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Transpose Utility Module - who can handle pitch transpose?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules  
Author Transpose Utility Module - who can handle pitch transpose?
aroom
I know that they are already some threads about pitch transpose, but let's have a fresh start.

in a short list those module can handle pitch transpose :

- Leipzig West "Transpose Master" (WK1 Aroom mod) - 2hp - can transpose 3 voices in 2hp and can be chained (2 modules = 6 voices in 4hp) - tested
- Leipzig West WK1 - 2 hp - tested
- Expert Sleepers Disting - 4 hp - tested
- Mutable Instruments Links - middle section (2:2) - 4 hp tested
- Ladik M-100 Unity mixer w. transpose - 4 hp
- Ladik Q-010 Easy Quantizer - 4 hp
- Seismic Industries PAMT - 4 hp
- Doepfer A-185-2 Precision Adder/Bus Access - 6 hp
- Mutable Instruments Shades - 6 hp
- CG Products Add1 - 6 hp
- ALM Beast's Chalkboard - 6 hp
- Toppobrillo Quantimator - 8 hp
- North Coast Synthesis MSK 008 Dual VC Octave Switch - 8 hp
- Frequency Central Trans-Europa - 10 hp
- Analogue Systems Octave Controller - 12 hp
- Ornament & Crime - 14 hp
- Rabid Elephant Knobs - 14 hp
- Instruo Chord Quantizer Harmonaig - 18 hp
- etc...


Unfortunately they only mostly handle one voice, or take too much hp. In a world where you can get 8 quantised sequences in a single module like the Malekko Votage Block, but can't transpose any of them, it's a pity that none of those modules can't transpose more than one sequence.

They could be some unity mixers out there that are precise enough to handle pitch, but I don't know them, and searching the answer in the existing thread didn't helped me.


I really wish that someone could design a 2hp utility module who could help me transpose more than one voice. let say something like this:


input 0 : cv signal to add/sum

input 1 : cv signal from sequencer or anything else
input 2 : cv signal from sequencer or anything else
input 3 : cv signal from sequencer or anything else


output 1 : input 0 + input 1
output 2 : input 0 + input 2
output 3 : input 0 + input 3

output 4 : input 0 solo (buffered copy)


You could add a pot to offset the input 0, to get octave or semi-tone transpose.


What do you think about this idea ? Is there any modules out there who can do this ?


edit: updated the list of modules

EDIT : Leipzig West is now building the module I was looking for. I added it on the top of the list. Contact him if you're interested. Or get it from a dealer.
Dcramer
Yup, it's true that there isn't much in the way of current modules that can transpose multiple voices at the same time, but there's lots of ways to to do it with individual modules. Which is really the nature of modular. thumbs up
I use the Ladik keyboard, patched into a sequencer's transpose input, or summed in a unity mixer, or patched into another input on an Osc.
A second quantizer can do this as well. w00t
Groundloop
@Dcramer, do you have the K-011 expander as well? I recently got a 2hp Tune and have been looking for a module to transpose it, ideally under CV control. At first glance that Ladik pair looks perfect.
snakehead
There's another thread about the Instruo chord quantizer Harmonaig that is looking very interesting to me. It transposes and shifts inversions of chords diatonically and other ways. This is something I'm concerned with too as I expand my rack---I was wondering if Intellijel Shifty would be useful in this regard too.
MindMachine
Doesn't really do what your ideal is, but worth a mention:

Analog Systems Octave Controller

https://www.bigcitymusic.com/collections/analogue-systems/products/rs4 20-octave-controller

aroom
Dcramer wrote:
I use the Ladik keyboard, patched into a sequencer's transpose input, or summed in a unity mixer, or patched into another input on an Osc.


which unity mixer do you use ? from what I've read about Intellijel's Unity Mixer, it can't handle pitch or wasn't design with this in mind (using 0.1% tolerance resistors). what about Malekko's?


It would be perfect to find a simple 2hp Unity Mixer designed with 0.1% tolerance resistors.
R.U.Nuts
I could be totally wrong but as far as I know a lot of analog VCOs have an exponential FM CV input that tracks 1V/oct if you crank up the expo FM attenuator. If that applies to your VCOs you could plug the transposition CV straight into your VCOs. The only additional module you'd need then would be an active multiple to distribute your main sequence to all your VCOs.
Timmy
The Quantermain app in Ornament & Crime can do exactly what the OP seeks (if I understand the requirements correctly). Set the CV source of all four channels to the CV1 input, and the CV aux setting for channels B, C & D to transpose. It can do that for unquantised voltages, for voltages quantised to semitones, or voltage quantised to one of 128 different scales, or 4 user-defined scales, all with note masks if you want. For details see http://ornament-and-cri.me/user-manual-v1_3_beta/#anchor-quantermain
aroom
R.U.Nuts wrote:
I could be totally wrong but as far as I know a lot of analog VCOs have an exponential FM CV input that tracks 1V/oct if you crank up the expo FM attenuator. If that applies to your VCOs you could plug the transposition CV straight into your VCOs. The only additional module you'd need then would be an active multiple to distribute your main sequence to all your VCOs.



that's a good tip. thanks.



Timmy wrote:
The Quantermain app in Ornament & Crime can do exactly what the OP seeks. Set the CV source of all four channels to the CV1 input, and the CV aux setting for channels B, C & D to transpose. For details see http://ornament-and-cri.me/user-manual-v1_3_beta/#anchor-quantermain


yeah, that's awesome. but I'm sure that if I get an O_C I would like to use it for something more complex than just a precision adder.

but who knows, could worth the hp's.
Timmy
aroom wrote:
yeah, that's awesome. but I'm sure that if I get an O_C I would like to use it for something more complex than just a precision adder.

but who knows, could worth the hp's.


Well, it's not like you're locked in to it only doing one thing - with a press and twiddle of the encoder, it can be something entirely different if you want.
aroom
I added the Leipzig West WK1 (2 hp) who looks promising. The manufacturer didn't knew how precise it was and he's gonna mesure that on the next batch.

Check him out, he got some good modules going on :

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/other-unknown-plagwitz
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/other-unknown-wk1
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/other-unknown-wk3-midi-thru
grep
ALM Beast's Chalkboard is missing from your list.
aroom
grep wrote:
ALM Beast's Chalkboard is missing from your list.


yep. did you try it with CV ? I've read on the Beast's Chalkboard thread that many users were experiencing some troubles using it, like a drop in the CV while patching it or so.
grep
No experience with it.
frankbuss
aroom wrote:

input 0 : cv signal to add/sum

input 1 : cv signal from sequencer or anything else
input 2 : cv signal from sequencer or anything else
input 3 : cv signal from sequencer or anything else


output 1 : input 0 + input 1
output 2 : input 0 + input 2
output 3 : input 0 + input 3


You could add a pot to offset the input 0, to get octave or semi-tone transpose.


What do you think about this idea ? Is there any modules out there who can do this ?


I'm new to modular design, but this looks like a simple project to learn more about it. Attached is a first try I did in KiCAD. The board could look somewhat like this (couldn't find nice images for the CV jacks, this will look different in reality) :



Current board size is 191 mm x 35 mm. I designed the offset pot in a way that you can add and subtract an offset. Could be useful as well without the input 0 signal, but then I need to add a termination to the inputs, currently the input impedance is very high, which would cause noise if not connected. What input impedance is usually used for these modules for CV inputs?

For the sum circuits I used the OPA4180 quad op-amp. This has a very low offset (75 uV max) and zero-drift (0.1 uV/°C). I buffer all inputs, so you need 3 of it.One costs EUR 3.4, see https://www.digikey.de/short/3vtv59 . The 10k resistors have to be very precise for summing everything exactly with the same weight of 1 (by adding some more pots you could change the weighting). +/-0.1% and +/-50 ppm/°C should be fine, costs 0.31 EUR, : https://www.digikey.de/short/3v3tqt .

All inputs and outputs are protected with extra diodes for ESD events. The series resistors at the output for this protection results in an output imdeance of 2 kohm. What is usually used as the CV output impedance?

