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Clean and tidy, does it produce better music?
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Author Clean and tidy, does it produce better music?
criticalmonkey
i have 3 thoughts on this for me
1- every time i walk into a music mecca - sun studio, abbey road, and such - the one thing i notice is how functional and ready everything is - amazing things happen when organization is not a concern, it just is standard operating procedure -

2- if everything is possible, then anything can happen - and that can be overwhelming to work in, so routine comfort is super important - if i have to wonder how to make something happen then i waste energy fixing or avoiding or occasionally it can push me into a whole new thing - having well labeled patch bays make it easier to avoid the first 2 and encourage more of the 3rd

3 - if I'm doing 1 thing it is easy, everything goes. if i'm doing more than that, or with more than 1 collaborator, i really hate taking notes and trying to re-create things so i use lots of tools with recall to minimize - my gear purchases seem to be bi-polar on fully recall digital/computer or fully performance immediate in nature - prior or pending project influence is amazing
mousegarden
criticalmonkey wrote:
i have 3 thoughts on this for me
1- every time i walk into a music mecca - sun studio, abbey road, and such - the one thing i notice is how functional and ready everything is - amazing things happen when organization is not a concern, it just is standard operating procedure -

2- if everything is possible, then anything can happen - and that can be overwhelming to work in, so routine comfort is super important - if i have to wonder how to make something happen then i waste energy fixing or avoiding or occasionally it can push me into a whole new thing - having well labeled patch bays make it easier to avoid the first 2 and encourage more of the 3rd

3 - if I'm doing 1 thing it is easy, everything goes. if i'm doing more than that, or with more than 1 collaborator, i really hate taking notes and trying to re-create things so i use lots of tools with recall to minimize - my gear purchases seem to be bi-polar on fully recall digital/computer or fully performance immediate in nature - prior or pending project influence is amazing


Yeah, the worst kind of situation you can be in is when you don't know how to make something happen in "YOUR" studio for "YOU" It's and instant creativity killer trying to figure things out.
But, those studios you mentioned, like all commercial studios they have to be as flexible and adaptable as possible, things that are essential in these types of places are typically, patch bays, a large and diverse selection of equipment, staff that are familiar with lots of hardware and software, and the ability to be chameleon like, changing from one approach to another, a solo synth player, a string ensemble, a metal band etc.
As solo home recordists thankfully we don't have to take all that shit into consideration.
dubonaire
criticalmonkey wrote:
i have 3 thoughts on this for me
1- every time i walk into a music mecca - sun studio, abbey road, and such - the one thing i notice is how functional and ready everything is - amazing things happen when organization is not a concern, it just is standard operating procedure -

2- if everything is possible, then anything can happen - and that can be overwhelming to work in, so routine comfort is super important - if i have to wonder how to make something happen then i waste energy fixing or avoiding or occasionally it can push me into a whole new thing - having well labeled patch bays make it easier to avoid the first 2 and encourage more of the 3rd

3 - if I'm doing 1 thing it is easy, everything goes. if i'm doing more than that, or with more than 1 collaborator, i really hate taking notes and trying to re-create things so i use lots of tools with recall to minimize - my gear purchases seem to be bi-polar on fully recall digital/computer or fully performance immediate in nature - prior or pending project influence is amazing


Interesting comments, but in those mecca studios the plethora of choices was really to cater to different approaches. I'm always blown away when I hear mixing and mastering engineers talk about using outboard X to get an extra 1% of finesse on sound Y. There are 100s of years of combined knowledge wrapped up in those studios.
mousegarden
dubonaire wrote:
criticalmonkey wrote:
i have 3 thoughts on this for me
1- every time i walk into a music mecca - sun studio, abbey road, and such - the one thing i notice is how functional and ready everything is - amazing things happen when organization is not a concern, it just is standard operating procedure -

2- if everything is possible, then anything can happen - and that can be overwhelming to work in, so routine comfort is super important - if i have to wonder how to make something happen then i waste energy fixing or avoiding or occasionally it can push me into a whole new thing - having well labeled patch bays make it easier to avoid the first 2 and encourage more of the 3rd

