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Cocoquantus in a guitar rig?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Ciat-Lonbarde  
Author Cocoquantus in a guitar rig?
megamaeng
I've convinced myself that I want to get a cocoquantus to incorporate into my guitar rig but had some specific questions that I could use help with for those who own one.

I'm planning on connecting the left and right delay lines into 2 loops of my Boss MS-3, which should allow me to send the guitar to both individually when using one at a time, or from the left into the right when both loops are on.

Since I have a dual cv expression pedal as well as the ability to send out a ton of midi cc's from the MS-3, I figured with some midi to cv conversion, I can have remote control over sample start, feedback, loop speed, and maybe even send cv to the flip and skip functions, tho I'd probably use the quantussy section for some of that.

My question revolves around how well I can use the delays and loops and clear out the buffer in a live setting while playing the guitar. If I'm not manipulating the cocoquantus by hand while I'm playing, would I be able to get a wide variety of settings just by how much cv I send into some inputs? Also, say I'm able to mute the signal going into the cocoquantus, would it be easy to clear out the buffer via foot controlled cv without having to manipulate the dolby switches by hand?

The end goal is to get unpredictable delays and loops going on over or under the guitar but I'd also like to be able to get a wide range of sounds going on as opposed to it sounding similar each time I turn it on. I guess I'm worried that I'll be really limited if I can't manipulate it by hand or repatch it during a set.

Thanks!
noisejockey
I've played my guitar through the Coco before, including live with prepared guitar, as has Hainbach.

If you want to use your expression pedals, you need to first convert the cable format to banana, using something like the Low-Gain UTL1/2 or similar format jumbler. You may be challenged by its output only being 0-3V, and the Coco can accept a wider range than that. I wouldn't bother with MIDI, to be honest, unless you have very specific ideas in mind. You might consider momentary switches to trigger things as opposed to sending CV, just for something different.

To be honest, the cross-modulation chaos that is available to you feels like that should handle a lot of your chaotic evolutions. That's what the Quantussy is there for, and is amazing at. I found that I didn't need to do much wiggling with it live, but your needs may be different. Patching just one CV into the green input for chaos modulation might give you enough variation. It's not just using your hands that's an issue: You need to split the cognitive load between playing and effects manipulation. Simpler, in my experience, is usually better.

A pulse into skip can help with time-synched delays; there's a thread on that here on Muffwiggler somewhere.

I recently sold my Coco so I can't look at it or experiment to give more advice...
megamaeng
noisejockey wrote:
I've played my guitar through the Coco before, including live with prepared guitar, as has Hainbach


Awesome! Thanks for your advice and insight noisejockey! I really love that performance, definitely up my alley tho I'm a bit more abrasive in my playing. I saw Hainbach's earlier as well which inspired me to consider this route instead of the patchwork of pedals I was considering.

I 100% agree that simpler is better, and I'd love to have everything controlled by a couple footswitches and expression pedal. I didn't realize that the chaos modulation had a cv input - that would give me enough variation I would think. Does that mean that the knob is static but that I can manipulate a single vco via 1 of the middle green inputs, and that would modulates the other vco's? Or am I missing where there is cv input for the master chaos and vco speed of the quantussy? If I can have the quantussy do all the heavy lifting and just be able to manipulate it as a whole that would be perfect.

Did you find that you had to clear out the loop while performing live and if so, were you able to do that without having to go through the dolby switch and input level process?

If I can avoid having to use midi that would be great. I'd love to put my expression pedal and maybe some DIY cv foot switches into the lowgain format converter and have as few controls as possible for sure.

I'd have to think if it works, that it would be worth it over a bunch of guitar pedals trying to do similar stuff. Very happy to hear that you didn't have to do much wiggling with it live

Thanks! Guinness ftw!
megamaeng
thanks to some very patient and useful pm's from aethersprite I think I figured out how to at least get started with it in a guitar rig. I'm going to treat the left and right delay as separate delays that I can feed into each other when I want. But basically I'm going to have one on a more tame setting and the other on more bonkers level. I'm going to do most of the modulation using the quantussy and dedicate petals to each delay line. I'll use my dual expression pedal which I can set in reverse polarity from each other to basically FM the "master" petal for each delay line. Between switching between delay lines and FMing individual petals, I think I'll have a wide variety of sounds.

