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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Placement of Spring Reverb within patch structure?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> 5U Format Modules  
Author Placement of Spring Reverb within patch structure?
Rex Coil 7
(pre purchase decisions going on here).

I'm wanting to use the Dot Com Q115 spring reverb module/tank. I'm aware that spring reverb tanks are noise magnets, that said I'd been thinking about it's placement within a given patch.

It seems as though I'd read a comment by someone (??) here in Muffwigglers once that mentioned Keith Emerson placed reverb pre-VCF. As far as noise goes, this makes sense ... rolling off hiss with the LPF (Q150).

In my own system, I have a gain management system going on between the VCOs and the VCF section. It's quite simple to set up given amounts of overdrive or clipping there. It seems as though the place to insert reverb is ~there~, after the drive circuits and before the VCFs. Just sortof thinking out loud on that part.

Re; reverb placement within a patch, any thoughts or experience to share?

Thanks much. Rex.
Navs
Never given the noise aspect a second thought - it's a spring reverb, after all.

Place them outside the patch for classic reverb duties. Place them inside a feedback loop (frequency shifter, FM, S&H) for wailing banshees. Or keep them outside the box, unconnected to anything except the output mixer and whack the crap out of the springs for explosions like Doctor Scott twisted lol
hsosdrum
That's the beauty of modular — just patch it in wherever you want in the signal chain and listen to the results. If it doesn't sound the way you want, patch it into a different place in the signal chain until you get what you're after.

My own experience with my Q115 is limited to trying it patched before and after the VCA (but always after the VCF). It's easier to overdrive* the Q115 when it's patched after the VCA, especially with the Drive control is set higher than 5 or 6. I also notice that certain pitch inputs will overdrive it while others won't, which is probably related to the physical properties of the springs (certain notes will create frequencies that are harmonically related to the lengths of the springs, increasing their physical resonance).

After reading your post I'll definitely try patching the Q115 before the VCF to see how that may change things around.

*By overdrive I mean cause the reverb effect to resonate excessively, not simply add an increase in harmonic distortion.
seditionary
Yes -- Last in chain for classic reverb. Before a filter if you want to filter it. Before a VCA if you want to amplify it, etc. etc. Experimentation is one part of what makes sound making so fun and so beautiful. w00t love
Rex Coil 7
Oh .. so that's what all those patchcords do, huh? razz

Ok folks ... I understand that modulars are reconfigurable, but I suppose overstating the obvious is something I asked for here! So I'll provide some context to narrow down the answers a bit.

What may help you to know is that I'll be taking the Q115 module apart to combine it's innards with another module (or two) so as to share panel space with another circuit. I'm in the midst of some normalizing some things and combining others in an effort to create some circuit density within my rather small cabinet (2x14sp). Generally, the I/O jacks are replaced with N/C (normally closed) switching jacks to accommodate over-riding whatever normalizing I've done by inserting a patch cable ... none of the modular flexibility is lost this way. I've already got a fairly good start at some of the normalizing, the next phase involves the audio path post VCO mixer.

So my questions are aimed at deciding what to normal to what, regarding the reverb module circuit, attempting to do some planning here.

I've read that modular spring reverb systems add a good deal of tonal coloring, I'm looking forward to that!

I can also install toggle switches to re-route the reverb's normalized placement, to some degree. As far as post-VCA placement, I have a number of reverb/delay FX to cover that.

I suppose I'll go ahead and make the purchase, and after it arrives I'll do some experimenting with placement. Since there are several different suggestions offered, that tells me there's more than one "best" answer.