The 6.35 mm jacks are expensive, I could only find one for EUR 2.52, https://www.digikey.de/short/3vt0n5 which can be soldered directly to the board and mounted on a panel. Or is 3.5 mm possible, too? Could be really small then.

What range is the CV? I assumed +/-10V (negative CV for inputs 1-3, and subtract if input 0 is negative, is possible, too) and a power supply of +/-15V and GND. What power supply connection and voltage is usually used for such modules?

I guess all parts would cost less than EUR 40, including the board. Then add a panel and a case, and it could be a useful product.
aroom
Wow that's amazing what you've done! I'm impressed and grateful that you took such an interest on this idea.

I can't answer your technical question about electronics cause I've no idea how to built a module. But maybe someone could or we can take this thread on the DIY section.

I've got some remarks tho :

- you could check the schematics from Mutable Instruments Links here : https://mutable-instruments.net/modules/links/downloads/Links-v40.pdf The 2 to 2 section works well as an adder

- you should consider to put the PCB "sideways" so you could get all the mini jack and offset in only 2hp


I made a similar thread on Mutable's own forum : https://forum.mutable-instruments.net/t/transposing-vcos-using-multipl e-sources/12670/2?u=aroom

Maybe you could also post your design there.

w00t
frankbuss
aroom wrote:

- you could check the schematics from Mutable Instruments Links here : https://mutable-instruments.net/modules/links/downloads/Links-v40.pdf The 2 to 2 section works well as an adder


Thanks, that's interesting. The TL072 for the 2 to 2 module has a very bad max offset voltage of 10 mV. This means with the usual 1 V per octave (if you use it for pitch) for example with 1000 Hz, there could be an error of up to 7 Hz after one op-amp stage. But the other op-amp in this circuit, the OP4171, looks nice. Very similar to the OPA4180 which I found, but more output current, and the offset voltage is max 1.8 mV, compared to 75 uV of the OPA4180. This would be an error of about 1 Hz for 1000 Hz, should be ok, if the TL072 is already ok hihi And the OPA4171 is a bit cheaper than the OPA4180, and has 4 kV input protection instead of 1 kV, so the input protection might not be needed.

The circuit shows 51 ohm output impedance. This means I could use a 100 k input impedance, as used in the 2 to 2 module, and would not need an extra input buffer. For unconnected inputs there is a 10 meg termination, which should work to avoid any noise. I guess this could be done now all for maybe EUR 30, I will change the circuit tomorrow.

Quote:

- you should consider to put the PCB "sideways" so you could get all the mini jack and offset in only 2hp


What jacks do these modules usually use? Mini jack sounds like 3.5 mm, not the bigger 6.35 mm connectors?

And looks like the usual power supply is +/-12V for the mutable-instruments modules, and +/-5V for the CV range. If these are the usual values, I can change my circuit accordingly (only the voltage regulators for the offset potentiometer, it would still work with both, +/-12V or +/-15V).
pichenettes
If I may suggest something:

Your initial circuit wouldn't have worked well, because it has a very high output impedance (2k), which would have introduced a 0.98 gain coefficient when patching the output to the typical Eurorack input - which has a 100k impedance. The solution for that is to either lower the output impedance (as low as you can go without risking to damage something when you mistakenly connect an output to another output) - what I did on Links because it made the PCB routing easier - or to put the output current limiting resistor in the loop (check Shades' schematics), which is what I'd to here if the goal is precision.

The typical Eurorack input impedance is 100k. It's a kind of implicit standard.

Transposition up/down 10 octave is quite a wild range. If you want to provide a manual transposition pot, maybe narrow it to +/- 2V.

Bipolar audio and CVs are usually +/- 5V, unipolar CVs and logic signals are +5V, +8V or +10V depending on the brand.
frankbuss
Thanks, I'll use the 51 ohm output resistance. In the Mutable Instruments circuit, the resistor is not in the feedback loop, but if the usual input impedance is 100 k, the error would be minimal (less than 0.1%) and it gives a bit more protection, if the op-amp input is not directly connected to the output connector. And the resistor gives a bit of protection for the output, but the op-amp itself is protected against short-circuits indefinitely anyway. So should be ok with the resistor, even when two outputs are connected together.

Good idea to limit the offset to +/-2V, because this would result in a better resolution as well for this range. I could use trim-pots and an adjustable voltage regulator like LM317/LM337, if the user wants to change the range, which would even allow to reduce it to +/-1.2V minimum, or other users might want +/-5V, and with a factory default of +/-2V (in case I manufacture it).
frankbuss
I modified the schematic:

- I think the OPA4180 are better than the OP4171, because the offset voltage is lower, which means higher accuracy
- for the output resistor, I used 1 k to protect the ouput, which means even when shorted or two outputs are connected together, the OpAmp doesn't even get warm. But I connected the feedback after the resistor, to eliminate the output resistor completely, for highest accuracy
- assuming 100 k input impedance, I could simplify the input buffer stages
- for the supply for the offset potentiometer, I used a precision voltage reference (ADR03, 0.1% accurate, 3 ppm/°C, low noise 10 uV). Now the range is for the potentiometer is from -2.5V to +2.5V
- I added a null switch for offset, to set the offset to 0 V, because it might be difficult to hit exactly 0 with the offset potentiometer, or you might want to check the 0 offset temporary, without changing the potentiometer
- the 3rd pin for the input jacks are connected to ground, which means when no cable is plugged in, the offset voltage input is at 0 V for this input

I don't know if 2 hp is a good idea, it is really small. If I use 4 hp, I would have some more space for the potentiometer and the switch, and I can get a blank front panel for cheap from here.
pichenettes
Possible bugs:

* When the offset pot is set to the maximum and minimum, SW1 will short U2A (or U2B)'s output to ground.

* You might need a cap between the output of your op-amp and V- - otherwise you might get overshoot when driving long lengths of cable.

* When patching a cable into input 1, 2, or 3, R3, R4 or R5 will be temporarily disconnected from ground before being connected to the external voltage source - causing the output voltage to temporarily jump by a factor or 2. Same issue when plugging something in/out of input 0. I've never been a big fan of this kind of non-inverting summing circuits!
stin-g
This thread has evolved considerably but I feel as though the Toppobrillo Quantimator should have been in the initial list.
http://www.toppobrillo.com/quantimator.html
frankbuss
pichenettes wrote:
Possible bugs:

* When the offset pot is set to the maximum and minimum, SW1 will short U2A (or U2B)'s output to ground.

* You might need a cap between the output of your op-amp and V- - otherwise you might get overshoot when driving long lengths of cable.

* When patching a cable into input 1, 2, or 3, R3, R4 or R5 will be temporarily disconnected from ground before being connected to the external voltage source - causing the output voltage to temporarily jump by a factor or 2. Same issue when plugging something in/out of input 0. I've never been a big fan of this kind of non-inverting summing circuits!


Thanks, I might have smelled the short problem when testing it hihi Attached is a fixed version, and with the additional capacitors.

I don't think it is a problem that the signal jumps when patching it, because it would be only for a very short time, probably not distinguishable from the other noise and clicks that could happen when you connect or disconnect a cable.

And maybe I should use 2 hp, because space is always precious in your rack, and it might not need more. Does anyone know where I can buy a standard 2 hp Eurorack blank panel?

Just in case I want to produce and sell such modules later commercially, where can I order good custom made panels with drills and labeling?
aroom
stin-g done

frankbuss I can't help you with your design, because my skills in electronic are really limited. Thankfully, Pichenette is here helping, and he is a really really good designer.


IMO this module shouldn't be bigger than 2 HP, because 2 HP is large enough to accommodate 7 mini-jack sockets and a pot. The pot itself won't be wiggled as much as a filter cutoff, so a small one should be ok. And you won't have to access it that much. HP are really expansive in euroland.


pichenettes thanks for helping, realy appreciated




full disclosure, Kay from Leipzig West, who's designing the WK1 (https://www.modulargrid.net/e/other-unknown-wk1) offered me to mod it to get something similar - maybe even better - that what I was looking for in my initial post. By cutting some traces on his own designed PCB + soldering some wire, he could end up with something like this :



inputs :

T
1
2
3

outputs :

T (buffered)
T+1
T+2
T+3


initially the WK1 is an 3-to-1 bufferer mixer normaled to the 1-to-3 buffered multiple. he's using 0.05% tolerance resistor and tried using is adder for pitch transpose on a braid with clear success.