3 - if I'm doing 1 thing it is easy, everything goes. if i'm doing more than that, or with more than 1 collaborator, i really hate taking notes and trying to re-create things so i use lots of tools with recall to minimize - my gear purchases seem to be bi-polar on fully recall digital/computer or fully performance immediate in nature - prior or pending project influence is amazing


Interesting comments, but in those mecca studios the plethora of choices was really to cater to different approaches. I'm always blown away when I hear mixing and mastering engineers talk about using outboard X to get an extra 1% of finesse on sound Y. There are 100s of years of combined knowledge wrapped up in those studios.


There was a time, and I remember it well, when I actually used to use studios, they were awful places. Nobody seemed to like being there, from amateur to professional musicians, we all hated the damn places. That was back in the 70's, as far as studios go, the worst time ever.
Unless you were a successful band with a deal who could afford your own sympathetic engineer, you were guaranteed to be pulled through a hedge backwards.
Engineers were dogmatic, self opinionated, bitter, chip on shoulder, and hated you because you were a successful musician, but in their eyes you had no talent and how dare you be in a better place than an engineer like me who has acres of talent and isn't being recognised for it. They looked down their noses at you, always hated your music, and made life as miserable for you as they possibly could. Me...while recording... "Can I have some reverb please" Engineer..."I wouldn't advise it, just play without it, we can ad it when we mix...Me...but I'd like to hear it now while I'm playing...Engineer...we never do that, can't you play without it? Me...look, no, I f*****g can't, I want to play the reverb, besides, who's paying for this f*****g session, just f*****g do it!
At this point one of us would walk out, never to return.
I tell you, that may seem exaggerated, but a lot of studios had that attitude back then, the engineers were always right and musicians were literally the scum of the earth, even though we were paying their wages.
listentoaheartbeat
dubonaire wrote:
I'm always blown away when I hear mixing and mastering engineers talk about using outboard X to get an extra 1% of finesse on sound Y.


I am convinced that they are bullshitting everyone to some extend. The top tier routine is more mundane than its reputation, at least from what I have seen. That is not to say that there aren't productions that pushed the limits in terms of finesse, fully embracing that extra 1% on all ends. But it's super rare I reckon.
synkrotron


Long video... Stick with it...
dubonaire
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
I'm always blown away when I hear mixing and mastering engineers talk about using outboard X to get an extra 1% of finesse on sound Y.


I am convinced that they are bullshitting everyone to some extend. The top tier routine is more mundane than its reputation, at least from what I have seen. That is not to say that there aren't productions that pushed the limits in terms of finesse, fully embracing that extra 1% on all ends. But it's super rare I reckon.


You could be right, I honestly don't know. I think it may apply more to things like mic'd drums and guitars etc. I think electronic instruments arrive at the mixing desk already 90% cooked compared to those instruments. But some of these guys are highly sought after and it can't be all snake oil.
listentoaheartbeat
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
I'm always blown away when I hear mixing and mastering engineers talk about using outboard X to get an extra 1% of finesse on sound Y.


I am convinced that they are bullshitting everyone to some extend. The top tier routine is more mundane than its reputation, at least from what I have seen. That is not to say that there aren't productions that pushed the limits in terms of finesse, fully embracing that extra 1% on all ends. But it's super rare I reckon.


You could be right, I honestly don't know. I think it may apply more to things like mic'd drums and guitars etc. I think electronic instruments arrive at the mixing desk already 90% cooked compared to those instruments. But some of these guys are highly sought after and it can't be all snake oil.


Well, that's because they are good at recording and mixing, which is a craft involving a lot of skill and knowledge. Microphone placement alone is incredibly sophisticated. However, it's when they talk about how using specific devices (that most engineers don't have access to) makes all the difference that I smell bullshit. Gear gets glorified all the way from hobbyists to top tier engineers, and more often than not it is simply all about solid craftsmanship.
mousegarden
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
I'm always blown away when I hear mixing and mastering engineers talk about using outboard X to get an extra 1% of finesse on sound Y.


