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ES-5 mk3 confusion, is mine broken?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Expert Sleepers  
Author ES-5 mk3 confusion, is mine broken?
ianross
Hey OS and everyone,

I'm pretty lost with the ES-5 expander for my ES-3. Both are the latest revisions.

I'm just trying to get 8 triggers that I can trigger from a midi keyboard out of the ES-5.

issue #1
Some midi notes trigger two outputs instead of just its one respect output. test: plug cable into output 1. Press note 49 and it triggers 48. press note 48 and it triggers output 1 also, but is totally freaking out. million triggers a second. This is a issue particular to output 1. The other midi notes also trigger an adjacent channel.

issue #2 I can't get channel 8 on the ES-5 to light up or do anything. If I turn output 1 up on the SW ES-5 plugin I see the LEDs are starting to light as OS has described in previous threads, but at 255 channels 1-7 are fully lit and 8 does nothing.

OS or any expert, can you steer me right?

I'm on an apollo 8 mk2 and a windows PC in Ableton using the vst instrument.

Note:
further testing and I figured out that trigger 1 in the ES-5 software does nothing. Trigger 2 corresponds to output 1 one on the physical ES-5, trigger to with 3 and so on. So that Trigger 8 in the ES-5 corresponds with output 7. This is obviously why I'm not able to get the physical output 8 to do anything.

Any ideas anyone?
os
Almost certainly you have a non-0dB gain somewhere between the plug-in and the hardware.

E.g. a moved track fader, or a virtual mixer setting on the Apollo, or you've used a mono track instead of a stereo one.
ianross
os wrote:
Almost certainly you have a non-0dB gain somewhere between the plug-in and the hardware.

E.g. a moved track fader, or a virtual mixer setting on the Apollo, or you've used a mono track instead of a stereo one.


Hey OS,

I've read every ES-5 thread in your forum to troubleshoot. I thought the same thing potentially.

I've checked the Apollo mixer settings/fader and Ableton to make sure:
*1 all relevant faders in the UA mixer and Ableton are at 0
*2 i'm using a stereo track (no mono summing) - I can see the ES-5 sending signal out the left side stereo Ableton mixer channel. Adat Channel 8 (right side channel shows nothing as expected since I'm only using expander channel 1
* i'm in 44.1 or 48k
*panning is at 0.

My next step when I get off work is to unplug some modules from the Make Noise 6u power supply.

The fact that when I plug a cable into the ES-5 it changes its behavior worries me. With nothing plugged into the 8 outputs, I can at least get jacks 1-7 to light up. The offset issue where I can't get jack 8 to light up no matter what persists, but at least this much looks ok. If I plug a cable into any of the jacks it changes this behavior so that an adjacent output activates.

Happy to screen share and share the setup via video chat.

I'm up for trying/testing everything. I don't want to return the module until I know for CERTAIN it is the module - and i'm in agreement OS that the likeliness that the module is busted is rare.

Here is everything attached to the 6u Make Noise board:
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/158810

Maybe i'm overloading the 5v? (I know the ES modules don't use 5v). I'm at 1261mA +12V and somewhere between 100-300 5v. It depends on how my Noise Engineering modules are set to draw power.
ianross
Back tracking a second to simplify one of the issues i'm experiencing.

In the ES-5 instrument I set the Gates to the following:
1 Chan 1
1 Base 48

This (I don't understand why) allows a C# to trigger ES-5 output 1. I can see the ES-3 faintly light up also.

As I move up notes, the ES-3 7 LED gets brighter red. When I hit the 7th note (a G note) it lights up blue on the ES-3. The 8th note (a G# note) does nothing on the ES-3 or the ES-5.

I can't get channel 8 on the ES-5 to do anything and the ES-3 output 7 LED does nothing when I hit this G#. Moving the Gate channel number on the ES-5 software does of course shift the midi note correspondence with the output, but no matter what I can't get Output 8 on the ES-5 to do anything.

