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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Expansion module for the Q114++.
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Author Expansion module for the Q114++.
Rex Coil 7
I've ordered a Q144++. Lots of options with that one.

Including this:

Per channel, replace the 3 way toggles with a 2 way toggles. Throw A provides 1x (unity gain). Throw B selects a rotary switch. The rotary switch may be put in any one of FIVE positions, corresponding with the five options available on the PCB per channel. Looky here, just there on the left ....



This notion seems so intuitive that I'm hoping Roger already has something of the sort in the werks.

Or, the 3 way toggle may be retained, position 1 = unity --- position 2 = 2x gain --- position 3 = four way toggle selection.

So either a 3 way toggle with a 4 way rotary, or a 2 way toggle with a 5 way rotary.

It seems simple enough even the likes of me might be able to conjure this expansion module up as a DIY project. I'd go 2x5 myself.

Oh ... wait ... I think I recall 5 way rotaries being anywhere from *difficult to *impossible to locate. That said, the 3x4 set up would do fine. 4 rotary switches (one per channel) on a 1sp panel, wired up to the PCB via the 2-pin AMP connectors.

Best wishes ... Brian.
cornutt
If I was doing it, I'd probably build the extra controls on a a separate "aid" panel, and have it plug into the headers on the main board. I wonder if there is any easy way to get a clip indication out of the circuit... would be useful when using the 100x setting to have an LED to indicate clipping.
JohnLRice
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
I think I recall 5 way rotaries being anywhere from *difficult to *impossible to locate.
Not really. cool You could just use a 6 position rotary and not label or use the 6th position (several modular manufacturers do similar things to this) or there are rotary switches that allow the end user to set the number of positions. The very nice and compact Grayhill switches come to mind. They are on the expensive side but worth the expense I think. They have a stop-pin you drop into one of several holes to limit the number of positions so you just get a 6 or 12 position switch and set it how you need it.

http://www.grayhill.com/assets/1/7/adjustable-stops.pdf

Take a look through Surplus Sales of Nebraska, they have lots of rotary switches (there are 5 position ones on there but they tend to be expensive) and tons of other things you might like for prototyping and custom designs, sometimes you can find good deals:
https://www.surplussales.com/index/Rotary-Switches.html
Dr Gris
I've used a lot of Grayhill switches in my DIY days.
They're well worth it. (As is Elma in EU)

Just make sure to get the right type when it comes to shorting/non-shorting.
Also refered to break before make/make before break.

//M
Rex Coil 7
Dr Gris wrote:
I've used a lot of Grayhill switches in my DIY days.
They're well worth it. (As is Elma in EU)

Just make sure to get the right type when it comes to shorting/non-shorting.
Also refered to break before make/make before break.

//M
(I highlighted for clarity) --- You know, you're right! I'd forgotten about that option. I think over the years I've become complacent and take for granted that "you just order a damned switch and get on with it".

When I owned my commercial equipment repair shop, I was the authorized warranty and repair center for manufacturers such as Miller Electric and Lincoln Electric (both are welding machine manufacturers). I had three load banks, each half as big as a refrigerator. They all had "make before break" load range switches in them so as not to draw an arc between switch contacts when adjusting the range under load (sometimes as high as fourty load volts at six hundred amps). That said, I understand the concept.

So now you have me thinking! I wonder which is used in this situation? My first instinct would be "break before make" so there isn't a summed voltage assigned to the destination when the switch is in "just that one spot" where both throws are engaged at once (re; make before break).

But being nothing like any kind of expert on such things, it's just a guess. Moving forward ....

(Quoting member John L Rice): "You could just use a 6 position rotary and not label or use the 6th position (several modular manufacturers do similar things to this)" .... (end quote). That said, John I wonder if the unconnected throw would actually place the channel in the "unity gain" state? If so, the need for the toggle switch would be negated totally. Just pointing out the possibility there, not going anywhere with that.

Lots of speculation and conjecture on my part here. Well, I'll have the module in a week or so, I suppose a bit of meter time will produce some answers.

