MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index
 FAQ & Terms of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   Wiggler RadioMW Radio   Muff Wiggler TwitterTwitter   Support the site @ PatreonPatreon 
 SearchSearch   RegisterSign up   Log inLog in 
WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Argghh... Ableton truly sucks for MIDI sequencing!
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Software Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author Argghh... Ableton truly sucks for MIDI sequencing!
Panason
Automation being disabled because you made a manual change, forcing you to go to session view to re-enable it... Follow song turning itself off... No instrument definitions for MIDI gear so that you can name the MIDI CCs you edit. Pencil when you want pointer. No right click to select pointer or pencil.....Trying to move the view around when editing clips and zooming because you moved the mouse a little along the vertical axis. No vertical line in the arrangement when you want to line up clip start & end points. No way to precisely edit automation other than moving a line with the mouse. Fucking breakpoints. Even at max zoom getting the exact value you want takes forever....
Inserting program changes into the arrangement requires going to session view and creating a clip, then dragging it back into the arrangement....

It's a damn mess. My brain hurts. I cannot wait to finish this project and get the fuck out of Ableton land! very frustrating very frustrating very frustrating Dead Banana Dead Banana Dead Banana
ecstaticquiet
Sounds like you're used to Logic! I'm an Ableton user, and find the MIDI programming pretty user friendly - just need to know a few keyboard short cuts - like B for moving between pencil and pointer smile

Logic midi programming drives me insane! I hate the tool menu, and the zooming technique is annoying.

Sorry for your pain - different strokes I guess smile
Panason
Thanks! Do you know what the deal is with Follow in the Arrangement view? It seems to turn itself off sometimes.
The Grump
If you make an edit, you have to re-enable Follow. I have several hotkeys I assigned using cmd+K.

"." for follow, "/" for return to arrangement, "\" for my master channel, etc.. They help, and the new zoom features are excellent. It's the midi timing stability when things get processor intensive that annoys me.
hyena
live 10 offers several updates in this field. follow isn't turned off anynore, you can show\hide all automations with "a" key shortcut as in logic, automations now automatically snap to grid,no need to zoom in to crazy values (you can free em holding cmd\ctrl).
the pointer\pencil is the same but learn the hotkey: "b" (without modifiers) moves from pointer to pencil.
you can now have nested groups (which is great for volume automation\levels handling),many other new features.
Panason
Thanks for the tips. I'll upgrade to Live 10 asap but I think I'll try Bitwig for my next project.
soundshaper
I have pretty much discovered exactly the same headaches, with Live 9. I love the Session View and creating jams on th fly is so quick and easy. But when it comes down to arranging a song and making detailed edits, it’s a real PIA. I’ve been using Cubase for so many years now, using anything else (especially for MIDI) makes me feel like I’m wearing a straight-jacket while trying to edit. Cubase it so smooth and logical, beautiful now too, and rock solid for MIDI and automation. Also I’ve found that the summing in Live’s mixer sounds slightly lacking and dull to my ear as compared to Cubase, which sounds clear and pristine. Placebo?
Panason
When I used Live to make tracks using only samples I thought the mixer sounded lacking like you say. Now I'm mixing mostly hardware and using Focusrite and MOTU audio interfaces and it sounds OK with a few nice plugins for compression and overdrive... it would probably sound better with Logic but I haven't compared.

But it's clear to me that Live is not designed for MIDI sequencing but for working with sample loops (that Ableton want to sell you). MIDI functionality is tacked on, and badly.

When I first discovered Live and played around with Session view I was super excited but I wasn't using MIDI gear at the time.

It was when I realised I had to mess around with Max devices to get Push to send MIDI CCs from its encoders (with meaningful labels on screen) that it finally clicked: these guys don't give a shit about people sequencing external hardware.
listentoaheartbeat
Panason wrote:
Automation being disabled because you made a manual change, forcing you to go to session view to re-enable it...


The function is called "Back to Arrangement", just press F10. Or use the context menu to enable automation for a single parameter.

Quote:
Follow song turning itself off...


This is an old bug that got fixed in Live 10.

Quote:
No instrument definitions for MIDI gear so that you can name the MIDI CCs you edit.


Indeed not possible in the Clip View, however it is fairly easy to create a control device with M4L that gives you custom naming for all CCs and the corresponding automation. There are actually tons of devices like this available online. Not only gives you custom naming but also total recall for your external MIDI device.

Quote:
Pencil when you want pointer. No right click to select pointer or pencil.....