Turning the output all the way up on channel 1 output lights up only 1-7 on the ES-5. Running loud audio through the ES-5 audio plugin also only lights up 1-7.

I also tried another DAW, Maschine and the behavior is the same. With the only difference that the gate channel number 48 or any number is further offset by one note it seems and i had issues with more than two outputs lighting up even though I was only holding two notes : /

I only care about Ableton Live though.
ianross
Notes that might be helpful:

128 on the ES-5 output 1 pot lights up the 7th Output.

If I put an SW Sync effect on the VST Instrument ES-5 track, I have to put the Clck Output to Gate1/2 to get a clock out of the ES-5 output 1. I'm guess it should be Gates 1/1. Gates 1/8 send a clock to output 7 on the ES-5 and I still can't get Output 8 to do anything.
os
This still feels like a 6dB gain issue.

Are we totally sure the ES-3 is working as expected? Do you have an oscilloscope of any kind? Does a full amplitude sine wave from SW LFO give you a ±10V undistorted sine wave output from the ES-3?
ianross
I have an o'Toole+ so I will scope that later tonight.

I also think it's either an interface/computer issue or an ES-3 issue.

If (and hopefully) the ES-3 is working perfectly, can we move on to some kind of Ableton 9.2/Windows 10 Anniversary/Apollo 8 mk2 bug/adat cable?

os wrote:
This still feels like a 6dB gain issue.

Are we totally sure the ES-3 is working as expected? Do you have an oscilloscope of any kind? Does a full amplitude sine wave from SW LFO give you a ±10V undistorted sine wave output from the ES-3?


The ES-5 seems to be working perfectly except for output 8. No more double firing in Ableton at least.
ianross
Hey OS,

Here's a pic of my o'toole monitoring output 1 on the ES-3 set to an SW LFO with with sine wave at full 1. It looks perfect to me. 10V -/+

What the hell is causing the ES-5 to not recognize its 8th output. Sanity check please.

I'm not doing anything wrong. I know what I'm doing. Something is up. Is it the ES-3? Maybe the ES-5 expansion pins on the ES-3 are messed up?

I'd say maybe it's my PC or my Apollo, but if the ES-3 is working perfectly on its own that doesn't make much sense.

I've tested two ES-5s. Same behavior as far as output 8 not working goes.

os
What does ES-3 output 7 look like on the scope?
ianross
os wrote:
What does ES-3 output 7 look like on the scope?


Do I need to change the ES-5 jumper to free output 7 on the ES-3 in order to check?
os
No.
ianross
Cool OS thanks. I'll try it out tonight. Darn 9-5 : )

I take it that if I'm not using the ES-5 plugin then ES-3 outputs 7 is free to use as usual even though it is still feeding into the ES-5? I recall this because a couple days ago I did try and get an LFO out of output 7 and it lit up outputs 1-7 on the ES-5 (if I remember correctly)

I will do it again tonight and scope it.
ianross
os wrote:
What does ES-3 output 7 look like on the scope?


The sine wave coming out of the ES-3 output 7 looks pretty good. I can see outputs 1-7 on the ES-5 dance along with the sine wave. I can't say if it's a perfect sine wave or not. I occasionally see what could be a slight almost imperceptible glitch in the sine wave, but that could just be the o'toole+ Also the sine wave arguably looks a little flat at the +10v and -10V mark but I imagine that's all normal.

Here's a video:Video of o toole plus monitoring output 7 on ES-3

Here's a picture:
Photo of o tool plus

What's the next step? Is it possible something is wrong with the ES-3? Or could it be the adat cable? I don't have another to try.

Here's the cable I'm using:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004CARB9W/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04 _s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Time zone difference is I think slowing down the process. As far as I can tell everything else is working perfectly except for this bizarre offset between channel selection in the SW software and the ES-5 AND the fact that output 8 on the ES-5 just doesn't do anything.
os
The signal getting to the ES-3 appears to be fine, which rules out any kind of software misconfiguration.

