Transpose Utility Module - who can handle pitch transpose?

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youkon
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Post by youkon » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:33 pm

did actually anyone already mention the A-185-2?

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I use this in front of every oscillator!
http://www.doepfer.de/a1852.htm

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Post by aroom » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:01 pm

youkon wrote:did actually anyone already mention the A-185-2?
Yes :party:

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Post by av500 » Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:28 am

the A-185-2 as currently exiting suffers from two issues that make it way less precision than what the name suggests. Doepfer have fixed both of them and will update the units in the future. I don't know if that will be a model name change or a running change in production

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Post by kay_k » Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:54 am

Thanks Aroom again! I'm happy you like it.


So I already got a few people that badly want that modded module too.
I have to say this a 1cm wide PCB with 0603 resistors and TSSOP Opamps.
Modding it is theoretically very easy but making that mod so that the wire stays in place and then sell it to people makes my hands sweaty.
I will add the necessary footprints on the PCB or maybe even a jumper (again 1cm wide, I first have to find a place for 4 jumpers)
I still have PCBs from the previous "production" run that I don't want to go to waste.

Lets put it that way: if I get 5 raised hands I will make the PCB changes now and order it right away. Including a specific panel. (I want one myself :hihi: )
If it is only the people who wrote me then they will get what Aroom got, i.e. PCB with 4 wires on it and a black unmarked panel which they can mark themselfes.

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Post by SlyFrank » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:59 pm

kay_k wrote:Lets put it that way: if I get 5 raised hands I will make the PCB changes now and order it right away. Including a specific panel. (I want one myself :hihi: )
If it is only the people who wrote me then they will get what Aroom got, i.e. PCB with 4 wires on it and a black unmarked panel which they can mark themselfes.
C'mon, folks. This is such a simple (and necessary), yet currently unavailable transpose module. Raise your hands :rock:

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Post by gimber » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:11 pm

SlyFrank wrote:
C'mon, folks. This is such a simple (and necessary), yet currently unavailable transpose module. Raise your hands :rock:
SlyFrank, are you sure you only need one? I'm thinking about going in for two... :hihi:

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Post by SlyFrank » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:15 pm

gimber wrote:
SlyFrank wrote:
C'mon, folks. This is such a simple (and necessary), yet currently unavailable transpose module. Raise your hands :rock:
SlyFrank, are you sure you only need one? I'm thinking about going in for two... :hihi:
Oh yes! I made it clear to kay_k that I am in for 2. I want 4 voices minimum able to be transposed at the same time. This module allows for chaining, due to the T buffered out, which is brilliant 8-)

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Post by gimber » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:25 pm

:sb:

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kay_k
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Post by kay_k » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:18 pm

OK - I changed the layout. I'm using solder bridges as jumpers now.
At work I'd use 0402 zero ohm resistors for such things (or in this case just use those 100k resistors wth alternative landing points). I thought for a normal person soldering 0603 or 0402 isn't a fun task so I've made those broken pads which should be fairly easy to bridge or break with a home use soldering iron.
I'm going to send the module out in the requested config, but you guys can decide that you might want the other after all and change it down the road.
I'm calling the alternative config the "Aroom Config" - I hope he is happy with that :mrgreen:

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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:24 pm

av500 wrote:
mskala wrote:If this is becoming a "post your transposition modules that people can't actually have yet" thread, maybe I can sneak in this one. Currently held up waiting for the panels, I'm still busy writing the manual, and I have a store opening and another module to start selling before this one will work its way to the front of the queue... but it is in the queue, and I've got a batch of them half-built on my workbench right now.
then let me add mine as well :)

it's single channel only, but then it's only 4hp. it's called T43 because it can add or sub up to 43 halftones or ~3.5 octaves in addition to adding input B and adding or subtracting input C if needed.

prototypes haven been built and are being used/tested as we speak

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/vpme-de-t43
Can I get one of these ready-made?
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Post by desolationjones » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:08 pm

kay_k wrote:Lets put it that way: if I get 5 raised hands I will make the PCB changes now and order it right away. Including a specific panel.
kay_k, I sent an email to info -at- leipzigwest -dot- org but I will echo my interest here so you can count me towards the 5 raised hands! :nana:

The only module I have which can transpose three voices is the WMD Sequential Switch Matrix. It's not on the front page list, but this is probably one of the best transpose modules out there due to the ability to self-patch as a DAC + adder, plus you can step through patterns!