As far as buffers go, I'll start with setting the feedback below noon where the buffer will clear out on its own. that way I won't have to worry about the clear out procedure. at times I'll crouch down and trigger the infinite loop and tweak the chaos knob.

plus I can take the unused quantussy cv and send to some of my other pedals for even more mangling. SlayerBadger!

I'd still love to hear opinions on what works well with guitar
noisejockey
The idea of driving other pedals with the quantussy is killer. Way more expressive, assuming the expression pedal voltage range can be achieved.

You sound well on your way to have this all sorted, which is great, but as per your question, I didn't use looping at all. I just used delays with very long repeats. Made the whole effort a lot simpler, and it was the prepared guitar that was on the Coco, so between the wireless mouse and eBow and other stuff I had sustained textured for days anyway.
Hainbach
Hello!

For CV control of pedals with the Coco, here is a schematic for a passive voltage divider Brian Neunaber sent me:


"It sounds like you can adjust the SQ-1 for a maximum output voltage of 3.3V and wire up an adapter cable to the ExP. Connect the adjustable voltage (+) to the tip contact of the 1/4" plug and common (-) to the sleeve contact. Use a TRS plug for the ExP and leave the ring unconnected.

For the Coco, you will need a passive voltage divider, which I have shown here with suggested resistor values:




Again, use a TRS plug and leave the ring unconnected. This will scale the 0-9V range to 0-3.3V for the ExP expression inputs.

Hope this helps!
Brian Neunaber"

Disclaimer: I read that the voltage of the Coco swings from 0-9V, have not actually measured it. Also I sadly haven gotten around to builiding said divider.

Hope this helps![/img]
megamaeng
thanks noisejockey and hainbach! I really appreciate all your help.

Noisejockey, I'm going to take your lead and advice and not worry about the loops. I'm happy with crazy delays. I can always manually reach down and record a loop if I want to do some tweaking instead of playing.

Hainbach, that's really awesome! I'm going to have to figure out how to do that. I'm assuming that works for any expression input. If so, my mind is spinning right now. The boss MS-3 has 2 expression inputs and per preset allows you to assign up to 8 parameters to each expression input. This is spread out over internal effects parameters or midi cc. So theoretically if I take 2 outputs from the coco into the ms-3, I can have 16 unique scalable and offset parameters per patch, not to mention all the craziness going on in the coco woah

Even if I only do 1 and use an expression pedal for the other 8 that is pretty insane.

I went ahead and ordered a coco! Thanks to everyone who helped make it an easy decision smile

edit: I also ordered one of those low gain format converters to go from banana to 1/4. I can probably do this voltage dividing inside the box right? And all i have to do is use an insert cable with the tip plug connected to banana via the resistors and the trs plug into expression right?
wednesdayayay
but why not worry about loops?!

my friend the green inputs on the bottom of the coco (next to the individual looping buttons) is the CV input to indefinitely loop whatever is in the buffers

with a dual expression pedal Im sure you will find it very easy to find the threshold at which the loops get turned on


I think it is a fairly low threshold as from what I remember when using triangle waves the LEDs that represent if the cocos are acting as delay or looper stays on more than off

when I had a V1 coco to do foot looping I had to pull the switches out of the sides and clip onto their leads

this is so much easier

when I play bass through the coco I use a cable that is stereo 1/8 on one end for coco and 1/4 mono on the other end for my bass

alternatively if you had a 1/4 mono to 1/8 mono you (or even the same cable as above) could plug into the piezo input and have an additional volume control (manual) you would also have to patch the guitar signal to the green coco inputs though


im states away from my coco currently but I can help out some after tuesday if you need
megamaeng
you bring up a good point wednesdayayay. For me, it wasn't so much worrying about capturing a loop, which I would LOVE to do. It was more about being able to clear out a loop while still playing the guitar.