So it's beginning to look like a hardware problem.

Are the modules connected with the provided short ribbon cable?

Have you tried pulling any other modules out to rule out a power issue?
ianross
os wrote:
The signal getting to the ES-3 appears to be fine, which rules out any kind of software misconfiguration.

So it's beginning to look like a hardware problem.

Are the modules connected with the provided short ribbon cable?

Have you tried pulling any other modules out to rule out a power issue?


Hey Os. Yes I pulled out about half my modules from my make noise power supply. Same issue.

I also pulled the ES-3 and ES-5 out of my make noise board case and tried it in a Doepfer PSU-3 (or whatever the model number is) - the new switching one. Same issue.

I'm convinced it's not an ES-5 hardware issue since I've tried 2. So if it's a hardware issue it would have to be the ES-3. This would make sense since when I hit the midi note corresponding with output 8 on the ES-5, the ES-3's output 7 does not light up. As I mentioned earlier.

The expansion cable is plugged in with the red line downward. Because of it's short length I don't even think it's possible to twist it in order to have red line down on one module and up on the other. Therefore I assume I have it plugged in correctly. I do have the ES-5 to the left of the ES-3, but I don't think that changes the way the expansion cable is installed. I also tried an alternate expansion cable so it's not likely a faulty expansion cable.

I may have mentioned earlier I did also try a different jumper setting and I had the same issue.

Any idea what could be wrong if it is the ES-3?

I perused the entire UA Apollo mk2 manual and UA Console manual. There is no way to modify the direct output levels of the ADAT channels in UA's virtual mixer so I don't believe it could be that. The mixer only allows for input level and monitoring adjustments as well as routing and I've made sure nothing is being routed to my adat channels. And as I mentioned, in Ableton I am certain I'm using a stereo channel fader at 0 pan center. I've tried all kinds of DC offset plugins and pan law modifiers also just to test, as well as reducing the gain 6db and thereabouts. No luck. I also read your sticky thread on the Ableton bug and tried the options file. no luck.

I don't believe there are a lot of people using a system like mine which is the Apollo MK2 and a PC because the thunderbolt drivers have only been out for about 4-6 months.
os
Can you find a friend with a different audio interface, if you suspect that's the unusual part of your setup?
ianross
os wrote:
Can you find a friend with a different audio interface, if you suspect that's the unusual part of your setup?


Hey Os,

Ah unfortunately I just moved to New York so I don't know peoples. Anyone living in NYC? : ) Ctrl Mod doesn't have a computer setup.

I don't suspect it's the Apollo 8 mkii at least as far as anything being wrong with it. However, have you had any ES-3/ES-5 success stories with the MKII version? These are the blackface ones. Your device chart only lists two and they were available as MKI versions.
ianross
Any other ideas?
os
Best I can suggest is just to send all the modules over to me.
ianross
os wrote:
Best I can suggest is just to send all the modules over to me.


Hey OS, check my last PM. I have a good update of tests I was able to run, but still no fixes. Let me know if you'd prefer I keep my messages in this thread.
Aziraphale
Hi
I believe I came across a similar problem. ES-3 expanded with ES-5 and ESX-8GT, triggers/gates going nuts, but also small glitches on CV from the ES-3.
I was starting to give up when I noticed that the ADAT plug connected to the ES-3 picked up interference that somehow was transferred to the ES-3. I changed the ADAT cable and everything works fine now.
The cable causing the problem was an ALVA Optical TOSLINK Cable with metal-shell plugs.
ianross
Aziraphale wrote:
Hi
I believe I came across a similar problem. ES-3 expanded with ES-5 and ESX-8GT, triggers/gates going nuts, but also small glitches on CV from the ES-3.
I was starting to give up when I noticed that the ADAT plug connected to the ES-3 picked up interference that somehow was transferred to the ES-3. I changed the ADAT cable and everything works fine now.
The cable causing the problem was an ALVA Optical TOSLINK Cable with metal-shell plugs.


