MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index
 FAQ & Terms of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   Wiggler RadioMW Radio   Muff Wiggler TwitterTwitter   Support the site @ PatreonPatreon 
 SearchSearch   RegisterSign up   Log inLog in 
WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

New Product Announcement: Low Impedance Bus Board
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 19, 20, 21  Next [all]
Author New Product Announcement: Low Impedance Bus Board
paults
Quote:
Well you might not like it but with so many incorrectly assembled IDC cables in the wild there is an argument against the use of shrouded headers

If you were to try to make the 'case' at any "real" company (say Dell, Cisco, Lockheed, whatever) that because someone's drunk girlfriend while binge-watching Netflix can't figure out which way to turn the header around that's good enough to NOT put on a keyed connector to PREVENT those "bad cables", you would be laughed out of the room.

If you can't even make a CABLE correctly, how can you make a MODULE? And why in the world are you even MAKING cables AT ALL when there are literally 100s of cable shops worldwide that can make (and wait for it......TEST) cables for 1/3 of your parts including free drunk girlfriend labor.

See, it's this VERY SORT OF CRAP that drags down ALL of us in Euro.

How about this: If you paid $400 for a new TV and then bought a $3 Monoprice HDMI cable that was WIRED WRONG and blew up the TV, would you BLAME THE TV? Would you shrug and say "Well, there's a lot of mis-wired HDMI cables out there, it's just part of the home consumer thing".

No, you wouldn't. So WHY does Euro get some kind of "free pass"? WHY???
meatbeatz
paults wrote:
Quote:
Well you might not like it but with so many incorrectly assembled IDC cables in the wild there is an argument against the use of shrouded headers

If you were to try to make the 'case' at any "real" company (say Dell, Cisco, Lockheed, whatever) that because someone's drunk girlfriend while binge-watching Netflix can't figure out which way to turn the header around that's good enough to NOT put on a keyed connector to PREVENT those "bad cables", you would be laughed out of the room.

If you can't even make a CABLE correctly, how can you make a MODULE? And why in the world are you even MAKING cables AT ALL when there are literally 100s of cable shops worldwide that can make (and wait for it......TEST) cables for 1/3 of your parts including free drunk girlfriend labor.

See, it's this VERY SORT OF CRAP that drags down ALL of us in Euro.

How about this: If you paid $400 for a new TV and then bought a $3 Monoprice HDMI cable that was WIRED WRONG and blew up the TV, would you BLAME THE TV? Would you shrug and say "Well, there's a lot of mis-wired HDMI cables out there, it's just part of the home consumer thing".

No, you wouldn't. So WHY does Euro get some kind of "free pass"? WHY???


I know this and I've had many an argument regarding shrouded headers on eurorack busboards, trust me. Euro doesn't get a free pass, it's just that there are probably 10's of thousands of incorrectly made IDC cables already in circulation and the end user unless otherwise warned of this will plug their cable in the only way it fits and puff the magic smoke. The 'eurorack' specification as set out by Doepfer states: "unboxed headers only" so blame Doepfer for trying to save a few bucks. My solution: use boxed headers and provide an info sheet with a clear warning regarding cables. This way we can once again enjoy the convenience and protection of shrouded headers.
mskala
paults wrote:
But please don't lump us with the $3,000 HDMI cables. All that audiophile crap is based on CLAIMS and not MEASUREMENTS.


Paul, you're way out of line. I didn't say anything about $3,000 HDMI cables, nor about the "community" being "free of commercial BS," nor any of the other nonsense you seem to want me to defend. I posted in this thread attempting to support your position. My point was that you're not obligated to defend your measurements from trolls. How you perceived that as an attack is beyond me, but I won't make the mistake of supporting you again.

*plonk*, as we used to say on Usenet.
bobbcorr
paults wrote:
See, it's this VERY SORT OF CRAP that drags down ALL of us in Euro.


As Euro evolves from an Enthusiasts Only marketplace into a more mainstream one, it's imperative to re-think everything associated with creating a usable setup. I've noticed some of the vendors in the marketplace doing just that - removing mystery from the process and making it easy to connect musicians with instruments they can learn to play, as opposed to being obliged to learn to build.

And of all of the pieces of this instrument we all love so much, IMO the most critical and the most mis-understood aspect by mainstream consumers is power. It's a black art to the vast majority of people, and we don't care to become experts. We just want something that works reliably, quietly and safely.