I am convinced that they are bullshitting everyone to some extend. The top tier routine is more mundane than its reputation, at least from what I have seen. That is not to say that there aren't productions that pushed the limits in terms of finesse, fully embracing that extra 1% on all ends. But it's super rare I reckon.


When I was assisting classical sessions, the bullshit that was flying around was unbelievable. There was no way that any listener or buyer of the CD would even detect, in a million years, the unnecessary and minute changes that producers took a whole day to labour over.
"I say, we must have a Bricasti on that Aria, I couldn't possibly tolerate anything else, and that phrase in bar five of the chorus, it's slightly ahead of the beat by about 1 millisecond, can you edit that out?"

Bollocks.
dubonaire
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
I'm always blown away when I hear mixing and mastering engineers talk about using outboard X to get an extra 1% of finesse on sound Y.


I am convinced that they are bullshitting everyone to some extend. The top tier routine is more mundane than its reputation, at least from what I have seen. That is not to say that there aren't productions that pushed the limits in terms of finesse, fully embracing that extra 1% on all ends. But it's super rare I reckon.


You could be right, I honestly don't know. I think it may apply more to things like mic'd drums and guitars etc. I think electronic instruments arrive at the mixing desk already 90% cooked compared to those instruments. But some of these guys are highly sought after and it can't be all snake oil.


Well, that's because they are good at recording and mixing, which is a craft involving a lot of skill and knowledge. Microphone placement alone is incredibly sophisticated. However, it's when they talk about how using specific devices (that most engineers don't have access to) makes all the difference that I smell bullshit. Gear gets glorified all the way from hobbyists to top tier engineers, and more often than not it is simply all about solid craftsmanship.


Oh I agree. A lot of the ones I have been watching don't say it makes all the difference though, they say it makes the best difference. But I do agree that you can still get there without them. If I ever produce something I think is worth getting professionally mastered or stem mixed more like it, I have a few engineers in mind and they don't have ridiculous control rooms, but they do have a reasonable and focussed range of some quality outboard gear. Three of them are in Germany and one of them is in North America, and they all seem pretty humble to me.
Panason
mousegarden wrote:

" and that phrase in bar five of the chorus, it's slightly ahead of the beat by about 1 millisecond, can you edit that out?"

Bollocks.


Wow. I had no idea people listen to classical music that has been edited on a computer. That's some weird dystopian shit... unless it is for film/tv soundtracks?
listentoaheartbeat
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
I'm always blown away when I hear mixing and mastering engineers talk about using outboard X to get an extra 1% of finesse on sound Y.


I am convinced that they are bullshitting everyone to some extend. The top tier routine is more mundane than its reputation, at least from what I have seen. That is not to say that there aren't productions that pushed the limits in terms of finesse, fully embracing that extra 1% on all ends. But it's super rare I reckon.


You could be right, I honestly don't know. I think it may apply more to things like mic'd drums and guitars etc. I think electronic instruments arrive at the mixing desk already 90% cooked compared to those instruments. But some of these guys are highly sought after and it can't be all snake oil.


Well, that's because they are good at recording and mixing, which is a craft involving a lot of skill and knowledge. Microphone placement alone is incredibly sophisticated. However, it's when they talk about how using specific devices (that most engineers don't have access to) makes all the difference that I smell bullshit. Gear gets glorified all the way from hobbyists to top tier engineers, and more often than not it is simply all about solid craftsmanship.


Oh I agree. A lot of the ones I have been watching don't say it makes all the difference though, they say it makes the best difference. But I do agree that you can still get there without them.


Some techniques are about that 1% and nuances can add up to make a real difference. I don't want to call that into question, actually. But there is more bullshitting and snake oil in mixing and mastering than most people think, especially when it comes to gear. As someone who has worked as a low-key mastering engineer in the past I was astonished by the level of ignorance some seasoned pros were trying to hide behind esoteric gear and fancy verbiage.