Thanks! thumbs up
dan_p
I really like using reverb before the filter. Using the filter to create nice gating effects works well. It can be really cool as on short sounds the tail of the verb is filtered, love this with sample an hold stepped modulation of cutoff. If I was going to normalise something I think tying it to a a filter with a pre/post switch would be useful.
ranix
I wouldn't normalize an effect like a reverb or delay. You can if you want to I guess. Whether you want it before or after the filter or before or after the vca depends on what you're doing. In the audio path, obviously. Or maybe not so obviously? I've never tried to put cv through a spring reverb before.
alternating.bit
Noise is always welcomed in my studio. Miley Cyrus
Great module the Q115 is.
kindredlost
I like to use a spring reverb before a VCF, but it matters which filter. Since I like to run a reverb through a freq shifter, phaser, flanger etc., as well it is important to control the gain at certain harmonic overtones.

I've used a notch filter and often an FFB and even run through a comb filter like in the Waldorf MicroQ to give the sound some extra SciFi mojo. So it isn't a bad idea at all, but I'd also tend to agree with ranix about not dedicating it as a normalized route. It really matters if you are dedicating the reverb to the single voice (as you seems to indicate) and have no use for it as a final effect.

I'd also pick a state variable filter (Q107) or at least something close like an S.E.M. clone or Steiner for more control. A plain-jane LPF is the last thing I'd consider except in favor of rolling off the highs in a noise suppression manner.

If you are looking for the classic tones associated with vintage rock methods (you cited Emerson) then the overtone control outlined above is really of no concern and you should carry on with pre or post LPF in whatever manner you choose. The gain of certain frequencies is part of the sound in that case.
boothnavy
I like it at the end for classic long and wandering sounds, but before the VCA if I want to create a gated-type reverb sound, as the EG would cause the VCA to clamp down on the decay of the reverb.

Never actually tried it before the VCF... Thanks for the suggestion!

As alternating bit previously stated, noise not really an issue for me razz
unrecordings
Have a look at the Neural Agonizer, there's a block diagram in the manual somewhere, it gives a pretty good idea of what can be achieved with a spring tank beyond the usual boingy reverb
noddyspuncture
Rex Coil 7 wrote:


It seems as though I'd read a comment by someone (??) here in Muffwigglers once that mentioned Keith Emerson placed reverb pre-VCF. As far as noise goes, this makes sense ... rolling off hiss with the LPF (Q150).


Playing in my ELP tribute and using the Modular Moog, I have experimented with this quite a bit - and have found that putting the reverb after the filter but before the VCA gets me the Emerson sounds.

Before the filter just didn't seem to work...!

Cheerz
Tom
Rex Coil 7
noddyspuncture wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:


It seems as though I'd read a comment by someone (??) here in Muffwigglers once that mentioned Keith Emerson placed reverb pre-VCF. As far as noise goes, this makes sense ... rolling off hiss with the LPF (Q150).


Playing in my ELP tribute and using the Modular Moog, I have experimented with this quite a bit - and have found that putting the reverb after the filter but before the VCA gets me the Emerson sounds.

Before the filter just didn't seem to work...!

Cheerz
Tom
You must be the person that made the comment I was thinking of. Thanks for clearing that up. I obviously had it remembered wrong.

Must be CRS sneaking up on me at 57 yrs old (~ahem~ ... CRS = Can't Remember Shit).

Dead Banana d'oh!
CZ Rider
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
I obviously had it remembered wrong.

Must be CRS sneaking up on me at 57 yrs old (~ahem~ ... CRS = Can't Remember Shit).

Dead Banana d'oh!

Nope, excellent memory. hihi
I posted that observation some time ago. Was an old pic a fellow modular Moog owner shared on the VSE forum. In that photo you can see the patch from the cp3 to the 905 reverb, then patched into the 904a filter. Had a higher rez pic, but this is all I could find.


A somewhat unconventional patch I used was patching a positive feedback loop from the cp3 output through the 905 back into the cp3 mixer. Turned fully clockwise had little effect. But turning the large knob CCW would introduce the original signal back into the mixer for overdrive. Fun live doing Berlin school sequences for that extra grit when needed. Rockin' Banana!
Rex Coil 7
noddyspuncture wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:


It seems as though I'd read a comment by someone (??) here in Muffwigglers once that mentioned Keith Emerson placed reverb pre-VCF. As far as noise goes, this makes sense ... rolling off hiss with the LPF (Q150).


