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292e sound leaks when gate is fully close
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Buchla, EMS & Serge Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author 292e sound leaks when gate is fully close
jurekprzezdziecki
Hi,

Is it a beauty of this module? The sound is still audible when the gate is fully closed. No cv connected, just an 261e. This is less audible in low pass mode but very much in combo. Is it just me or there is something wrong with my module? I must say i haven't notice that before...
solaris
it's "normal".
later revisions leak less or not at all, there's a post somewhere by /0 with few technical details. the search engine is broken, so...
anyway, your module is ok.
jurekprzezdziecki
solaris wrote:
it's "normal".
later revisions leak less or not at all, there's a post somewhere by /0 with few technical details. the search engine is broken, so...
anyway, your module is ok.


This is what i thought. Anyway it's a bit problematic. I some cases like building a drum patch (eg. kick pattern) make no sense. Vactrols are great but it seems i need to look / design some decent VCA or 4smile
solaris
jurekprzezdziecki wrote:
This is what i thought. Anyway it's a bit problematic. I some cases like building a drum patch (eg. kick pattern) make no sense. Vactrols are great but it seems i need to look / design some decent VCA or 4:)


there was a modulemodule_module with 4VCAs, unfortunately no longer made.

but for kicks, you could ping a channel of the 291e (sure you have it, right?).
olesandström
It can also depend on the case. I had a 292e that was leaking quite a lot in a third party case. No leaking in an original case.
tIB
Mine went this way when the power supply was struggling - something to consider.
rayce
+1 for using the 291e as VCA. Very clean sound quite unlike that of the 292e.
solaris
from this thread:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=772900#772900
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:42 pm
divisionbyzero wrote:
the 206e, 207e, 210e, 267e, 291e, 296e, and newer 227e's use ssm2164's as vca's. they don't bleed very much but they do, especially if you overdrive a channel.

the 292e uses a vactrol circuit which bleeds a lot. newer versions (i think it's rev3) have a noise reduction circuit which almost immediately closes the channel completely when the incoming cv and knobs values are both zero.
rkilman
tIB wrote:
Mine went this way when the power supply was struggling - something to consider.


Similar here, the culprit ended up being my power strip though. Plugged direct into the wall and then worked perfectly.
jurekprzezdziecki
olesandström wrote:
It can also depend on the case. I had a 292e that was leaking quite a lot in a third party case. No leaking in an original case.


Yes, it is. There is no bleed in my old skylab case. I use 30u WedeeWizz custom case.
jurekprzezdziecki
tIB wrote:
Mine went this way when the power supply was struggling - something to consider.


The problem is new and not existed in the beginning of my Buchla journey of troubles. I used to start with Skylab case. I have checked moving the modules to Skylab and there is no problem with the bleed. Silence.

I use a big 30u case these days. So i have started to unscrew the newest modules but my intuition has led me to the PSU… and bang!
Look at the movie, the psu socket is too loose and there is a problem with ground. Keeping it tight solves the problem just good.

The problem gone with the first input but some inputs are still bleeding.

[video][/video]
dkcg
It's like black magic, I find some places are leakier than others in the boat. If it leaks too much, I double up the envelopes, and put a slew or longer envelope on the 2nd channel. or put a longer envelope in the grey inputs.

The earlier version of the 227e (the LED driven one) is sensative to light. So you can take a pen light to the little hole at the top of the case. Nothing wow really, I cover the hole with tape for one less random variable.
weedywhizz
jurekprzezdziecki wrote:
tIB wrote:
Mine went this way when the power supply was struggling - something to consider.


The problem is new and not existed in the beginning of my Buchla journey of troubles. I used to start with Skylab case. I have checked moving the modules to Skylab and there is no problem with the bleed. Silence.

I use a big 30u case these days. So i have started to unscrew the newest modules but my intuition has led me to the PSU… and bang!
Look at the movie, the psu socket is too loose and there is a problem with ground. Keeping it tight solves the problem just good.

