feedback looping

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22tape
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feedback looping

Post by 22tape » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:00 am

hey guys. one thing i miss about my pedal setup is feedback looping. i know you could do it with some mixer tricks, or other modules with two inputs. the stilton adapter's fourth channel will be able to do it...as well as malekko's upcoming delay. but i'm wondering, is there is a specific module for feedback looping, ala Barge Concept's VFB2

http://www.bargeconcepts.com/vfb1.html

it looks like Cwejman INS-2MX VCA can do it...but damn that's pricey.

thanks!

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felix
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Post by felix » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:12 am

Harvestman has a matrix mixer coming at some point in the future. A patch here and there and you've got a pretty complicated feedback mixer.

Am I a shill for harvestman tonight or what!? :hihi:
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Post by 22tape » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:18 am

felix wrote:Harvestman has a matrix mixer coming at some point in the future. A patch here and there and you've got a pretty complicated feedback mixer.

Am I a shill for harvestman tonight or what!? :hihi:
:hihi:

i'm right there with you man. the tyme sefari is what started my modular sickness :sb:

he's doing a matrix mixer huh? any links around :hyper:

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felix
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Post by felix » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:21 am

No none yet, I've just seen the picture from his little brochure card.

I have a feeling the Hertz Donut is due out before it, so might not be until sometime next year.
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Post by 22tape » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:40 am

felix wrote:No none yet, I've just seen the picture from his little brochure card.

I have a feeling the Hertz Donut is due out before it, so might not be until sometime next year.
cool.

i'm just wondering...why is the INS-2MX so expensive? i know cwejman modules are all pricey, and i've heard that they're quality, and I can understand if sound generator and processing modules are a bit more expensive, but a vca with a send/return/mix for $460?

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Post by felix » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:49 am

I honestly have no idea. I think the same thing about their mixer.

I have heard from countless sources how well built they are, and they certainly are very compact (the thinnest modules i've seen) and apparently use a lot of high quality audio components. The VCAs used in nice mixers are pretty pricey, so that would make sense too. They certainly sound top notch.

dkcg could elaborate more on their quality, he's got several cwejman now.
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Post by 22tape » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:06 am

felix wrote:I honestly have no idea. I think the same thing about their mixer.

I have heard from countless sources how well built they are, and they certainly are very compact (the thinnest modules i've seen) and apparently use a lot of high quality audio components. The VCAs used in nice mixers are pretty pricey, so that would make sense too. They certainly sound top notch.

dkcg could elaborate more on their quality, he's got several cwejman now.
yeah, i've heard their build quality is top notch...but are other eurorack modules' build quality that sub-par versus cwejman's to justify that price difference? ya, i'm curious if it does sound THAT much better. though i suppose it doesn't really matter (to me)...i love modulars for their imperfections! if i wanted pristine sound, i'd go back to software only....

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Post by wetterberg » Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:48 am

metalbox does an ill matrix mixer. drop them an email if you want it in euro, it's doable.

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Post by Soy Sos » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:41 am

I personally don't think it's necessary to buy a special module to do it.
The awesome, cheap, easy and fun way to do it is with:

An amplifier (the ones I use will boost your signal from 1 to 500 times)
An attenuator (from off to unity gain)
Some multiples and 1/8 to 1/4 adapters.

1. Out of the attenuator to drop the line level down for the stompboex input.
2. Out of the stompboxes in to an amplifier to bring it back to line level.
3. Some mults to patch the output to the input and to your monitor.
4. Twist away and have fun!

I'm sure the Stilton Adapter will be great, but you may already have everything you need in your modular now.

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Post by zerosum » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:47 am

is there is a specific module for feedback looping, ala Barge Concept's VFB2
You could get one of these,
Image

Or you could build one:
Image

I have two fuzz pedals with built in feedback loops,

Image

Image

It will also track to a sequencer and make a bad oscillator which is fun.

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dkcg
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Post by dkcg » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:35 am

felix wrote:I honestly have no idea. I think the same thing about their mixer.

I have heard from countless sources how well built they are, and they certainly are very compact (the thinnest modules i've seen) and apparently use a lot of high quality audio components. The VCAs used in nice mixers are pretty pricey, so that would make sense too. They certainly sound top notch.

dkcg could elaborate more on their quality, he's got several cwejman now.
I have a few Cwejmans now, thy are built like tanks with lots of little details all thought out, I bet Wowa's factory and house are immaculate. :)

I would say that the value would be how anal retentive the user is, if you don't mind looseness, very gritty analog that's more like taming a patch than engineering a patch, cwejman might not be worth the money to you. But if you do a lot of quieter, precise I need this LFO to sync with this env and the LFO to pan mixer from left to right so I need an inverse saw, and at the half way voltage point the comparator triggers the blah biddy blah blah, then you might find cwejmans to be useful in that they are precise and fairly predictable (in a good way). Now that I have some, I don't think I could do w/o the cwejmans, unless I go to a buchla or serge.