Playing in my ELP tribute and using the Modular Moog, I have experimented with this quite a bit - and have found that putting the reverb after the filter but before the VCA gets me the Emerson sounds.

Before the filter just didn't seem to work...!

Cheerz
Tom



CZ Rider wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
I obviously had it remembered wrong.

Must be CRS sneaking up on me at 57 yrs old (~ahem~ ... CRS = Can't Remember Shit).

Dead Banana d'oh!

Nope, excellent memory. hihi
I posted that observation some time ago. Was an old pic a fellow modular Moog owner shared on the VSE forum. In that photo you can see the patch from the cp3 to the 905 reverb, then patched into the 904a filter. Had a higher rez pic, but this is all I could find.


A somewhat unconventional patch I used was patching a positive feedback loop from the cp3 output through the 905 back into the cp3 mixer. Turned fully clockwise had little effect. But turning the large knob CCW would introduce the original signal back into the mixer for overdrive. Fun live doing Berlin school sequences for that extra grit when needed. Rockin' Banana!
Wow! So I'm not going nutso (err .. yet). Thanks for straightening me out on that. All things Keith interest me, so it's something that I gravitate towards in my topic searches. Your previous post about it must have been a product of one of those searches.

Since it appears that the reverb circuit is most useful in (essentially) two locations within a patch (pre VCF input mixer and pre-VCA input mixer), I believe I'll place access to it's controls and I/O roughly here, in the center strip. I'll normal the reverb's I/O to a toggle switch that will allow easy placement of the reverb in either location via the toggle, and .. per usual .. use switching jacks to permit defeating of the normaled connections. I'm thinking about placing the Ring Mod in the center as well, since it's something that gets moved around from patch to patch. As of now I've no plans to normal the Ring Mod to anything, it's just too danged versatile and it may be used in so many places.

Placing those two circuits' controls/jacks in that center strip centralizes them, making patching a little cleaner no matter where they're patched in, should the use patch cords comes into play.



The ring mod only uses three jacks, and the reverb only uses two knobs and two jacks (plus the source/destination toggle), so they'll fit into those locations nicely without looking too crowded. I'll see how that works out. PCB locations may be a little tricky, but my little cab has a good deal of space inside.

Thanks for all of the suggestions, everything said was taken into consideration and I appreciate the assistance!

thumbs up cool SlayerBadger!
noddyspuncture
CZ Rider wrote:

Nope, excellent memory. hihi
I posted that observation some time ago. Was an old pic a fellow modular Moog owner shared on the VSE forum. In that photo you can see the patch from the cp3 to the 905 reverb, then patched into the 904a filter. Had a higher rez pic, but this is all I could find.



That was the very photo I was studying when I experimented with the patch.. it's a very early shot, Keith has the Dexion frame for the Modular's stand and also the Hammond still has it's own original legs. I'm wondering if he himself was experimenting..? Do you reckon he had it patched like that all throughout his time using it live and on albums..? I'll go back and have another play but I do remember placing it there giving me a sound/timbre which I'd never heard on any ELP album or live recording..!
Rex Coil 7
noddyspuncture wrote:
.... That was the very photo I was studying when I experimented with the patch.. it's a very early shot, Keith has the Dexion frame for the Modular's stand and also the Hammond still has it's own original legs. I'm wondering if he himself was experimenting..? Do you reckon he had it patched like that all throughout his time using it live and on albums..? I'll go back and have another play but I do remember placing it there giving me a sound/timbre which I'd never heard on any ELP album or live recording..!
Yea, I was just now checking out a few videos of the Q115 reverb system myself. Every one of them has the insert point between the VCFs and the VCA, just as you said you do, Tom. Isn't that also the way you have it worked out in your "Tocatta sound" video?

Perhaps you're correct about that photo regarding Keith's experimenting. It is from "early days", back during the live Tarkus performances prior to WBMF when they were doing small venues, and things like Mussgorsky's Gates Of Kiev were still in their active set lists.

