Buchla pulse/gate specs?

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dkcg
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Buchla pulse/gate specs?

Post by dkcg » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:58 pm

I've been in contact with Jeffry at Signal Arts about getting Buchla style gates and CVs out of a bananafied TetraMaps (w/ 200 faceplate).
The CVs are not an issue, I'm told there is a pot inside that could give me 1.2v/oct. The gates tho, are euro gates right now, so they won't trigger the 281e unless I stack the gate through the 210e.

I think the output of the 250e is a 10v spike with a 5v gate out of the same output. Is this correct? How long does the 10v pulse have to be? Does it matter as long as it's there in the beginning of the gate?

And one more question, I remember someone posted a part number for the power connector, anyone have this link or part number?

If this little project turns out, I'll have a buchlafied TetraMaps later in the year. :hyper:

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Post by cbm » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:53 am

There are several ways that Buchla systems output pulses:
Image
In general, 200e pulses are 10 V, although the 281e goes to 15 V, and the Pendulum/Ratchet can be set up to go to about 14 V.

On the one 250e that I've looked at, the pulse is a little rounded, and was roughly 8.5 V.
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Post by cbm » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:59 am

It's worth noting that a summed 5 v Gate and 5v trigger would give you something approaching the "stepped pulse."

Also the power connector is an edac 306-010-500-102
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Post by DGTom » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:17 am

cbm wrote:It's worth noting that a summed 5 v Gate and 5v trigger would give you something approaching the "stepped pulse."
I've had good results adapting the pulse out from the 230;

http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/synt ... _1_200.jpg

I'm still not 100% sure what that op-amp is doing, looks like a comparator w/ hysteresis... but R22, R23, R27 & D4 seemed to me the place to start.

Thanks for that chart Chris... I have a bizzare facination with the Buchla "stepped pulse" (great name for it btw)

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Post by dkcg » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:26 am

Thank you for all the great information. I hope that it's possible to get the euro version customized to do this. Fingers crossed.

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Post by jdev » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:01 pm

Thanks for the information as well, especially about the different pulse formats!

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Post by chrisso » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:08 pm

Cloned, vintage and third party pulses could be different again.
I know I have issues sending vintage programmable pulser pulses to my 292 and my Verbos sequencer. And my 218 pulse output triggers various modules differently (MM VCA, 200 series low cut filter etc).

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Post by synthomaniac » Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:01 pm

dkcg wrote:Thank you for all the great information. I hope that it's possible to get the euro version customized to do this. Fingers crossed.
Yes very possible, I've done it - search for CVGT1 :)
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Post by jondent » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:25 pm

Thanks for the great info guys.
I've been experimenting with the Elektron Analog four.
My buchla responds to stepped pulses in the range of 8 - 10V / 5ms

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Post by Cobramatic » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:48 pm

Revived this thread to see if there is another answer on the Euro trig/gate to Buchla Pulse story?
I've been jamming with a Euro TipTop Trigger Riot - fantastic trigger mayhem in Euroland but its 5V gates don't do anything for Buchla pulse in's.
The clock-out does clock Buchla though - so at least I can clock both systems.
So... I've read a bunch of threads on the subject and of course I have the excellent Synovatron CVGT1 but I really need 8 convertors... so the 8 x CVGT1 answer is a bit OTT for me!

Jono and I tried his 255 to see if we could add a voltage to the gate but nada - that's a shame because otherwise we had 8 trigger/gate scaler's right there.

Is there an easier answer out there ?
Even considering a DIY solution if it is not too complicated.

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Post by Kent » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:39 am

Boom!


Image

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Post by jondent » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:31 am

Hello Kent.
I have this. Its great.
But if I need 8 - 10 trigs (to trigger multiple drum modules)
can you suggest any alternatives.

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Post by jondent » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:33 am

I guess the actual question is what does the Trig to pulse converter do.
:hmm:

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Post by synthomaniac » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:55 am

Cobramatic wrote:Revived this thread to see if there is another answer on the Euro trig/gate to Buchla Pulse story?
I've been jamming with a Euro TipTop Trigger Riot - fantastic trigger mayhem in Euroland but its 5V gates don't do anything for Buchla pulse in's.
The clock-out does clock Buchla though - so at least I can clock both systems.
So... I've read a bunch of threads on the subject and of course I have the excellent Synovatron CVGT1 but I really need 8 convertors... so the 8 x CVGT1 answer is a bit OTT for me!

Jono and I tried his 255 to see if we could add a voltage to the gate but nada - that's a shame because otherwise we had 8 trigger/gate scaler's right there.

Is there an easier answer out there ?
Even considering a DIY solution if it is not too complicated.
Basically you need to convert 0-5V gates/triggers to 0-10V pulses so one way that might work is to use 2 CV Tools modules (4 ins & 4 outs each) as these have a gain of 2 on each channel (available as modules from Rhythm Active or kits from me). Obviously CVGT1 does more than just scale a euro gate - it produces a 10V narrow pulse at the leading edge and then a 5V sustain pulse for the duration of the gate and outputs via a diode. Perhaps someone could try a 5V euro gate via an amplifier module to prove if scaling works or if it needs the full treatment (shock horror I don't have a Buchla!).