I think that the pot transpose function may not be necessary in such a module. I does make sense when you have only one voice to transpose, but with 3 different voices, I don't know. In the other hand, a copy of the transpose signal might be really handy.
aroom
dbl
frankbuss
A new version is attached. I could very much simplify the potentiometer OpAmp circuit for the offset with some tricks, so now in theory it would work with just one quad OpAmp, instead of 2.

But I still used a second quad OpAmp to buffer all inputs, which gives the module a very high input impedance, and I added some capacitors and resistors for ESD protection and as a low-pass filter for very high frequencies (mobile phone noise etc.). Because of the input buffer, I could reduce the resistors for the sum OpAmps (all 10 k and 5 k instead of 100 k), without sacrificing the input impedance at the jacks, which reduces noise, because the OpAmps have bipolar inputs and not FET inputs, and which reduces resistor noise.

I think now it is time to build and test it.
FUUUCCKKKK!!!
pichenettes
Looks good to me, though you might use 10k/20k (E24) instead of 5k/10k in your last stage, or maybe build your 5k with two 10k in parallel, because there aren't many choices of 5k resistors with ultra low tolerances (if a 1.8 mV offset is a nuisance to you, 0.1% or even 0.05% won't be good enough for the resistors).
frankbuss
Right, looks like 5k with 0.05% costs EUR 3.75 at Digikey (0805), but I can 10k with this accuracy for EUR 0.69, so 2 x 10k in parallel is it then. This gets still expensive, EUR 11 for 18 resistors which needs to be accurate, maybe I'll try it with 0.1% first, they cost only half.

How much accuracy do similar modules have? 1 mV sounds very good, but I can't find detailed datasheets for other modules, like accuracy, frequency Bode-plots, linearity curves etc. (I have some industrial electronics design background, where this is standard).
kay_k
thanks Aroom for the shout outs!
and while there is a chance you read this: thanks Olivier for your crazy crazy crazy good shit. AND for making it open source!

the mod for Aroom is done and works. well my very non-musical ears have problems getting 3 voices in tune.

I had to add one Resistor for the unaltered buffered output, and weirdly enough that one was wrong. same roll but 9% too high.
So my first demo video (done in 15 minutes, so don't shoot me for the simple sequencing and detunes) has only three voices.
(but also because I only have three 1V/Oct VCOs and three voltage sequencers in the moment, rest here is MIDI)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1fhEDcPu20

I hope for a better video from you wink
kay_k
frankbuss wrote:
Right, looks like 5k with 0.05% costs EUR 3.75 at Digikey (0805), but I can 10k with this accuracy for EUR 0.69, so 2 x 10k in parallel is it then. This gets still expensive, EUR 11 for 18 resistors which needs to be accurate, maybe I'll try it with 0.1% first, they cost only half.

How much accuracy do similar modules have? 1 mV sounds very good, but I can't find detailed datasheets for other modules, like accuracy, frequency Bode-plots, linearity curves etc. (I have some industrial electronics design background, where this is standard).


yeah, accurate resistors are not cheap. actually besides the panel the most expensive thing in my module, more than the jacks for instance.
frankbuss
I added again additional protection for all inputs and outputs. The OpAmp has already build-in protection, but better to have extra protection, costs only cents and doesn't have to be populated, if not needed.

I'm still not sure about the width. I guess without the switch and without the additional potentimeter output, it could be possible with 2 HP. But I bought some blank panels, and they are really tiny and have some disadvantages, like I couldn't find a pot with a screw for this width, so this would only be soldered to the PCB, and wouldn't have a nice knob, only a knurled shaft and fiddly to adjust. With 4 HP it is easier to place input and output jacks side by side (3 vertical for input, 3 vertical for output), and I would have space for the extra buffered voltage from the potentiometer, which might be useful when cascading multiple of these modules, or for exact measurements (is this done with modules?). So I think I'll do a prototype for 4 HP.
pieter
Returning to the OP's original list of transpose modules, if you have a Varigate 8+ you can use the CV out to transpose duties: Activate CV1 or CV2 and put it in Track mode. The Root+n sliders then act as a transpose. I believe you can also program this in, but I haven't tested that.

If you want to transpose multiple voices at once you will probably have to employ multiples and unity mixers, and that is bound to take more than 2hp.
aroom
pieter wrote:
Returning to the OP's original list of transpose modules, if you have a Varigate 8+ you can use the CV out to transpose duties: Activate CV1 or CV2 and put it in Track mode. The Root+n sliders then act as a transpose. I believe you can also program this in, but I haven't tested that.

If you want to transpose multiple voices at once you will probably have to employ multiples and unity mixers, and that is bound to take more than 2hp.


I have a VG8 and a VB. and you can't program neither control with CV the key change in Track mode. it's a good feature, but differ from what I'm looking for.

I will receive now a 2hp module who can handle pitch transpose for 3 voices. So it's not impossible.
Paranormal Patroler
aroom wrote:
Check him out, he got some good modules going on :
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/other-unknown-wk3-midi-thru


Yeah, I asked that he also make a 2HP MIDI merge since he did the MIDI Thru. Would be awesome to have that functionality on a eurorack case.
pieter
aroom wrote:
you can't program neither control with CV the key change in Track mode


What do you mean by "neither control"? I use the sliders to transpose a voice all the time. I typically have the notes coming from a different source, though, not the same CV out as the one I use for the transpose. The A-110 has a separate pitch CV in, which I use for the transpose in (similar trick to using the FM input on most VCOs).
aroom
frankbuss wrote:
I'm still not sure about the width. I guess without the switch and without the additional potentimeter output, it could be possible with 2 HP. But I bought some blank panels, and they are really tiny and have some disadvantages, like I couldn't find a pot with a screw for this width, so this would only be soldered to the PCB, and wouldn't have a nice knob, only a knurled shaft and fiddly to adjust. With 4 HP it is easier to place input and output jacks side by side (3 vertical for input, 3 vertical for output), and I would have space for the extra buffered voltage from the potentiometer, which might be useful when cascading multiple of these modules, or for exact measurements (is this done with modules?). So I think I'll do a prototype for 4 HP.


Personally it's a big deal going from 2hp to 4hp BUT it depends on the functions available.

If you go 4hp, you should consider adding some features. Like a potentiometer per voices. Did you consider that the pot offset should be quantised to octaves or semi-tones?

You could also consider adding a second transpose intput.


Your did mentioned switches in your design. What are they for?
aroom
dbl damn smartphone
aroom
pieter wrote:
aroom wrote:
you can't program neither control with CV the key change in Track mode


What do you mean by "neither control"? I use the sliders to transpose a voice all the time. I typically have the notes coming from a different source, though, not the same CV out as the one I use for the transpose. The A-110 has a separate pitch CV in, which I use for the transpose in (similar trick to using the FM input on most VCOs).


I meant you can't control this function with an external CV signal.
frankbuss
aroom wrote:

Your did mentioned switches in your design. What are they for?


The switch is for setting the pot offset to zero, because my assumption was that this is difficult to do manually, and sometimes you might want to do this temporary, but then back to the pot settings.

A quantised pot offset sounds difficult (I would use a microcontroller and a DAC for it), but right, might be very useful. Maybe switchable, too, if you need finer control for other things.
aroom
frankbuss wrote:
aroom wrote:

Your did mentioned switches in your design. What are they for?


The switch is for setting the pot offset to zero, because my assumption was that this is difficult to do manually, and sometimes you might want to do this temporary, but then back to the pot settings.

