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Delay pedal for Frippertronics style effects?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Guitars, Basses, Amps & FX Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next [all]
Author Delay pedal for Frippertronics style effects?
mousegarden
I've used various rack delays to achieve this many times, but finding a pedal is more difficult.
A straight looper doesn't work, as I need control over the feedback time, and a delay time that's very long, 5 secs minimum. Also, the controls have to be glitch free, so that I can change the feedback length in realtime. All I'm looking for is a straight, long delay with feedback, on knobs, but there always seems to be a catch, I don't want to resort to a rack unit unless I really have to. Has anyone found a decent delay pedal that's capable of doing this?
anarchy4bits
strymon el capistan is my favorite. it does also the tape sound very well:)
for clean frippertronic sound TC ditto X4 works great if you change the mode to that freature in via little switches in the back of the device.
seamonkeyman
The EHX 16 Second Delay is well worth a look for this kind of thing, check out YouTube, the original release are pricey, but the 2nd edition is good, although different in terms of how it records (the original records when not engaged, best check YouTube for an explanation....)



I have the reissue, with the secondary control pedal, and it's fantastic with guitar for wigging out. Another consideration is Manecolooper's 16 Second Delay inspired pedals, which is still made to order....

https://www.facebook.com/manecolooper/
seamonkeyman
Weird, my previous 2 had detailed posts with YouTube links and erudite comments and showed up fine in preview, but now as blank to me here... Anyway, what you seek is the EHX 16 Second Delay, reissue is ok too, don't think only the original will do, also Manecolooper are worth a look.

I use the EHX 16 Second Delay for exactly this kind of stuff.
mousegarden
anarchy4bits wrote:
strymon el capistan is my favorite. it does also the tape sound very well:)
for clean frippertronic sound TC ditto X4 works great if you change the mode to that freature in via little switches in the back of the device.


I sold my Capistan, it wouldn't do Frippertronics, the delay time wasn't long enough.
My "go to" rack unit for this is the Bel BD80s, it's just a simple clean delay, up to 13 secs, with a simple feedback knob with no glitches. But they are difficult to find now, and I'd rather have something smaller.
I haven't tried the Ditto.
The secret to this whole thing is good smooth realtime control over feedback, and a very long delay time. I haven't found this in a pedal yet.
mousegarden
seamonkeyman wrote:
Weird, my previous 2 had detailed posts with YouTube links and erudite comments and showed up fine in preview, but now as blank to me here... Anyway, what you seek is the EHX 16 Second Delay, reissue is ok too, don't think only the original will do, also Manecolooper are worth a look.

I use the EHX 16 Second Delay for for exactly this kind of stuff.


Thanks! I'm off to YouTube to check it out...
seamonkeyman
I've also got a Bel-BD80s, the EHX doesn't quite sound the same, but it's very flexible for a pedal, and the controls are good for messing about. it's worth snagging the expansion controller pedal if you can, but very functional without it.
mousegarden
I think this is going to be a short thread! hihi

The EHX16 looks like it'll fit the bill. With one proviso, as long as it's not too noisy.
seamonkeyman
I can't speak for the original, but the 2005 reissue is quiet, noise isn't an issue on mine anyway, it's clean but not icey.
mousegarden
seamonkeyman wrote:
I can't speak for the original, but the 2005 reissue is quiet, noise isn't an issue on mine anyway, it's clean but not icey.


That sounds great, I know noise can be a problem on some units, with long feedback times, noise build up, but I'll give it a go.

thumbs up
mousegarden
Damn! they've been discontinued, can't find them anywhere, typical!
smetak
TC's Flashback, no?

The preset is just around 2 or 3 seconds, but if you tweak the TonePrint Editor, you're able to go up to 7 seconds, which is quite up there for a relatively inexpensive guitar pedal.
mousegarden
smetak wrote:
TC's Flashback, no?

The preset is just around 2 or 3 seconds, but if you tweak the TonePrint Editor, you're able to go up to 7 seconds, which is quite up there for a relatively inexpensive guitar pedal.


