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New Product Announcement: Low Impedance Bus Board
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 18, 19, 20, 21  Next [all]
Author New Product Announcement: Low Impedance Bus Board
2disbetter
paults wrote:

I have and use the ones from Modular Addict, they are well-made.


I can second this. Although you might need mini zip ties to keep the cables from going everywhere as they are loose. Not a problem on smaller cables, but on their longer sets it can become a tacky cable salad behind your modules.
Todai
paults wrote:
My references to wire gauge was from the output of the PSU3 terminals to the screw terminals of the LIBB.

Not from the LIBB to individual modules.

I have and use the ones from Modular Addict, they are well-made.



I looked at the parts and the crimping tool - when buying at small quantities it's way more expansive than the ones from modular addict. Even with shipping to Germany! eek!
Todai
That grounding issue is confusing, indeed!

Seems to be a 50/50 split. Some recommend to connect the ground from mains to the rails, some don't.

Since I never had an issue with ground loops (I know Paul, it's an outdated / incorrect term) I'll leave it the way it is.

If the noise floor doesn't improve with all that trans atlantic wiring I might adress that later (probably it's got nothing to do with noise floor and Paul's going to knock me over the head... Mr. Green)
GenusModu
As usual I missed most of the excitement.

I have not tested the Doepfer PSU3, so it is not on my list. After testing quite a few euro power supplies with poor results, I do not intend to spend any more money on unspecified units.

Paul is correct that the highly tuned capacitive dampening of LIBB will improve just about any power supply with switching transients. You can see the results in the EHA product page and the Euro Power and Distribution white paper section with the Meanwell power supply.

The Modular Addict discrete wire power cables are nicely made and quite inexpensive. I do not believe you can make your own for their price. I've tried the Pololu parts and you need an expensive wire with thin insulation to fit the larger wire sizes.

The power cables between your bus board and module do not have any relationship to common impedance coupled noise. They do have some impact on noise from patching across modules with variations in the ground references. Bus board noise is much worse than patching noise. In tests with EHA assemblies as power cables, I saw a few dB difference for patch induced noise, but only at high frequencies, 16 KHz and 45 KHz, and at frequency levels less than -110 dBFS. I did not test at higher frequencies.

John
Todai
GenusModu wrote:
As usual I missed most of the excitement.

I have not tested the Doepfer PSU3, so it is not on my list. After testing quite a few euro power supplies with poor results, I do not intend to spend any more money on unspecified units.

Paul is correct that the highly tuned capacitive dampening of LIBB will improve just about any power supply with switching transients. You can see the results in the EHA product page and the Euro Power and Distribution white paper section with the Meanwell power supply.

The Modular Addict discrete wire power cables are nicely made and quite inexpensive. I do not believe you can make your own for their price. I've tried the Pololu parts and you need an expensive wire with thin insulation to fit the larger wire sizes.

The power cables between your bus board and module do not have any relationship to common impedance coupled noise. They do have some impact on noise from patching across modules with variations in the ground references. Bus board noise is much worse than patching noise. In tests with EHA assemblies as power cables, I saw a few dB difference for patch induced noise, but only at high frequencies, 16 KHz and 45 KHz, and at frequency levels less than -110 dBFS. I did not test at higher frequencies.

John


From the horses mouth, so to speak. I'm not supposed to believe any of that, right?! Mr. Green

As for the LIBBs - I'm sold on these, already.

The transatlantic wiring of the modules itself... I did some asking around and searched extensively. The biggest German supplier for electronics (German...you know... Vorsprung durch Technik and all...) does not even stock connectors other than the standard ones for ribbon cable. They didn't even have the faintest idea on where to get them... seriously, i just don't get it

So Modular Addict truly has a great offer. So again...place an order, wait...wait some more...and hope that the guy at the customs is not too obstipated on the day of arrival. Or else... Bop!
neil.johnson
GenusModu wrote:
The Modular Addict discrete wire power cables are nicely made and quite inexpensive. I do not believe you can make your own for their price.

From the pictures I've seen on the Modular Addict website there didn't appear to be any sleeving to stop the (upto) 16 wires from tangling into a ratsnest as 2disbetter has found. For a "premium" product I would have expected some Hellerman sleeves or expandable sleeving slipped over the bundle before termination.

Neil
Todai
neil.johnson wrote:
GenusModu wrote:
The Modular Addict discrete wire power cables are nicely made and quite inexpensive. I do not believe you can make your own for their price.

From the pictures I've seen on the Modular Addict website there didn't appear to be any sleeving to stop the (upto) 16 wires from tangling into a ratsnest as 2disbetter has found. For a "premium" product I would have expected some Hellerman sleeves or expandable sleeving slipped over the bundle before termination.

Neil


So I guess you're offering something better or know where to get it?
neil.johnson
Todai wrote:
neil.johnson wrote:
GenusModu wrote:
The Modular Addict discrete wire power cables are nicely made and quite inexpensive. I do not believe you can make your own for their price.

From the pictures I've seen on the Modular Addict website there didn't appear to be any sleeving to stop the (upto) 16 wires from tangling into a ratsnest as 2disbetter has found. For a "premium" product I would have expected some Hellerman sleeves or expandable sleeving slipped over the bundle before termination.

Neil


So I guess you're offering something better or know where to get it?

Zip ties as 2disbetter suggested...

Neil
Todai
neil.johnson wrote:
Todai wrote:
neil.johnson wrote:
GenusModu wrote:
The Modular Addict discrete wire power cables are nicely made and quite inexpensive. I do not believe you can make your own for their price.