Alternatives are a DIY or custom module - I can help with either. Also I was asked by Thonk recently to look at producing elements of CVGT1/cvgtMM as chicklet PCBs for the DIY world so this could be useful route to achieving your goal.
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Post by synthomaniac » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:04 am

jondent wrote:I guess the actual question is what does the Trig to pulse converter do.
:hmm:
I sort of answered your question before I saw your post. I referred to the gate to pulse conversion but the trig to pulse conversion is simpler as it just produces a 10V narrow pulse without the 5V sustaining pulse (so it ignores how long the input gate/trig/clock is and just reacts to the leading edge.
There is a good explanation in the CVGT1 and cvgtMM user manuals attached below:-
Attachments
CVGT1 User Manual Rev 1.2.pdf
(3.39 MiB) Downloaded 44 times
cvgt MM User Manual Rev 0.pdf
(1.89 MiB) Downloaded 40 times
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Post by Cobramatic » Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:48 am

Kent wrote:Boom!
Thanks! But we have 3 of these already :mrgreen:
It works beautifully but is overkill to have 8 of them just to get a Trigger Riot working with Buchla.

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Post by Cobramatic » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:09 am

synthomaniac wrote:
Perhaps someone could try a 5V euro gate via an amplifier module to prove if scaling works or if it needs the full treatment

Alternatives are a DIY or custom module - I can help with either. Also I was asked by Thonk recently to look at producing elements of CVGT1/cvgtMM as chicklet PCBs for the DIY world so this could be useful route to achieving your goal.


Woopeedoo!! That worked!! Thanks for that :yay: :yay: :yay:
Here's what I did - I used a STG BAM which has a 2 to 1 amp at the input then as I turn it up to x2 max then there is the trigger on the 281! :sb:
Works with gates too, stays on with the gate length.
So that's one output of Trigger Riot sorted....
To be sure I tried it with a few other Euro modules and it works on them all - seems that 5v trigger needs to be almost doubled then Buchla is happy!
At 4hp it is a smaller ( and much cheaper) option than the CVGT but I still need 8 of them!!
So I guess 2 of your CV Tools modules would do the trick, but I'd like to have that verified first.

Just as aside, it is interesting that Trigger Riots general clock out works just fine without any boosting - it obviously puts it's clock out at around 10 volts so you can trigger all sorts with it.
The Flame Arpeggiator clock does not work until it is boosted via the BAM.
The BAM also worked on LFO's and other Oscillators too - boosted output generated a trigger on the 281.

I still don't understand why the 255 did not work though :despair:

I'm wondering if a simple x2 amp section could be done as a basic DIY then for all 8 triggers on one slim faceplate? No need for the attenuators - just in and out boosted double would be great.
Thanks again for the help!

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Post by fluxmonkey » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:10 am

for my 208r, i built a small CV amp w/ a gain of x2.5 (using a CGS dc mixer PCB, to amplify the gate out of a doepfer ribbon controller... works fine in that context anyway.
cbm wrote:It's worth noting that a summed 5 v Gate and 5v trigger would give you something approaching the "stepped pulse."
this seems like the way to go... have been thinking along these lines, since it's a recurrent issue for folks trying to Buchalize non-buchla designs. synthomaniac's idea of a chiclet would be ideal
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Post by synthomaniac » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:17 am

Cobramatic wrote:...Here's what I did - I used a STG BAM which has a 2 to 1 amp at the input then as I turn it up to x2 max then there is the trigger on the 281!...
...So I guess 2 of your CV Tools modules would do the trick, but I'd like to have that verified first...
...I still don't understand why the 255 did not work though...
...I'm wondering if a simple x2 amp section could be done as a basic DIY then for all 8 triggers on one slim faceplate? No need for the attenuators - just in and out boosted double would be great...
So a x2 amplifier works as we suspected therefore CV Tools will work in just the same way. (If you're in the Sydney area maybe Matthew at RhythmActive can help demo it)

The 255 didn't work because (as far as I can tell from the product spec) it can only scale between -1 and +1; it has no gain - only attenuation.

A simple 8 channel module (8 ins and 8 outs) with either x2 gain amplifiers or comparators. I suspect the comparators might be more versatile as they would allow any waveshape to generate 0-10V gates.
Here's an example of the type of circuits you could use (note these just quick sketches of a single channel to give you an idea of the types of circuit and could be tweeked/developed by adding input protection/filter and comparator positive feedback and possibly LEDs. The ICs are quad types so you'll need just 2 ICs. The comparator Vref circuit R7/R8 is common to all -V inputs so you need just the one for all 8 channels). I should add that this does not produce the stepped pulse that the CVGT1 does.

Image

Hope that helps
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Post by Cobramatic » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:13 pm

synthomaniac wrote: So a x2 amplifier works as we suspected therefore CV Tools will work in just the same way. (If you're in the Sydney area maybe Matthew at RhythmActive can help demo it)

The 255 didn't work because (as far as I can tell from the product spec) it can only scale between -1 and +1; it has no gain - only attenuation.