Press b to toggle between the two.

Quote:
Trying to move the view around when editing clips and zooming because you moved the mouse a little along the vertical axis.


Not sure what this is about, but zooming has been vastly improved in Live 10, in is a super fluent workflow now.

Quote:
No vertical line in the arrangement when you want to line up clip start & end points.


There are vertical lines for lining up clips.

Quote:
No way to precisely edit automation other than moving a line with the mouse.


In Live 10, you can move lines, breakpoints, and selections, both horizontally and vertically.

Quote:
Fucking breakpoints. Even at max zoom getting the exact value you want takes forever....


Holding Shift allows for fine adjustments.

Quote:
Inserting program changes into the arrangement requires going to session view and creating a clip, then dragging it back into the arrangement....


No. Command + Shift + B in Arrangement View, or even quicker, since Live 10: double-click.

Quote:
It's a damn mess.


No, it's not. You simply lack basic understanding of the software.

Quote:
When I used Live to make tracks using only samples I thought the mixer sounded lacking like you say.


It sounds the same like any other DAW, and you can test that easily by bouncing and subtracting audio files from another.

Quote:
But it's clear to me that Live is not designed for MIDI sequencing but for working with sample loops (that Ableton want to sell you). MIDI functionality is tacked on, and badly.


It is much more focused in terms of MIDI functionality than some of the dinosaurs in the field, but if you reduce it to sample loops you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote:
It was when I realised I had to mess around with Max devices to get Push to send MIDI CCs from its encoders (with meaningful labels on screen) that it finally clicked: these guys don't give a shit about people sequencing external hardware.


Live even provides automatic delay compensation for external hardware that works perfectly. And if you cannot appreciate how much you can actually benefit from M4L for integrating external MIDI equipment, you are just being lazy.
pottering
OP, I think you are missing some Live concepts:

1. Clips are independent of each other, Clips in Session and Arrangement are completely different and separate things, even if they look the same.

2. In Live a track can only play one Clip at a time.

3. Session View has preference over Arrangement in playback.

So if you play a Clip in Session View, it will stop a Clip in Arrangement.

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/live-concepts/#4-4-tracks
pottering
Also, you should understand the difference between "Remote Control" and "normal" MIDI in Live.

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/midi-and-key-remote-control/

"MIDI keys that become part of remote control assignments can no longer be used as input for MIDI tracks. "

Basically, once an encoder has special options using remote scripts (like most Push functionality), that takes over the "normal" MIDI.

It is like all the buttons and knobs are already assigned to something (well, they are).

For going back to "normal" MIDI CC you need to disable the Control Surface script in preferences.
Nelson Baboon
ecstaticquiet wrote:
Sounds like you're used to Logic! I'm an Ableton user, and find the MIDI programming pretty user friendly - just need to know a few keyboard short cuts - like B for moving between pencil and pointer smile

Logic midi programming drives me insane! I hate the tool menu, and the zooming technique is annoying.

Sorry for your pain - different strokes I guess smile


Logic Midi is an abomination, and it is what totally got me out of Logic. What you cannot do in Logic is, in the Arrange window, choose a specific midi input for a track, and then direct it out to a midi output. So, if you like to play around with multiple midi streams, it is a nightmare to work within Logic. You can set this stuff in the Environment, but then it is not visible to you in the Arrange window. as far as I know, all other DAWs offer you the ability, per track, to choose a specific midi source for the input to a track. Live makes this easy, but then for stuff like MPE, it is an utter pain.
Panason
listentoaheartbeat wrote:


No, it's not. You simply lack basic understanding of the software.

...

but if you reduce it to sample loops you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

And if you cannot appreciate how much you can actually benefit from M4L for integrating external MIDI equipment, you are just being lazy.


No Mr Ableton fanboy. I simply find that the software's design sucks for MIDI sequencing, and don't want to go looking for poorly documented M4L devices that produce automation on yet another layer and do not show up on Push in a useful way, which means I then have to assign the M4L knobs to Macro knobs... This is BS and there is not a word about it in Live's user guide last time I looked.