From the pictures I've seen on the Modular Addict website there didn't appear to be any sleeving to stop the (upto) 16 wires from tangling into a ratsnest as 2disbetter has found. For a "premium" product I would have expected some Hellerman sleeves or expandable sleeving slipped over the bundle before termination.

Neil


So I guess you're offering something better or know where to get it?

Zip ties as 2disbetter suggested...

Neil


Ah...
paults
Meanwhile, at least someone gets it

Todai
Holy moly! eek!
Jalopy
paults wrote:
Meanwhile, at least someone gets it



Teach me your ways exalted one.
GenusModu
The image is from Neil Parfitt's system. The bus bars shown are great for large scale distribution when going more than 18 inches or so. The 3mmx10mm copper bus bar has 89 micro-ohms of resistance over 6 inches, compared to 730 micro-ohms for 12 gauge wire.

Here's a link to the pictured bus bars and accessories: https://www.asi-ez.com/member/x500-Busbars-and-Terminals.asp
Jalopy
we're not worthy
Jalopy
Short of lack of portability and increased price,,, why have I never seen this in practice except for when in practice at substations in my EE life...?

Seems like the grail as far as a home / studio case would go.
BTG
So if one wanted to build a new case with these, but has no EE experience, what's the right way to ensure that it's designed and implemented appropriately? I currently have 15U x 234HP using 3 Intellijel (TPS80W) systems with about 9-11 bus boards (can't remember exact #).

Thinking about going to a larger system (21U x 234HP) and if I do that would like to bite the bullet with an LIBB system.
2disbetter
Jalopy wrote:
Short of lack of portability and increased price,,, why have I never seen this in practice except for when in practice at substations in my EE life...?

Seems like the grail as far as a home / studio case would go.


Because this is for a professional's extra large eurorack system; Someone making and producing things for the industry.

There is a usually a wide margin between consumer and professional. The majority of people on this forum, I'd ration are in the consumer camp.
paults
You don't need bussbars to get improved perfoamance.

Using 12ga, tinned and stranded wire from the LIBBs to the power supply is a good start.
GenusModu
BTG wrote:
So if one wanted to build a new case with these, but has no EE experience, what's the right way to ensure that it's designed and implemented appropriately? I currently have 15U x 234HP using 3 Intellijel (TPS80W) systems with about 9-11 bus boards (can't remember exact #).

Thinking about going to a larger system (21U x 234HP) and if I do that would like to bite the bullet with an LIBB system.


Email me at genome@genusmodu.com for system design consultation.
GenusModu
Consumer or professional should be enabled for the quietest system that can be built. It should not be exclusive only to professionals. If you are building with LIBB I will help to ensure that the entire system is built for best possible performance.

I recommend bus bars for larger system distribution where wire lengths would exceed 18-24 inches. Neil Parfitt’s system is huge so it definitely requires bus bars to avoid 3 to 5 feet of wire length back to the power supplies. Once you get to a 15U system bus bars should be considered for distribution to LIBB.

I am reminding again that LIBB provides the high frequency dampening that you cannot get with a pure bus bar system. It takes all of the capacitors on LIBB including the small MLCC caps to provide the response out to 6-10 MHz.

I offer full consultations for any questions with LIBB installations.

John Loffink
Genus Modu
Neily2000
Update: Both cases are complete with the LIBB transition. 40 in all.

The noise floor increased slightly, as to be expected running adding another 2000hp of modules to a single power source.

However, it's still under the threshold of noticeable in a real-world studio situation.. aka... there is nothing detrimental added to the sounds I'm making. It just sounds like any other piece of professional gear.

Scientific result: I'm so f##cking happy. The end. hyper



Todai
neil.johnson


Hey Neil...

Driving home from Schneiders Laden with 2 LIBBs...

Quick question - does it make sense to tin the wires before sticking them into the terminals?


Thanks
neil.johnson
Todai wrote:
neil.johnson


Hey Neil...

Driving home from Schneiders Laden with 2 LIBBs...

Quick question - does it make sense to tin the wires before sticking them into the terminals?


Thanks

I would not recommend it. If you tin the wires it will be much harder for the copper strands to flow into the joint as you tighten them up. Much better to make a nice clean stripped end of the bare copper strands and fill the space in the terminal block. Just be a little careful with the tightening of the terminals as I believe the only thing holding the terminal block to the PCB is the five soldered joints.

Maybe post a photo of the prepared ends just before you make the connection?

And you have two GROUND terminals so make full use of them smile

Neil
GenusModu
Todai wrote:
neil.johnson


Hey Neil...

Driving home from Schneiders Laden with 2 LIBBs...

Quick question - does it make sense to tin the wires before sticking them into the terminals?


Thanks


Agreeing with Neil, soldering the stranded wire ends will make a worse connection. You want the strands to "be smashed" into the gap between the barrier strip screw head and and base plate to maximize contact area. That is how the barrier strips are designed to work.

John Loffink
Genus Modu
Todai
So wiring done...all lights light up, no magic smoke, nothing gets hot, my (least cherished) module lights up when connected...

The only thing that irritates me is the frickin wiring guide for the PSU3 (remind me to get rid of those next Christmas!).

For whatever reason Dieter wants me to not ground the PSUs, but the rails / case. I chose to ignore that and connected ground to the PSUs and subsequently the LIBBs from the PSUs ground terminal.

Before I install 37 modules....am I good? razz
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