If you need an example, look at what Moog is doing. They get it. They've made power a non-issue by delivering complete products.

As soon as @paults and the rest of his merry gang of pirates deliver a complete solution (busboard, connectors, power supply, a 2-4 HP on switch) I will be in line with my wallet open. And there will be a lot of enthusiastic mainstream consumers waiting there with me. Because we have no time or interest to engage in sophistry and we trust experience more than marketing.

*plonk*
dysonant
Another consumer point of view here. My time is limited, I have learned way more about electronics than I have had the time or inclination. To have a eurorack power supply and distribution solution that is simple, reliable, powerful would be brilliant. I've now used at least 8 different power supplies over 4 years in varying cases and each has had their own unique issues. I'm tired. I'm bored. I just want to spend my time making music without having to troubleshoot the instruments used to make it.

Would I like to see comparative specs? Sure, but on a retailer's website. I would not expect Genelec to post specs for Focal monitors. So I do not see the point of asking one manufacturer to call out another. I do however see the point of starting a trend to post said specs clearly, in a consistent manner across the industry.

meatbeatz I want your case. If your power specs are posted and I can compare them to the Genus Modu LIBB, I will be able to make an informed decision.

I'm enjoying the debate, but in the end I only care about the music.
GenusModu
meatbeatz wrote:
paults wrote:
2) if you don't think "having to worry about" high-frequency noise in audio is necessary, then you need a schoolin' and please do research on 'pn junction rectification'. You don't hear THE 500Khz noise, you hear the ARTIFACTS CREATED by the 500Khz noise.


I get it. I work with two EE's (60+ years combined experience) that have explained this to me at great length while pointing out how LIBB could be improved. Again, all the end user cares about is whether PSU/module noise and associated artefacts are in fact audible.


There is nothing missing or there by accident on LIBB. Anyone who believes they can do a better solution - do it and test the hell out of it and provide the results to the market.

The thing about EE engineering advice is you have to know when it is wrong. I often hear wrong advice from experienced engineers because they start with wrong assumptions. With all your questions it does not seem you can challenge their advice at the same level as them. That leaves you at a disadvantage unfortunately. Good luck.
Mungo
bobbcorr wrote:
As soon as @paults and the rest of his merry gang of pirates deliver a complete solution (busboard, connectors, power supply, a 2-4 HP on switch) I will be in line with my wallet open. And there will be a lot of enthusiastic mainstream consumers waiting there with me. Because we have no time or interest to engage in sophistry and we trust experience more than marketing.
There are already packaged and high performance power supplies on the market:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2613778#2613778
That even surpasses the specifications that paults has been promoting. Eurorack market is maturing and falling into the normal models where only the big companies with marketing budgets cut through and sell products, regardless of their actual benefits. You just need to look at the Trogotonic push over the last year to see that people don't understand/care about the important specifications of a power system and just want the cheapest available that is promised to work (even with unhappy customers they have enough new customers coming in from the hype that they don't care)
bobbcorr
Mungo wrote:
bobbcorr wrote:
As soon as @paults and the rest of his merry gang of pirates deliver a complete solution (busboard, connectors, power supply, a 2-4 HP on switch) I will be in line with my wallet open. And there will be a lot of enthusiastic mainstream consumers waiting there with me. Because we have no time or interest to engage in sophistry and we trust experience more than marketing.
There are already packaged and high performance power supplies on the market:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2613778#2613778
That even surpasses the specifications that paults has been promoting. Eurorack market is maturing and falling into the normal models where only the big companies with marketing budgets cut through and sell products, regardless of their actual benefits. You just need to look at the Trogotonic push over the last year to see that people don't understand/care about the important specifications of a power system and just want the cheapest available that is promised to work (even with unhappy customers they have enough new customers coming in from the hype that they don't care)


I'm a bright person. That thread is an impenetrable fog of obfuscation.

When markets are new, visionaries and early adopters can and will slog through just about anything. When they begin to mature, companies that can "cross the chasm" and reach the early majority customers do so with a combination of excellent products, excellent messaging, clear differentiation and an ability to establish market reach.

I may not be an expert on eurorack power but I am an expert on marketing. And it's not a dirty word. It's what leaders use to differentiate products and dominate their chosen market segments. And I'm happy to see that segment of this market beginning to mature along those four dimensions.

Those companies with superior solutions better get some superior marketing or they're toast.
DSC
bobbcorr wrote:

Those companies with superior solutions better get some superior marketing or they're toast.


