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CS80 filter in 5u format
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> 5U Format Modules Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author CS80 filter in 5u format
biosynth
Hi,
Do you know a cs80 filter in 5u format?
Like motm 480 filter but in 5u.

Thanks in advance.
Ockeghem
Maybe OldCrow can build one in MU format (MOTM format and MU format are technically both "5U" but have different mounting holes, widths and different panel edges).
www.cs80.com
Synthcube.com
biosynth
Already contacted him, no answer waah
Ockeghem
Hmm, perhaps Jason at Free State FX or Flareless could build one? Or occasionally they go up for sale in the BST Forum here.
spinach_pizza
Awhile back I bought a secondhand motm 480 and had it repaneled by Megaohm. Maybe synth cube sells the kits for these?
boothnavy
MOTM 480
Sugarfree
Old Crow's supply sold out, but you can still get MOTM480 pcb's at Synthcube, then DIY or ask an experienced builder to do it for you.

http://synthcube.com/cart/formats/motm/synthesis-technology-motm-480-c s-80-vcf-69395858
eskimo99
The MOTM 480 is the most recent filter I’ve added to my system. It freaking sweet !!!

I thought one or more of the IC’s for this board weren’t available anymore.

Is that true?

If so is there a work around for the synthcube kit?
spinach_pizza
Here's the panel Phil (Megaohm) came up with for me:



I too really like this filter.
biosynth
Thanks guys for your replies.
Finally will go with krisp1 builder wink

Has anyone this motm 480 filter and oakley journeyman filter (korg traveler spirit) to have a comparison? Thanks
CXIV
Id order one if it helps get a run made??
RussiaZero23
I all way wondered if the Motm-480 have the same Custom Yamaha Proprietary IC Filter chips as found in the CS-80 ans in the CS-30 and CS-60 and CS-50 and maybe a few others.

I guess it will be hard to get the real yamaha sound with out using those Yamaha chips. In none of the ligature that I have read acknowledged the cloning or reverse engineering of any of these chips that is crucial to the sound.

I am just speaking out loud here and I have never used the Motm-480 and any of the modern clones, But I did own for a few years a CS-30 and it has the same RAW sound (can be configured to be 1 voice of a CS-80) as CS-80 with a few twists. I miss it. Funny thing is that All those old yamaha synths are Full of these Proprietary chips. Almost every section from VCO to VCA. even the EG were custom Yamaha IC. I had the Yamaha IC book from the 70's some where around her that lists whats in all of the different lines.

Just speaking out loud again and maybe some food for thought or just Kentucky wind-age.
erroraudio
I read somewhere that Paul was doing a revised version of the 480. I have no clue how far he has gotten but my guess is that he is up to his eyeballs in E370 builds.
SynthBaron
RussiaZero23 wrote:
I all way wondered if the Motm-480 have the same Custom Yamaha Proprietary IC Filter chips as found in the CS-80 ans in the CS-30 and CS-60 and CS-50 and maybe a few others.


It wouldn't make sense to design a module around something that probably didn't even exist at the time as a spare part by Yamaha. It's not like an SSM/CEM that was a (for all intents and purposes) commodity part.
RussiaZero23
SynthBaron wrote:
RussiaZero23 wrote:
I all way wondered if the Motm-480 have the same Custom Yamaha Proprietary IC Filter chips as found in the CS-80 ans in the CS-30 and CS-60 and CS-50 and maybe a few others.


It wouldn't make sense to design a module around something that probably didn't even exist at the time as a spare part by Yamaha. It's not like an SSM/CEM that was a (for all intents and purposes) commodity part.


I understand that aspect of it (those Yamaha IC chips where rare in the 80's already) BUT, no mention at all of any attempts to reverse engineer those Yamaha Chips that the WHOLE CS line depends on. From the VCA to the VCO.

No mention that the CS-80 even has those specialized parts. For some one that does not know and interested in a CS-80 cloned filter those details of how those chips where reversed engineered and replicated with discrete parts would have been good to know.