From what I can read, to effectively clear out a loop, it's a procedure that involves zeroing out the input knob and the spin the delay knob to the fastest, to quickly cycle out the stuff in the buffer. Both of those seem to require me to physically handle the coco or at the very least have cv foot control of speed, input gain, and loop record.

you've opened up a bunch more questions from me tho smile Is muting the signal sent to the coco quiet enough or does the input knob have to physically be at 0? Also, am I worried too much about clearing out the buffer? I guess I have no problem if the buffer just decays away with the newly recorded stuff when it goes back into delay mode. Now that I think of it, that's prob how it works and I definitely don't need clean buffers after going back into delay mode since I'm just going for crazy noise walls anyway. But I'd like it to clear out on its own fairly quickly if I decide to mute the signal to the coco, riff out for awhile, and then kick the coco back on. Which now makes me wonder, does the coco have a fixed feedback amount and that the decay time is just based on the speed of the delay?

One more question about the loop sample cv inputs. Is it a toggle like the button? or does it just stay on with the cv above the threshold and turn off when it goes below? It sounds like it's not a toggle via cv which would kill my just thought of idea to use the piezo input to create a contact mic footstomp loop activator.

thanks for the tip about the inputs. I was thinking about using my loop switcher and be able to use each delay individually, or in series. Do you guys think I'll be giving up a lot by not having a parallel option? Stereo isn't really a concern since the rest of my signal flow is mono. I could run in parallel tho with a boss ls-2 or something.

btw, i tried to just run an insert cable from my cv expression pedal with the ring plug connected, to the MS-3 expression input with the trs side and it doesn't seem to like it. Might be for the better tho, that might be too much modulation haha. I still might run a moogerfooger filter after the coco for some quantussy modulated filter fun Rockin' Banana!
Doublecoolbossman
I butchered a momentary footswitch, chopping off the TS cable on the end and replacing with a banana on each wire. Then, one banana is connected to the green for looping and the other to the ground jack. This allows for foot control of looping/ punching in.

I imagine (though I haven't tried) this could work to decrease feedback volume. One to ground and the other to the feedback input. Additionally, I would posit if you had a positive voltage (or would it still be ground?) source you could use this method to speed up the time. Then if you had a spdt (or dpdt? The one that allows you to control 2 things with one switch) momentary footswitch you could set it up to where a holding the switch down would both increase delay speed and decrease fb volume simultaneously, clearing the buffer.

As time permits (which it often doesn't) I will test these hypotheses and report back.
megamaeng
That sounds like it could work! I could even use my dual expression cv pedal which has +5 heel on one output and +5 toe on the other to basically increase input gain while decreasing time, and vice versa, which would allow me to clear out the buffer. Tho it would then restrict my ability to have the quantussy modulate the speed as it would have to be fixed to the expression pedal, which I'd prob not want to give up. Ideally the answer will be that you don't have to clear out the buffers when you go from loop to delay.

Did you use just a simple passive momentary footswitch for your loop/punch in control? If so that's awesome because I have a ton of those lying around.

One other thing I successfully tested today is that the ehx 8 step program works with controlling expression input of the MS-3 so my ability to modulate the parameters of the internal effects with the coco is back on! It accepts cv input to control depth, rate, glide, or sequence length so I can feed it with a coco output. If there's no sequence running on the 8 step, I can use it as a straight cv to expression converter with attenuation, or with a sequence running I can modulate the coco modulation! Plus I can have the 8 step program settings saved in presets that I can call up per patch on the MS-3. I'm trying not to get too greedy and use 2 for the dual expression inputs as well as use one to sequence cv inputs of the coco. That might be a bit tooo much haha.
wednesdayayay
I'm heading home tonight and should be able to do some testing and maybe a video tomorrow to explain better and also to make sure I'm giving you correct info

yes you are worrying too much about clearing the buffer
when to loop mode isn't engaged it acts as a delay therefore unless you have the feedback up at noon or higher then the loop will fade out over time through your feedback level

there is no reason to change the speed either

however if you want to QUICKLY change the buffer make sure you are in delay mode and turn the speed up (this is good for when you record really long delays/loops as it makes the decay process faster but again it isn't necessary as you could just let it naturally decay away in the delay)