(Quoting member "cornutt") .. "If I was doing it, I'd probably build the extra controls on a a separate "aid" panel, and have it plug into the headers on the main board." ... (end quote). Yes, that was the intention all along. Hmm ... I thought I was clear about that (when I referred to it as an "expansion module" in the subject line and in the opening post)? Quoting myself here ..... "4 rotary switches (one per channel) on a 1sp panel, wired up to the PCB via the 2-pin AMP connectors"

Oh well, if I was unclear at first, I should be clear now! smile

I'll sniff around a bit, take a look at the links JLR provided, see what there is to see.

I have (I think) NINE real time controller sources that will be made all the more useful with this new module of Roger's:

** Q182-RP20 20" Ribbon controller
** Gate switch on the ribbon controller.
** Q181FJ Expression Pedal Interface.
** Gate footswitch on the pedal interface.
** X joystick axis connected to a modified Q142
** Y joystick axis connected to a modified Q142
** QKB61 Attack Velocity (via Kenton Pro Solo MkII).
** QKB61 Release Velocity (MAYBE --- via Kenton Pro Solo MkII).
** QKB61 Channel Pressure (via Kenton Pro Solo MkII).

Yup, eight for certain, and a ~maybe~ on one of them. And that list doesn't include any of the Euro performance controllers I have at hand.

Lots to tinker with, the new Q114++ will be given plenty of opportunity to show it's capabilities.

I'm excited! Thanks for the input, everyone.

nanners
cornutt
See, I thought you were talking about making a completely new, larger panel for the whole thing... seemed like a lot of work. Glad you clarified that.
Rex Coil 7
JohnLRice wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
I think I recall 5 way rotaries being anywhere from *difficult to *impossible to locate.
Not really. cool You could just use a 6 position rotary and not label or use the 6th position (several modular manufacturers do similar things to this) or there are rotary switches that allow the end user to set the number of positions. The very nice and compact Grayhill switches come to mind. They are on the expensive side but worth the expense I think. They have a stop-pin you drop into one of several holes to limit the number of positions so you just get a 6 or 12 position switch and set it how you need it.

http://www.grayhill.com/assets/1/7/adjustable-stops.pdf

Take a look through Surplus Sales of Nebraska, they have lots of rotary switches (there are 5 position ones on there but they tend to be expensive) and tons of other things you might like for prototyping and custom designs, sometimes you can find good deals:
https://www.surplussales.com/index/Rotary-Switches.html
Hey John, I located some rotaries that do like you said, meaning they are (somehow) configurable so that the end-user may limit how many throws it has.

SmallBear of all places ....

http://www.smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/26mm-enclosed-1p2-1 2t/

Open frame types as well! Described as "non-shorting" .... so these are break before make ....

http://www.smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/open-frame-2p6t/
Rex Coil 7
Check this crazy rotary switch out .....

Rex Coil 7
cornutt wrote:
See, I thought you were talking about making a completely new, larger panel for the whole thing... seemed like a lot of work. Glad you clarified that.
Yup, sorry about that!

oops
Rex Coil 7
One advantage of totally disassembling a synth to perform customizing is you get to see what parts are used.

The 4 Dot Com Q106 VCOs, as well as one Q149 Signal Selector use Lorlin rotary switches. By the way, the Q149 is a grossly overpriced module, given what it's comprised of and the labor required to build it, the Q149 is $29.00 more than a Q112 4ch mixer and the Q149 doesn't even have a PCB. 8 Tip/Sleeve jacks, 1 toggle, 2 rotary switches, 2 knobs, and a panel ... take a look at what $110.00 buys you. This new one I bought from Dot Com didn't even work properly, one of the wires wasn't soldered to the rotary switch .....



It's no big deal I guess ... it just got by pre-boxing testing ... it happens ... easy fix.

Moving on here, having discovered the brand name, I located a shipload of those at Mouser, in many different configurations.

Link = https://www.mouser.com/lorlin/Electromechanical/Switches/_/N-5g2h?P=1z 13w10

I'm still very interested in using the Q114++ as a CV signal mixer/distributor in my "modulation cab" (12U rack, Middle Atlantic brand). Since I have no idea exactly how the Q114++ option connection round back on the PCB are connected (flow wise), I figure it's best to emulate what the toggle switch does, which is to simply short the two wires together that fit on to the AMP 2-conductor headers.