I have never built or owned the Motm-480 but i have had a few Yamaha's from that time frame (I stlll miss the CS-30) and I have not heard those sounds from the Motm-480 filter.

Is the Motm-480 a good filter. Every one I know that has it says it is and are happy. Is it a clone of the CS-80 filter? I have my Doubts.

it was not advertised that the IG series chips were cloned to the same extent that the SSM filter was for the Motm-440 (the 440 sounds a bit different then the actual 440 but still really good). I just found that a bit off putting.

But hey people are happy with it so. I just get critical when it comes to clones.
MrNezumi
RussiaZero23 wrote:
No mention that the CS-80 even has those specialized parts. For some one that does not know and interested in a CS-80 cloned filter those details of how those chips where reversed engineered and replicated with discrete parts would have been good to know.

I have never built or owned the Motm-480 but i have had a few Yamaha's from that time frame (I stlll miss the CS-30) and I have not heard those sounds from the Motm-480 filter.

Is the Motm-480 a good filter. Every one I know that has it says it is and are happy. Is it a clone of the CS-80 filter? I have my Doubts.

it was not advertised that the IG series chips were cloned to the same extent that the SSM filter was for the Motm-440 (the 440 sounds a bit different then the actual 440 but still really good). I just found that a bit off putting.

But hey people are happy with it so. I just get critical when it comes to clones.


The MOTM-480 never claimed to be a "clone". In fact, it was clearly stated that the circuit had been changed to use "modern" parts. One of the great things about the MOTM modules is that they came with outstanding documentation. They told, in great detail, the components used, how to build the modules, and also about their operational theory.

http://synthtech.com/docs/MOTM-480_manual.pdf
RussiaZero23
Thank you for That post.

I have read the manual and I was there at the beginning when Paul S. Started the MOTM company.

That same manual states how to get the CS-80 sound on the next page (right after the page it says it is not a clone). In most circles of MOTM users they call it a CS-80 filter. On the OLD OLD web page it was stated as a CS-80 "type" filter. I know it is not, but there may be some out there that may not know better and expect this to bring-forth some CS-80 Mojo.

So you are right that it never used the word Clone or Replica or Copy. it was just known as the CS-80 filter in Motm Format.

The Original Starter of the Thread is looking for a CS-80 Filter in 5U land. He reference the Motm-480 as a CS-80 filter. I was hoping to help his cause.

So far unless you are going to make a custom module using some arcane Chips there is no CS-80 filter in 5U at the moment.
Tropic Al
What about Deckards dream?
It doesn't use the Yamaha IG chips but the filter sounds pretty sweet and a good representation of the 'CS' sound
sduck
Maybe it would be worthwhile to get oldcrow or paults into this thread for some detailed info about the 480.
RussiaZero23
sduck wrote:
Maybe it would be worthwhile to get oldcrow or paults into this thread for some detailed info about the 480.


I believe oldcrow has or had a CS-80. I know he has worked on them before and is a great repair man. Knows his stuff.

Paults Knows his stuff too and has had Buchla and Vintage moog stuff in the past. I am not sure he had a CS-80? He might have.

Roman did get a CS-60 for the Dekkards dream but has stated many times that it does not sound the same as the CS-80. What he did state was that Dekkards Dream sounds like a 70's poly synth. (his words not mine)

I have not experience with Dekkards Dream. Given its cost (even if I build it my self) and waiting list to get one, it seems I will not know just how good it is.
MrNezumi
The way I remember it (and I admit it is fuzzy) Old Crow was very active on the MOTM Yahoo group. He was very involved with the MOTM-480. If you go to Crow's CS-80 website it has a link that says "Crow's CS-80 Filter" and if you click on it you get taken to the SynthTech website page for the MOTM-480.
paults
a) yes, we 'reverse engineered' the Yamaha ICs to the point we knew what they did at a functional level. Hint: not that complicated

b) filters of any type "sound" a certain way for very specific reasons. Sometimes it does depend on the parts used, but in general they do not. Rather, the "sound" depends on the filter's "transfer function" and then the "root-locus" plot. In some filters, there is a very subtle value of a resistor or capacitor that adds "flavor" (904A Moog ladder does this).