If by 'toast' you mean they don't have to deal with free market bullshit then I agree completely! Sometimes the best solutions are not available commercially. I know, scary the thought. You mean you the individual might have to figure it out for yourself, oh, please say it aint' so! But what happens when I make my decision and it is wrong? Who can I blame, surely not myself. thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up
bobbcorr
DSC wrote:
bobbcorr wrote:

Those companies with superior solutions better get some superior marketing or they're toast.


If by 'toast' you mean they don't have to deal with free market bullshit then I agree completely! Sometimes the best solutions are not available commercially. I know, scary the thought. You mean you the individual might have to figure it out for yourself, oh, please say it aint' so! But what happens when I make my decision and it is wrong? Who can I blame, surely not myself. thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up


By toast I mean they miss out on market growth. I have absolutely nothing against boutique vendors or incredibly dedicated buyers. But heads up - the larger marketplace is made up of regular people.

My original premise stands. Superior marketing plus superior products always wins in growing market segments. As long as a market remains small, word-of-mouth is the best marketing, exactly because the market is small and it's cheap/effective to rely on person-to-person messaging. Like a bulletin board.

Have a nice day. smile
DSC
Eurorack IS boutique, in case you have not noticed. You are preaching to the choir. Great sermon, but kinda stating the obvious, right?
bobbcorr
DSC wrote:
Eurorack IS boutique, in case you have not noticed. You are preaching to the choir. Great sermon, but kinda stating the obvious, right?


It's getting less boutique by the day. Making power easier to choose, install and use will accelerate that.
Joe.
mskala wrote:
All these modular magazines, v-logs, and similar publications could be doing comparative tests. It is part of their mission.


Except they're not staffed, or properly equipped to do those tests. They don't have the authority to do the tests.

If you produce power supplies commercially it is part of the law that you have calibrated test equipment.

If a Power Supply producer (whether it's a PSU or Busboard) doesn't have 10 random Euro modules, I'd suggest they shouldn't be selling at all, it's exactly the same as module producers that dont have actually have a system (and yes, there has been a few).

So, a Producer should have some modules, calibrated test equipment and the expertise to do the tests themselves... So why isn't it happening?

All they have to do is buy a couple of other producer's PSUs or Busboards and show the results. One or two graphs. Get an apprentice to draw them up, we don't care, we just want to see actual data for once.

paults wrote:
it's the OTHER people's job to refute our "claims" if they think we are wrong or misrepresented.


This is absolutely ridiculous. lets all pretend that the first post after that is published won't be "your not qualified, im an EE with x years experience', or 'you dont have the $xx,xxx of Calibrated test equipment like meeee' meh

paults wrote:
When we say "LIBB reduces broadband noise 4x better than a typical 1oz copper bussboard", that's a MEASUREMENT. A CLAIM would be


No it's not a measurement. Referencing a 'typical' anything is scammy. It's up to personal interpretation what a 'typical' thing is.

Every single time a SMPS is mentioned, and it is implied that it is inferior in any way to another PSU, that's a claim.

A SMPS cost like $20. A passive busboard isn't much more. A regulated busboard is less than the cost of a module. Avoiding the tests is getting ridiculous at this point.

It's not slander or libel to releas data that's been collected.
meatbeatz
GenusModu wrote:
There is nothing missing or there by accident on LIBB. Anyone who believes they can do a better solution - do it and test the hell out of it and provide the results to the market.

The thing about EE engineering advice is you have to know when it is wrong. I often hear wrong advice from experienced engineers because they start with wrong assumptions. With all your questions it does not seem you can challenge their advice at the same level as them. That leaves you at a disadvantage unfortunately. Good luck.


Well for one, and this is my own observation, you could have saved yourself all that stitching around the 5V rail if you extended the PCB under the boxed headers and ran 5V around the edge of the board and under the boxed headers. So you've compromised this layer for no good reason.

Regards me being at a disadvantage, at the end of the day I am a user of eurorack systems and in this area I'd say I have a lot more experience than you, Paul and my engineers combined. The reason I originally took interest in eurorack busboards is because I was unhappy as a user with the solutions available at the time. I challenge my engineers advice at every level as I am challenging you. I have put forward three points that essentially render your lengthy white paper useless as far as the end user is concerned. You have not substantiated your claims regarding low impedance vs low resistance (because apparently you are unable to remove the onboard caps) and how this results in an audible improvement, you've not given us any info on the busboards you tested against (you know there is more to busboard design than copper thickness ffs) and you've not compared to the vast majority of busboards that people are actually using (active busboards). I would say the fact that neither of you evidently use eurorack systems is at your disadvantage.