The problem gone with the first input but some inputs are still bleeding.

[video][/video]


The connector works just fine but it doesn't connect ground properly to the boats it seems. To make sure everything is grounded I add wires now from a busboard ground point to one of the screws/distant bolts that connect to the boat.
Unfortunately the 203 style busboard layout lacks an internal connection for this so this wire should always be added.
pustule
Hey Jurek, I also experienced 292e bleed weirdness in my DIY cases. Audio would pass completely through no matter the position of the knobs. If I put the 292e back in my original skylab case it was totally quiet.

Never could figure out why (other modules didn't behave weird in the DIY cases), my friend connected the quiet and noisy ground together on the 292e and now it works fine in the new case. A complete mystery

P.S. Can you post a link up to your video? I'm not seeing it
ArguZ
weedywhizz wrote:
The connector works just fine but it doesn't connect ground properly to the boats it seems. To make sure everything is grounded I add wires now from a busboard ground point to one of the screws/distant bolts that connect to the boat.
Unfortunately the 203 style busboard layout lacks an internal connection for this so this wire should always be added.


Would it be possible to see a picture of that ?
Might solve a lot of other problems too
weedywhizz
ArguZ wrote:
weedywhizz wrote:
The connector works just fine but it doesn't connect ground properly to the boats it seems. To make sure everything is grounded I add wires now from a busboard ground point to one of the screws/distant bolts that connect to the boat.
Unfortunately the 203 style busboard layout lacks an internal connection for this so this wire should always be added.


Would it be possible to see a picture of that ?
Might solve a lot of other problems too


Powered boat:


Passive boat:
bwhittington
Beyond module placement, it is worth trying all four channels on your 292e to see if there is a different response. The vactrols' responses can be irregular. And as an ungraceful patch fix/kludge if you have an unused channel, you can try patching the audio output of one channel through the input of another channel and give them the same trigger to gate the sound twice and hopefully lessen the noise.
jurekprzezdziecki
pustule wrote:
Hey Jurek, I also experienced 292e bleed weirdness in my DIY cases. Audio would pass completely through no matter the position of the knobs. If I put the 292e back in my original skylab case it was totally quiet.

Never could figure out why (other modules didn't behave weird in the DIY cases), my friend connected the quiet and noisy ground together on the 292e and now it works fine in the new case. A complete mystery

P.S. Can you post a link up to your video? I'm not seeing it


Hey Postule, here is the download link to the movie clip i made.

https://we.tl/9bq0zGwXun
cheers J
weedywhizz
Problem seems to be solved.

For some reason Buchla decided to bridge Quite and Noisy ground on their active busboards which in my opinion should be seperated as digital noise can be injected to the analog audio signal path.

On the 292e Buchla also decided to wire only the signal part of the Tinijax jacks to the PCBs and get NOISY ground from the panel !

My cases and many other 3rd parts cases have quite and noisy ground seperated on the busboards and the boats are wired to Noisy ground.

So whats missing ? Noisy ground on the 292e panel to get Noisy ground to the jacks as well.

So what can be done to solve the problem ?

Bridge Noisy and Quite ground on one of the busboards and your 292e should be much quiter then.

Any customer who bought a case from me can get a free passive replacement busboard with a bridge applied by me. If you don't have any trouble please don't use that modified busboard as noise can be introduced to your audio signal path !
If you don't want to replace your busboard I can also offer just an edge card connector with N/G brigded.
jurekprzezdziecki
weedywhizz wrote:
Problem seems to be solved.

For some reason Buchla decided to bridge Quite and Noisy ground on their active busboards which in my opinion should be seperated as digital noise can be injected to the analog audio signal path.

On the 292e Buchla also decided to wire only the signal part of the Tinijax jacks to the PCBs and get NOISY ground from the panel !

My cases and many other 3rd parts cases have quite and noisy ground seperated on the busboards and the boats are wired to Noisy ground.