Old Crow and I know what the 'secret sauce' is in the Yamaha CS-80 VCF. And we can accurately re-create it without using the original Yamaha ICs.

Granted, VCFs are the hardest to "understand" of all synth circuits. The math is complex (literally), and many "happy accidents" occur in analog design and filters have this everywhere.

c) the OP was like "Is the MOTM-480 the CS-80 filter" and I'll say it's about 95% of one.

We have a newer design that is like 99% of a CS-80 filter, and a fair question is "what is that 1% missing" and a fair answer is "not saying". I will say that 100s of hours was used to study, test and re-design this new version. Yes, it was A/B'd with a CS-80.

It's hard to get the exact, perfect sound of an ENTIRE CS_80 based on just the filter. The VCO is a bit, errr.....oddball itself and that is also a contributor.

Now that a critical part in the design has a new, tested and verified second source, I will get this off to production this fall. It's in Euro, but can run off +-15 as well as +-12V.

The original MOTM-480 uses CA3280s which are obsolete and literally every one on eBay is counterfeit.

Lastly, am I going to call it a "CS-80 filter"? No, I'm not. I'm going to call it a E480 Dual State-Variable cascaded VCF and mention that is VERY similar to the VCF found in the Yamaha CS-80.
RussiaZero23
paults wrote:
a) yes, we 'reverse engineered' the Yamaha ICs to the point we knew what they did at a functional level. Hint: not that complicated

b) filters of any type "sound" a certain way for very specific reasons. Sometimes it does depend on the parts used, but in general they do not. Rather, the "sound" depends on the filter's "transfer function" and then the "root-locus" plot. In some filters, there is a very subtle value of a resistor or capacitor that adds "flavor" (904A Moog ladder does this).

Old Crow and I know what the 'secret sauce' is in the Yamaha CS-80 VCF. And we can accurately re-create it without using the original Yamaha ICs.

Granted, VCFs are the hardest to "understand" of all synth circuits. The math is complex (literally), and many "happy accidents" occur in analog design and filters have this everywhere.

c) the OP was like "Is the MOTM-480 the CS-80 filter" and I'll say it's about 95% of one.

We have a newer design that is like 99% of a CS-80 filter, and a fair question is "what is that 1% missing" and a fair answer is "not saying". I will say that 100s of hours was used to study, test and re-design this new version. Yes, it was A/B'd with a CS-80.

It's hard to get the exact, perfect sound of an ENTIRE CS_80 based on just the filter. The VCO is a bit, errr.....oddball itself and that is also a contributor.

Now that a critical part in the design has a new, tested and verified second source, I will get this off to production this fall. It's in Euro, but can run off +-15 as well as +-12V.

The original MOTM-480 uses CA3280s which are obsolete and literally every one on eBay is counterfeit.

Lastly, am I going to call it a "CS-80 filter"? No, I'm not. I'm going to call it a E480 Dual State-Variable cascaded VCF and mention that is VERY similar to the VCF found in the Yamaha CS-80.


Thanks for jumping in Paults and Clearing some of that. I was going to post that The CS-80 sound is also a make up of all the individual parts not just the filter section alone. The VCO and VCA and Mixer section all have a say on the final result as does the very expressive control elements of the synth (how its played). Envelops play a very important roll as well.

I look forward to the 99% Euro Version when it comes out. It would be good to mention on the next release that extensive testing and re-engineering of the Original IC where done in the Literature of the new E480. That would help other out in the search for those sounds. Curious why only 95% for the MOTM-480? what is the missing 5%? You can PM me the answer if you like to keep it secret.

I enjoy Paults Stuff over the years. MOTM and his Euro Rack stuff has been great. Concerning the OP about the MOTM480 I guess I can hear the 5% that is missing, but that is unfair as the VCO,VCA and many other elements are missing.
oldcrow
The MOTM-480 and RR-480 aka MOTM 480 mkII are the result of me spending a long time hand-selecting parts to test as a CS filter in place of the Yamaha parts in my CS-80. In the end, I got it as close as can be brought into this world.

