MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index
 FAQ & Terms of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   Wiggler RadioMW Radio   Muff Wiggler TwitterTwitter   Support the site @ PatreonPatreon 
 SearchSearch   RegisterSign up   Log inLog in 
WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Suggestions on building a vintage Moog modular clone?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> 5U Format Modules Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next [all]
Author Suggestions on building a vintage Moog modular clone?
Sir Ruff
hi all, thinking I'm finally just going to go for it and assemble a small moog modular system with the sole goal of having as much of an early moog sound as possible. I think I've got down all the critical (and expensive) stuff for sound, so other things like attenuators/envelopes I can probably go with cheaper options if available. But whacking together something on Modulargrid, here is what I've got for a 10HP (edit: 10MU-wide) unit:

1 x S-W 901AB oscs
1 (maybe 2?) x S-W 904A
1 x Mos-Lab FFB
2 x M-L 911 envelopes
2 x S-W 902 VCA
1/2 x S-W CP3 mixer (the CPH also looks like a nice option with mults)
1 x S-W 995 attenuator

missing are a case and power supply (I seem to recall M-L stuff needs an adapter for normal dotcom power?)

Any other suggestions/thoughts? There's still a couple U free, but this feels like it will deliver 99% of the basic sound I am after.

here's the MG setup if anyone's interested: "vintage" moog modular seteup
josaka
there is a ton of info on this in the forum.. you might gain more faster by searching around.. many experienced users/builders have had a say.. smile
Sir Ruff
josaka wrote:
there is a ton of info on this in the forum.. you might gain more faster by searching around.. many experienced users/builders have had a say.. smile


Thanks--this setup was based on reading all the previous comments thumbs up

At this point I'm hoping for any final thoughts on the whole system, rather than individual modules per se.
josaka
what I am doing is getting a voice of mos lab .. and keeping many other crazies.. smile
Mark11Audio
Sir Ruff wrote:
hi all, thinking I'm finally just going to go for it and assemble a small moog modular system with the sole goal of having as much of an early moog sound as possible. I think I've got down all the critical (and expensive) stuff for sound, so other things like attenuators/envelopes I can probably go with cheaper options if available. But whacking together something on Modulargrid, here is what I've got for a 10HP wide unit:

1 x S-W 901AB oscs
1 (maybe 2?) x S-W 904A
1 x Mos-Lab FFB
2 x M-L 911 envelopes
2 x S-W 902 VCA
1/2 x S-W CP3 mixer (the CPH also looks like a nice option with mults)
1 x S-W 995 attenuator

missing are a case and power supply (I seem to recall M-L stuff needs an adapter for normal dotcom power?)

Any other suggestions/thoughts? There's still a couple U free, but this feels like it will deliver 99% of the basic sound I am after.

here's the MG setup if anyone's interested: "vintage" moog modular seteup


Based on my own personal experience,

I would hold off getting the Mos-Lab stuff as most of what you have listed in Synth-Werk, the 901ABBB is a set, get [1] 904A, and [2] 911's and only [1] 902 VCA and the SW CP3 for "now." This "set" of modules is exactly 10U wide, and ALL of the same +/-15VDC and will definitely give you that Moog sound you are looking for...

You really do not need an FFB right now, and "if" you were to add any of the Mos-Lab line as you've discovered, you will need to add his buss boards, that either run off of +/-12VDC -OR- the .com adapter Buss Board that will run off of a +/-15VDC but you still don't have any room for it.

Remember SW *only* sells his 901ABBB as a complete voice set, you MUST buy a 901A and [3]901B's... that's how it's listed. Unless you have talked Gerhard into something different.

...... now, with ALL of that being said, BEFORE you pull the trigger and hit that magical BUY button...

Just make sure you've watched all the YouTube video's you can stand, check out EVERYBODY'S product line...

The last thing you want to do, is have a whole bunch of stuff that isn't working for you... make it easy on yourself in the beginning... I think you'll be much happier in the long run...

Cheers, Guinness ftw! Guinness ftw! Guinness ftw!
Mark11Audio
Sir Ruff wrote:
josaka wrote:
there is a ton of info on this in the forum.. you might gain more faster by searching around.. many experienced users/builders have had a say.. smile


Thanks--this setup was based on reading all the previous comments thumbs up

At this point I'm hoping for any final thoughts on the whole system, rather than individual modules per se.