A quantised pot offset sounds difficult (I would use a microcontroller and a DAC for it), but right, might be very useful. Maybe switchable, too, if you need finer control for other things.


my guess for a 4hp module of this kind would be :

inputs :

T transpose master CV signal
T2 idem T - to add lfo for tremolo for instance

POT CV quantized to octave or third /quinte offset would be normalized to T2

1 CV signal from a sequencer
2 idem 1
3 idem 1

outputs :

T copy of T input

1 T+T2+1 inputs
2 T+T2+2 inputs
3 T+T2+3 inputs

with all T output, you'll have a 3 poles switch to select between what you want to add to the inputs :

nothing / T / T+T2



that would make it worth the 4hp form factor wink
gimber
I've been wishing for an add-one-to-many module for a couple years and am so glad to see this thread and the modules that seem to be coming out of it. I'm running four links right now to have four transposable channels but am really only using the middle section of each, so pulling this off in 2 or 4 hp (even if it's 3 instead of 4 channels) would be incredible.
aroom
gimber wrote:
I've been wishing for an add-one-to-many module for a couple years and am so glad to see this thread and the modules that seem to be coming out of it. I'm running four links right now to have four transposable channels but am really only using the middle section of each, so pulling this off in 2 or 4 hp (even if it's 3 instead of 4 channels) would be incredible.


yeah, I'm so grateful that frankbuss, kay_k and pichenettes got involved.

I can't wait to test the module. It will be perfect to transpose voices, but I'm sure it can be much more than that.
kay_k
So, when Aroom likes it and I find a few others I might build it right into the PCB. So it will be either a solder jumper on the back or an individual module.
I also plan to make a 1RU module featuring 2 WK1. (because I made myself a case with a 1RU row)
guestt
This is brilliant - thank you everyone smile

applause

Possibly redundant given how this thread has progressed, but to help complete the list Rabid Elephant's knobs has the ability to do two at the flip of a switch, it's very cool!

https://www.rabidelephant.com/products/knobs
frankbuss
[quote="aroom"][quote="frankbuss"]
aroom wrote:

POT CV quantized to octave or third /quinte offset would be normalized to T2


How does the normalization work?

Sure, I could do this, but I wonder if someone would buy it. My simple version would maybe cost EUR 20 for parts. With the additional in/outs, switches and quantization and the additional required OpAmps, microcontroller, DAC, ADC etc., it might cost EUR 50 for parts. But would be fun to do it Rockin' Banana!

So this would be the specification:

inputs :

T1 transpose master CV signal
T2 idem T1 - to add lfo for tremolo for instance, or for cascading multiple of this module, by feeding the pot output from other modules to it

CV in 1: CV signal from a sequencer
CV in 2
CV in 3
CV in 4

outputs :

pot CV output
copy of T1 input
copy of T2 input

out 1: CV in 1 + transpose voltage
out 2: CV in 2 + transpose voltage
out 3: CV in 3 + transpose voltage
out 4: CV in 4 + transpose voltage

transpose voltage: selectable with a 3 pole switch: nothing / T1 / T1+T2

other elements:

POT: CV offset

switch: select pot offset mode: fine linear, quantized: semitone, whole tone, third, quinte or octave (6 position switch). Might be a good idea to use a digital rotary encoder instead of a pot? in the "fine linear" position it could have some kind of acceleration: if you turn it slowly, it is really fine, but if you turn it faster, it changes exponentially faster.

Don't know, does this still fit in a 4 HP module? And would this still be in the spirit of modular systems? My assumption was that they shouldn't do too much with hardwired internal connections, but just one thing but this right, because then it is easier to combine them and more flexible. So for example there could be a module just with the quantized pot outputs (and switches to select the mode), maybe 4 pots and 4 outputs. This would be useful on its own for all kind of scenarios. And then simply a module which adds 2 CV signals, maybe with 5 channels (so two inputs and one output for each channel). Then another module which can split 1 input to 7 outputs (I think there are already many such spitter modules, best would be active, not passive, to avoid too much load from the inputs of connected modules). Then you can patch it all as you want seriously, i just don't get it
aroom
frankbuss

I imagined that the CV generated by the POT would be summed to anything on the T2 input. like in the A-185-2 module

I have no idea how Doepfer managed to add 1 V per stage on their POT. maybe it's not a pot. maybe it's not that complicated and doesn't involve a micro controller. Sorry can't help you with the electronic aspect. I guess it's incremented and adds or removes 1 V on each positions.

At the end, this POT feature is not the biggest asset of the module, IMO. for me it doesn't need to have all that quantization, semi tones, third, quinte features. Maybe it doesn't even need to be at all.


The switch feature is maybe more relevant, due to the 4 hp form factor. I'm just throwing some ideas on the thread at this point, just to see what could be done differently than what Kay is already proposing in 2hp.

I guess that before going crazy on a fixed architecture, it's good to exchange some ideas (I hope more people will come and drop some good idea as well), but the most relevant part would be to try some prototypes and see what the most useful at the end.


frankbuss wrote:
But would be fun to do it ! Rockin' Banana!


Exactly w00t

Regarding the spirit of modular, I guess that it's personal if someone want's to go in the One Module One Function way or One Module a lot of Function way. It also depends on how small you wanna keep your rig.

So you are right, almost every modules needed to achieve that are already out. Just check the list I made on the first post. It's just a matter of HP : a small specialized module.


And like I said in an early post, this whole idea / concept was based on how to transpose more than one voice in 2hp but could be used for anything else. Times will tell.


By the way, your idea to have an output and input to chain more than one of this module is really smart.
frankbuss
Looks like the quanitzer circuit is simple, for example in a Doepfer A156:

http://www.doepfer.de/service/A156_Abgleich.pdf

I can't find a schemaitc, but you can see a TLC5620, a good 8 bit quad DAC for EUR 4, and a PIC16C73, an old and outdated microcontroller (which has integrated ADCs). They might do some tricks like oversampling or stacking the DACs, I would simply use a cheap but better 12 bit DAC.
frankbuss
I did a test on a breadboard for the sum and quantize circuit, and to test the ADR03 reference. The reference voltage was spot on at 2.500 V, says my multimeter and even after buffering with the OPA4180 etc. with 1% resistor from my parts bin it was still 1 mV exact. That's a good start.

Then I used the MCP4822 DAC and an Arduino to test the quantization. The measured values are not the best, errors compared to the calculated values range from -1 mV to +7 mV. But then one semitone is 83 mV, so should be still good enough and the additional ADC of the Arduino might result in a larger recorded error than what it actually is. This is the Arduino script:

https://gist.github.com/FrankBuss/387382d840e14c295ce4148931bc42d9

And this the debug output, recorded with Minicom and displayed with a speadsheet program (Libre Office, I'm working mostly on Linux, y-axis in millivolts) :



Really nice to test such things with the Arduino, because it is easy to program ideas and then record and analyze data, either audio or numbers with the serial port stream.

So how does it sound in a real setup? I tested it with a sequencer, and my only module I have so far, a Ginkosynthese Grains, with the PWM saw Arduino sketch with VCA/VCF (configured with VCF). The sequencer CV output is summed to a CV, which is controlled by a linear pot, and to a CV, which is controlled by the Arduino and the DAC, which quantizes another pot, and then the summed signal is used for the pitch of the Grains VCO. This is how it sounds:



As you can hear, there are some glitches when changing the quantized pitch, but I think I can solve this with a digital hysteresis in the software, because at the edges between two steps it oscillates sometimes. The noise etc. might be because of the breadboard setup and the not exactly hifi quality of the Grains VCO.
frankbuss
Another idea for the architecture, maybe crazy, really difficult to design a universal and useful module nuts



It is 8 HP, wasting a lot of precious space, but on the other hand it is very flexible and integrates 3 modules in one. Function should be obvious, because there is no internal routing, everything can be patched externally as you like. All functions discussed in this thread should be possible with patching. And I added a switch for the potentiometer min/max range, to allow finer adjustments, if you just want one octave, but on the max level, you can adjust it to +/-5 octaves.

I have some questions about the quantize function. Is it useful to add scale functions, like the A156 has (http://www.doepfer.de/a100_man/A156_man.pdf)? But then it would be absolute, note C starting a 0 V. Is this right? With the last semitone test it is kind of absolute, too, because it scales the measured voltage to 1/12 steps, but of course it doesn't matter, if the note at 1 V represents C or D or whatever. Then I could use 2 switches, as in the A156 unit. I don't know if the 3rd switch is useful, probably you don't want to transpose +6 or +7 often, and then a rotary encoder with 8 positions for some useful applications might be better, including maybe an full octave position and a "no change" position? Everything special could be done with the semitone position (when you control it with a pot).

