MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index
 FAQ & Terms of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   Wiggler RadioMW Radio   Muff Wiggler TwitterTwitter   Support the site @ PatreonPatreon 
 SearchSearch   RegisterSign up   Log inLog in 
WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Is there anything you consider "Cheating?"
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Modular Synth General Discussion Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next [all]
Author Is there anything you consider "Cheating?"
mattcolville
This is the video that started me down this road;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MptJjycG9Do

I watched probably another 100 hours of videos over the thanksgiving and Xmas breaks before I felt like I could reasonably get a Mother 32 and it would not be a waste of money.

About thirty minutes after I opened it up, I watched that original video again and said "Ah-hah! Valhalla Shimmer!"

20 minutes after that, I was making music that sounded exactly like Vangelis Blade Runner synths and I never looked back. I've got like 26 modules now.

But...

I've never gone back and used that VST. I want to do it with modules. I don't even know if you CAN replicate that with modules, I sort of thought the Erbe Verb could do it, I dunno.

I don't know why, but for me, using a DAW running a looped synth wash and a VST for shimmer feels like...cheating.

That's entirely personal! But so is this whole hobby. I got a BitBox to use as my drum machine and I sorta feel like that's cheating. Like, if I were better at this, I wouldn't need samples. grin

Do you folks have these arbitrary "I refuse to use...." philosophies? Anything you find hard to explain or justify?

Or I am just crazy? grin
dubonaire
I refuse to use Maths and Clouds
LoFi Junglist
Sample packs make me angry.

Nice starting point for people getting into the hobby I suppose, but really they're helping people skip the fundamentals.
lisa
LoFi Junglist wrote:
really they're helping people skip the fundamentals.

I feel the same way about tennis and driving. People just buy a racket and a car, premade! They shouldn't skip the fundamentals. You haven't really driven until you refine your own gas. smokin'
LoFi Junglist
I also consider logical fallacies a form of cheating w00t

...but to revisit my previous whine, I realise I'm 'cheating' these days, compared to what i considered sampling 20 years ago.

No more diving through record bins in second hand stores, garage sales, no more hoarding random vinyl.

I have access to sample databases that list sources. eek!

I can sit on youtube during work, listen to a playlist of records, note down times. I can search for related Artists, composers, arrangers. I can find the entire body of work for an artist in a minute.

Maybe I'm cheating. Maybe it's all relative.
big job head
I refuse to put Rings into Clouds (but i don't have them so it's no problem...)
lisa
LoFi Junglist wrote:
I also consider logical fallacies a form of cheating w00t

Yeah. hihi

The thing is that you can consider any part of the process as a fundamental element. Drawing the line at "making your own sounds" is arbitrary. The same logic can be used to say that you should be building your own synths. That's my point.

You're allowed to have any arbitrary view, of course. I also understand where your are coming from since I shared this specific view for many years. Nowadays I realize that it's a view based on the notion that the technological aspect and techniques of music making is more important than the music itself and these days I disagree with that.
cptnal
If you refuse to do or use something for anything other than musical reasons you're your own worst enemy.

Nothing is cheating as long as you're having fun (and no one gets injured). You will be judged on the results - either by yourself or others.

This is fun!
dubonaire
lisa wrote:
LoFi Junglist wrote:
really they're helping people skip the fundamentals.

I feel the same way about tennis and driving. People just buy a racket and a car, premade! They shouldn't skip the fundamentals. You haven't really driven until you refine your own gas. smokin'


I buy a racket and win an Aston Martin playing poker with a murderous villian.
racooniac
no

this made me remember an interesting thread of recent times:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WeAreTheMusicMakers/comments/26bf7b/using_loo ps_is_cheating/

a lot of those comments are just gold wink

"But you have to be the female goat" applause
hamildad
stackables, unless banana.
Tom_1970
The use of samples.
Using multisamples to get a ‘tuned instrument’ is no problem for me, as long as it is an acoustic instrument like a piano or drums, but for anything that can be achieved with synthesis, I consider samples as cheating.
Using complete sampled beats, parts, riffs, licks etc. is beyond cheating.

This definition is just for me, I don’t judge others on using samples....
Well mostly I don’t. hihi
starthief
Nope, no technique/product is cheating.

Some things are lazy -- and that may be just fine, I'm a big fan of sloth myself. Sometimes "lazy" is just a lazy word for "efficient" Mr. Green

Some things are boring -- in which case... oh, I don't care, do whatever :yawn:

Some things are all too common, derivative, uncreative etc. -- I mean, it's your music, but any potential listeners will probably appreciate not being dragged through it again seriously, i just don't get it


More specifically, I use VST effects (and a handful of VST synths once in a while). They have all kinds of advantages. Not sure why anyone would feel shame at using ValhallaShimmer but not, say, a Halls of Valhalla zDSP card. It might be helpful to figure out how to achieve those sounds with more basic building blocks yourself -- or discover other cool stuff trying to -- but if you like the sound, use it.
jkjelec
Recently there was a clip shared of a "music in the park" event from I guess the late 1960s. There was a Moog Modular there, with a reel-to-reel tape deck playing a multi-tracked electronic symphony that must have been recorded from the Moog. Looking at it now it is so obvious that the synth isn't playing it, but back then it must have looked that way. Now THAT is cheating!