I just realized, what I quoted you was his pre-made System "The Spirit of Trumansburg M1" <<<< click here
wsy
Sir Ruff wrote:
hi all, thinking I'm finally just going to go for it and assemble a small moog modular system with the sole goal of having as much of an early moog sound as possible. I think I've got down all the critical (and expensive) stuff for sound, so other things like attenuators/envelopes I can probably go with cheaper options if available. But whacking together something on Modulargrid, here is what I've got for a 10HP wide unit:

1 x S-W 901AB oscs
1 (maybe 2?) x S-W 904A
1 x Mos-Lab FFB
2 x M-L 911 envelopes
2 x S-W 902 VCA
1/2 x S-W CP3 mixer (the CPH also looks like a nice option with mults)
1 x S-W 995 attenuator

missing are a case and power supply (I seem to recall M-L stuff needs an adapter for normal dotcom power?)

Any other suggestions/thoughts? There's still a couple U free, but this feels like it will deliver 99% of the basic sound I am after.

here's the MG setup if anyone's interested: "vintage" moog modular seteup


I don't now where "Washington CV" is, but have you considered the equivalent Dotcom modules? They might be a lot cheaper, and
they sound pretty good to me (modulo that, when you get right down to it, every "vintage" moog sounded a little different, and they've
all aged differently.)

Another alternative if you have the cash - get a "new" vintage Moog, right from Moog in Asheville. Pricey, but it *will* sound *exactly*
like a moog, because it is one!

- Bill
Ockeghem
You might also consider how exactly you plan to get your sounds out of this system.
By that I mean, are you going to have a sequencer? A keyboard? Another controller? And have you looked at how you might connect a system to what you have already?
It won't play melodies out of the box.
Maybe you have that part covered already, but...I thought I'd mention it.
Mr. Green
Sir Ruff
Mark11Audio wrote:

I just realized, what I quoted you was his pre-made System "The Spirit of Trumansburg M1" <<<< click here


Thanks, yes, it is pretty tempting to just go with that setup. Sure that will provide the basic sound I want. The ABBB oscillator setup is definitely the way to go. And you're probably right about the FFB--I have always associated this with certain filtered sounds on moog records, but it is probably more subtle than I imagine.

wsy wrote:
I don't now where "Washington CV" is, but have you considered the equivalent Dotcom modules?


I'm in DC (gettit? hihi )

From all I've read and heard, the Dotcom stuff is cheap but is i jist dont think is going to do it in terms of that very specific sound. May be good for some utils down the line tho. And at the other extreme, the new Model 15 does of course look amazing, but totally out of my price range.

Ockeghem wrote:
You might also consider how exactly you plan to get your sounds out of this system.


I'm no stranger to CV/Gate--only to the 5U world--so that won't be an issue! thumbs up
Ockeghem
Quote:


I'm no stranger to CV/Gate--only to the 5U world--so that won't be an issue!


Ah, that's good then. Suspected as much, but didn't know.
I know DC area somewhat, but I am located outside the beltway.
cool
sduck
Sir Ruff wrote:

I'm no stranger to CV/Gate--only to the 5U world--so that won't be an issue! thumbs up


Another useful bit of information is that HP's aren't used in the land of 5U - that's strictly a euro convention. I'm guessing that by 10 hp you actually mean 2 rows of 5U stuff.
coyoteous
sduck, et al: HP (horizontal pitch) is .2" and comes from the original Schroff eurorack convention that Doepfer adopted in part (front and module rack/pac, not the industrial grade card/backplane/RF sheildy parts... though you could surely do great synth stuff with that, as I'd imagine some have).

There may be other HP (hp) standards, but this is the only one I've seen (we had a fair amount of gear that used the full spec in optical disc manufacturing [CD/DVD]).

Anyway, as in the other thread, Modular Grid expanded the term to the minimum module width increment for the other modular formats they have, as well... same problem with "U" as other than 1.75" for formats that aren't (though U isn't really a lateral standard that I know other than paults' MOTM... but it is the defacto vertical rack standard, which was big before, but hugenormous now with all the server farms on the planet).

I guess you have to call it something, though... so, I get why people do it, and at some point common usage takes over and it becomes accepted (like truth vs. propaganda, etc.).

Sorry if y'all knew that or if any of it's wrong... it's what I know unless corrected and/or taught otherwise.

(flyin' high on prescribed steroids and other pharmecuticals for an out-of-control allergy/cold/infection... non-viral, but nearly as bad as doozy flus I've had including actual H1N1... see how I also reserve the term flu for actual influenza?)

Getting kind of back on topic here... there was a time when all synthesizers were referred to as mooogs.

Good night, if I can sleep.

Oh, yeah... OP is talking about what I would call ten Moog Units, MU or munits (10 single-width 2.125" modules or multiples of said single-width taking up the same 21.25").
Sir Ruff
coyoteous wrote:
Oh, yeah... OP is talking about what I would call ten Moog Units, MU or munits (10 single-width 2.125" modules or multiples of said single-width taking up the same 21.25").