I'll check it out, but 7 secs is cutting it a bit fine. I like to use long loops, that give the impression that they er.....aren't loops!

hihi
erstlaub
The Boss DD20 is a ridiculously decent and useful delay with the ability to dial in exact BPM and also change the spacings of the delays on the fly (full bars, quarters, triplets, etc.).

It also has a stupidly long 23 seconds of delay, endless feedback without it going mental and to my ears puts out almost exactly what you put in.
mousegarden
erstlaub wrote:
The Boss DD20 is a ridiculously decent and useful delay with the ability to dial in exact BPM and also change the spacings of the delays on the fly (full bars, quarters, triplets, etc.).

It also has a stupidly long 23 seconds of delay, endless feedback without it going mental and to my ears puts out almost exactly what you put in.


Do you know if you can use it as a conventional delay, with varying feedback times on the longer delay settings? Looks a little complicated, there may be a lot of things I don't need, including tap tempo.
erstlaub
There is loads on it that I don't use but for the proce and what it does, the things it does do are excellent.

Having a bit of difficulty parsing 'varying feedback times' do you mean can you change the time/bpm of the delay while its playing then yes.
mousegarden
erstlaub wrote:
There is loads on it that I don't use but for the proce and what it does, the things it does do are excellent.

Having a bit of difficulty parsing 'varying feedback times' do you mean can you change the time/bpm of the delay while its playing then yes.


I'm not worried about changing the delay time while I'm playing, but I need to control the feedback, and change the length of the feedback time without any glitching, or as some people call it, the number of repeats.
I'll set say a delay time of 12 secs, and then vary the feedback knob to loose existing sounds or bring in new sounds, the equivalent of turning up or down the output/input knobs on two Revoxes!
erstlaub
Well as with nearly any normal delay line, it's one closed loop so you can certainly turn down the feedback at any time but it's going to cause the first thing in the buffer to drop out before subsequent things you've put in. I think this is what you mean.

ie.

play note, feedback to 100% it'll loop cleanly forever
play second note, same
turn feedback down to 50%, the first note will fade out and the 2nd will get quieter
turn the feedback back up to 100%, the quieter fading note will continue to loop endlessly at the level it made when the setting was change to 50%.

I used to use the pedal all the time when performing/recording with my nord G2 where I essentially sample a big chunk of the end of a patch, load up the next patch and get my controls lined up properly then use the mix control to start to cross fade the new patch and the old one. Sometimes I'd use the on/off pedal and feedback control to pick out bits of things to loop together as new composites.

It looks like a complicated pedal but once you actually start using it, it just makes sense. I've not tried the newer fancier one (DD500 I think) basically because I've been delighted with the DD20 for over 10 years now!
mousegarden
erstlaub wrote:
I think this is what you mean.

ie.

play note, feedback to 100% it'll loop cleanly forever
play second note, same
turn feedback down to 50%, the first note will fade out and the 2nd will get quieter
turn the feedback back up to 100%, the quieter fading note will continue to loop endlessly at the level it made when the setting was change to 50%.


That's it! thumbs up
sduck
seamonkeyman wrote:
Weird, my previous 2 had detailed posts with YouTube links and erudite comments


Fixed it. For youtube delete the s from https:// and wrap video tags. For links just copy and paste, no need for the url tags.
smetak
mousegarden wrote:
erstlaub wrote:
I think this is what you mean.

ie.

play note, feedback to 100% it'll loop cleanly forever
play second note, same
turn feedback down to 50%, the first note will fade out and the 2nd will get quieter
turn the feedback back up to 100%, the quieter fading note will continue to loop endlessly at the level it made when the setting was change to 50%.


That's it! thumbs up


Wouldn't that work better, instead of a delay, with a ditto x4? The decay function?
MindMachine
mousegarden wrote:
I think this is going to be a short thread! hihi

The EHX16 looks like it'll fit the bill. With one proviso, as long as it's not too noisy.


That's the one Fripp used with 80's King Crimson. He didn't mind the 'noise'.

If you find two let me know. I'll buy one.
seamonkeyman
sduck: thank you!