Just because you have backed up your claims with 'evidence' does not oblige anyone else to do so, especially given the nature of the instrument and like you said, the 1000's of hours it would take to prove your solution was in fact superior. If you want to spend 100's of hours testing against passive busboards (well known to be generally terrible by design) that's up to you.

EDIT: typos/added comments
paults
GenusModu
meatbeatz wrote:
GenusModu wrote:
There is nothing missing or there by accident on LIBB. Anyone who believes they can do a better solution - do it and test the hell out of it and provide the results to the market.

The thing about EE engineering advice is you have to know when it is wrong. I often hear wrong advice from experienced engineers because they start with wrong assumptions. With all your questions it does not seem you can challenge their advice at the same level as them. That leaves you at a disadvantage unfortunately. Good luck.


Well for one, and this is my own observation, you could have saved yourself all that stitching around the 5V rail if you extended the PCB under the boxed headers and ran 5V around the edge of the board and under the boxed headers. So you've compromised this layer for no good reason.

Regards me being at a disadvantage, at the end of the day I am a user of eurorack systems and in this area I'd say I have a lot more experience than you, Paul and my engineers combined. The reason I originally took interest in eurorack busboards is because I was unhappy as a user with the solutions available at the time. I challenge my engineers advice at every level as I am challenging you. I have put forward three points that essentially render your lengthy white paper useless as far as the end user is concerned. You have not substantiated your claims regarding low impedance vs low resistance (because apparently you are unable to remove the onboard caps) and how this results in an audible improvement, you've not given us any info on the busboards you tested against (you know there is more to busboard design than copper thickness ffs) and you've not compared to the vast majority of busboards that people are actually using (active busboards). I would say the fact that neither of you evidently use eurorack systems is at your disadvantage.

Just because you have backed up your claims with 'evidence' does not oblige anyone else to do so, especially given the nature of the instrument and like you said, the 1000's of hours it would take to prove your solution was in fact superior. If you want to spend 100's of hours testing against passive busboards (well known to be generally terrible by design) that's up to you.

EDIT: typos/added comments


Ian,

Go ahead and design your bus board for Amalgamod any way you want. All your concerns have been addressed but you choose not to accept them. That's your choice too. I am not going to keep repeating the answers.

FWIW, I am a heavy synth and modular user since 1980, not just an EE practicing my skills for kicks.

John Loffink
Genus Modu
Conjure
This thread is just chock full of butt hurt competition. It's pretty sad to read.
meatbeatz
FYI I have no intention of selling PSU/busboards separately to my cases so there is no competition here. I appreciate the work that has gone into LIBB and I'd most definitely recommend it to anyone looking for a passive busboard.

As far as LIBB being the quietest eurorack power solution available (with recommended PSUs) as has been broadcast all over facebook, that remains to be proven and as such I feel there is a fair deal of disingenuity here. Eg Paul claims LIBB to be superior to Hinton Busbars without testing while trumpeting "measurements over claims". If it weren't for me needing a schoolin and being at a supposed disadvantage, this discussion would've unfolded very differently. That's all from me.
Joe.
Conjure wrote:
This thread is just chock full of butt hurt competition. It's pretty sad to read.


I think the most poignant post in this thread is this:

Quote:
I have no more faith in manufacturers than in magazines.


For some reason over the years manufacturers developed a culture on here of being as unprofessional as possible, as 'used-car salesmen' as possible.

While some have popped into DIY power threads to give advice, when it comes to be open and honest about the real performance of their systems they attack each other, rather than simply provide the data everyone wants.

I'd rather use some shrouded headers soldered to 3 straightened paper-clips, than buy power products from any manufacturers on this board.
paults
I'm curious why you think the data we presented as being unprofessional?

We actually have gone out of our way NOT to "attack anyone", no 'naming names', no table full of "aggressor" modules.

I think as a whole the Euro users want to be in some sort of 'walled garden' where typical marketing/commerce does not occur. Call it 'non-commercial' if you will.

Euro is probably a $15million/year biz overall, and yet it's supposed to fly under the radar? Really?