I was afraid I would have buyer's remorse after I bought my first module, the MX-4S, but when I think of how much something like a good 4 channel mixer is, but add the cost of shrinking it into a module, adding CV control, and just how quick the VCAs in even the mixer is, and I haven't tried, but I wouldn't be surprised if it can mix CVs in stereo too, that's how thought out his shit seems to be. Every time I plug in those 4 phases of the PH-4 to the panning of even the simplest "boink" looping noise panning and being filtered in perfect 90degree phases. Any though of remorse goes away. Especially since all i hear is the panning and signal.

They are nice modules, they are pricey, they look pricey to make in comparison to all my other modules, but if you are anal retentive sometimes, they are worth it as long as you can afford it and pay rent too. :)

The more Cwejman modules I buy, the more I want an S1MK2... :help: :lol:

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Post by 22tape » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:39 am

wetterberg wrote:metalbox does an ill matrix mixer. drop them an email if you want it in euro, it's doable.
ya, i've looked at that one before. looks great. i thought they built it frac only? they do kits....but the last thing i need is to buy another kit that i never get the chance to build... :bang:

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Post by 22tape » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:43 am

thanks soy sos and zerosum. ya, there are plenty of options in pedal land for feedback loops. looking to keep in the modular. thanks!

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Post by 22tape » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:52 am

dkcg wrote:
felix wrote:I honestly have no idea. I think the same thing about their mixer.

I have heard from countless sources how well built they are, and they certainly are very compact (the thinnest modules i've seen) and apparently use a lot of high quality audio components. The VCAs used in nice mixers are pretty pricey, so that would make sense too. They certainly sound top notch.

dkcg could elaborate more on their quality, he's got several cwejman now.
I have a few Cwejmans now, thy are built like tanks with lots of little details all thought out, I bet Wowa's factory and house are immaculate. :)

I would say that the value would be how anal retentive the user is, if you don't mind looseness, very gritty analog that's more like taming a patch than engineering a patch, cwejman might not be worth the money to you. But if you do a lot of quieter, precise I need this LFO to sync with this env and the LFO to pan mixer from left to right so I need an inverse saw, and at the half way voltage point the comparator triggers the blah biddy blah blah, then you might find cwejmans to be useful in that they are precise and fairly predictable (in a good way). Now that I have some, I don't think I could do w/o the cwejmans, unless I go to a buchla or serge.

I was afraid I would have buyer's remorse after I bought my first module, the MX-4S, but when I think of how much something like a good 4 channel mixer is, but add the cost of shrinking it into a module, adding CV control, and just how quick the VCAs in even the mixer is, and I haven't tried, but I wouldn't be surprised if it can mix CVs in stereo too, that's how thought out his shit seems to be. Every time I plug in those 4 phases of the PH-4 to the panning of even the simplest "boink" looping noise panning and being filtered in perfect 90degree phases. Any though of remorse goes away. Especially since all i hear is the panning and signal.

They are nice modules, they are pricey, they look pricey to make in comparison to all my other modules, but if you are anal retentive sometimes, they are worth it as long as you can afford it and pay rent too. :)

The more Cwejman modules I buy, the more I want an S1MK2... :help: :lol:
there is no doubt that they have some innovative designs :hail: but $460 for a vca with a send/return/mix? i'd rather buy a T-Resonator and 60 lottery tickets with that cash!

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Post by dkcg » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

You got me curious about how fast the VCA in the mixer is, so I did this little test.

http://joekickass.com/donk/sounds/sound ... reqMod.mp3

There's one sine wave going straight into the mixer, the panning is controlled by the PH-4 which goes into audio range and does the random melody near the middle (M24 generates frequency CVs). The levels of the channel input is controlled by the DLFO which starts with LFO2 in audio range, LFO1 in, um LFO range outputting a ringmod signal to the mixer levels. I tweak shit around, add randomness to the LFO, etc. 4 modules used and no filters. As a bonus, I tried to see if I could mix CVs in stereo, and yes, you can mix CVs with the MX-4S, how cool is that shit! Seems like a trick behind Cwejman modules is that don't let their name fool you, they can do more than what they were "supposed" to.