I am just joking; maybe they told the audience members that it was a sample of the music that the synth could make.
BenignToxicity
I'm in my own quandary about samples. I'm happy to use spoken word samples from radio sources or libraries as source material... because there is simply no way I can do that for myself. However, I was recently reviewing some Morphagene demos, and found the library of reels. As far as I can see, these are created (using an MG system) to showcase the module's capabilities... they sound great, and maybe fun to play with to learn the module, but I couldn't help but think using these in an "original work" would be cheating. I have the same problem with the TG One module. As much as I've loved listening to Throbbing Gristle for decades, using samples (even if they're curated by Chris Carter for the purpose) strikes me as "cheating".
dplduffy
I think the great thing about music is that it’s entirely subjective. What you hear and what someone else hears can be two different things. So the same sample can lead to two totally different songs. It may be “lazy” or unoriginal, but I don’t think it should be considered cheating.
Dcramer
It’s this whole ‘cable’ thing angry
Any upstart hack can patch a modular by cheating his way through with...ugh...patchcables... meh

In my day we patched our banana jacks back and forth the way it was meant to done... hyper .... with real bananas It's peanut butter jelly time!

True, they didn’t pass much current, or last very long....and god...the flies...

But back then we were real artists lol


It's peanut butter jelly time!

nanners
Dead Banana
Dead Banana
spinach_pizza
lisa wrote:
Nowadays I realize that it's a view based on the notion that the technological aspect and techniques of music making is more important than the music itself and these days I disagree with that.


I 100% agree with this.

Yes, anyone can dial up a huge synth wash with valhalla shimmer (or something similar). But in my opinion, it's what you do with that synth wash that's important. Same with any other technique.
dooj88
LoFi Junglist wrote:
I also consider logical fallacies a form of cheating


if a tree falls in the woods...

if a thought forms in the mind and there's no one there to recognize it, was it a candidate for logical fallacy?

i refuse to make music with VST presets. also, yeah, i'm not a fan of shimmer verbs, it's like fake complexity if not done right.
Shledge
I have samplepacks of for drum sounds and loops in my bitbox (mainly amen breaks).
I use stackables.
I sample what I make into loops and make songs out of that.
I've used factory presets before, and factory samples built in to DAWs.

Does it matter?
Abston
The more I get experience in sound design and production, the more i think using sample pack with Loops is cheating smile In fact, more than just cheating, it makes you loose the most important thing, your personality and you are just sounding the same than 10000 other guys
luchog
mattcolville wrote:
Do you folks have these arbitrary "I refuse to use...." philosophies? Anything you find hard to explain or justify?

Or I am just crazy? grin


The two are not mutually exclusive. Mr. Green

LoFi Junglist wrote:
Sample packs make me angry.

Nice starting point for people getting into the hobby I suppose, but really they're helping people skip the fundamentals.


My personal philosophy is also focused on fundamentals, multiple simple modules that do one or two things, and work together to create sounds, rather than super-complex multi-function modules that are nearly an entire synthesizer in and of themselves.

For the same reason I eschew anything that uses samples and wavetables. I don't know that I'd necessarily call that "cheating", but it's certainly not really taking advantage of the unique characteristics of modular synthesizers. And once it gets to that point, I feel like might as well just go back to my computer and save a few bucks on hardware.

My own personal style is based on keeping my rack as purely analog as possible, avoiding much in the way of digital sound production or signal processing, in order to retain a level of imprecision and unpredictability that digital hardware effectively erases. Also the reason that the core of my current rack is vacuum-tube-based modules, adding an additional layer of chaos to the system. An instrument that is no only truly unique and unreproducible (even with the same hardware), but which changes over time as tubes age and/or get swapped out.

Abston wrote:
The more I get experience in sound design and production, the more i think using sample pack with Loops is cheating smile In fact, more than just cheating, it makes you loose the most important thing, your personality and you are just sounding the same than 10000 other guys


Reminds me of back in the late '90s to early '00s, when every kid with a (typically pirated) copy of Sound Forge/Reason/Pro Tools/etc, was churning out piles of techo-industrial garbage. After a few minutes of listening, you could tell fairly clearly what software and sample libraries were being used, because they all sounded essentially the same. There was little to no originality, just a whole lot of canned sounds and beats stuck together like Lego bricks, all pulled from the same small bins that everyone else used.
InnnerSight
Everything is cheating - Unless you make your own instruments and scales. w00t

Everything is fair game, just make sure you add something of your own to it.
1010music
Thanks for starting this conversation. As someone who has been involved in making music tech for a number of years, I have seen it take on many forms. I find that the definition of "cheating" is always in the eye of the beholder. One person's "cheating" is another person's "keeping it real."

Think about how many things you are taking for granted with music creation--especially electronic music production. I would argue that unless you are producing music with nothing but the sound of your own voice and body then you are "cheating."

Using a car to get to your gig? That's cheating. You should carry everything by hand no matter how far it is.

Using electricity from the grid to power your rig? That's cheating. You should generate it yourself.

Using money to get paid for your gig? Cheater. Use bartering of goods and services like real artists do.

I hope this makes you laugh and points out the humor of this topic.
BenignToxicity
I think everyone has their own yardstick... my discomfort need not be (nor should it be) someone else's. My own (somewhat arbitrary) line revolves around whether I can do it myself or not... am I just taking a shortcut... would I learn more and feel more accomplished if I did it myself? Obviously I cannot reproduce the radio stuff I like to use... but I can reproduce a fairly serviceable bass drum and hi-hat when the need arises. However, I tie up a lot of hardware to do that and I would certainly not baulk at using something like Pico Drums with its samples to do that efficiently. Am I breaking my own rules? Probably... but they're my rules, so I can.
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Modular Synth General Discussion Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next [all]
Page 1 of 5
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group