The thing to remember is, the filter is only one part of a much larger signal chain in the configuration of a CS-50/60/80. The voice chain is a *minor* portion of the "CS sound." The greater amount of instrument character exists within the user performance controls. The touch response and rate scaling, as well as the timbre changes imparted by the wah pedal and chorus circuits are the trademarks of the instrument. If you were to construct a CS80 filter from IG00156s as a standalone module, it would sound just like my modules. I know, because I did exactly this in 2000~2001.

The Deckard's Dream uses my RR480 circuit. I calibrated this for Roman about this time last year. The DD is not a CS-80, but the CS-80 is likewise not a DD. With a bit of configuration and sound tests, you can get one to sound like the other. Pandemonium has a number of great demos covering this, especially for MPE poly aftertouch and the like. See https://soundcloud.com/user-635888456


Crow
/**/

RussiaZero23 wrote:
sduck wrote:
Maybe it would be worthwhile to get oldcrow or paults into this thread for some detailed info about the 480.


I believe oldcrow has or had a CS-80. I know he has worked on them before and is a great repair man. Knows his stuff.

Paults Knows his stuff too and has had Buchla and Vintage moog stuff in the past. I am not sure he had a CS-80? He might have.

Roman did get a CS-60 for the Dekkards dream but has stated many times that it does not sound the same as the CS-80. What he did state was that Dekkards Dream sounds like a 70's poly synth. (his words not mine)

I have not experience with Dekkards Dream. Given its cost (even if I build it my self) and waiting list to get one, it seems I will not know just how good it is.
RussiaZero23
oldcrow wrote:
The MOTM-480 and RR-480 aka MOTM 480 mkII are the result of me spending a long time hand-selecting parts to test as a CS filter in place of the Yamaha parts in my CS-80. In the end, I got it as close as can be brought into this world.

The thing to remember is, the filter is only one part of a much larger signal chain in the configuration of a CS-50/60/80. The voice chain is a *minor* portion of the "CS sound." The greater amount of instrument character exists within the user performance controls. The touch response and rate scaling, as well as the timbre changes imparted by the wah pedal and chorus circuits are the trademarks of the instrument. If you were to construct a CS80 filter from IG00156s as a standalone module, it would sound just like my modules. I know, because I did exactly this in 2000~2001.

The Deckard's Dream uses my RR480 circuit. I calibrated this for Roman about this time last year. The DD is not a CS-80, but the CS-80 is likewise not a DD. With a bit of configuration and sound tests, you can get one to sound like the other. Pandemonium has a number of great demos covering this, especially for MPE poly aftertouch and the like. See https://soundcloud.com/user-635888456


Crow
/**/

RussiaZero23 wrote:
sduck wrote:
Maybe it would be worthwhile to get oldcrow or paults into this thread for some detailed info about the 480.


I believe oldcrow has or had a CS-80. I know he has worked on them before and is a great repair man. Knows his stuff.

Paults Knows his stuff too and has had Buchla and Vintage moog stuff in the past. I am not sure he had a CS-80? He might have.

Roman did get a CS-60 for the Dekkards dream but has stated many times that it does not sound the same as the CS-80. What he did state was that Dekkards Dream sounds like a 70's poly synth. (his words not mine)

I have not experience with Dekkards Dream. Given its cost (even if I build it my self) and waiting list to get one, it seems I will not know just how good it is.


That Deckard's Dream does sound good. Thank you oldcrow for the soundcloud link. If I would have heard those in the pre order stage I might have had a Deckard's Dream. DO you agree with Paults Assessment of 95% there for the MOTM-480? Or would you rank it higher?

Your OBX clone and all the other Projects you have been doing seem very accurate to the source in my ear.

Also thanks for confirming my thoughts that it is not enough to get the CS-80 sound from the Filter alone. You need the other parts as well.
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