A simple 8 channel module (8 ins and 8 outs) with either x2 gain amplifiers or comparators. I suspect the comparators might be more versatile as they would allow any waveshape to generate 0-10V gates.
Here's an example of the type of circuits you could use (note these just quick sketches of a single channel to give you an idea of the types of circuit and could be tweeked/developed by adding input protection/filter and comparator positive feedback and possibly LEDs. The ICs are quad types so you'll need just 2 ICs. The comparator Vref circuit R7/R8 is common to all -V inputs so you need just the one for all 8 channels). I should add that this does not produce the stepped pulse that the CVGT1 does.

Hope that helps
Tony
Tony that is brilliant, thanks so much for that! :tu:
I think I might actually try and build this just to see if i can!
Does the comparator circuit need to be placed in front of the x2 amp circuit (or does that comparator circuit include a x2 amp also)??

I checked and Matt has your CV tools. Im going to get one anyone as it would be very useful in my euro system and is a mixer too (I hadn't realised that).

Actually Im surprised more people Haven't had this issue - surely a lot of us are using Buchla and Euro triggers together? I guess they must already be using your CVGT1. But one is never enough :mrgreen:

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Post by synthomaniac » Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:47 am

Cobramatic wrote:...Does the comparator circuit need to be placed in front of the x2 amp circuit (or does that comparator circuit include a x2 amp also)??...
The two circuits are 'either/or' options so the comparator circuit does not need a x2 amplifier, it simply detects if the input is above or below the 2V voltage reference and switches the output between 0V and about 11.4V accordingly (i.e. it's a digital circuit).

FYI I produce DIY/prototyping pcbs and panels. They are only 5 channels but you could double up; have a look at this custom euro/buchla project I did http://synovatron.blogspot.co.uk/2012/0 ... odule.html and pm me if you're interested. It would be worth using a solderless breadboard to prototype one or more channels first if this is your first DIY adventure. Good luck!
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Post by Cobramatic » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:42 am

synthomaniac wrote: FYI I produce DIY/prototyping pcbs and panels. They are only 5 channels but you could double up; have a look at this custom euro/buchla project I did http://synovatron.blogspot.co.uk/2012/0 ... odule.html and pm me if you're interested. It would be worth using a solderless breadboard to prototype one or more channels first if this is your first DIY adventure. Good luck!
That looks perfect Tony - I'll PM you.
Thanks again

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Post by jondent » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:59 pm

Cobramatic wrote:
synthomaniac wrote: So a x2 amplifier works as we suspected therefore CV Tools will work in just the same way. (If you're in the Sydney area maybe Matthew at RhythmActive can help demo it)

The 255 didn't work because (as far as I can tell from the product spec) it can only scale between -1 and +1; it has no gain - only attenuation.

A simple 8 channel module (8 ins and 8 outs) with either x2 gain amplifiers or comparators. I suspect the comparators might be more versatile as they would allow any waveshape to generate 0-10V gates.
Here's an example of the type of circuits you could use (note these just quick sketches of a single channel to give you an idea of the types of circuit and could be tweeked/developed by adding input protection/filter and comparator positive feedback and possibly LEDs. The ICs are quad types so you'll need just 2 ICs. The comparator Vref circuit R7/R8 is common to all -V inputs so you need just the one for all 8 channels). I should add that this does not produce the stepped pulse that the CVGT1 does.

Hope that helps
Tony
Tony that is brilliant, thanks so much for that! :tu:
I think I might actually try and build this just to see if i can!
Does the comparator circuit need to be placed in front of the x2 amp circuit (or does that comparator circuit include a x2 amp also)??

I checked and Matt has your CV tools. Im going to get one anyone as it would be very useful in my euro system and is a mixer too (I hadn't realised that).

Actually Im surprised more people Haven't had this issue - surely a lot of us are using Buchla and Euro triggers together? I guess they must already be using your CVGT1. But one is never enough :mrgreen:
Thanks heaps Tony and Paul for all this great info. :yay:
Tony, I think this would be very useful as a purpose built Buchla format module. Or maybe a few different MM modules.

I'll PM soon. J :guinness:

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Post by rattlework » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:13 am

I've had success using the doepfer a-166 and/or to boost euro triggers to the 281e.
I wonder if anyone who has a intelligel OR could test it with euro triggers and the 281e.
This could be an economical alternative also.

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Post by jimmyambulance » Fri May 01, 2015 8:09 am

synthomaniac wrote:Alternatives are a DIY or custom module - I can help with either. Also I was asked by Thonk recently to look at producing elements of CVGT1/cvgtMM as chicklet PCBs for the DIY world so this could be useful route to achieving your goal.
Did this ever happen? I have an Easel that I'd like to interface with my Euro system. I'd rather not get a CVGT1 (I'm outta space in my rack!) but would really like to be able to convert the pulse out of the Easel keyboard to a Euro gate without using one channel of my Maths. Chicklets?

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