So whats missing ? Noisy ground on the 292e panel to get Noisy ground to the jacks as well.

So what can be done to solve the problem ?

Bridge Noisy and Quite ground on one of the busboards and your 292e should be much quiter then.

Any customer who bought a case from me can get a free passive replacement busboard with a bridge applied by me. If you don't have any trouble please don't use that modified busboard as noise can be introduced to your audio signal path !
If you don't want to replace your busboard I can also offer just an edge card connector with N/G brigded.


could you show the pictures of it?
weedywhizz
jurekprzezdziecki wrote:
weedywhizz wrote:
Problem seems to be solved.

For some reason Buchla decided to bridge Quite and Noisy ground on their active busboards which in my opinion should be seperated as digital noise can be injected to the analog audio signal path.

On the 292e Buchla also decided to wire only the signal part of the Tinijax jacks to the PCBs and get NOISY ground from the panel !

My cases and many other 3rd parts cases have quite and noisy ground seperated on the busboards and the boats are wired to Noisy ground.

So whats missing ? Noisy ground on the 292e panel to get Noisy ground to the jacks as well.

So what can be done to solve the problem ?

Bridge Noisy and Quite ground on one of the busboards and your 292e should be much quiter then.

Any customer who bought a case from me can get a free passive replacement busboard with a bridge applied by me. If you don't have any trouble please don't use that modified busboard as noise can be introduced to your audio signal path !
If you don't want to replace your busboard I can also offer just an edge card connector with N/G brigded.


could you show the pictures of it?


Currently not at home but its pretty simple. If you have something like small crocodile clamps you can connect PIN1 and PIN6 on one of the busboard connectors. To test, you can use a banana cable and bridge the mentioned contacts while having that audio bleed.
PIN1 is where the BLACK cable from the modules is connected to. PIN6 is where the BROWN cable from the module connects. After PIN6 there is a gap on the connector.
I wouldn't recommend keeping the crocodile clamps installed - just to check if it works.
dougcl
weedywhizz wrote:

On the 292e Buchla also decided to wire only the signal part of the Tinijax jacks to the PCBs and get NOISY ground from the panel !


Noisy ground is not on the panel. Quiet ground is. All of the boats and faceplates are running on quiet ground, not noisy ground. Noisy ground is the 5V reference only.
weedywhizz
Hi Doug,

this is how it should be.
But why is the 292e leaking when the boats are on quite ground and the panels are mounted to it?
Only if you bridge Q/N the leakage stops.
dougcl
weedywhizz wrote:
Hi Doug,
this is how it should be.


Okay well that was the main thing I wanted to clear up.

Which is not to say I understand the bleeding problem.

Two things to consider
1) I do not have this problem in my 18-wls, and my 292e is not in my powered boat.
2) A ground difference could explain the bleed, and it seems to be a correct theory because tying the grounds seems to "fix" the problem. I have a question here though. Does the bleed happen with nothing connected to the CV jack on the 292e, or does it only bleed when a cable is connected from another module when that other module is sending "0V"?

Thanks
Doug
weedywhizz
dougcl wrote:
weedywhizz wrote:
Hi Doug,
this is how it should be.


Okay well that was the main thing I wanted to clear up.

Which is not to say I understand the bleeding problem.

Two things to consider
1) I do not have this problem in my 18-wls, and my 292e is not in my powered boat.
2) A ground difference could explain the bleed, and it seems to be a correct theory because tying the grounds seems to "fix" the problem. I have a question here though. Does the bleed happen with nothing connected to the CV jack on the 292e, or does it only bleed when a cable is connected from another module when that other module is sending "0V"?

Thanks
Doug


1) Does ist make a difference where the 292e is located ? I think not.
When connecting Q and N together on the active busboard, which is the case with original Buchla active busboards, you basically connect Q & N in the whole system. Q & N will be distributed to all other boards and therefore boats as the busboards ground connect to the boats.

2) Yes the 292e is bleeding even with 0V CV applied.
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