That means I'll need a rotary switch that is configured with 6 (or 5 will do) pins on one half of the switch, and another 6 on the other side of the switch. Each rotary selection just shorts side "A" to side "B". So wiring up the rotary switch comes down to connecting one AMP 2 conductor pigtail per selection, one wire of the AMP pigtail going to side "A", the other wire going to side "B". There will be SIX of these pigtails soldered to the rotary switch, all said and done. Each of the pigtails will connect to the proper header on the Q114++ PCB, shorting the two pins of each selection together when the rotary switch is put into any given position.

What I need to do is fish around through the various offerings and locate the best suited Lorlin rotary switch for the job. They're pretty cost effective ... ~about~ $5.24 no matter how it's configured (no matter which part number, that is to say).

Perhaps this one ..... https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Lorlin/CK2373?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtFyPk3 yBMYYJUHx4Obt2wRCT5gp4WbRQ4%3d

So if I've thought this through properly, I'll need four switches at $5.24 each, totaling $20.96. Add the cost of a blank 1sp panel to mount the rotaries in ($12 bucks) and the entire modification ends up at $32.96 plus any shipping. Not bad at all! Who knows, if it works out well enough, I may even decide to work up a Front Panel Express 2sp panel that will house the whole works all in one module. I may even discover a few other little tricks that can be used with the Q114++ that could be included on the FPE panel.

seriously, i just don't get it

I'll mock one of the rotary switches up with one of those 2 conductor AMP pigtails and snap a few pics to better demonstrate what I'm thinking of. Give me a week or three.

Fin~ thumbs up
VinceL
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
By the way, the Q149 is a grossly overpriced module, given what it's comprised of and the labor required to build it, the Q149 is $29.00 more than a Q112 4ch mixer and the Q149 doesn't even have a PCB. 8 Tip/Sleeve jacks, 1 toggle, 2 rotary switches, 2 knobs, and a panel ... take a look at what $110.00 buys you.


In the past I've given Roger a hard time (in a friendly way) Mr. Green about this module.

When I bought a Q149 many years ago, I noticed that the grounds were not wired together. The panel is used to carry the ground. Yet, if you look at the Dotcom website, one of the stated design philosophies is: "We don't rely on the panels to carry ground." d'oh!
Rex Coil 7
VinceL wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
By the way, the Q149 is a grossly overpriced module, given what it's comprised of and the labor required to build it, the Q149 is $29.00 more than a Q112 4ch mixer and the Q149 doesn't even have a PCB. 8 Tip/Sleeve jacks, 1 toggle, 2 rotary switches, 2 knobs, and a panel ... take a look at what $110.00 buys you.


In the past I've given Roger a hard time (in a friendly way) Mr. Green about this module.

When I bought a Q149 many years ago, I noticed that the grounds were not wired together. The panel is used to carry the ground. Yet, if you look at the Dotcom website, one of the stated design philosophies is: "We don't rely on the panels to carry ground." d'oh!
Y'know .... I caught that too. I've let it go since I have been a little ~loose~ at times following my own claims of how well I stick to certain design and/or construction protocols when my website was up (back around when fire was discovered).

The Q149 seems to be one of Roger's little anomalies .... "that one kid" in his family that looks a little like the mailman (so to speak).

lol

When Roger Arrick is viewed in the totality of his successes, he's a poster child of The American Dream. He once told me that the Q960 was his very first module, and he knew nothing of electronics (no formal education) ... he just thunk it up and dun it! Add to that, he's owned and operated his own business, paid for his building and the dirt it sits upon, learned to deal with giant suppliers (such as FATAR, which I can vouch for the difficulty of that feat), and come up with processes and methods of fabrication and construction of close to a hundred different products. In the end, he's developed a Brand that is world renowned and respected (and at times even copied) and has become a standard bearer of certain things. For the most part his efforts have been scandal free as well. Synthesizers.Com may not be a Fortune 500 company, but you don't have to be on some list of "rich guys" to be a role model in the small business world.

The Q149 is just a freckle on an otherwise low blemish operation. There are a few others, but people that don't make mistakes aren't trying.