Addressing the use of the term "best": I can speak from experience that this is a trigger word for a LOT of people. There is like a de facto understanding nothing can be the best, no manufacturer can claim such-and-such is the "best". So if people got their panties in a wad because John used the wordthatshallnotbeuttered, just [eyeroll] but that's no reason to immediately discount the data because of "best" the wording should be "lowest impedance passive bussboard currently available".

Lastly: this is going to "sound arrogant and stupid" to non-EEs, but I suspect the non-EEs with read it and say "that's Paul being arrogant and stupid [again]", so here goes. I don't HAVE to test Hinton's solution to know the LiBB has better performance when using switchers as the power source.

I'll just leave that there.
Joe.
paults wrote:
the wording should be "lowest impedance passive bussboard currently available"


And then under that comment should be a little graph or table, showing data for every passive busboard currently available. It would list each board's measured impedance, taken with the same set of calibrated tools.

But that would be the honest approach wouldn't it?
paults
Epilogue

I grew up during the glory years of stereo wars. Pioneer vs Technics vs Marantz. It was all watts/ch and THD.

Now, watts/ch is a measurement that's really not disputed. Either it does it or not. But THD.....hmm.....what does that even MEAN? If Pioneer has 0.175% THD in the phono preamp, and Technics has 0.15% THD, can I HEAR that? I know "lower is better", but to what end? What if Marantz won a 'blind' test of all 3, and their phono amp had 0.35% THD?

When it comes to something most people have ZERO technical background in (power), it's a "tough sell" because really all you can (as we have done), is to point out RELATIVE merit. Having FFTs/scope shots/etc is geeky and fun and all that, but what does an absolute measurement of the RMS noise in a certain bandwidth mean? Can I HEAR such-and-such noise? How does the "empty case" measurement (just the supply + bussboard, no modules loaded) compare to having 3 rows of 104HP loaded up with 12 different manufacturers?

So, since there really ISN'T so "hard stop" metric that universally applies, all we CAN say is what we ONLY say: compared to the things we list, in the test setup we used, significant improvement was seen in ALL use cases.

We have purposefully steered clear of wild claims like "fixes all your Euro VCA bleeding issues" because yes, there are many variables that come into play. But on the other hand, the LIBB is a huge step forward in addressing the issue.

If the Euro manufacturers together, as a whole, continue to whistle in the dark about the Euro power problems, it WILL kill it off or at the very least restrict much more growth. Who knows, maybe it will revert to Doepfer and people Googling every schematic on the web for a new DIY board to offer?
paults
Quote:
And then under that comment should be a little graph or table, showing data for every passive busboard currently available. It would list each board's measured impedance, taken with the same set of calibrated tools.

But that would be the honest approach wouldn't it?


No, it's called SLAGGING and shunned by the Euro "community". No names can be used.
mskala
LoFi Junglist wrote:
I think the most poignant post in this thread is this:

Quote:
I have no more faith in manufacturers than in magazines.


For some reason over the years manufacturers developed a culture on here of being as unprofessional as possible, as 'used-car salesmen' as possible.


Don't misunderstand that. It was meant in a very VERY specific context: the context of published technical comparison tests between different manufacturers' products. Those tests should not come from the manufacturers involved, themselves; or at the very least, manufacturers should not be considered obligated to do them. They are the wrong people for the job. We should be looking for independent sources to do objective comparisons.

Manufacturers who do public comparisons between their own products and others have an automatic, structural conflict of interest. Bias is unavoidable. That doesn't mean manufacturers are dishonest; it only means they are not the people who should be publishing comparison tests. No amount of experience or expensive test equipment will change the necessity of independence.

And when I say manufacturers cannot do public comparisons well because they are not independent, it doesn't mean they lack experience or expensive test equipment, nor that other parties have more. It only means manufacturers are not independent. Taking it as a comment on experience, on test equipment, or on honesty, is missing the point. Independence is what matters.
Joe.
mskala wrote:
Bias is unavoidable.


No, it's not a survey, and data from a DSO is not an opinion.

A comparative test with the same tool is not biased, the tool just displays facts. You publish those facts, and create an informed public.

If you modify the facts you've committed fraud. If you claim the data is fraudulent without providing proof, you are committing Libel. There's protection for both consumers and producers.

Relying on a boogyman/strawman to avoid testing, its just one more tool for producers who are avoiding facts from getting in the way of peddling gear.
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 19, 20, 21  Next [all]
Page 3 of 21
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group