Quote:
If I ever produce something I think is worth getting professionally mastered or stem mixed more like it, I have a few engineers in mind and they don't have ridiculous control rooms, but they do have a reasonable and focussed range of some quality outboard gear. Three of them are in Germany and one of them is in North America, and they all seem pretty humble to me.


Now I really want to know who they are. smile
slumberjack
listentoaheartbeat wrote:


Some techniques are about that 1% and nuances can add up to make a real difference. I don't want to call that into question, actually. But there is more bullshitting and snake oil in mixing and mastering than most people think, especially when it comes to gear. As someone who has worked as a low-key mastering engineer in the past I was astonished by the level of ignorance some seasoned pros were trying to hide behind esoteric gear and fancy verbiage.



i think the room is the most important. it has to be large enough on sonically perfect with no modes at any frequency. then second comes the monitoring.
from there i guess you can come almost anywhere with good eq, verb and compression.
dubonaire
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Now I really want to know who they are. smile


I thought you would. I don't even know if they would have time for me, but it's Tobias, Stefan Betke, Hannes Bieger and Shawn Hatfield.
slumberjack
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Now I really want to know who they are. smile


I thought you would. I don't even know if they would have time for me, but it's Tobias, Stefan Betke, Hannes Bieger and Shawn Hatfield.


mixing at bieger, pre master at freund, cutting at betke, sure that would be a superior chain. for a two sided 12" w/ one song this would be with 1180€ excl. german vat also superior... smile
listentoaheartbeat
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Now I really want to know who they are. smile


I thought you would. I don't even know if they would have time for me, but it's Tobias, Stefan Betke, Hannes Bieger and Shawn Hatfield.


Stefan mastered our last record with good results, even though communication was not ideal from my perspective. However, it seems like most mastering engineers in our niche don't engage in a dialog before getting started unless you book an attended session. I think good mastering should always involve one quick round of mix feedback and some discussion of direction. But maybe most clients don't have expectations like this. We are going to try Dubplates & Mastering for the next one, but Stefan is definitely someone who we will come back to.
dubonaire
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Now I really want to know who they are. smile


I thought you would. I don't even know if they would have time for me, but it's Tobias, Stefan Betke, Hannes Bieger and Shawn Hatfield.


Stefan mastered our last record with good results, even though communication was not ideal from my perspective. However, it seems like most mastering engineers in our niche don't engage in a dialog before getting started unless you book an attended session. I think good mastering should always involve one quick round of mix feedback and some discussion of direction. But maybe most clients don't have expectations like this. We are going to try Dubplates & Mastering for the next one, but Stefan is definitely someone who we will come back to.


Yeah I'm too far away to attend a session. I imagined that Dubplates & Mastering would be not so communicative, but could be a way to get your records sold in Hardwax.
listentoaheartbeat
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Now I really want to know who they are. smile


I thought you would. I don't even know if they would have time for me, but it's Tobias, Stefan Betke, Hannes Bieger and Shawn Hatfield.


Stefan mastered our last record with good results, even though communication was not ideal from my perspective. However, it seems like most mastering engineers in our niche don't engage in a dialog before getting started unless you book an attended session. I think good mastering should always involve one quick round of mix feedback and some discussion of direction. But maybe most clients don't have expectations like this. We are going to try Dubplates & Mastering for the next one, but Stefan is definitely someone who we will come back to.


Yeah I'm too far away to attend a session. I imagined that Dubplates & Mastering would be not so communicative, but could be a way to get your records sold in Hardwax.


We did attended sessions at Calyx. The main benefit was that we could establish a dialog with the engineer that continued via email. The session itself was not overwhelming but still interesting. Listening to our music there was cool. But my label partner is in London, so we stopped doing attended sessions. Communication with D&M has actually been the best we have experienced so far (well, just first contact and scheduling but still). Not sure if it would help getting records into Hardwax, D&M is a service provider after all that does not select like Hardwax.
dubonaire
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Now I really want to know who they are. smile


I thought you would. I don't even know if they would have time for me, but it's Tobias, Stefan Betke, Hannes Bieger and Shawn Hatfield.