However I agree that the Q149 could be done a bit better, and be a little more cost friendly to boot. I bought one mostly out of curiosity. Knowing what I know now, I'll make my own from here forward. For folks that don't want to go that route (or can't do DIY), they'll just have to grin and bear it a little! It's a very useful module, no doubt about it.

thumbs up
hsosdrum
Since I just got a Q119 sequencer I've recently been looking at adding a Q149 or a Q962 for the ability to select rows when it's in the 3 x 8 configuration. I was having a hard time justifying the extra $50 for the 962, but I think this thread just helped me make up my mind that it is indeed worth it.

Thanks, Rex Coil 7 and VinceL! Rex, your tireless efforts at dissection and examination are always appreciated by me, even though I don't even own a soldering iron. we're not worthy thumbs up
Rex Coil 7
hsosdrum wrote:
Since I just got a Q119 sequencer I've recently been looking at adding a Q149 or a Q962 for the ability to select rows when it's in the 3 x 8 configuration. I was having a hard time justifying the extra $50 for the 962, but I think this thread just helped me make up my mind that it is indeed worth it.

Thanks, Rex Coil 7 and VinceL! Rex, your tireless efforts at dissection and examination are always appreciated by me, even though I don't even own a soldering iron. we're not worthy thumbs up
Thanks for the appreciation, *hsosdrum !! I've really tried to be the "shade tree synth builder's advocate" and show people that may wish to do modifications and custom work on their synth rigs but feel as though it's beyond their reach.

It's not.

Leaving heavy duty engineering to the engineers, while going head first into creating a synth that is more useful (from the owners' point of view) is really pretty easy. I don't aspire to design my own VCOs (et al), but I definitely saw a more useful culmination of modules that loses exactly none of fully modular capability in my mind's eye.

I have attempted to showcase the efforts I have made to that end. You can go a long way without ever powering up a soldering pen (especially with Dot Com stuff because of how Roger Arrick chooses to connect switches, pots, and jacks to the PCB). All I do is remount various circuits that them smarty smart guys invent and build into formats that serve my needs.

It makes my whole day knowing I've shown some people how to gain access to some of their own ideas.

Thanks for making my whole day!!!

applause
coyoteous
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
When Roger Arrick is viewed in the totality of his successes, he's a poster child of The American Dream. He once told me that the Q960 was his very first module, and he knew nothing of electronics (no formal education) ... he just thunk it up and dun it!

Huh... that's so weird that it ended up looking and functioning almost exactly like Bob Moog's legendary sequencer (and making one knowing nothing of electronics is just 'unbelievable').

Also, still trying to get my head around Rog as the poster/love child of the postman and the Amercan Dream (guessing sketchy NDA payments and/or National Enquirer 'catch and kill' to keep that one a secret... until now).
JohnLRice
coyoteous wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
When Roger Arrick is viewed in the totality of his successes, he's a poster child of The American Dream. He once told me that the Q960 was his very first module, and he knew nothing of electronics (no formal education) ... he just thunk it up and dun it!

Huh... that's so weird that it ended up looking and functioning almost exactly like Bob Moog's legendary sequencer (and making one knowing nothing of electronics is just 'unbelievable').
hmmm..... My recollection is that Synthesizers.com had been going strong for a number of years and he had the Q119 sequencer but people wanted a 960 clone so he said he would do it if enough people committed to buying one. Maybe it was the Q119 he was talking about as his first module? seriously, i just don't get it
coyoteous
Yes, that was my recollection and guess after I posted (post first... sort it out later?).

The second part was a failed attempt at humor... I honestly thought Rex was saying Roger looked like the postman, though (I did laugh at myself when I reread and saw he meant the module).

Who needs real fake news with me interpreting Rex's posts?

(good discussion, otherwise... OK, back to what I hope is the final round with 2017 taxes)
VinceL
JohnLRice wrote:
hmmm..... My recollection is that Synthesizers.com had been going strong for a number of years and he had the Q119 sequencer but people wanted a 960 clone so he said he would do it if enough people committed to buying one. Maybe it was the Q119 he was talking about as his first module? seriously, i just don't get it


I agree with JLR. I bought my first Dotcom system in 2001 and was a member of the Dotcom Yahoo mailing list. At that time Roger offered the Q119 sequencer. The infamous Morbius (if you were on the Yahoo list, you know who I'm talking about) was the driving force behind getting Roger to build the Q960. I remember lots of discussion about how true to the original it should be (LED's vs. Incandescents for the stages, etc.). The Q960 module was Roger's first module to require customers to make an upfront deposit. Once Roger had enough deposits (he never divulged what the magic number was), he committed to making the Q960.