Thanks for clarifying--this is what I meant! In this case, 10 is sort of an arbitrary width that I chose just based on the medium-sized cases Moog, ML, and SW use.

EDIT: decided to go for the S-W M1 system and just start with that. That will at least give me the functionality of the new minimoog I sold earlier this year but with that older sound. Excited!

I can then shop around for a few other bits like the FFB and maybe some more utils.
Synthoholic
Looks like I came to this conversation late.

So the Moog sound is the following:

1. At least 3 but preferably more 901b oscillators running in parallel.
(901abbb+)
2. 24dB Transistor Ladder Low Pass Filter (904a).
3. A little distortion from a CP Mixer (Cp3), sometimes even run in a series
4. Snappy envelopes (911)
5. A little distortion from the VCA (902)
6. Power supply ripple

Optional:
6. The unique resonant quality which can only be found in the inductor-based Fixed Filter Bank (907, 907a, 914)
7. The eq from the Matrix Mixer (984)

All of these things--the sum of its parts--make the Moog sound traditionally heard on Wendy Carlos, Tangerine Dream, Tomita, Mort Garson, etc.

I notice that you have already seemed to make some decisions but I thought that you might want to take some things into consideration.

What you are running into is I think what we all face when trying to build a synth in the post synthesizers.com world: the lack of support for CP or half sized modules. Roger Arrick is adamantly against them, and as he has done lots to standardize the 5u industry, the CP module tends to suffer. But looking at your modulargrid layout earlier this morning, I notice that you have the same problem that I had which is trying to integrate functions found in CP modules into 1u panels. You chose 10 spaces, but I was trying to stay within traditional sized cabinets. So it's a waste of 1u module space in an 8 or 10u wide cabinet to have to devote that to a mixer module or something like an attenuator. This is where the functionality of the CP modules really make themselves apparent.

A) I notice you have 2 Mixer modules in there. That is great. Put that into a CP format and you gain a mult and gain a 1u space. Get Seb's CP 15 and you get several reversible attenuators and 2 more multiples and that clears up another 1u space previously used by your attenuator panel.

B) In a 10u cabinet a FFB really takes up a tremendous amount of space. Unless you are willing to have multiple cabinets I would consider a different complement of modules. For instance, you probably want to add Synth-Werk's 904b High Pass filter to the lot.

Now we have an 8 space cabinet with a CP row.
Top Row:
901abbb, 904b, 904a.
bottom row _ _ _ _ 911 911 902 902

Now you have 4 spaces to work with.

Consider:
1.Moslab 921 Oscillator. It's a badass LFO. You get all those waves out, waveform clamping, aux osc out.
2. Moslab 923 Noise Filter: White and Pink Noise, and an extra LPF and HPF

Top Row
901abbb, 904b, 904a.
bottom row _ 921, 923, 911, 911, 902, 902

You have a blank space.

This configuration will give you more functionality than a straight up SWM1 and Seb will make you boards for any moslab modules to work off of a dotcom Power Supply, but I'm not sure how Gerhard does his power supplies. He can help you there.

I think Moon has some portable cabinets coming out with a CP row.


Finally, I had zero luck dealing with COTK, so I ordered Gerhard's 914. I really think that there is no way that a FFB without inductors will sound like it and here are two video examples:




Gerhard's FFB is absolutely amazing.

I hope this gives you some stuff to think about.

I modeled my system after the Moog IIIp and 55. Portable cabinets and CP units are forthcoming so this arrangement isn't finalized.

coyoteous
Sir Ruff wrote:
coyoteous wrote:
Oh, yeah... OP is talking about what I would call ten Moog Units, MU or munits (10 single-width 2.125" modules or multiples of said single-width taking up the same 21.25").

Thanks for clarifying--this is what I meant! In this case, 10 is sort of an arbitrary width that I chose just based on the medium-sized cases Moog, ML, and SW use.

EDIT: decided to go for the S-W M1 system and just start with that. That will at least give me the functionality of the new minimoog I sold earlier this year but with that older sound. Excited!

I can then shop around for a few other bits like the FFB and maybe some more utils.

Excellent... congratulations!

Sir Ruff
Synthoholic wrote:

Gerhard's FFB is absolutely amazing.

I hope this gives you some stuff to think about.

I modeled my system after the Moog IIIp and 55. Portable cabinets and CP units are forthcoming so this arrangement isn't finalized.


thanks for all of your thoughts! very helpful and lots to consider. It does make sense to do a bit of mixing and matching in terms of S-W and M-L. For now I will start with that initial M1 set of modules and then decide where to go from there. The only downside to this approach is the wait time involved (I can expect to wait until Oct at this point confused) but it will at least prevent me from going to crazy right off the bat. The "minimoog" clone module complement feels like the right way to start off, especially since I know I will probably keep it wired for that basic sound most of the time. But another VCA and more mixing options will definitely be necessary eventually.