Stefan mastered our last record with good results, even though communication was not ideal from my perspective. However, it seems like most mastering engineers in our niche don't engage in a dialog before getting started unless you book an attended session. I think good mastering should always involve one quick round of mix feedback and some discussion of direction. But maybe most clients don't have expectations like this. We are going to try Dubplates & Mastering for the next one, but Stefan is definitely someone who we will come back to.


Yeah I'm too far away to attend a session. I imagined that Dubplates & Mastering would be not so communicative, but could be a way to get your records sold in Hardwax.


We did attended sessions at Calyx. The main benefit was that we could establish a dialog with the engineer that continued via email. The session itself was not overwhelming but still interesting. Listening to our music there was cool. But my label partner is in London, so we stopped doing attended sessions. Communication with D&M has actually been the best we have experienced so far (well, just first contact and scheduling but still). Not sure if it would help getting records into Hardwax, D&M is a service provider after all that does not select like Hardwax.


Yeah that last comment was a bit of a throwaway line. But I guess they do have links and might let Hardwax know if they've mastered something good. I'll be interested to hear how it goes with them. Do you get to choose the engineer?
listentoaheartbeat
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Now I really want to know who they are. smile


I thought you would. I don't even know if they would have time for me, but it's Tobias, Stefan Betke, Hannes Bieger and Shawn Hatfield.


Stefan mastered our last record with good results, even though communication was not ideal from my perspective. However, it seems like most mastering engineers in our niche don't engage in a dialog before getting started unless you book an attended session. I think good mastering should always involve one quick round of mix feedback and some discussion of direction. But maybe most clients don't have expectations like this. We are going to try Dubplates & Mastering for the next one, but Stefan is definitely someone who we will come back to.


Yeah I'm too far away to attend a session. I imagined that Dubplates & Mastering would be not so communicative, but could be a way to get your records sold in Hardwax.


We did attended sessions at Calyx. The main benefit was that we could establish a dialog with the engineer that continued via email. The session itself was not overwhelming but still interesting. Listening to our music there was cool. But my label partner is in London, so we stopped doing attended sessions. Communication with D&M has actually been the best we have experienced so far (well, just first contact and scheduling but still). Not sure if it would help getting records into Hardwax, D&M is a service provider after all that does not select like Hardwax.


Yeah that last comment was a bit of a throwaway line. But I guess they do have links and might let Hardwax know if they've mastered something good. I'll be interested to hear how it goes with them. Do you get to choose the engineer?


I think you could do that, but we are just going with whoever they assign. Will report back!
mousegarden
Panason wrote:
mousegarden wrote:

" and that phrase in bar five of the chorus, it's slightly ahead of the beat by about 1 millisecond, can you edit that out?"

Bollocks.


Wow. I had no idea people listen to classical music that has been edited on a computer. That's some weird dystopian shit... unless it is for film/tv soundtracks?


I never worked on one session NOT ONE! that wasn't edited, most are edited to f**k.
The purist ideal of "capturing a beautiful performance in one take" is a myth.
And then you hear classical people slagging off pop production techniques, that's the kettle calling the pot black.
slumberjack
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Now I really want to know who they are. smile


I thought you would. I don't even know if they would have time for me, but it's Tobias, Stefan Betke, Hannes Bieger and Shawn Hatfield.


Stefan mastered our last record with good results, even though communication was not ideal from my perspective. However, it seems like most mastering engineers in our niche don't engage in a dialog before getting started unless you book an attended session. I think good mastering should always involve one quick round of mix feedback and some discussion of direction. But maybe most clients don't have expectations like this. We are going to try Dubplates & Mastering for the next one, but Stefan is definitely someone who we will come back to.


Yeah I'm too far away to attend a session. I imagined that Dubplates & Mastering would be not so communicative, but could be a way to get your records sold in Hardwax.