You know, I was eyeballing this INS-2MX at noisebug's website, they have it listed cheaper, and it is new. I got my ringmod there, brand new a little cheaper. I know they only have one...so if you want one a little cheaper...

A cheaper alternative, and you could still do stereo, would be the PlanB Model 9. 4 channels with attenuated outputs in, 2 channels out. No CV mix built into the module tho, so you would still need a VCA or 2. I use it for feedback loops.
Last edited by dkcg on Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by dkcg » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:42 pm

22tape wrote: there is no doubt that they have some innovative designs :hail: but $460 for a vca with a send/return/mix? i'd rather buy a T-Resonator and 60 lottery tickets with that cash!
I bet you could use it like some sort of waveshaper too, and I bet CVs work well through it too.

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Post by 22tape » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:18 pm

dkcg wrote:
22tape wrote: there is no doubt that they have some innovative designs :hail: but $460 for a vca with a send/return/mix? i'd rather buy a T-Resonator and 60 lottery tickets with that cash!
I bet you could use it like some sort of waveshaper too, and I bet CVs work well through it too.
ya, i used to have both the t res and m res before. stupid me, i really regret getting rid of those. i sold them to go modular. i haven't been able to get that sound out of any module combination. especially when using the t res and m res together...and feeding back one of the outs back into itself, or back into the other! and the sound? fecking beautiful. the range of sounds that you can get from those are ridiculous--waveshaping/feedback/rumbing to screaching filter/delay/comb filter etc. one might think that having both the t res and m res is overkill. not at all. they have completely different sounds. i tried to replicate an m res setting on a t res by zeroing out the delay fx. they aren't the same. not sure how to explain the difference. the m res is filthy. the t res' sound seems more refined. okay, i'll shut up now. i've gone way off my own topic!

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Post by wetterberg » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:19 pm

dkcg, very cool demo - but there does seem to be quite a large amount of distortion going on in the right channel?

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Post by dkcg » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:50 pm

wetterberg wrote:dkcg, very cool demo - but there does seem to be quite a large amount of distortion going on in the right channel?
My compressor was getting overloaded or it's the mackie getting overloaded. I wasn't watching the levels right, that was my 3rd try, 1st try I forgot to hit record, 2nd try I only recorded the right channel, the 1st was the better. I'll try something later tonight, I gotta get out and get some fresh air right now.

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Post by 22tape » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:10 pm

dkcg wrote:
wetterberg wrote:dkcg, very cool demo - but there does seem to be quite a large amount of distortion going on in the right channel?
My compressor was getting overloaded or it's the mackie getting overloaded. I wasn't watching the levels right, that was my 3rd try, 1st try I forgot to hit record, 2nd try I only recorded the right channel, the 1st was the better. I'll try something later tonight, I gotta get out and get some fresh air right now.
thanks for taking the time to do that, by the way! gonna listen to it later. i only have laptop speakers right now.

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Post by 22tape » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:17 pm

dkcg wrote:
22tape wrote: and I bet CVs work well through it too.
you got me thinking...is it possible to process cv with them? it's 9v powered.

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Post by dkcg » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:45 pm

Someone must have bought the one from Noisebug, it's not listed anymore. No more cheap ones. :confused:
Last edited by dkcg on Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by dkcg » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:48 pm

22tape wrote:
dkcg wrote: and I bet CVs work well through it too.
you got me thinking...is it possible to process cv with them? it's 9v powered.
The stereo mixer did very well. It was nice seeing a visual representation of my LFOs w/o LEDs too. The audio level went up and down with the LFO. I'll look at it through a scope some other time. But nothing smelled like smoke or buzzing or noise out of the ordinary. You should read that interview Hexfix did, he actually did a pretty good interview with some useful information about the modules.

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Post by governor blacksnake » Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:32 pm

The Stilton Adaptor ships with four jumpers pre-installed that normal the channel outputs to the next input. So, without anything patched into the inputs feedback loops can happen automatically once you've got four devices inserted.

The Matrix mixer design is pretty straightforward (4 ins, 3 outs), but it has a header on the back that can cable over to the Stilton's jumper block. This makes it so that the feedback signals normalled back into the Stilton inputs are controlled by the Matrix, so you can put bipolar mixes of all channels into the inputs. With no matrix mixer attached, you can do a limited form of this blending (current channel and previous channel) by using the wet/dry mix control.

The two modules together operate as a modular "feedback console".

I'm testing a bunch of stiltons tonight, the first lot ships to AH really soon. The Matrix Mixer will definitely be out soon, it's very simple to execute.

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Post by timmah » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:17 pm

Can the matrix mixer be used standalone or does it require the stilton for inputs/outputs?

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