But I do agree that I will probably have to add an FFB down the line. It was standard in all of those early moog setups and so clearly was used to shape the tone we hear. I have read elsewhere on MW arguments for/against the inductor version vs. not, but give the price jump, that may be the ultimate arbiter.

Not quite sure what to do about the half-size modules--as you say, you get a lot squeezed into a small space, but the cases only seem to be available directly from the makers at this point.
Synthoholic
All you can do is ask Gerhard what his plans are about those half-sized modules since he is making cases and selling CP modules.

and Check your pm.
wsy
I can't think of any EE reason why the CP mixer can't be put into a full MU-sized single-width module. Agreed, it's got
weird voltages (asymmetrical ! ) and that may have some of the reason for it's soft and asymmetrical distortion, but that's just
wires; it doesn't matter what the front panel is like.

Am I missing something?

-Bill (who has the Oakley incarnation of the rare Moog noise/dual filter, and likes it a lot!
Dave Peck
wsy wrote:
I can't think of any EE reason why the CP mixer can't be put into a full MU-sized single-width module. Agreed, it's got
weird voltages (asymmetrical ! ) and that may have some of the reason for it's soft and asymmetrical distortion, but that's just
wires; it doesn't matter what the front panel is like.

Am I missing something?

-Bill (who has the Oakley incarnation of the rare Moog noise/dual filter, and likes it a lot!


Nope, you're not missing anything, and in fact it's already been done. It sounds great! Especially the inverted output when the input channels are overdriven juuuust enough.

http://stgsoundlabs.com/products/mixer_mu.htm
Synthoholic
wsy wrote:
I can't think of any EE reason why the CP mixer can't be put into a full MU-sized single-width module.


It's not just the mixer, you get a mult also and in Mos-lab's case, it cuts down on excessive patching by wiring it directly to oscillators.

The idea is not wasting 1u on a mixer and 1u on attenuators in traditional case widths, but it solves one problem and creates another because many cases don't deal with the cp modules.

If synthesizers.com made cp cases that would solve everything, but he doesn't like the cp modules.
ranix
CP modules are a pain in the ass to be honest. I like the Moon CP modules, but they would be better in 5u
coyoteous
Yeah, but a cool pain in the ass... wait, that didn't come out right (nor did that... never mind that track).

I'm working on my first CP rack row with two of the Moon four MU-space wide CP modules and will just burn the extra 3.125" at the bottom for now... the open space will make kind of a little "garage" at the bottom of one of my freestanding 20U high table racks (might come up with some kind utility panel to put there in the future, or not).

Not to go on about all that, especially without diagrams or images... but, if this works out, I might have to make another for coolness and symmetry.

My take on CP was that I was fine without, but they do come up secondhand which is how I get most of my gear... so, I wanted to be able to incorporate them in my system if a good deal came up.

Well, two good CP deals came up and I took the dive... I like the Moog historical nod angle a lot, too.
KSS
Responding to the last few posts since WSY's CP3 mixer comment

The CP is part of what an excellent comment in another recent thread called the moog experience. Which encompasses more than just the sound. And may also influence the sound more than you think due to patching choices made easier, more obvious, or easier to manipulate once patched.

Panel layout and module arrangement in a modular synth *does* become part of the sound. Having a mixer horizontally under OSCs *is* different from having another 1U mixer next to them. Or underneath one--or 1/2 of one of them.

No matter how many people try to say this doesn't matter, it does. Not to everyone, and that's okay. To say the sound is behind the panel is to miss the best parts of modular.

If it weren't so we wouldn't need modules as everyone could just get the same layout of modules in one large panel. But no. Unless you're STS Serge. We move modules around and even choose formats based as much on layout as sound.
KSS
This fact is seen in both the old polyfusion which was designed as an improved moog by ex moog employess, and in the ever more popular 1U "Tiles" of Eurorack. Having a console or utility row under major rows is a need which has been seen and addressed over and over.
KSS
In the Spirit of Trumansburg pic above, one quickly sees how much difference that albeit beautiful CP3 mixer is going to make in actual use compared to its horizontal CP grandfather. Not only the patchcords so close to the knobs-which I personally find okay, but still accept as more limiting than without. But also the way the cords will overlay these knobs as the patch develops.
Compare that with the moog Console Panel rows. Knobs a good distance from the jacks. Mixer close to operator and less likely to be made inaccessible by patch clutter.
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> 5U Format Modules Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next [all]
Page 1 of 3
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group