Cubase had better MIDI functionality 20 years ago and Bitwig pisses all over Live for working with MIDI automation/modulations.
HighLordFixer
Eye learned using Master Trax on se/30 & ProTools on nubus macs...
anything that is basic "relative" works for me
Cubase Nuendo Logic LMMS Reaper Acid
even FL is better
Ableton is clusterfuck Nightmare from my perspective
used it for one project
then told myself
never install that again
despise it for even the most basic midi sequencing
would rather use hardware midi sequencer & hard disk recorder
or tape 4 track
than waste time screwing around using live
your multitrack daw actually will define/influence your output
could turn on my 300mhz upgraded powermac 8100av and get more accomplished
listentoaheartbeat
Panason wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:


No, it's not. You simply lack basic understanding of the software.

...

but if you reduce it to sample loops you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

And if you cannot appreciate how much you can actually benefit from M4L for integrating external MIDI equipment, you are just being lazy.


No Mr Ableton fanboy. I simply find that the software's design sucks for MIDI sequencing, and don't want to go looking for poorly documented M4L devices that produce automation on yet another layer and do not show up on Push in a useful way, which means I then have to assign the M4L knobs to Macro knobs... This is BS and there is not a word about it in Live's user guide last time I looked.

Cubase had better MIDI functionality 20 years ago and Bitwig pisses all over Live for working with MIDI automation/modulations.


Max has arguably the best (in-app) documentation in the field, and building a M4L device for external CC control with automatic mapping to Push and host chunk saving of your controls is hardly more time consuming than setting up a device in Logic's environment. Your rants are unwarranted for, all the overlooked functions I pointed out above speak volumes.
HighLordFixer
whatever works for you....
Eye must just be too lazy & dumb for programming custom midi tools...
for using in Ableton
in your guesstimation
or too stupid for something so Max... whatever that is
gives me the Jitters
midicc/sysex...
whazat???
HighLordFixer
whatever works for you
it's not working for him
we all have our own "preferences"
HighLordFixer
most of the battle is finding methods that personally works for you the best
listentoaheartbeat
It is totally fine if it does not work for him, but blaming the software while making false statements and spreading misinformation is lame.
HighLordFixer
have my own experiences and reason that avoid Ableton live the black plague...
yet that's me
what works great for one person doesn't always work for another
could make something that will handle advanced midiCC for Ableton...
yet someone should just keep drilling suggestions/hints at Ableton
if that's a standard complaint
honestly my experience with Ableton is Archaic
& it wasn't good
congrats you have better rapport with it as DAW
Nelson Baboon
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
It is totally fine if it does not work for him, but blaming the software while making false statements and spreading misinformation is lame.


software doesn't have feelings. If a particular application doesn't work for me, I feel fine in blaming the software. Same with hardware. Hardware ate my dog.

I've complained about both hardware and software, and had people then explain the contortions I could go through to make it work. But that's the entire point sometimes - you don't want to go through that shit. The one that annoys me the most sometimes is when a complaint is made about the sound of a synth, people will go on about how you can get to that kind of sound if you spend the rest of your life programming it in this particular way, etc, as if the experience is unimportant.

I admittedly gave up on Live when I encountered various obstacles that presumably I could have gotten around with lots of effort. But why should I spend all the effort when other applications don't require it? The last straw was trying to set up mpe to work. Way too much trouble when other DAWs do it in their sleep.
HighLordFixer
most of the time eye just want a digital tape machine with midi sequencer functions that supports VST...
is that super complicated?
not like need SMPTE track stripped to tape
for sync
at the moment
yet when eye do...
that's a job for the JL Cooper PPS-100!
this post sponsored by:

now send me some free gear for testing:)
learning curve time sink is something that avoid in DAW...
press record then edit/mix
not poke around searching where functions are hidden
if they are even part of the program
most of the time making things for increasing my creative workflow speed
yet that's me
eye also don't dig Audacity yet will use it sometimes when required for some reason
it just doesn't feel like SoundDesignerII for me
when most other basic 2 track editors do
listentoaheartbeat
Nelson Baboon wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
It is totally fine if it does not work for him, but blaming the software while making false statements and spreading misinformation is lame.


software doesn't have feelings. If a particular application doesn't work for me, I feel fine in blaming the software. Same with hardware. Hardware ate my dog.


OP ignored basic functionality and claimed it was not there. Missed learning experience on their end, but that‘s not my concern. It is the misinformation that rubs me the wrong way. Anyway, made my point, posted some information. Done here.
HighLordFixer
get what you are saying...
maybe we can help him find another option
no big stress
droningsphagettimonster
Panason wrote:
Thanks for the tips. I'll upgrade to Live 10 asap but I think I'll try Bitwig for my next project.


you'll not regret that. thumbs up
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Software Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Page 1 of 2
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group