A couple of years after the Q960 became available, Morbius lobbied for Roger to make the ARP sequencer. That module never happened.

Here's an oldie for those who were on the Yahoo mailing list (and which explains why Roger wanted deposits for the Q960):
I'll take three Mr. Green
Rex Coil 7
Quote:
hmmm..... My recollection is that Synthesizers.com had been going strong for a number of years and he had the Q119 sequencer but people wanted a 960 clone so he said he would do it if enough people committed to buying one. Maybe it was the Q119 he was talking about as his first module? seriously, i just don't get it
Meh ... Q960 ... Q119 ... either one. Very well could have been the Q119. The conversation I had with him on that topic was at least twelve years ago. There's a solid chance I got the particulars messed up. In either case, it is still a wonderful thing to have done without any formal education in electronics. Some people are just brightly lit.

Some of the cerebral things these engineer types get into in various threads go clean past me. "The upper end of the hantoon rantoon when coupled to the dual chrome go-faster powered by the spanish flute"....

Jumpin Jimminy. hmmm.....

I'm got hammer and screwing driver, and I can haz no stick finger in wall socket ... makey burn ouch and big fuzzy hair.



In any case, Synthesizers.Com is a well peopled company. I suppose I could have just left it there.

cool
Rex Coil 7
coyoteous wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
When Roger Arrick is viewed in the totality of his successes, he's a poster child of The American Dream. He once told me that the Q960 was his very first module, and he knew nothing of electronics (no formal education) ... he just thunk it up and dun it!

Huh... that's so weird that it ended up looking and functioning almost exactly like Bob Moog's legendary sequencer (and making one knowing nothing of electronics is just 'unbelievable').

Also, still trying to get my head around Rog as the poster/love child of the postman and the Amercan Dream (guessing sketchy NDA payments and/or National Enquirer 'catch and kill' to keep that one a secret... until now).
Who, me? ... say something cryptic and misleading? Never! I am A.L.W.A.Y.S clear and concise! ~ahem~ bullshit ~cough cough~ meh ... whistlin'

After rereading my own post, I think I did get a bit hyperbolic about Roger's smarty smarts. The phrase "knowing nothing about electronics" may be a stretch. However "(no formal education)" was meant to quantify that statement. As if to say "what I mean when I said 'knowing nothing about electronics' is he had no formal education in electronics".

Anytime someone has to take more time to explain what has been said than it took to actually say it the first time around hasn't worked through the initial statement very well. Clearly, I am guilty of that!! I can get pretty full of myself sometimes.

Who me? Never! ~cough~ bullshit ~cough~ bullshit ~cough~ ~cough~ ......

lol lol
Dilibob
I’d like a limiter and eq, so I can gain stage between multiple 114’s. Another option would be a line level xlr out and in(between 114’s), so I could gain stage to my outboard tube gear. That way I a have a full mixer in 5u.
Rex Coil 7
Dilibob wrote:
I’d like a limiter and eq, so I can gain stage between multiple 114’s. Another option would be a line level xlr out and in(between 114’s), so I could gain stage to my outboard tube gear. That way I a have a full mixer in 5u.
If I get you right ... you're talkin' ... Q114 --> EQ or Limiter or Line Level XLR out --> Q114. Yea?

I'm not sure you'd need to spend the cash-hish on multiple Q114++'s to do that ($167 each). A Q112 is $81 bucks. Add a VCA after the Q112 to bring the levels down to line. Then use another Q112 for mixing back in to the modular, using the Q118 Instrument Interface after the input Q112 for reboosting back to modular levels. May be more versatile...

seriously, i just don't get it

Or do you mean using one or two channels of the Q114++ for outbound mixing, then the remaining two channels of mixing to boost input back to synth levels?