I'm not sure about the exact dimensions of the elements, I measured it with my Grains module which I have here. Attached is the Inkscape (free vector graphics program) SVG file, if you want to move elements around or if you have other ideas.
SlyFrank
frankbuss wrote:
Another idea for the architecture, maybe crazy, really difficult to design a universal and useful module nuts



It is 8 HP


8 HP is fine with me for such a useful module. I'd buy it in a minute whether pre-built or DIY. This thread is very timely as I am recently looking to be able to transpose up to 4 separate sequences at the same time with 1-4 constant offset voltages (it's kinda doable now, but it's very clunky). At least 4 channels of 2 inputs each and an output each would be great. Someone earlier mentioned 3 sequences being transposed would be OK, but for me, 4 would be ideal...and awesome w00t

Edit: Also, the quantizer on-board is nice, but imo opinion not essential, so if it saves cost/HP then I would omit it. I am most interested in transposing sequences not in increments of 100 cents (microtonal scales), and even in those times when I am using a 12-TET scale, my voltage offsets will be coming from a source that can produce those exact values. Others may disagree...
frankbuss
Ok, sounds like a plan cool I cleaned it up a bit and removed the quantizer. There are just too many possibilities and it is not really related to the transpose function, and would make it more expensive with a microcontroller and DAC. I think would be better to use a separate module for it which just quantizes a signal.

But I used an idea which was posted earlier in this thread, with a master-sum channel, and two switches, to add the CV-out signal to the master-sum, and another switch to add the master-out to the other 4 sum channels (which means there are 4 possible combinations). This reduces the external wiring a lot, if you want to use it for the initial use case posted in this thread, adding a CV signal and a pot to up to 4 CV signals in parallel.

In addition each sum channel has 2 inputs, for adding signals individually to each channel.

With the master out and the 2 CV-outs (same level on both CV-outputs, but individually buffered, and short-circuit protected, as all the other outputs), it is possible to cascade multiple of these modules in different ways, to transpose more than 4 channels.



If this is ok, I'll change the circuit diagram. I would still use the OPA4180, with very low offset voltage and "zero-drift" function, and 0.1% resistors, which should result in better than 1 mV accuracy.

Would be my first module, so initially I would sell it just for the parts cost to anyone who wants to try it. Only requirement would be to tell me if it works as expected, or if there are problems, in which case you could send it back and I will refund you. But I don't expect problems for such a simple module.

Only remaining question is a nice name for it. What about "Frank's Sum"? nanners
SlyFrank
Looks great. 1 mV or better accuracy is what is needed (ideally) for such a module, so this would be an amazing transpose module. I'd be happy to be a beta-tester and either build it and test it (as long as I was provided a PCB & BOM) or buy it and test it pre-built.

And, yeah, totally agree - quantizing seems to be an unnecessary add-on for this module. That can be done easily elsewhere. Somewhat similar in function to the Doepfer A-185-2 Precision Adder (which also has no built-in quantizer), but the Doepfer is only one channel (so would need 4 of them = 24 HP total), and this module would be far better, i.e. 4x A-185-2s in 24 HP would not come close to 1x of this module in 8 HP!

Cheers Guinness ftw!
gimber
Count me in, looks great.

I didn't fully grasp the earlier discussion about the knob/cv source, but it'd be really useful if that switch would jump in whole volts so it'd be an octave switch as well.

You could give it a black panel and call it Black Adder Dead Banana
frankbuss
gimber wrote:

I didn't fully grasp the earlier discussion about the knob/cv source, but it'd be really useful if that switch would jump in whole volts so it'd be an octave switch as well.


Well, this would be the task of the external quantizer, or MIDI-to-CV generator. But I could add a voltmeter:



This doesn't require an expensive DAC, just a small one Euro PIC microcontroller could do it. But the displays with such small digits are a bit expensive, I found only this at Digikey for EUR 5.24:

http://rohmfs.rohm.com/en/products/databook/datasheet/opto/led_display  /numeric/lb-303ak.pdf

But it might be worth the price, to have an accurate measurement. Would be 10 mV accurate, which is about 1/8 semitone with 1V/octave. So you could select the +/-5V range and then adjust exactly to full octaves yourself.

Alternatively I could add two switches instead of the display: one 3 position switch for selecting +/manual/-. When manual is selected, then the pot is used. Otherwise another switch is used: 1V/2V/3V. The first switch decides if it is +1/+2/+3V or -1/-2/-3V. But I think the voltmeter is more flexible and would even allow you to adjust exactly for chords etc.

PS: in this draft I added two slots on each edge, because with all the jacks with lots of possible cables, it might be not stable enough with just one screw on each side. Found a name for it, too: "Sum & CV". How boring is this hihi
gimber
I was just thinking about what happens when the cv source range switch was flipped among the different ranges. If the change was in whole volts and you were using it to feed the transpose input, everything would stay in tune, just switch octaves.

The voltage display is interesting, but I would just as soon leave it out to have a simpler module.

Then again I'd also be happy with a 4hp module with no cv source and one set of inputs. twisted

frankbuss
gimber wrote:
I was just thinking about what happens when the cv source range switch was flipped among the different ranges. If the change was in whole volts and you were using it to feed the transpose input, everything would stay in tune, just switch octaves.


I don't know how to do this without a microcontroller, because e.g. when there is a range +/-1V and the pot has selected 0.5V, when you change it to +/-2V, the output voltage would be 1V, not 1.5V.

And right, maybe the voltmeter makes it too complicated. You could always use the second output and a cheap Chinese $3 multimeter from eBay to measure it exactly hihi

But now that you mentioned that it might be useful to change octaves, maybe it would be a good idea to add two 3 position switches? One for -1V, 0V, +1V and one for -2V, 0V and +2V. With these switches you can quickly change the octave from -3V to +3V in 1V steps, and the pot value would stay in tune. Or maybe a rotary switch with multiple positions.

SlyFrank
gimber wrote:
Then again I'd also be happy with a 4hp module with no cv source and one set of inputs. twisted



This is _exactly_ what I have been wanting. I assume that the single IN at the top is for the transposing voltage, which is added to all 4 of the INs (sequences or whatever) and the resulting 4 sums go out the 4 OUTS.

But I'm happy with whatever direction this goes, so long as that core functionality is there. The extra bells & whistles (switches, etc) are certainly nice (and I would definitely buy it), and I understand how octave switching would be useful, but this 4 HP mockup is very elegant.
Zephod
I'd certainly be interested in building/testing a few prototypes of these - should be excellent to use with Tuesday :-)
gimber
SlyFrank wrote:


This is _exactly_ what I have been wanting. I assume that the single IN at the top is for the transposing voltage, which is added to all 4 of the INs (sequences or whatever) and the resulting 4 sums go out the 4 OUTS.


Yep, it would simply add the top input to the four other inputs. My first thread ever here was about wanting to design a module like this but I never had the time to figure it out. It's exciting to see something similar coming along!
aroom
guys, there is already a 3 voices option in 2 hp ready to be backed if you are interested.

I mean, take two of this module and you'll have 6 voices in 4 hp

edit :

check kay_k posts on this thread :

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2606997#2606997

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2609402#2609402


I'm gonna pick up his custom made module tomorrow at the post office. Unfortunately I won't be able to test and report because I'll be off for 10 days in the Faroe Island, without my modular
aroom
regarding frankbuss project, I think that it's great to have more option if you go with a larger form factor than 2 hp

I like the switch option, but personally I would like to have one switch per output.
gimber
aroom wrote:
guys, there is already a 3 voices option in 2 hp ready to be backed if you are interested.

I mean, take two of this module and you'll have 6 voices in 4 hp

edit :

check kay_k posts on this thread :

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2606997#2606997

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2609402#2609402


I'm gonna pick up his custom made module tomorrow at the post office. Unfortunately I won't be able to test and report because I'll be off for 10 days in the Faroe Island, without my modular


If that's the case then great! Those posts don't really describe the module (other than a potential 1u version) and the video is shot in the dark, so the kay_k module is a little unclear. Is it described somewhere else?
SlyFrank
gimber wrote:
aroom wrote:
guys, there is already a 3 voices option in 2 hp ready to be backed if you are interested.