I'd be grateful if this gets sorted before I go drilling holes in that center strip and wiring things up.

Thanks tons.

cool
cornutt
A thought. Get a second VCA and envelope, and normal the gate in of that envelope to your keyboard (or whatever you use). Normal the reverb in between the VCAs. Now by setting the second envelope to a quick attack, 100% sustain, and a slow release, you can make the second VCA work like a noise gate; it'll shut off the hiss gradually after you release the note. Or, you can set it to a sharp release, if you want the gated-reverb effect.
Rex Coil 7
cornutt wrote:
A thought. Get a second VCA and envelope, and normal the gate in of that envelope to your keyboard (or whatever you use). Normal the reverb in between the VCAs. Now by setting the second envelope to a quick attack, 100% sustain, and a slow release, you can make the second VCA work like a noise gate; it'll shut off the hiss gradually after you release the note. Or, you can set it to a sharp release, if you want the gated-reverb effect.
I can do the same with just one VCA. I use a VCA as my "ouput stage" (last module in the chain). That said, just using the VCA's envelope per usual, placing the reverb between the last filter and the VCA will produce the exact same end result as the patch you've described. Yes, there are some advantages to your suggestion, there's no question there!

However my problem is that I simply do not have the space to add the reverb, another EG, and another VCA. I have precisely ONE SPACE left, and that will be taken by the reverb module.

RE; hiss control, most times my keyboard type patches use EG filter sweeps of some type, and usually the VCF EG release stage times out before the VCA EG does (which means I don't need long release times on the output VCA which would make the reverb's hiss show up) ... so I don't need to set the output VCA to release any longer than the filter does. The filter usually closes to the point of near silence anyhow, so setting the output VCA to longer release times than the filter isn't required for long release sounds (the filter's closed by then). That said, the VCA EG will time out soon enough to stop any audible hiss. I can still do gated reverb that way as well. Gotta make do with the 28space cab I have.

Or something like that ... hmmm.....

thumbs up

Had I more space available I would absolutely take your recommendation and execute it.

As it stands currently, I believe I'll place the reverb to the right of that last 4ch mixer that's next to that Q107 VCF (lower right hand corner). That mixer, and everything to it's left will have to be shifted one space to the left to permit installation of the reverb module (I'm removing the Ring Modulator module to make space for that ... the RM is on the lower right). For now, I've decided against repaneling the reverb module into the center strip, and instead just mount it in the cab. Y'know ... like regular folks. cool




smile
donkey for rent
Howdy!

I've run a few snappy Envelope CVs through the Q115 with some pretty knarly results...especially when using the CV to affect Filter Cutoff.
Rex Coil 7
donkey for rent wrote:
Howdy!

I've run a few snappy Envelope CVs through the Q115 with some pretty knarly results...especially when using the CV to affect Filter Cutoff.
Huh ... that almost seems as though it would be close to running a decaying envelope in to the VCF's cutoff control. I'm attempting to imagine how a "snappy" EG curve after running it through a reverb unit would look on a scope .... it's like it would have a decaying amplitude (voltage), much like a decaying envelope curve would.

Hard to envision ... I've made a note to try that once my synth is back in service.

Neat suggestion. thumbs up
Rex Coil 7
noddyspuncture wrote:
CZ Rider wrote:
.... In that photo you can see the patch from the cp3 to the 905 reverb, then patched into the 904a filter.....


..... Do you reckon he [Emerson] had it patched like that all throughout his time using it live and on albums..? I'll go back and have another play but I do remember placing it there giving me a sound/timbre which I'd never heard on any ELP album or live recording..!
(I highlighted Tom's comment to draw attention to it). Waiting to find out if Tom checked that out on his own Moog rig yet, and what his findings were. Being patient, he's got a life, so I don't expect him to get right to it. But it will be nice should he end up sharing any discoveries, one way or the other. If not, totally ok smile
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