each coco has two volume knobs

each coco can either be in delay or looping modes
in delay mode knob 1 is volume of the input and knob 2 is the feedback amount at noon you will be able to indefinitely loop whatever is in the buffer
higher than noon and each repetition gets louder instead of fading away

in loop mode knob 1 acts the same and knob 2 acts as a master volume knob for the loop

so if you want to fade out your wall of noise as a loop simply bring the volume down and play what you want with nothing underneath. if you wanted to then bring back the volume (of course you can CV control volume levels as well) just turn knob 2 up and you will hear the loop again

another option would be to disengage the loop mode then turn knob 2 (feedback because that coco is in delay mode) down
then keep playing that way you have a fresh buffer to start with and you don't have to hear it decaying away

the cool thing about this is that you could after playing with no loop for a while press the loop button and turn the loop volume up. since the coco is constantly recording sounds into the buffer (in delay mode) even if the feedback is all the way down you can capture what you have been recording!

so with all that in mind you can tell there isn't a fixed feedback amount
the decay time is set by the speed the decay amount is set by the feedback knob

yes the loop buttons are set by a CV threshold and don't have any extra toggle logic
I once started making what I was calling a piezo charging station
it worked like a balloon where when you pressed on the piezo you slowly raised the CV but it also leaked out over time (set by a knob) it was essentially just caps,knobs,resistors, and a piezo\
this would be a fun footpedal/moulation source for this looping activity!

use an alligator clip to banana cable to connect the ground from your pedals output to the ground of the coco then your modulation should work (at least that should work i think)

it is so much fun to play with guitar and bass!
megamaeng
NICE!! Yes I think this is all making much more sense and coming together quite nicely!

Your piezo balloon idea sounds awesome! I think for the time being that I'll keep it simple regarding the coco. Meaning I'll let it do most of the work on its own. But your idea of cv controlling the loop record and feedback volume is solid. If that's the case, I could even put it at the end of my chain and run it stereo to my dual cab rig. I'm sure a large part of the awesomeness of the coco is the stereo aspect of it, even if it's a bit lost in a live setting.

I think I'm going to turn my attention to adding a couple cv effects pedals and calling it a day. I'm kind of giving up on my idea of modulating the internal effects of my ms-3 because it can't keep up with really fast modulation, and I'd rather not menu dive to assign things. I'm thinking about incorporating the moogerfooger filter and freqbox. Does anyone know what the voltage range of the coco cv is? The moogs are mainly 0-5v or -5 to +5 on some inputs. Just wondering if it's plug and play compatible with a format converter.
Doublecoolbossman
Yes, simple passive momentary footswitches are what I used. I think the voltage ranges have been posted here somewhere...
wednesdayayay
i believe 0-9v (depending on if you are using battery or wallwart)
megamaeng
Doublecoolbossman wrote:
Yes, simple passive momentary footswitches are what I used. I think the voltage ranges have been posted here somewhere...


I guess I'm missing something here. How does a passive switch work to trigger looping when it's expecting cv? Is there some voodoo trickery going on? Because if this works, I'd love to be able to take my TS momentary switches and trigger the loops and maybe even flip or skip.

or are you talking about DIY'ing switches that have 9V power running through them, which I could prob do as well. Maybe a set of latching and momentary switches with led indicators and attenuator pots on them. Prob getting into "too complicated for a live gig territory" here.

When I get the coco, the goal might be to patch it up in a way where I can have 2 switches for bypass and loop/delay, and a "master" controller where I can have a single expression pedal to sweep through.
Doublecoolbossman
This should help. There are two wires coming from this nectar brand pedal.
The white banana goes to ground and the yellow goes to green loop input (though it doesn't really matter which goes where). Stepping on the footswitch makes the connection from one to the other.
I have to press the black loop button after plugging the pedal in to get it to work as desired.

You could also use this to momentarily send modulation (from quantussy) to whatever.

[/img]
megamaeng
Thanks! I'm going to have to give this a try when I get the coco! And great idea as a momentary "unmute" pedal for modulation!
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