I mean, take two of this module and you'll have 6 voices in 4 hp


If that's the case then great! Those posts don't really describe the module (other than a potential 1u version) and the video is shot in the dark, so the kay_k module is a little unclear. Is it described somewhere else?


Is this the module? http://www.modulargrid.net/e/other-unknown-wk1

If it is, then I may be misinterpreting or misunderstanding this module, but from what I see this module can be used for transposing 1 sequence per module - there is only one output in the mixer. So 4 modules would be needed = 8 HP. It's a 3:1 buffered mixer, so one input can be the sequence, one input can be the transposing voltage, the third input I dunno. But what I am talking about (and what I think gimber is too) is being able to add a single transpose voltage to 4 different sequences simultaneously. So each sequence + transpose voltage combo will need its own output = 4 outputs. This only has one output. And only one sequence + transpose voltage combo.

Maybe I am not grasping this... I found this on MG by clicking the link in that YouTube video.

If this is the module, then it's the same as using the middle section of Links 4x times, although it does use 1/2 the space.
aroom
so for now, the module is custom made from an existing module, the WK1 (https://www.modulargrid.net/e/other-unknown-wk1) from Leipzig West


his designer, kay_k, was able to mod it for me, by cutting some traces and soldering some wires.

this is the concept :




but at the end, he managed to end up with a clearer layout.

the function are :

Inputs

T
1
2
3

Outputs

T (buffered copy from T)
1+T
2+T
3+T


it's smart, because you can chain more than one module with the buffered T output


and kay_k is ready to do a new PCB with those functions, if enough people are interested - check his post about that
SlyFrank
Ah, I see now. Thanks for the explanation. This makes sense now, and I agree that the buffered T output is a smart idea for chaining.

If this was built as a new PCB, I'd definitely be interested.

Cheers Guinness ftw!
aroom
yeah it's great. we just need enough people in and this could be in production.
SlyFrank
I'm in.
gimber
I'm in too. Thanks for clearing this up.
mskala
If this is becoming a "post your transposition modules that people can't actually have yet" thread, maybe I can sneak in this one. Currently held up waiting for the panels, I'm still busy writing the manual, and I have a store opening and another module to start selling before this one will work its way to the front of the queue... but it is in the queue, and I've got a batch of them half-built on my workbench right now.
frankbuss
aroom wrote:
regarding frankbuss project, I think that it's great to have more option if you go with a larger form factor than 2 hp

I like the switch option, but personally I would like to have one switch per output.


I don't know if it would fit, but I should get some jacks and switches from Thonk this week, which I could use for exact dimension measurements.

What would you like to have per output? 0, +1V, +2V? I don't have experience with modular setups, does my -1V, -2V idea even make sense, or would it be better to have just a knob for like 0, +1, +2, +3, +4?

But right, everyone who needs it now, and in 2 HP, should buy the modded module from kay_k. My module might need some more time and planning, but I will do it anyway, just as a simple example for learning how to produce modules.
av500
mskala wrote:
If this is becoming a "post your transposition modules that people can't actually have yet" thread, maybe I can sneak in this one. Currently held up waiting for the panels, I'm still busy writing the manual, and I have a store opening and another module to start selling before this one will work its way to the front of the queue... but it is in the queue, and I've got a batch of them half-built on my workbench right now.


then let me add mine as well smile

it's single channel only, but then it's only 4hp. it's called T43 because it can add or sub up to 43 halftones or ~3.5 octaves in addition to adding input B and adding or subtracting input C if needed.

prototypes haven been built and are being used/tested as we speak

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/vpme-de-t43

aroom
I just received Kay's mod and did this short clip :




It does the job perfectly, does a lot in a small form factor : couldn't be happier.


kay_k told me by mail that he will do a new version from his WK1 with jumper, to be able to switch from the original function from the WK1 (adder + buff mult) to this transpose master function.

If you are interested, contact him I guess. (you'll find his website / infos in this thread)
aroom
mskala wrote:
If this is becoming a "post your transposition modules that people can't actually have yet" thread


hé hé

you can get Kay's mod right now - you just have to contact him


but it's great that all of you are designing and releasing new modules - congrats w00t . I wish I could design my own as well.

mskala brillant! the quantized input is a good idea. I just wonder if you could spare some HP and make it smaller ?


av500 this is fun! so if I understood correctly, you have three inputs (a b c) and 6 switches ?


frankbuss personally I would use one switch per output to select how I want the summing done for each output - like I described in one of my earliest post : to be able to select from input A or B or the CV offset

but who knows. it's maybe smarter to have the octave selection by outputs as well. I don't know.

If I had to choose the range, I guess it would be smart to be able to go at least from -1 / 0 / +1. meaning It could be smart ans as important to be able to go down an octave or two, than to go up.

-2 / -1 / 0 / +1 / +2 would be the top of the top.
av500
aroom wrote:


av500 this is fun! so if I understood correctly, you have three inputs (a b c) and 6 switches ?


correct smile
mskala
aroom wrote:
mskala brillant! the quantized input is a good idea. I just wonder if you could spare some HP and make it smaller ?


To coin a phrase, people's eyes are smaller than their fingers. I don't think making my design physically smaller would be a good idea, for a number of reasons, but it'll be open and others who want to attempt that can try.
youkon
did actually anyone already mention the A-185-2?



I use this in front of every oscillator!
http://www.doepfer.de/a1852.htm
aroom
youkon wrote:
did actually anyone already mention the A-185-2?


Yes w00t
av500
the A-185-2 as currently exiting suffers from two issues that make it way less precision than what the name suggests. Doepfer have fixed both of them and will update the units in the future. I don't know if that will be a model name change or a running change in production
kay_k
Thanks Aroom again! I'm happy you like it.


So I already got a few people that badly want that modded module too.
I have to say this a 1cm wide PCB with 0603 resistors and TSSOP Opamps.
Modding it is theoretically very easy but making that mod so that the wire stays in place and then sell it to people makes my hands sweaty.
I will add the necessary footprints on the PCB or maybe even a jumper (again 1cm wide, I first have to find a place for 4 jumpers)
I still have PCBs from the previous "production" run that I don't want to go to waste.

Lets put it that way: if I get 5 raised hands I will make the PCB changes now and order it right away. Including a specific panel. (I want one myself hihi )
If it is only the people who wrote me then they will get what Aroom got, i.e. PCB with 4 wires on it and a black unmarked panel which they can mark themselfes.
SlyFrank
kay_k wrote:
Lets put it that way: if I get 5 raised hands I will make the PCB changes now and order it right away. Including a specific panel. (I want one myself hihi )
If it is only the people who wrote me then they will get what Aroom got, i.e. PCB with 4 wires on it and a black unmarked panel which they can mark themselfes.


C'mon, folks. This is such a simple (and necessary), yet currently unavailable transpose module. Raise your hands Rawk!
gimber
SlyFrank wrote:


C'mon, folks. This is such a simple (and necessary), yet currently unavailable transpose module. Raise your hands Rawk!


SlyFrank, are you sure you only need one? I'm thinking about going in for two... hihi
SlyFrank
gimber wrote:
SlyFrank wrote:


C'mon, folks. This is such a simple (and necessary), yet currently unavailable transpose module. Raise your hands Rawk!


