film, hand made with every detail with the exception of the AB pots included. That and quirky soft sync, whatever that is good for. If you desire craftsmanship and if nostalgic quality is important to you, you may appreciate what the Model 15 is.
,
When I first purchased my first MOS-LAB modules some time ago (the threads are still around here), I very much appreciated Bob's original designs and spent a whole load of time with a simple '8a' sized setup; felt so much could be done with just that small set of modules... still do. This coming from owning Kobol, Double Deka, SSL VCO and Sea Devils, Post Lawsuit filters, STG mixers etc. etc. I've since moved off all of the other gear but still have the MOS-LAB filter complement and some other modules.
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Post by coyoteous » Tue May 23, 2017 7:00 pm

EMwhite: 2X it is, then (probably similar for Synth-Werk in a Moon P-Cab)… guess I'd still rather have at least twice as much for the price, real modularity, etc.

I also think that if Moog Music can make a new Mini to sell at $3500, they're high on the modular reissues… but that's their business (literally… possibly literally high, too).

All that said, I'm not the biggest Moog alone fan, anyway… so, I like going beyond that with ARP, Oberheim, Roland, etc. designs.

My mooogy modular section is now COTK 921ABBB, 904A, 902 and 911 x2 that I got used for a little over $1500 in two buys (plus STG mixer, Mos-Lab attenuators and other substitutes for the small Moog modular experience).

That's just a fraction of the total 5U glory here, though… all had for less than two Model 15 reissues.
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Re: Is Moog Model 15 worth it , why ?

Post by beyourdog » Tue May 23, 2017 7:21 pm

There is another old saying that when you have the money, you don't even have to ask for the price...

...If money and price is an issue for you, then don't even think about going there...

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Post by Synthoholic » Tue May 23, 2017 9:09 pm

In April of 2007, Mike Bucki of Modusonics had the following Price List.

Lower Console Cab, wired with PS$5835.
Portable Cab, wired with PS-$2500

A few modules for comparison:
902 $485
904a $750
907a $1885
914 $2850
911 $425
921 $1285
921a $425
921b $685
960 $4200
1630 $3300
1631 $380
950 $1800
952 $1250
956 $700

System 15 $13,830.

Keep in mind, these were built with NOS parts, had the accessory jacks for the ribbons and all that.

If I remember correctly, the system 35 was $35k and the 55 was $55k. Like a dumbass I threw out those lists.

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Post by JohnLRice » Tue May 23, 2017 10:11 pm

Synthoholic wrote:In April of 2007, Mike Bucki of Modusonics had the following Price List.
The Wayback Machine rocks for stuff like this. :tu:
https://web.archive.org/web/20090309161 ... prod04.htm

Image

There's even a few pictures I you hunt around"
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Post by Analog Music » Tue May 23, 2017 11:59 pm

Happy Birthday Dr. Moog and Yes , I think It's worth it !
Seems to me your brilliance is often imitated but never duplicated .
Decades later your frequency is as strong as ever
and me as part of this new generation of synth lovers want to be apart of it
no matter the cost , Thank You

brilanceImage
Image

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Wed May 24, 2017 12:15 am

Analog Music wrote:Happy Birthday Dr. Moog and Yes , I think It's worth it !
Seems to me your brilliance is often imitated but never duplicated .
Decades later your frequency is as strong as ever
and me as part of this new generation of synth lovers want to be apart of it
no matter the cost , Thank You

brilanceImage
Image
:tu:

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