Mousegarden: check out Reverb, there's usually a few EHX 16 second delays in there from $450+ depending on whether or not it has the secondary function pedal. Vintage versions are much rarer, and go for twice that plus. I'm not fully convinced they are worth the difference, but as you'll see from the video above there are some changes in how it operates.
anarchy4bits
mousegarden wrote:
anarchy4bits wrote:
strymon el capistan is my favorite. it does also the tape sound very well:)
for clean frippertronic sound TC ditto X4 works great if you change the mode to that freature in via little switches in the back of the device.


I sold my Capistan, it wouldn't do Frippertronics, the delay time wasn't long enough.
My "go to" rack unit for this is the Bel BD80s, it's just a simple clean delay, up to 13 secs, with a simple feedback knob with no glitches. But they are difficult to find now, and I'd rather have something smaller.
I haven't tried the Ditto.
The secret to this whole thing is good smooth realtime control over feedback, and a very long delay time. I haven't found this in a pedal yet.


maybe you sold it to early:)
the normal delay time on el capistan is to short, thats right. but in "sound on sound" mode witch is same as "frippertronics" you get up to 20 seconds in lower and 10 seconds in high quality mode. i like the "gritty" lower quality mode also very much. you arrived this mode by both switches down (single+C).
tesserack
Quote

"A straight looper doesn't work,"

I posted this in another thread on our way to make frippertronics work on the boss RC 300 Looper pedal. There's also a technique for the boss rc-50 Looper pedal. Also doesn't the the pigtronix Looper pedal do degenerative feedback.?

with some creative feedback cable patching the boss RC 300 can do frippertronics. I actually purchased the boss Looper after watching the demo video on that thread.

http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6845.0

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube .com/watch%3Fv%3DqYlQ82evpPM&ved=0ahUKEwjgt_eX47TUAhVSyWMKHcJUAd8QtwII HTAA&usg=AFQjCNEBSANxPmId8xFJdu6Ot1wwx9ciFw&sig2=YI7ZVIhFpjg3y6BD0rVFl Q

And here's how to do it using the boss RC 300's internal fx to apply effects such as distortion to the decaying Loop.

The following procedure is a reversal of the Shawnb “frippertronics set for the RC-300. This set allows the rc-300 internal fx to be applied to the main output and then back into the phase track via the aux input.

The intent is to simulate how a tape would de-grade the signal each time it is fed back into the phrase track using a the lo-fi effect. I don’t if it really sounds like tape degradation, probably not, but it will degrade the signal. But not toward the fuzzyness but kind takes out the low freq sounds.

Maybe another internal effect would be better at this or an actual analog fxs pedal could be looped in with cables. Mainout>

If Roland had set up the rc-300 looper unit so that effects could be applied to the sub outs, then we could just use the Shawnb setup as described.


Each time the track is re-recorded (Feed back), it will pass through lo-fi Fx.


1. Press Edit Memory> Press Right Arrow Curser>Memory: Input Out set to SUB
2. Press Right Arrow Curser>Memory : Over Dub Mode set to REPLACE
3.Press Right Arrow Curser>Memory Fade : Fade Out Time set to 0 to 100 (lower values fade out faster)
4.Press System>Sys: REC Pd Act set to RECàOVERDUB
5. Press Right curser Arrow> Sys: Input Out set to SUB
6. Press Right Arrow> Sys: Track 1 Out set to MEMORY
7. Repeat step # 6 for tracks 2&3
8. In the Track section press Edi under track one slider
9. Press Right Arrow Curser>Track 1: Output set to MAIN
10. Repeat step # 9 for Tracks 2&3
!1. Press Write button to save these settings to the Phase number memory

Plug main outs into the aux input using split mono ¼ inch phone plugs to stereo 1/8 plug. Adjust the volume of the aux and the instrument input. This will effect how the loops feedback and fade out along with the fade out setting in

This setup will allow FX to be applied to the main outs to the aux input.

.

Now apply FX to the main outs as described in the manual.. Experiment with different FXs, maybe random vibrato or some other modulation can simulate tape wow and flutter and degrade the signal. Set up the expression pedal in order to modulate the modulator.

Warning since you're creating a feedback loop keep an eye on input and output levels.
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