We did attended sessions at Calyx. The main benefit was that we could establish a dialog with the engineer that continued via email. The session itself was not overwhelming but still interesting. Listening to our music there was cool. But my label partner is in London, so we stopped doing attended sessions. Communication with D&M has actually been the best we have experienced so far (well, just first contact and scheduling but still). Not sure if it would help getting records into Hardwax, D&M is a service provider after all that does not select like Hardwax.


Yeah that last comment was a bit of a throwaway line. But I guess they do have links and might let Hardwax know if they've mastered something good. I'll be interested to hear how it goes with them. Do you get to choose the engineer?


I think you could do that, but we are just going with whoever they assign. Will report back!


yes you can. i did ask for rashad but got grinser done the laquer cut.
felixer
mousegarden wrote:
the engineers were always right and musicians were literally the scum of the earth, even though we were paying their wages.

but the engineer is usually right. and a lot of muscians are scum. i've seen small desasters happen when you do it the way the muscian wants it. i had this band once that insisted on doing the vocals at the same time as the instruments. i explained that usually you do the vocals as overdubs. but they insisted. so naturally both the instrumental parts and the vocals suffered. up to the point where the bassplayer had to redo both his bass and his vocals. this took more time and effort. and then guitarplayers. always insisting that live it goes wonderefully but now, in the studio something is wrong. until the singer remarked: 'but you always fuck up that part live, you just don't notice'. ah, thank you very much. and on and on it goes ... nowadays muscians find themselves so very great that it hurts. obviously the engineer has a lot more experience. and often more musical knowledge. so go with that, if you are smart. and adding reverb to the monitors is something you do all the time, esp on headphones. that guys prob was inexperienced. you had a lot of that in the 80ies. guys who just got a load of gear and had it working, but only just. and often came from a background of synthpop where there are no live drums. i remember mixing an album where they had a girl helping me who told me she had just done her first live session. after working at that place for 3 years ...
timoka
slumberjack wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Now I really want to know who they are. smile


I thought you would. I don't even know if they would have time for me, but it's Tobias, Stefan Betke, Hannes Bieger and Shawn Hatfield.


Stefan mastered our last record with good results, even though communication was not ideal from my perspective. However, it seems like most mastering engineers in our niche don't engage in a dialog before getting started unless you book an attended session. I think good mastering should always involve one quick round of mix feedback and some discussion of direction. But maybe most clients don't have expectations like this. We are going to try Dubplates & Mastering for the next one, but Stefan is definitely someone who we will come back to.


Yeah I'm too far away to attend a session. I imagined that Dubplates & Mastering would be not so communicative, but could be a way to get your records sold in Hardwax.


We did attended sessions at Calyx. The main benefit was that we could establish a dialog with the engineer that continued via email. The session itself was not overwhelming but still interesting. Listening to our music there was cool. But my label partner is in London, so we stopped doing attended sessions. Communication with D&M has actually been the best we have experienced so far (well, just first contact and scheduling but still). Not sure if it would help getting records into Hardwax, D&M is a service provider after all that does not select like Hardwax.


Yeah that last comment was a bit of a throwaway line. But I guess they do have links and might let Hardwax know if they've mastered something good. I'll be interested to hear how it goes with them. Do you get to choose the engineer?


I think you could do that, but we are just going with whoever they assign. Will report back!


yes you can. i did ask for rashad but got grinser done the laquer cut.


everyone asks for becker and feeds the hype around him, a experimental electronic music record almost HAS to be mastered by him, ridiculous imo.
rashad becker is very good, grinser is a very good mastering engineer too and so is almost everyone working at this level. i had such a fu*%ed up relationship with this mastering thing that i didn't realize how little it actually matters IF your mixes are good, and that's the thing there, you don't want the mastering engineer to take over artistic control and that means usually that if you're not happy with the master, chances are high that you should fix the mix. anyway, the real important part is the cut and afterwards the pressing, who cares if you had the best master if the pressing plant fuckes up and customers complain which happens so often today with all these new records coming out.
timoka
oh sorry i just realized how off topic the mastering topic is...anyway,
my studio looks like shit.
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