SlyFrank, are you sure you only need one? I'm thinking about going in for two... hihi


Oh yes! I made it clear to kay_k that I am in for 2. I want 4 voices minimum able to be transposed at the same time. This module allows for chaining, due to the T buffered out, which is brilliant cool
gimber
SlayerBadger!
kay_k
OK - I changed the layout. I'm using solder bridges as jumpers now.
At work I'd use 0402 zero ohm resistors for such things (or in this case just use those 100k resistors wth alternative landing points). I thought for a normal person soldering 0603 or 0402 isn't a fun task so I've made those broken pads which should be fairly easy to bridge or break with a home use soldering iron.
I'm going to send the module out in the requested config, but you guys can decide that you might want the other after all and change it down the road.
I'm calling the alternative config the "Aroom Config" - I hope he is happy with that Mr. Green

Paranormal Patroler
av500 wrote:
mskala wrote:
If this is becoming a "post your transposition modules that people can't actually have yet" thread, maybe I can sneak in this one. Currently held up waiting for the panels, I'm still busy writing the manual, and I have a store opening and another module to start selling before this one will work its way to the front of the queue... but it is in the queue, and I've got a batch of them half-built on my workbench right now.


then let me add mine as well smile

it's single channel only, but then it's only 4hp. it's called T43 because it can add or sub up to 43 halftones or ~3.5 octaves in addition to adding input B and adding or subtracting input C if needed.

prototypes haven been built and are being used/tested as we speak

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/vpme-de-t43


Can I get one of these ready-made?
desolationjones
kay_k wrote:
Lets put it that way: if I get 5 raised hands I will make the PCB changes now and order it right away. Including a specific panel.


kay_k, I sent an email to info -at- leipzigwest -dot- org but I will echo my interest here so you can count me towards the 5 raised hands! nanners

The only module I have which can transpose three voices is the WMD Sequential Switch Matrix. It's not on the front page list, but this is probably one of the best transpose modules out there due to the ability to self-patch as a DAC + adder, plus you can step through patterns!

But the SSM is 16HP and kay's module could accomplish much of this in 2HP we're not worthy
aroom
kay_k wrote:

I'm calling the alternative config the "Aroom Config" - I hope he is happy with that Mr. Green


Yeah! It's peanut butter jelly time!
kay_k
desolationjones wrote:
kay_k wrote:
Lets put it that way: if I get 5 raised hands I will make the PCB changes now and order it right away. Including a specific panel.


kay_k, I sent an email to info -at- leipzigwest -dot- org but I will echo my interest here so you can count me towards the 5 raised hands! nanners

The only module I have which can transpose three voices is the WMD Sequential Switch Matrix. It's not on the front page list, but this is probably one of the best transpose modules out there due to the ability to self-patch as a DAC + adder, plus you can step through patterns!

But the SSM is 16HP and kay's module could accomplish much of this in 2HP we're not worthy


counted! we officially reached five.

thanks!
kay_k
So, PCBs and panels are in production. All the parts are here already except for the jacks from Thonk which should come tomorrow.
When I'm back from my vacations in 14 days everything should be delivered and I can start placing parts and sending stuff to you.
Guinness ftw!
Graham Hinton
All our --Mix series of modules are optimised for pitch accurate summing with resistors matched to better than 0.05% and 25 turn calibration trimmers.
I expect to be able to add multiple pitch CVs and route various combinations of them to multiple destinations as standard and not to have to get a "special" module to do that.

If you have to chain adders the errors in gain and offset accumulate, it is better to be able to do it all in one go. The concept behind SwitchMix and PinMix is to be able to compensate for less than ideal external sources and destinations (which many are) so that all summing done in the matrix is at exactly 1V/oct. Different sources may be combined and changed around even if the VCOs don't track perfectly as the individual summed outputs may be fine adjusted.
VZvision
Am currently really into using a WMD SSM combined with an Monome ARC/Ansible in levels mode to get some amazing control over transposition.

I will caveat this with saying its an exotic and expensive way to get transposing, but it's unbelievably flexible in terms of its implementation.
kay_k
Graham Hinton wrote:
All our --Mix series of modules are optimised for pitch accurate summing with resistors matched to better than 0.05% and 25 turn calibration trimmers.
I expect to be able to add multiple pitch CVs and route various combinations of them to multiple destinations as standard and not to have to get a "special" module to do that.

If you have to chain adders the errors in gain and offset accumulate, it is better to be able to do it all in one go. The concept behind SwitchMix and PinMix is to be able to compensate for less than ideal external sources and destinations (which many are) so that all summing done in the matrix is at exactly 1V/oct. Different sources may be combined and changed around even if the VCOs don't track perfectly as the individual summed outputs may be fine adjusted.


Your SwitchMix is an awesome product I'd love to own!!

You miss the point tho, the OP wanted a really small module for this limited task of transposing a few voices with one master cv.

The last weeks I've been thinking a lot about all of this and two things came to my mind. First - I should try and keep the sequences in lower octaves and rather use the tuning of the VCOs to get higher. which should help with gain errors.
Second a little error is why we use this really old way of doing things. otherwise all our VCOs were digital with a MIDI input grin
I use 0.05% resistors for all resistors of our WK1 and with the quantities I produce this makes the second most expensive part of the module after the panel. I'd argue that is about good enough for the cause and also the price I ask.
drinkcorpsevomit
VZvision wrote:
Am currently really into using a WMD SSM combined with an Monome ARC/Ansible in levels mode to get some amazing control over transposition.

I will caveat this with saying its an exotic and expensive way to get transposing, but it's unbelievably flexible in terms of its implementation.


Care to go into any more details what you are doing here? I'm a big Monome levels convert and have a SSM too. Any pointers?
gimber
kay_k wrote:

When I'm back from my vacations in 14 days everything should be delivered and I can start placing parts and sending stuff to you.
Guinness ftw!


It's peanut butter jelly time! can't wait!
VZvision
drinkcorpsevomit wrote:
VZvision wrote:
Am currently really into using a WMD SSM combined with an Monome ARC/Ansible in levels mode to get some amazing control over transposition.

I will caveat this with saying its an exotic and expensive way to get transposing, but it's unbelievably flexible in terms of its implementation.


Care to go into any more details what you are doing here? I'm a big Monome levels convert and have a SSM too. Any pointers?


For sure. Simplest patch would be a Quantized CV source (usually a CV sequence but sometimes a S&H into a Quantizer) into one of the inputs on the SSM. An Output from Ansible to input 2 of the SSM. Output of SSM into VCO 1V/oct. Set quantization scale on Ansible levels to match the quantization scale coming from your sequencer for transposition within the sequencer's scale (i.e. if your sequence is quantized to a harmonic minor, set the Ansible to the same quantization scale using the pre-set scales). Activate transpose of sequence by adjusting SSM Matrix and Arc CV level to taste.

From here there's a few additions/twists you can make:

1. Another 2 CV sequences into the remaining inputs of the SSM...then the one ring of the Ansible is available to transpose the three CV sequences all at once or one at a time etc.

2. Another CV sequence and another Arc/Ansible CV output into SSM so now you have two CV sequences that can swap transpositions depending on your Arc settings

3. Outputs 2, 3, and 4 into more VCO's so that they can swap the sequencer/transpose network you set up in 1 & 2.

4. Clocking transposition via Arc/Ansible levels patterns.

5. Clocking the swapping of transposition and CV sequences via SSM matrices.

The linchpin that makes this work is the precision resistors on the SSM similar but I don't think identical to the Doepfer precision addder

Wiggler hard and hope that helps.
Graham Hinton
kay_k wrote:
You miss the point tho, the OP wanted a really small module for this limited task of transposing a few voices with one master cv.


No, I'm pointing out that what someone thinks they want and what they really need are two different things.

Quote:

Second a little error is why we use this really old way of doing things. otherwise all our VCOs were digital with a MIDI input grin


No, neither statement is true. The Minimoog had highly selected resistors to achieve its tracking of multiple CVs to the VCOs.

Quote:

I use 0.05% resistors for all resistors of our WK1 and with the quantities I produce this makes the second most expensive part of the module after the panel.


Buying 0.05% resistors is expensive because you are paying for someone else to test and select them. If you do this yourself it is a lot cheaper, that is what Moog did.
Paranormal Patroler
Graham Hinton wrote:
No, I'm pointing out that what someone thinks they want and what they really need are two different things.


lolspew
kay_k
Graham Hinton wrote:

Buying 0.05% resistors is expensive because you are paying for someone else to test and select them. If you do this yourself it is a lot cheaper, that is what Moog did.


yeah, but I have neither the time nor the equipment to do that myself in the moment. also with 0603 I believe my measurements will be really shitty anyway.
frankbuss
A slightly modified idea for my deluxe version:



The idea is that with the new 0 position of the range switch, it is possible to create an exact output voltage of -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2 and 3 V with the switches on the right, otherwise the pot value will be added to the switch values. Special cases, like individually adding signals to each output, can be done with patch cables (and maybe some external splitters, if you don't use stackable cables). But each function can be used separately as well, like if you need 5 separate adders, or just the precision buffered CV generator.