But the SSM is 16HP and kay's module could accomplish much of this in 2HP :hail:

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Post by aroom » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:40 am

kay_k wrote: I'm calling the alternative config the "Aroom Config" - I hope he is happy with that :mrgreen:
Yeah! :banana:

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Post by kay_k » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:04 am

desolationjones wrote:
kay_k wrote:Lets put it that way: if I get 5 raised hands I will make the PCB changes now and order it right away. Including a specific panel.
kay_k, I sent an email to info -at- leipzigwest -dot- org but I will echo my interest here so you can count me towards the 5 raised hands! :nana:

The only module I have which can transpose three voices is the WMD Sequential Switch Matrix. It's not on the front page list, but this is probably one of the best transpose modules out there due to the ability to self-patch as a DAC + adder, plus you can step through patterns!

But the SSM is 16HP and kay's module could accomplish much of this in 2HP :hail:
counted! we officially reached five.

thanks!

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Post by kay_k » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:42 am

So, PCBs and panels are in production. All the parts are here already except for the jacks from Thonk which should come tomorrow.
When I'm back from my vacations in 14 days everything should be delivered and I can start placing parts and sending stuff to you.
:guinness:

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Post by Graham Hinton » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:05 pm

All our --Mix series of modules are optimised for pitch accurate summing with resistors matched to better than 0.05% and 25 turn calibration trimmers.
I expect to be able to add multiple pitch CVs and route various combinations of them to multiple destinations as standard and not to have to get a "special" module to do that.

If you have to chain adders the errors in gain and offset accumulate, it is better to be able to do it all in one go. The concept behind SwitchMix and PinMix is to be able to compensate for less than ideal external sources and destinations (which many are) so that all summing done in the matrix is at exactly 1V/oct. Different sources may be combined and changed around even if the VCOs don't track perfectly as the individual summed outputs may be fine adjusted.

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Post by VZvision » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:15 pm

Am currently really into using a WMD SSM combined with an Monome ARC/Ansible in levels mode to get some amazing control over transposition.

I will caveat this with saying its an exotic and expensive way to get transposing, but it's unbelievably flexible in terms of its implementation.

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Post by kay_k » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:54 pm

Graham Hinton wrote:All our --Mix series of modules are optimised for pitch accurate summing with resistors matched to better than 0.05% and 25 turn calibration trimmers.
I expect to be able to add multiple pitch CVs and route various combinations of them to multiple destinations as standard and not to have to get a "special" module to do that.

If you have to chain adders the errors in gain and offset accumulate, it is better to be able to do it all in one go. The concept behind SwitchMix and PinMix is to be able to compensate for less than ideal external sources and destinations (which many are) so that all summing done in the matrix is at exactly 1V/oct. Different sources may be combined and changed around even if the VCOs don't track perfectly as the individual summed outputs may be fine adjusted.
Your SwitchMix is an awesome product I'd love to own!!

You miss the point tho, the OP wanted a really small module for this limited task of transposing a few voices with one master cv.

The last weeks I've been thinking a lot about all of this and two things came to my mind. First - I should try and keep the sequences in lower octaves and rather use the tuning of the VCOs to get higher. which should help with gain errors.
Second a little error is why we use this really old way of doing things. otherwise all our VCOs were digital with a MIDI input :D
I use 0.05% resistors for all resistors of our WK1 and with the quantities I produce this makes the second most expensive part of the module after the panel. I'd argue that is about good enough for the cause and also the price I ask.

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Post by drinkcorpsevomit » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:28 pm

VZvision wrote:Am currently really into using a WMD SSM combined with an Monome ARC/Ansible in levels mode to get some amazing control over transposition.

I will caveat this with saying its an exotic and expensive way to get transposing, but it's unbelievably flexible in terms of its implementation.
Care to go into any more details what you are doing here? I'm a big Monome levels convert and have a SSM too. Any pointers?

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Post by gimber » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:31 pm

kay_k wrote: When I'm back from my vacations in 14 days everything should be delivered and I can start placing parts and sending stuff to you.
:guinness:
:banana: can't wait!

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Post by VZvision » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:52 pm

drinkcorpsevomit wrote:
VZvision wrote:Am currently really into using a WMD SSM combined with an Monome ARC/Ansible in levels mode to get some amazing control over transposition.