I've literally been up all night so my brainz is moosh. Help me out a little with what you mean.

cool
Dilibob
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
If I get you right ... you're talkin' ... Q114 --> EQ or Limiter or Line Level XLR out --> Q114. Yea?
Yep, that's what I was "attempting" to say. From a wider context, what I'm trying to do is bring 4 to 12 outputs from a 5u system to things like real pultec/sta-leve/116/500series then get that back into a Q114 just to deal with limiting/compressing between mix stages. The outboard gear has input impedence values all over the map too, so is a hassle. Some of the tube stuff can definiatly be overdriven and burn out, so I don't want anything even close to a knob that can be accidentally be moved.

On the cost side, compared to what I normally have to deal with (like a neve 500 series runs around 2k per channel), synthesizers.com is super cheap but is missing a couple of functions (i.e. limiter for overally hot summed outputs).

I'm probably getting to complicated, for a aid module between two q114's what would be perfect for gain stage mixing: the "next" cable connector from the 1st q114 -> aid module that has a mono limiter/compressor (nuthing crazy fancy, a optical or tape/magnetic_gap compressor would be nice) with a outputing next cable -> 2nd q114 uses it's previous connector from the aid module. That way the q114 boards aren't even touched, and to install the aid module all that has to do is connect the prev/next connectors that are already on the q114.
Rex Coil 7
Dilibob wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
If I get you right ... you're talkin' ... Q114 --> EQ or Limiter or Line Level XLR out --> Q114. Yea?
Yep, that's what I was "attempting" to say. From a wider context, what I'm trying to do is bring 4 to 12 outputs from a 5u system to things like real pultec/sta-leve/116/500series then get that back into a Q114 just to deal with limiting/compressing between mix stages. The outboard gear has input impedence values all over the map too, so is a hassle. Some of the tube stuff can definiatly be overdriven and burn out, so I don't want anything even close to a knob that can be accidentally be moved.

On the cost side, compared to what I normally have to deal with (like a neve 500 series runs around 2k per channel), synthesizers.com is super cheap but is missing a couple of functions (i.e. limiter for overally hot summed outputs).

I'm probably getting to complicated, for a aid module between two q114's what would be perfect for gain stage mixing: the "next" cable connector from the 1st q114 -> aid module that has a mono limiter/compressor (nuthing crazy fancy, a optical or tape/magnetic_gap compressor would be nice) with a outputing next cable -> 2nd q114 uses it's previous connector from the aid module. That way the q114 boards aren't even touched, and to install the aid module all that has to do is connect the prev/next connectors that are already on the q114.
Ok, I kinda see what you're doing. I think. hmmm.....

I should probably clear something up about the "aid module" I'm proposing. It's really got nothing to do with In/Out ... it simply provides the ability to switch between the five per-channel functions, rather than having to remove the Q114 from the synth cabinet to move jumper links around to change channel option switch functions. That's really all it is.

I am (very) unsure whether the Q114 is your best option for what it is you appear to wish to do. I don't think some sort of aid module for the Q114 would suit your needs very well at all. You'd be far better off going with some sort of multi channel VCA (perhaps an Oakley? .... there may be better units out there, though).

Honestly, I think you'd do yourself a favor by contacting Graham Hinton at Hinton Instruments. He's a razor sharp specialist (and a highly educated electronics and audio engineer) with decades of experience in this area. He's very open to discussions and working with people quite thoroughly to create proper solutions for issues exactly like what you're speaking of.

His website link = http://hinton-instruments.co.uk/

Go to the website, hit up the ~contact~ page and write to Graham. He's patient (like a friggin saint!) and willing to discuss things at length. He's also a highly regarded member here, well known for his sage-like postings about signal issues, impedance problems, audio processing, and power distribution. So give Graham a note, he usually writes back within 24 hours.

I truly feel this is your best option, given the complexity of what you want as well as the cost of the gear you're using. That gear is worth taking proper direction from actual professionals that specialize in such things.

thumbs up
defutura
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
[---] having discovered the brand name, I located a shipload of those at Mouser, in many different configurations. [---] Perhaps this one .....


This one (CKS1458) sure looks a lot like the ones in your picture.
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