Nothing going nuts for me but i still have the channel offset issue and no output out of the ES-5's Output 8. What cable are you using now?
Aziraphale
ianross wrote:
Aziraphale wrote:
Hi
I believe I came across a similar problem. ES-3 expanded with ES-5 and ESX-8GT, triggers/gates going nuts, but also small glitches on CV from the ES-3.
I was starting to give up when I noticed that the ADAT plug connected to the ES-3 picked up interference that somehow was transferred to the ES-3. I changed the ADAT cable and everything works fine now.
The cable causing the problem was an ALVA Optical TOSLINK Cable with metal-shell plugs.


Nothing going nuts for me but i still have the channel offset issue and no output out of the ES-5's Output 8. What cable are you using now?


Output 8 on the ES-5 is not working in my setup either. I thought it was supposed be like that because I have an ESX-8GT connected to the ES-5. But maybe I’m wrong?

The biggest problem for me were gates and triggers firing of randomly. In your first post, “issue #1” seems a bit like that.

I don’t know the brand of the ADAT cable I’m using right now, but I tried with a standard HOSA cable which worked just fine.
os
All outputs of the ES-5 are supposed to work, no matter what is connected to it.

I'm testing a theory that there is actually an incompatibility between *some* ES-5 mk3 units (not previous versions, just the mk3) when used with an ES-3 mk4 (again, not with an ES-8 or previous ES-3 versions). This will give the symptoms that @ianross describes. Other symptoms, with other combinations of modules, is likely to be something else entirely.

Stand by for news on this.
Aziraphale
os wrote:
All outputs of the ES-5 are supposed to work, no matter what is connected to it.

I'm testing a theory that there is actually an incompatibility between *some* ES-5 mk3 units (not previous versions, just the mk3) when used with an ES-3 mk4 (again, not with an ES-8 or previous ES-3 versions). This will give the symptoms that @ianross describes. Other symptoms, with other combinations of modules, is likely to be something else entirely.

Stand by for news on this.


It’s the ES-5 mk3 and the ES-3 mk4 I’m using. I noticed one thing: When I send gate to output 8 on the ES-5, output 8 on the ESX-8GT lights up.
ianross
os wrote:
All outputs of the ES-5 are supposed to work, no matter what is connected to it.

I'm testing a theory that there is actually an incompatibility between *some* ES-5 mk3 units (not previous versions, just the mk3) when used with an ES-3 mk4 (again, not with an ES-8 or previous ES-3 versions). This will give the symptoms that @ianross describes. Other symptoms, with other combinations of modules, is likely to be something else entirely.

Stand by for news on this.


Thanks OS. Let me know : ) That would certainly explain it!
danpisarcik
ianross wrote:

issue #2 I can't get channel 8 on the ES-5 to light up or do anything. If I turn output 1 up on the SW ES-5 plugin I see the LEDs are starting to light as OS has described in previous threads, but at 255 channels 1-7 are fully lit and 8 does nothing.


os wrote:
All outputs of the ES-5 are supposed to work, no matter what is connected to it.

I'm testing a theory that there is actually an incompatibility between *some* ES-5 mk3 units (not previous versions, just the mk3) when used with an ES-3 mk4 (again, not with an ES-8 or previous ES-3 versions). This will give the symptoms that @ianross describes. Other symptoms, with other combinations of modules, is likely to be something else entirely.


I am also experiencing issue #2 (unable to send signal via gate 8). I am also using a combination of ES-5 mk3 & ES-3 mk4. To feed the ES-3, I am using a MOTU 896HD on Windows.

In Silent Way, when changing the values in 'Outputs', there appears to be an 'off-by-one-bit' behavior. ie. A value of 1 does nothing. value 2 (v2) lights up gate 1 (g1), v4->g2, v8->g3, v16 -> g4, and so on thru v128 -> g7.