I will caveat this with saying its an exotic and expensive way to get transposing, but it's unbelievably flexible in terms of its implementation.
Care to go into any more details what you are doing here? I'm a big Monome levels convert and have a SSM too. Any pointers?
For sure. Simplest patch would be a Quantized CV source (usually a CV sequence but sometimes a S&H into a Quantizer) into one of the inputs on the SSM. An Output from Ansible to input 2 of the SSM. Output of SSM into VCO 1V/oct. Set quantization scale on Ansible levels to match the quantization scale coming from your sequencer for transposition within the sequencer's scale (i.e. if your sequence is quantized to a harmonic minor, set the Ansible to the same quantization scale using the pre-set scales). Activate transpose of sequence by adjusting SSM Matrix and Arc CV level to taste.

From here there's a few additions/twists you can make:

1. Another 2 CV sequences into the remaining inputs of the SSM...then the one ring of the Ansible is available to transpose the three CV sequences all at once or one at a time etc.

2. Another CV sequence and another Arc/Ansible CV output into SSM so now you have two CV sequences that can swap transpositions depending on your Arc settings

3. Outputs 2, 3, and 4 into more VCO's so that they can swap the sequencer/transpose network you set up in 1 & 2.

4. Clocking transposition via Arc/Ansible levels patterns.

5. Clocking the swapping of transposition and CV sequences via SSM matrices.

The linchpin that makes this work is the precision resistors on the SSM similar but I don't think identical to the Doepfer precision addder

Wiggler hard and hope that helps.

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Post by Graham Hinton » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:59 am

kay_k wrote:You miss the point tho, the OP wanted a really small module for this limited task of transposing a few voices with one master cv.
No, I'm pointing out that what someone thinks they want and what they really need are two different things.
Second a little error is why we use this really old way of doing things. otherwise all our VCOs were digital with a MIDI input :D
No, neither statement is true. The Minimoog had highly selected resistors to achieve its tracking of multiple CVs to the VCOs.
I use 0.05% resistors for all resistors of our WK1 and with the quantities I produce this makes the second most expensive part of the module after the panel.
Buying 0.05% resistors is expensive because you are paying for someone else to test and select them. If you do this yourself it is a lot cheaper, that is what Moog did.

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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:03 pm

Graham Hinton wrote:No, I'm pointing out that what someone thinks they want and what they really need are two different things.
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Post by kay_k » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:21 pm

Graham Hinton wrote: Buying 0.05% resistors is expensive because you are paying for someone else to test and select them. If you do this yourself it is a lot cheaper, that is what Moog did.
yeah, but I have neither the time nor the equipment to do that myself in the moment. also with 0603 I believe my measurements will be really shitty anyway.

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Post by frankbuss » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:16 pm

A slightly modified idea for my deluxe version:

Image

The idea is that with the new 0 position of the range switch, it is possible to create an exact output voltage of -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2 and 3 V with the switches on the right, otherwise the pot value will be added to the switch values. Special cases, like individually adding signals to each output, can be done with patch cables (and maybe some external splitters, if you don't use stackable cables). But each function can be used separately as well, like if you need 5 separate adders, or just the precision buffered CV generator.

I'm still modifying and optimizing the schematic, currently I'm at 7 quad-OpAmps, drawn with a handful of hierarchical schematics (nice feature of KiCad), because it is too big and complicated for one sheet, and lots and lots of precision resistors. Might get more expensive than expected, but there is a reason it is the deluxe version :headbang:

I also bought a new toy to ensure that it is at least 1 mV accurate as promised. I can measure 0.1 mV with it, for a +/-5 V full scale voltage:

Image

The test in the image was done with a voltage test source from voltagestandard.com , they make really nice devices. I think the voltage is accurate, because the Fluke was recently calibrated and it is unlikely that the Fluke and the voltage standard both have the same error. And it has a GPIB interface which works in Linux, so I can write some Python scripts to create characteristics curves over the entire input and output range and test the accuracy.

The Fluke can also measure resistance with 1 milliohm resolution, in the 200 ohm range, and has 5 digits for the higher ranges as well. This means I could select the 0.1% resistors, too, but I don't know if it is worth the additional work, will do some more tests.

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Post by kay_k » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:39 am

frankbuss wrote: The Fluke can also measure resistance with 1 milliohm resolution, in the 200 ohm range, and has 5 digits for the higher ranges as well. This means I could select the 0.1% resistors, too, but I don't know if it is worth the additional work, will do some more tests.
I think selecting your resistors would be better with some sort of well adjusted wheatstone bridge than trusting on the last digit of the multimeter.
Our module needs about 20 precise resistors. I use 0603, which is brutally fiddly to measure with those avarage probe tipps. I rather spent the price (about 4x from 0.1% to 0.05%) and let some trained professionals (a.k.a. a production robot) do that for me.
Last edited by kay_k on Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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