I'm still modifying and optimizing the schematic, currently I'm at 7 quad-OpAmps, drawn with a handful of hierarchical schematics (nice feature of KiCad), because it is too big and complicated for one sheet, and lots and lots of precision resistors. Might get more expensive than expected, but there is a reason it is the deluxe version headbang

I also bought a new toy to ensure that it is at least 1 mV accurate as promised. I can measure 0.1 mV with it, for a +/-5 V full scale voltage:



The test in the image was done with a voltage test source from voltagestandard.com , they make really nice devices. I think the voltage is accurate, because the Fluke was recently calibrated and it is unlikely that the Fluke and the voltage standard both have the same error. And it has a GPIB interface which works in Linux, so I can write some Python scripts to create characteristics curves over the entire input and output range and test the accuracy.

The Fluke can also measure resistance with 1 milliohm resolution, in the 200 ohm range, and has 5 digits for the higher ranges as well. This means I could select the 0.1% resistors, too, but I don't know if it is worth the additional work, will do some more tests.
kay_k
frankbuss wrote:

The Fluke can also measure resistance with 1 milliohm resolution, in the 200 ohm range, and has 5 digits for the higher ranges as well. This means I could select the 0.1% resistors, too, but I don't know if it is worth the additional work, will do some more tests.


I think selecting your resistors would be better with some sort of well adjusted wheatstone bridge than trusting on the last digit of the multimeter.
Our module needs about 20 precise resistors. I use 0603, which is brutally fiddly to measure with those avarage probe tipps. I rather spent the price (about 4x from 0.1% to 0.05%) and let some trained professionals (a.k.a. a production robot) do that for me.
kay_k
double post
governor blacksnake
IME'S "ARGOS BLEAK" can use its second input as a transpose in "sum" mode. Ships at the end of August.

http://www.industrialmusicelectronics.com/products/20
dooj88
forgive the noobiness, but can someone explain the functional difference between something like the wmd invert/offset and a precision adder? (aside from the option for incremental additions of voltage in the doeper)

i looked around to no avail.
Paranormal Patroler
dooj88 wrote:
forgive the noobiness, but can someone explain the functional difference between something like the wmd invert/offset and a precision adder? (aside from the option for incremental additions of voltage in the doeper)

i looked around to no avail.


In the simplest terms possible: an offset is an adder. But then you can have simple adders or precision adders, the latter being very useful in circumstances where precise voltages are important, such as when adding a voltage to another voltage which will be used for Pitch. You don't want to miss that note because your adder isn't precise!

Does that make sense?
dooj88
I think so. Is the available control just more granular, or is there some tracking/compensation occurring as well?
Paranormal Patroler
dooj88 wrote:
I think so. Is the available control just more granular, or is there some tracking/compensation occurring as well?


It's a matter of circuit precision (what % of deviation from the required CV value there is). It boils down to precision adders being more precise devices in comparison to your standard offset - and thus the UI is aimed at applications which have to do with Pitch. Hope that helps!
kay_k
so .. I soldered the opamps on all modules today and completed 6 of them. I have to test them one by one but I'm positive I'll get them out by the end of the week.

So all the ppl interested in one should get back to me for the transaction details.
I've sent some emails out but I'm not sure if I remembered everyone.
cptnal
Sequential switch to flick between different transposing offsets? Been using channels 2&3 of Maths with my new A-166 to do this. Use a lower clock division to trigger the switch and your sequence will happily transpose all night. w00t
mskala
mskala wrote:
If this is becoming a "post your transposition modules that people can't actually have yet" thread, maybe I can sneak in this one. Currently held up waiting for the panels, I'm still busy writing the manual, and I have a store opening and another module to start selling before this one will work its way to the front of the queue... but it is in the queue, and I've got a batch of them half-built on my workbench right now.


So yeah, it's shipping now. Precision addition, subtraction, and octave shifts manually and under CV control.
RecycleYourPets
I also noticed this the other night, which could make it on your list.

https://northcoastsynthesis.com/products/msk-008-dual-vc-octave-switch

not sure if your trying for more than just octave transposition but I did see the beast's chalkboard was mentioned already so ....
basicbasic
mskala wrote:

So yeah, it's shipping now. Precision addition, subtraction, and octave shifts manually and under CV control.


I've started saving - looks like pretty much the ideal oscillator octave controller i've been looking for.
kay_k
so, the initial run of the Aroom WK1 module is sold. I already got requests for more.
nanners

none is left for myself (as usual) waah
kay_k
So is anyone in need of one of our WK1s? .. I'm going to make some more
charlie360x
aroom wrote:

- Mutable Instruments Links - 4 hp tested


How can you transpose pitch with Links? Can you explain a sample patch please?
aroom
charlie360x wrote:

How can you transpose pitch with Links? Can you explain a sample patch please?



You can use the 2:2 section. Just patch the sequence you want to transpose and whatever controller you'll use to send the transpose CV in both inputs.

Quote:
The 2:2 section is a 2-input summer with unity gains (also known as a precision adder). The sum of the two input channels is distributed to 2 outputs.
kay_k
So .. old thread but I was just pointed towards a very useful thing the WK1 Aroom is great for:

3 channel Euro to Moog adapter. I wasn't aware that Moog still is using the -5 to +5 V/oct scheme.
Anyway for this person I am modding a -5V reference to the WK1 normaled to T input, so he can play the DFAM VCOs lower with euro sequencers.
(Not tested yet but well let's hope I don't have a brain fart and this works as expected)
This could also work the other way around (+5V) if someone would like to use the MIDI interface & sequencer of the Mother32 for euro. BUT not both in one WK1 module.
Roge Piltoney
are these still being made??
aroom
yep

https://wigglehunt.com/#/search?query=wk1&stock_status=1&condition=&pr ice_min=0&price_max=5000&base_currency=
Roge Piltoney
Oh I meant if anyone is still modding it to be a 3 channel adder?
kay_k
Roge Piltoney wrote:
Oh I meant if anyone is still modding it to be a 3 channel adder?


me hyper
kay_k
aroom wrote:
yep

https://wigglehunt.com/#/search?query=wk1&stock_status=1&condition=&pr ice_min=0&price_max=5000&base_currency=


a website for modular shop search ? And I thought I've seen it all.
kay_k
So .. it is now much easier to get this mod:

https://www.schneidersladen.de/de/lpzw-wk1-aroom.html
acidbob
Ladik easy quantizer also has CV for the transpose... Or am I missing something? 4HP http://ladik.ladik.eu/?page_id=769
aroom
acidbob wrote:
Ladik easy quantizer also has CV for the transpose... Or am I missing something? 4HP http://ladik.ladik.eu/?page_id=769


I added it to the list, but a lot of modules can handle to transpose a voice. Right now only the WK1 can handle to transpose 3 voices in 2hp. And it can be chained. So it's really the ultimate transpose utility module here.
acidbob
aroom wrote:
acidbob wrote:
Ladik easy quantizer also has CV for the transpose... Or am I missing something? 4HP http://ladik.ladik.eu/?page_id=769


I added it to the list, but a lot of modules can handle to transpose a voice. Right now only the WK1 can handle to transpose 3 voices in 2hp. And it can be chained. So it's really the ultimate transpose utility module here.


Aaah it is kind of cool, hmmm money-time-money-time.
I can imagine how it wound sound having 3 independent seq. Running and shifting them all together smile
Datum
Thanks aroom for creating this list of precision adders and transposing modules, I've found it helpful in my own search for a transposition module.

Has anyone checked out Noise Engineering's Quantus Pax?

It has 4 separate channels that can be individually transposed or transposed from 3 global transpose inputs. All in 6HP. Perfect for the original intention of transposing multiple voices.

The only downside is it commands a premium price.
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