Are you actually using 8 bits per sample to drive the gates? If so, could an audio driver or interface, such as this MOTU, zero out the least significant bit in the stream?
os
I can confirm the suspected incompatibility between some ES-5 mk3s and the ES-3 mk4, so this is probably what you're seeing.

The fix is a simple capacitor swap, which anyone with a soldering iron could do. Failing that, you could return it to me or the store where you bought it and we'll sort it out that way.
danpisarcik
os wrote:
The fix is a simple capacitor swap, which anyone with a soldering iron could do.


I can attempt the swap. What needs to be swapped?
os
On the ES-5, C12 should be 56pF.
danpisarcik
os wrote:
On the ES-5, C12 should be 56pF.

Much appreciated. It may be a week or two before I receive capacitors. I will report back later.
danpisarcik
Regrettably, I have reported a false-positive.

After receiving an ES-6 today, I set everything up with the intent of using the expected 7 gates-- all 8 gates were working, as is my esx-8cv.

My apologies. Hopefully my repeat business is some small consolation. =]
ianross
danpisarcik wrote:
Regrettably, I have reported a false-positive.

After receiving an ES-6 today, I set everything up with the intent of using the expected 7 gates-- all 8 gates were working, as is my esx-8cv.

My apologies. Hopefully my repeat business is some small consolation. =]


Are you saying pluggin in the ES-6 fixed it, but without it you experience this issue?
os
That would actually make some sense. The ES-6 is effectively dropping more capacitance on the bus, with the same result as changing that component.
danpisarcik
Quote:
Are you saying pluggin in the ES-6 fixed it, but without it you experience this issue?


os wrote:
That would actually make some sense. The ES-6 is effectively dropping more capacitance on the bus, with the same result as changing that component.


ianross, yes, I have just now confirmed this. The issue is present only when the ES-6 mk2 is disconnected (ie. 7 gates, offset by one).

Once I have both an ES-5 and ES-6 running, I can use all 8 gates as intended.
Vokx
I have a problem quite similar to this: All my gate outputs on my ES-5 are shifted one bit. In SW Sync, I have to select Gates 1/2 to address ES-5 gate output 1, Gates 1/3 to address output 2 etc. up to Gates 1/8 which triggers both outputs 7 and 8 on the ES-5. Checked all my levels and couldn't find anything related to that.

My Setup:

Mac with Ableton Live 9.7.5
Apogee Elements 24
ES-3 Mk4 / ES-6 MK2 / ES-5 MK3

I think I have one of the latest built dates. I had to wait for them for weeks since they were out of stock everywhere and I finally received them a few weeks ago.

So I have the same three devices as danpisarcik, but I still experience the issues.

All CV's and audio work just fine on the ES-3 and ES-6.

Replacing the SMD cap is no problem at all. I only don't know if I have some 56pF on stock. Do you recommend to replace C12 for 56pF anyway and see if it solves my problems?
os
That seems like a good plan.
Vokx
Ok. Thanks.

Now I've looked and I only have 47pF and 68pF lying around. Can I use any of these two values and which one is best? Or does it really have to be 56pF?
os
Capacitor tolerances being what they are, either of those might be fine.
Vokx
Problem solved!

Although it was not the capacitor swap that did the job for me. I swapped C12 for a 47pF, but I checked what the original value was and that one measured 58pF. So it already had the correct value.

What solved the problem was sending the clock data through a stereo output instead of a mono output. First I was sending it to a mono output. Output 15 in my case corresponds to ES-3 channel 7 which corresponds to ES-5 channels 1 to 24. But I had to send it through stereo pair 15 & 16 to solve the shift issue.

Works like a charm! Now I need a second ES-5 love
os
Ah yes, that's a common mistake. Sorry, should've thought to check before you broke out the soldering iron!
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